No one told me that....

[KASALAPIC]

what do you wish you had known before starting OD school? Share your stories!!

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[KHE]

what do you wish you had known before starting OD school? Share your stories!!

If you are referring to questions specifically about school, I can't say that there is anything I wish I had known about the school or the program before hand:

If you are talking about the profession, the answers are:

1) Medican Insurnace Plan access
2) The extent to which optometry as a whole is NOT integrated into the health care delivery team. (In part, because of number 1.)

 

[rodomon]

Well, I've only been in school a few weeks, so I don't have the hindsight of many of the posters here, but here are a few thoughts, mostly dealing with deciding which school to go to.

1. It's not as easy to get away from bad professors as it was in undergrad, so ask any current students you see about the profs. If there are more than a few teachers who think their classes are important to the exclusion of others and you should spend 4 hours per day studying for just their class, especially if it's in something like molecular biology rather than optometric practices, be wary. You only have so many hours in a week, and you want to spend them studying and practicing what will be most useful when you get out. The school should focus on making you a great optometrist, not seeing if you know where all the muscles in the feet attach. You want profs who will make learning fun and applicable, not miserable.

2. Look for schools that have a lot of volunteer work available. It will get you out and and doing things similar what you're actually training to do. You can only practice on your classmates / friends / family so much before you have their parameters memorized, so the more chances you have to see other patients the better.

3. Along those same lines, getting into clinic earlier will probably also be helpful.

4. Look for schools that emphasize practice management. This could be both in class and also in a student organization. All schools do a fairly similar job at teaching you how to be an optometrist, but there's probably more variation in how much they teach you how to run a business. Plus, since most optometrists are biology majors, the science part comes more naturally, whereas they're often completely ignorant on the business side.

5. Plan ahead. Know which state(s) you'll want to practice in and watch the laws and regulations there. As KHE said, getting on medical plans is extremely important (from what I've heard on this board and from other practicing optometrists), as is which procedures and drugs you can and can't perform/prescribe. You don't want to graduate and then realize the city/county/state you had planned to work in limits you legally so badly you have to work at Dairy Queen to supplement your income. If you want to be on the forefront of medical practices in optometry, you don't want to practice in a state that limits you to spinning dials. Perhaps investigate non-extradition countries to get out of the loans, too.

I'm sure I can think of more, but I've gotta go eat and study.

 

[IndianaOD]

1. That there is a massive oversupply of optometrists.

2. That almost half your classmates will sell out YOUR profession and go commercial.

3. If your in it for the money with the same amount of school go into dentistry.

 

[rodomon]

1. That there is a massive oversupply of optometrists.

Naw. Remember all professionals (i.e., jobs which require a professional degree) are extremely restrictive because only a set number of students enter the work force each year. So there is actually a massive undersupply. A free market would allow many more ODs, MDs, JDs, DDSs, etc each year. Massive oversupply would mean ODs wouldn't ever be able to pay off their school loans. It's pure insanity to suggest that a sector is oversupplied when pretty much everyone in it makes over $50,000 per year and many make over $100,000 a year while most Americans bring in around $30,000 or so.

2. That almost half your classmates will sell out YOUR profession and go commercial.

Some say "sell out," some say "don't want to deal with running their own business." Remember, different people value different things. Most importantly, "the profession of optometry" shouldn't be your main focus in life; giving your patients what they want and need should be. Often they go hand-in-hand, but not always. Poor people without insurance don't deserve eye examinations, right? Let their kids go blind, too; that's what they deserve for spending $500 on food rather than the honor of being in your presence and buying your store's designer glasses. How dare they not pay me what I'm "worth" (remember, your worth is determined my how much money you can squeeze out of other people, not petty, simplistic values like having fulfilling relationships with family and friends).

3. If your in it for the money with the same amount of school go into dentistry.

I think I'd agree with this one, although most of my classmates knew it, too. But teeth are so, um, bleh.

Everybody on this forum is so extreme. Depending on who you ask, optometrists either make $10,000 per year or $1,000,000, but nothing in between. We should all get together and have a picnic or something to lighten up a bit (of course, we'd have to forbid even mentioning corporate optometry, especially if we had forks and knives lying around).

 

[eyestrain]

So as long as we're making at least $50,000, there's no oversupply? Remember, most of those Americans making $30,000 didn't even go to college, let alone professional school.

 

[eyestrain]

Most importantly, "the profession of optometry" shouldn't be your main focus in life; giving your patients what they want and need should be.

Hard to give them what they want and need when you're doing 10 minutes exams for $29. And most of the patients at those places only WANT a refraction and could care less about what they NEED.

 

[vsarge0708]

what do you wish you had known before starting OD school? Share your stories!!

No one told me that I would taste my patient's lunch everytime I perform direct ophthalmoscopy.

 

[KHE]

Naw. Remember all professionals (i.e., jobs which require a professional degree) are extremely restrictive because only a set number of students enter the work force each year. So there is actually a massive undersupply. A free market would allow many more ODs, MDs, JDs, DDSs, etc each year. Massive oversupply would mean ODs wouldn't ever be able to pay off their school loans. It's pure insanity to suggest that a sector is oversupplied when pretty much everyone in it makes over $50,000 per year and many make over $100,000 a year while most Americans bring in around $30,000 or so.

This posting is what borders on insanity. Just because "most Americans" make around $30000, and most ODs make "more than that" is not a sign of optometric undersupply. "Most Americans" don't have 8-9 and in some cases more years of post secondary education and also haven't passed an unGodly number of tests and examinations to be granted a license. Your argument about "free markets" allowing more MDs and ODs is weak at best. It is true that those professions are basically "restricted monopolies" but society has determined that they are all learned professions and require a certain amount of education so we don't just throw open the doors to anyone who wants to be a neurosurgeon just because there isn't a neurosurgeon on every corner. If we train 5 neurosurgeons who each do 100 neurosurgeries during their residency (500 total cases) then your logic follows that we should train 500 neurosurgeons with one case each and that will solve the undersupply in neurosurgery because now we will have 500 new neurosurgeons instead of just 5.

The same thing applies in schools of optometry. (or any profession that requires licensure) If studies show that an optometrist needs 1000 patient encounters as part of their training to be a reasonably proficient optometrist (I don't know what the actual number is) and we train 100 ODs this way and they make $100k per year, you are content to have them make 1/3 of that but lets have see 1/3 the number of patients but let us triple enrollment.

That's lunacy.

Some say "sell out," some say "don't want to deal with running their own business." Remember, different people value different things. Most importantly, "the profession of optometry" shouldn't be your main focus in life; giving your patients what they want and need should be. Often they go hand-in-hand, but not always. Poor people without insurance don't deserve eye examinations, right? Let their kids go blind, too; that's what they deserve for spending $500 on food rather than the honor of being in your presence and buying your store's designer glasses. How dare they not pay me what I'm "worth" (remember, your worth is determined my how much money you can squeeze out of other people, not petty, simplistic values like having fulfilling relationships with family and friends).

There are plenty of professional opportunities available for doctors who don't want to run a business but don't involve working next to the bed sheets and the motor oil under the direction of a non-licensed "district manager."

Your insinuation about the poor not deserving eye care or vision correction is horribly misguided. I have never once turned away a patient for lack of payment and I have never once denied a patient who truly needed eyewear. I've easily given away over a quarter million dollars in services and materials in my 7 years in this business.

Everybody on this forum is so extreme. Depending on who you ask, optometrists either make $10,000 per year or $1,000,000, but nothing in between. We should all get together and have a picnic or something to lighten up a bit (of course, we'd have to forbid even mentioning corporate optometry, especially if we had forks and knives lying around).

I make somewhere in between $10,000 and $1,000,000.

There is an oversupply of ODs in virtually all parts of the country for this very reason, which I have repeated on this forum and others many times before.

No matter where you are in the country you can get a non-emergent optometric examination within 2 days and within a one hour drive and most optometrists proudly advertise in the yellow pages "WALK INS WELCOME." Contrast that with virtually any provider of any other type of health care and you will find yourself waiting weeks for a non-emergent office visit, sometimes months.

 

[r_salis]

1. It's not as easy to get away from bad professors as it was in undergrad, so ask any current students you see about the profs. If there are more than a few teachers who think their classes are important to the exclusion of others and you should spend 4 hours per day studying for just their class, especially if it's in something like molecular biology rather than optometric practices, be wary. You only have so many hours in a week, and you want to spend them studying and practicing what will be most useful when you get out. The school should focus on making you a great optometrist, not seeing if you know where all the muscles in the feet attach. You want profs who will make learning fun and applicable, not miserable.

Yeah, good luck with that. There's a prima donna course instructor at every optometry school who thinks the world revolves around his/her class.

 

[KHE]

I wanted to make one other comment about oversupply....

Another sign of optometric oversupply is that the quality of applicants to schools has been decreasing. To be sure, the top students in optometry school are superb students and would be competitive for admission to any graduate or professional progam that they want.

But we have a significant number of people with sub-3.0 GPAs gaining admission to schools and to me, that is not acceptable. I know that there is going to be some people who rise up to the defense of those folks but the reason you are seeing these sub-par applicants gaining admission is that word is starting to get out that optometry is becoming less and less desireable as a profession for a whole host of factors and this is affecting the applicant pool. That hardly screams "undersupply" of optometrists to me.

 

[longlashes]

..

 

[paremyd]

Nobody told me that the AOA is a big bureacracy which takes my dues and does nothing to protect me from oversupply.

Nobody told me that the AOA does not take a position to recommend yearly exams.

Nobody told me that the AOA does not help me practice within my training by helping to get Any Willing Provider legislation passed. It is sad when you learn to treat eye diseases in school, but are relegated to being a refractionist because patients don't want to pay out of pocket and you won't get paid by insurance plans to treat eye diseases.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

Nobody told me that the AOA is a big bureacracy which takes my dues and does nothing to protect me from oversupply.

Nobody told me that the AOA does not take a position to recommend yearly exams.

Nobody told me that the AOA does not help me practice within my training by helping to get Any Willing Provider legislation passed. It is sad when you learn to treat eye diseases in school, but are relegated to being a refractionist because patients don't want to pay out of pocket and you won't get paid by insurance plans to treat eye diseases.

I don't know if I can ever bring myself to pay the AOA any dues for some of the reasons listed above. The AOA has done good things in the past, but recently I've seen little in the organization.

Nobody ever told me that every person will believe that vision plan insurance is not the same as medical eye insurance. Pt balking, "My vision insurance says I have a $10.00 copay for an eye exam." Umm yes sir, but that was before you starting stuffing yourself at McDonald's everyday and gave yourself Type II diabetes, and now your eye exam is considered medical every year.

Nobody ever told me that almost 60-70% of new grads will probably end up working corporate out of school. (just a rough estimate out of the air)

I never knew that people would neglect or could care less about eye examinations. Q: "How often do you get your eyes examined? Resp: avg 2-3 yrs, some 5yrs, some never." Q: "How often do you go to your dentist. Resp every 6 months to once a year (lot more frequently answered).

Q: What do you value more, your teeth or losing your eyesight: D**n near always 100% say eyesight. (not to say great teeth are not important). Some of this is also commercialization advertising effects. Oral B or crest toothpaste or whatever are always talking about health effects for using a product. Eyeglasses are just advertised as a 2 for $99 special, and hardly ever about protecting eyes from UV, or reasons to visit an OD.

 

[IndianaOD]

I just about when the student(?) thought there wasn't an oversupply of ODs. Go see when the next available appointment is with local dentists, podiatrists, and dermatologists. You will get 3 weeks if you are lucky. Now call some ODs. I'm betting on around 1 day.

Try living on 50k a year with 150k in loans to pay off. Not to mention you will want to start a family because you've spend 8+ years in school after Joe Shmoe got his factory job and now makes 45k a year.

Oh you also have to pay for your own medical insurance. At least $5k a year.

 

[rodomon]

There is an oversupply of ODs in virtually all parts of the country for this very reason

There are millions of small rural towns you could practice in with absolutely no competition. These towns also need medical doctors, dentists, and other professionals because the nearest town with these professionals is hours away and the nearest town with the facilities to take care of major complications can be up to 5+ hours away. With such a small patient base, it would be nearly impossible for you to make a living practicing optometry exclusively, but that doesn't change the fact that these people need your services, and therefore it is impossible to have an oversupply of MDs, ODs, DDSs, etc. You only think there is an oversupply because it decreases your income below what you believe you are "owed" and are unwilling to practice in a region where you will earn less than that. Or think of the millions of people in 3rd world countries who would benefit from your services, people who also are unable to pay you what you are "worth." They need services ODs can provide and are unable to receive them, and therefore there is no oversupply. Oversupply in certain areas you might prefer to practice in? Obviously. Oversupply in the nation / world as a whole? Not even close.

And you turn away patients every day who need your services indirectly by having higher prices than they can afford. You don't even have the opportunity to turn them away directly because they never step foot in your office.

Bah, why do so many decent threads get turned towards this drivel. Well, I might as well go argue the exact same religious/political point that I've already argued for 100 times on some other forum too keep constant. Sorry to derail the argument into this mess. As penance, here are a few more thoughts relevant to the original post:

1. You don't need all the "required" books in the syllabi. If you're a bio major, you should already know this from undergrad. A histology atlas is invaluable, as are a few others, but most of the books won't provide that much more info above and beyond class notes.

2. Get involved in a lot of the student orgs for the networking opportunities, especially looking for future employers / partners. Don't wait until the spring semester of your fourth year to start looking for jobs.

Oh, and yeah, I'm a student. I grew up in a rural area, too, so that's probably a large part of my bias. There were literally hundreds of towns that could have used medical services, but nobody was willing to practice there because they couldn't make "enough" money. I'm a big fan of intermediate-level care providers because of this; the only people that would ever go to these towns would be nurse practitioners. Were they as thorough as an MD? No. Were they better than nothing? Yes.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

There are millions of small rural towns you could practice in with absolutely no competition. These towns also need medical doctors, dentists, and other professionals because the nearest town with these professionals is hours away and the nearest town with the facilities to take care of major complications can be up to 5+ hours away. With such a small patient base, it would be nearly impossible for you to make a living practicing optometry exclusively, but that doesn't change the fact that these people need your services, and therefore it is impossible to have an oversupply of MDs, ODs, DDSs, etc. You only think there is an oversupply because it decreases your income below what you believe you are "owed" and are unwilling to practice in a region where you will earn less than that. Or think of the millions of people in 3rd world countries who would benefit from your services, people who also are unable to pay you what you are "worth." They need services ODs can provide and are unable to receive them, and therefore there is no oversupply. Oversupply in certain areas you might prefer to practice in? Obviously. Oversupply in the nation / world as a whole? Not even close.

And you turn away patients every day who need your services indirectly by having higher prices than they can afford. You don't even have the opportunity to turn them away directly because they never step foot in your office.


Try setting up your practice in a rural community of even 3-5k people with the next nearest town 20 to 30 miles away. You will starve. People do not change glasses every year, and if your around farmers better luck to ya (changing once every 5-10 years swearing gotta have glass photograys). People do not possess high incomes a lot of times to even pay for a lot of medical eye services. Good luck if you send them to collection agencies, as that'll get around the town pretty quick also. Small towns are nice places but will only require a doctor to practice 2-4 days a week.

Working while in school is a great advantage over other students. You really keep well focused and manage time very efficiently. Also, every penny you can save is one less to borrow on those loans.

Never take as much as your offered in student loans nowadays unless you need it. Live in need, not want. I took out as much as I could as a student. But the interest was so low (unlike today), i just invested whatever extra money I had each year into a Roth IRA.

 

[eyestrain]

There are millions of small rural towns you could practice in with absolutely no competition. These towns also need medical doctors, dentists, and other professionals because the nearest town with these professionals is hours away and the nearest town with the facilities to take care of major complications can be up to 5+ hours away. With such a small patient base, it would be nearly impossible for you to make a living practicing optometry exclusively, but that doesn't change the fact that these people need your services, and therefore it is impossible to have an oversupply of MDs, ODs, DDSs, etc. You only think there is an oversupply because it decreases your income below what you believe you are "owed" and are unwilling to practice in a region where you will earn less than that. Or think of the millions of people in 3rd world countries who would benefit from your services, people who also are unable to pay you what you are "worth." They need services ODs can provide and are unable to receive them, and therefore there is no oversupply. Oversupply in certain areas you might prefer to practice in? Obviously. Oversupply in the nation / world as a whole? Not even close.

So basically until every tiny village and town in the nation has an OD, there's no oversupply? The insanity of your post is almost too much to comprehend.

 

[KHE]

There are millions of small rural towns you could practice in with absolutely no competition. These towns also need medical doctors, dentists, and other professionals because the nearest town with these professionals is hours away and the nearest town with the facilities to take care of major complications can be up to 5+ hours away. With such a small patient base, it would be nearly impossible for you to make a living practicing optometry exclusively, but that doesn't change the fact that these people need your services, and therefore it is impossible to have an oversupply of MDs, ODs, DDSs, etc. You only think there is an oversupply because it decreases your income below what you believe you are "owed" and are unwilling to practice in a region where you will earn less than that. Or think of the millions of people in 3rd world countries who would benefit from your services, people who also are unable to pay you what you are "worth." They need services ODs can provide and are unable to receive them, and therefore there is no oversupply. Oversupply in certain areas you might prefer to practice in? Obviously. Oversupply in the nation / world as a whole? Not even close.

The fact that there is not an optometrist in every tiny town in every corner of ever state in no way shape or form means that these people are underserved. Many people live in extremely rural areas like that because they WANT to. Having to drive 1/2 hour or an hour for services is part of that and they accept it. Conversely, many people choose to live in large cities because they WANT to and like being able to have everything within a one block walk. By your own admission, I wouldn't be able to make a living practicing optometry in these areas so tell me again why any OD wants to settle there? What do you suggest....practice optometry 3 days a week and work at Dunkin Donuts for the other two?

But again....please tell me any part of the country where you can't get a non-emergent optometric appointment within 2 days and within an hours drive. You can't, because it doesn't exist.

And you turn away patients every day who need your services indirectly by having higher prices than they can afford. You don't even have the opportunity to turn them away directly because they never step foot in your office.

Untrue. I take care of anyone who phones me up or walks in my door regardless of whether they can pay or not. My fees are high because I we have a nice office, with state of the art technology and a highly trained staff. You seem to think that every doctor is like me and they're not. If patients want inexpensive optometric care, they can get eye exams at a whole host of places in virtually every corner of the country for $29.00 - $49.00. And again, most of these places are in commercial type practices that almost ALWAYS accept same day appointments. So if you can get a same day non-emergent optometric examination for $49.00, does that sound like undersupply to you?

 

[xmattODx]

Or think of the millions of people in 3rd world countries who would benefit from your services, people who also are unable to pay you what you are "worth." They need services ODs can provide and are unable to receive them, and therefore there is no oversupply. Oversupply in certain areas you might prefer to practice in? Obviously. Oversupply in the nation / world as a whole? Not even close.

1. Developing countries. Third world is so passe.
2. Thank you for recognizing that there is a desperate need for mid-level providers in developing countries. It is true. So true, in fact, that uncorrected Refractive Error is a major cause of blindness and low vision simply because folks are unable to access care.
3. Becoming an optometrist probably won't allow you to serve most of these people. Optometry doesn't exist in most of the world. So if your goal as an optometrist is to pick up the slack in the global under supply of primary eye care you may want to look for additional training. Like an MPH.
4. There is oversupply in the US. Hence my working in a mall.

 

[still_confused]

stay away from this forum as not to get brainwashed

 

[WannabeOD083]

No one told me that I would taste my patient's lunch everytime I perform direct ophthalmoscopy.

Nice...real nice

 

[gochi]

stay away from this forum as not to get brainwashed

No one is getting brainwashed...this is just the harsh truth. Things are only gonna get worse, until eventually, Optometry wont be considerd a health profession.
Come'on, we have doc's giving eye'exams for 20 bucks, in a setting which is obviously not proffesional....sad.

 

[daysend85]

There is an oversupply in optometry, students sell out to commercial practice? Back these statements up with facts, instead of opinions and then maybe they will be taken more seriously. All of the OD's I have shadowed (in all different practice settings) have said that there is NOT an oversupply. They also did not claim that there was an undersupply. I asked them that question precisely because the overwhelming opinion on this forum says that there is an oversupply. I guess I will just say that I'll believe it when I see it. I'm only a student now, and I'm not going to let naysayers take away my interest in going into this career. Students sell out to commercial practice? Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because they can't afford starting up a practice? I plan on going into commercial practice for that exact reason. I have to make money to create a successful private practice. I refuse to go into more and more and more debt and at the same time, lack previous experience in a private practice setting right after I leave optometry school. I do not come from a family of doctors, nor do I come from a rich family. So please, give me and other fellow optometry students in my position a break.

 

[Ryan_eyeball]

There is an oversupply in optometry, students sell out to commercial practice? Back these statements up with facts, instead of opinions and then maybe they will be taken more seriously. All of the OD's I have shadowed (in all different practice settings) have said that there is NOT an oversupply. They also did not claim that there was an undersupply. I asked them that question precisely because the overwhelming opinion on this forum says that there is an oversupply. I guess I will just say that I'll believe it when I see it. I'm only a student now, and I'm not going to let naysayers take away my interest in going into this career. Students sell out to commercial practice? Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because they can't afford starting up a practice? I plan on going into commercial practice for that exact reason. I have to make money to create a successful private practice. I refuse to go into more and more and more debt and at the same time, lack previous experience in a private practice setting right after I leave optometry school. I do not come from a family of doctors, nor do I come from a rich family. So please, give me and other fellow optometry students in my position a break.

LOL no oversupply? Re-read several of KHE's posts about picking up a telephone and trying to get an eye exam within a day or two. Its NOT that difficult at all, unlike a medical visit or dental cleaning/visit. Do you see dentists working Saturdays? or even Friday's? OD's have to work Monday-Saturday, and sometimes evening hours just to be marketable to get patients.

Optometry is a great profession that I love doing my job. Its just the state of Optometry that I don't like. Have interest in your career, and be excited about it, but don't turn your back or be blind to realize that you're jumping in a saturated pool.

 

[still_confused]

my mom's cardiologist works on saturdays all day, must be an over supply.

optometry no longer consider a health profession? lets look back, when were we consider a healthcare profession? was it when we werent DPA or TPA certifed? when we couldnt use any drugs? if anything, we are becoming more like health professionals.

only thing unprofessional is bashing your own profession. how many dentist do you see doing that?

 

[KHE]

There is an oversupply in optometry, students sell out to commercial practice? Back these statements up with facts, instead of opinions and then maybe they will be taken more seriously. All of the OD's I have shadowed (in all different practice settings) have said that there is NOT an oversupply. They also did not claim that there was an undersupply. I asked them that question precisely because the overwhelming opinion on this forum says that there is an oversupply. I guess I will just say that I'll believe it when I see it.

Ahhh, yes. The "doubting Thomas." Let me be clear on this "oversupply" issue.....

1) You will never starve
2) You will not default on your student loans
3) You will not eat out of a dumpster
4) You will not live out of your car.

You will always be able to find a "job." However, will you be able to find a "career?"

Facts about oversupply? How about reading the AOA manpower study that the AOA themselves commissioned that stated that there is in fact an oversupply of eye care providers in this country. Is that fact enough for you? Want to try something anecdotal? I have no idea where you live, but if you are an optometry student I'm going to assume that it is in a place that is very close to one of the schools or colleges of optometry. I have a homework assignment for you:

Tomorrow is Sunday. Phone up some eye doctors in the yellow pages and see how many places will take you as a walk-in tomorrow for a non emergency eye exam? I would bet at least 5. If that doesn't scream over-supply, I don't know what else does.

I'm only a student now, and I'm not going to let naysayers take away my interest in going into this career. Students sell out to commercial practice? Gee, I wonder why? Maybe because they can't afford starting up a practice? I plan on going into commercial practice for that exact reason. I have to make money to create a successful private practice. I refuse to go into more and more and more debt and at the same time, lack previous experience in a private practice setting right after I leave optometry school. I do not come from a family of doctors, nor do I come from a rich family. So please, give me and other fellow optometry students in my position a break.

You are afraid to open a practice when you graduate because you lack experience in a private practice. And your solution to that problem is.....to work commercial? Am I missing something here? Working commercial for a "few years" to "save money" is almost always a sure fire ticket to an eternity in commercial practice. Trust me on this one my friend.....avoid it. Start planning for a career as an OWNER in a private practice NOW while you are in school and as God as my witness, you can make it happen within 6 months of graduating.

 

[KHE]

my mom's cardiologist works on saturdays all day, must be an over supply.

optometry no longer consider a health profession? lets look back, when were we consider a healthcare profession? was it when we werent DPA or TPA certifed? when we couldnt use any drugs? if anything, we are becoming more like health professionals.

only thing unprofessional is bashing your own profession. how many dentist do you see doing that?

The fact that one does it does not indicate oversupply. There is no doubt that a cardiologist working Saturdays is the exception, not the rule. Contrast that with optometry and it is the rule rather than the exception.

On Monday, I"m going to phone some local cardiologists in the area and ask for a Saturday appointment. I'll let you know how many actually offer me one and how many laugh their arses off at me.

 

[still_confused]

The fact that one does it does not indicate oversupply. There is no doubt that a cardiologist working Saturdays is the exception, not the rule. Contrast that with optometry and it is the rule rather than the exception.

On Monday, I"m going to phone some local cardiologists in the area and ask for a Saturday appointment. I'll let you know how many actually offer me one and how many laugh their arses off at me.

its not that i dont deny that there is an oversupply but the constant harping is getting hilarious. im sitting here imagining balding and grumpy optometrist shaking their heads at new grads as they put down the profession while they are retting their patients (make a mental picture of that, its pretty funny).

and how does planning ahead of graduation allow me to get enough money to buy a practice the second i get my diploma? while you may be comfortable with more loans, most sane people would rather have some money of their own to work with instead of signing yet another 200k loan.

for the record, my mom's cardiologist ONLY works fri, sat, mon or special appointments. he is too rich for his own good and semi retired.

BOTTOM LINE IS: i wish there was less complaining and more suggestions on what can be done about it, what are YOUR plans to fix oversupply? all that experience by these doctors who knows all the aspects of the business (no sarcasm intended),

 

[KHE]

its not that i dont deny that there is an oversupply but the constant harping is getting hilarious. im sitting here imagining balding and grumpy optometrist shaking their heads at new grads as they put down the profession while they are retting their patients (make a mental picture of that, its pretty funny).

I don't harp on that issue nearly as much as I do the insurance discrimination, because it is my baby after all and hey...old habits die hard.

and how does planning ahead of graduation allow me to get enough money to buy a practice the second i get my diploma? while you may be comfortable with more loans, most sane people would rather have some money of their own to work with instead of signing yet another 200k loan.

There is virtually no way for you to have enough money to start a practice when you graduate. There are however many financing options availabe to you that do not involve traditional bank/SBA lending. In fact, I would say that traditional banks are about the WORST possible avenues to take when seeking practice financing. And again....while it may be daunting to look at your student loan bill the day you graduate, the issue is NOT the volume of the debt you have. The issue is "do you have the cashflow to pay off your debts." If the answer is YES, then you have no problems. As I sit here right now, I am close to a MILLION dollars in debt between my practice and my house loan. I took out a loan of more than $500k for the practice. However, the income I make from that practice is WAY MORE than enough to pay off the practice loan, pay off my mortgage and live very comfortable. And once the practice loan is paid off (6 years) it will just be a whole bunch more thousands in my pocket every month. So the issue isn't debt load....it's cash flow. FInd a situation that provides adequate cash flow and you're golden. (BTW: You won't find in any optometric position that involves the words "crafters" or "mart"

BOTTOM LINE IS: i wish there was less complaining and more suggestions on what can be done about it, what are YOUR plans to fix oversupply? all that experience by these doctors who knows all the aspects of the business (no sarcasm intended),

If there is an oversupply of something the only solution is to stop producing so much of it. Schools should be reducing enrollment and no new schools should be opening. There really isn't any other way.

 

[still_confused]

yes, cash flow is great, but many of us are not brave like you and do not want to go down a million. i dont see anything wrong with working a few years to get our feet wet. if i remember correctly, you just recently started your own practice and seem to be doing just fine. why cant we follow in your footsteps?


and yes closing schools reducing numbers is obvious, but what can i do about that? if you doctors do as good as a job discouraging the school boards and the AOA as discouraging the pre opt students here, we will be golden.


and to take it a step further, with all this whining that optometry is doomed, is it really wise to start your own practice? shouldnt the game plan be get as much money while you can before optometry sinks to oblivion?

 

[Oogilily]

So, how do you get that cash flow when you open a new practice? I want to jump in and own my own practice from graduation. I don't want to do this just because of KHE's advice, but also from the advice of many ODs in my area. But, I want to make it. There's just not enough info around on how to do that. I know WHAT I need to do but not HOW I need to do it. Where can you go to find out information on how insurance works and how to get on their boards? Where do you go to find out the laws that govern optometry in your state so I know my scope of practice as an OD? How the heck do you learn how to run a business (i.e. taxes, different kinds of small businesses, managing employees)? I know they don't teach this much in school, so how do you learn it? That's what I want to know. I don't know how to plan for the future when I don't know how to get the information I need.

I'm happy that there are many ODs that have great private practices. But, I think it seems like such a daunting task for entering students (like me) that they just don't know where to start or how to make a good private practices.

 

[IndianaOD]

There would be MUCH more quality private practice opportunities if young grads weren't the ones making the commercial joints millions. If all the money wasn't being sucked out of the eyecare market by mindless corporations, there would be much more to hire young docs and pay them a decent salary. If you are keeping all the money instead of giving away 2/3 of it, you can see less patients and still make a good living. All the while helping reduce the oversupply problem.

You can argue all you want, but facts are facts. Wal-mart et al. are NOT professional locations. People that know they have real eye problems do go to wal-mart. They go to private practices and OMDs.

Proof is from the patients. A lot of them are ashamed to admit they last went to a commercial joint. They usually say "I learned my lesson."

You could be the best and brightest OD out there, but if you are acting as a refraction jockey day in and day out you WILL loose your diagnostic skills.

A recent poll from VSP showed that over 94% of first year OD students wanted to go into private practice. Less than half of them ended up that way a couple years out. If that doesn't spell oversupply what does?

 

[KHE]

yes, cash flow is great, but many of us are not brave like you and do not want to go down a million. i dont see anything wrong with working a few years to get our feet wet. if i remember correctly, you just recently started your own practice and seem to be doing just fine. why cant we follow in your footsteps?

I'm not any more brave than any of you are out there. You say you don't want to go down a million, but would you be willing to do it if your annual income was $300k, $400k, $500k or more? Probably. You're right....I only bought my practice fairly recently. But I regret very much that I didn't do it sooner. My reason for not was centered 90% around insurance discrimination and once I got that set aside I was in like a dirty shirt. That's why I carry on and on and on and on on here....for those of you who ARE able to get onto insurance plans, private practice ownership is within your reach regardless of how much debt load you have. For those of you who can't get onto insurance plans, you should move somewhere else. For those of you who don't want to move somewhere else, I think you should find another career because I think you are going to be miserable.....just as I was.

and yes closing schools reducing numbers is obvious, but what can i do about that? if you doctors do as good as a job discouraging the school boards and the AOA as discouraging the pre opt students here, we will be golden.

and to take it a step further, with all this whining that optometry is doomed, is it really wise to start your own practice? shouldnt the game plan be get as much money while you can before optometry sinks to oblivion?

Optometry will die only if optometry lets it. It is optometry who has the power...it is optometry who has the licenses. Yet it is optometry who is content to let huge corporations make the huge money while we scrounge around for the crumbs left over. If we keep going down that road....then yeah. Optometry is going to end up like pharmacy. But I have enough faith in the next generation. The next generation just has to have enough faith in THEMSELVES to understand that they CAN DO IT and that IT IS WITHIN THEIR REACH.

 

[KHE]

So, how do you get that cash flow when you open a new practice? I want to jump in and own my own practice from graduation. I don't want to do this just because of KHE's advice, but also from the advice of many ODs in my area. But, I want to make it. There's just not enough info around on how to do that. I know WHAT I need to do but not HOW I need to do it. Where can you go to find out information on how insurance works and how to get on their boards? Where do you go to find out the laws that govern optometry in your state so I know my scope of practice as an OD? How the heck do you learn how to run a business (i.e. taxes, different kinds of small businesses, managing employees)? I know they don't teach this much in school, so how do you learn it? That's what I want to know. I don't know how to plan for the future when I don't know how to get the information I need.

I'm happy that there are many ODs that have great private practices. But, I think it seems like such a daunting task for entering students (like me) that they just don't know where to start or how to make a good private practices.

The number one thing that you absolutely need to do is set aside the fear that you seem to have. Nervousness is fine....fear is deadly. Do you think Bill Gates knew how to run a business when he built his first computer in his garage?

Too many students think that you need to have a Harvard MBA to succeed in any kind of "business" and that's not true. Too many students also think that if you go into business, that you must run it absolutely perfectly and that if you make even the TINIEST mistake that your business will go down in a big heap of flaming wreckage and you will be destined for a life time of financial ruination. That is also NOT true. So set your fears aside.....

1) Virtially every state board in the union has a website that outlines scope of practice and procedureal regulations. Feel free to visit them. You can start with the ARBO website here.... www.arbo.org

2) Taxes, different kinds of business etc. etc. State with "Small Business for Dummies" to give you a decent overview and then phone up an accountant to help you narrow down the best choice for YOUR personal financial situation and what your business goals are.

3) Managing employees....I'm not sure what you mean by that but if you are asking "How do I find the right employees for my office" there are literally THOUSANDS of books at Barnes and Noble that will help you with that.

4) Regarding insurances....if you have a location in mind where you want to practice, find out what the top 5 MEDICAL plans are in that area. You can usually get this information from the local chamber of commerce or the state insurance commissioner. Then phone up those plans and ask if they are credentially new optometrists onto their plan. If 4 out of 5 are, you're golden. If less than 4 out of 5 are, proceed with extreme caution.

The last part of your post where you commented about not knowing where to start is completely understandable. But there isn't really any one specific starting point. I would encourage you to "just start somewhere" and you will find that you become more and more knowledgable over time and you'll be miles and miles ahead of your classmates who don't take that step. Don't sit there and think "well, I'll learn about that later, or I'll just work for someone for a few years and learn from them." That's not good because you can never be sure that they will give you the information that you need.

Just start somwhere....you can PM me if you wish or continue to post publicly.

 

[still_confused]

The next generation just has to have enough faith in THEMSELVES to understand that they CAN DO IT and that IT IS WITHIN THEIR REACH.

i hear what you are saying that buying/starting a private practice is the best thing to do not only professionally but financially in the the long run as well. but what i have a problem is that the second a student says he/she wants to work commercial for one or two years to pay some bills they are greeted with scathing posts about sellouts. if it is part of their plan to work commercial on the way to private practice, i say so be it. as long as they follow out the plan and dont stay forever then their actions should be applauded, not put down. everyone knows the best planning and preparation is good up until its time to put them in place.


and as for your above quote, this is why i say this forum is actually bad for students. most people come here infrequently and are immediately bombarded with negative posts and rarely see your more thought out ones. so in their minds optometry is dead. why bother, and to be fair, there are some that went into optometry after shadowing commerical docs AND WANT TO DO THAT. its a mode of practice that was advertised when we were researching the profession, cut them some slack.

thanks to you i actually do have semi-plan in place and it involves no corporate work time. but others have their own plans and some do involve going corporate.

 

[Elfego Baca]

Everything KHE said on his posts in this thread is true. The post about the uselessness of the AOA -- also absolutely true. It's run by clueless old geezers who are busy defending optometry from whatever was threatening it 25 years ago, while charging outrageous monthly dues.

 

[KHE]

i hear what you are saying that buying/starting a private practice is the best thing to do not only professionally but financially in the the long run as well. but what i have a problem is that the second a student says he/she wants to work commercial for one or two years to pay some bills they are greeted with scathing posts about sellouts. if it is part of their plan to work commercial on the way to private practice, i say so be it. as long as they follow out the plan and dont stay forever then their actions should be applauded, not put down. everyone knows the best planning and preparation is good up until its time to put them in place. .

I for one don't view commercial doctors as sellouts. However, I do see commerical practice as a threat to the future of optometry and I KNOW that more than 95% of people entering optometry school have dreams of owning their own practice one day. As such, I think that there are very VERY few reasons why anyone should ever work commerical.

The notion of "working for a few years" and then starting or buying a practice is INCREDIBLY dangerous. Looking back on my classmates, and observing my cohorts, I would say that more than 75% of people who enter the corporate world spend 3X more time there than they thought they would. They enter it thinking "I'll pay down debt for a few years and then open a practice" but it almost never happens. In fact, most of the time people end up MORE in debt because they buy a house, a car, get married, maybe have a kid or two and then as the financial responsibilities of adulthood really start to weigh down on them, they don't make the jump or they make the jump years and years after they thought they would.

I'm here to tell you you do NOT have to work commercial!

IMHO, the only times it is acceptable to work commercial are:

1) You move to a completely strange part of the country and you want to get the lay of the land before opening an office
2) You are waiting for a spouse to finish school. eg: Your wife has one more year of graduate school left and then you are moving to somewhere else.

Working commercial as a means to "save up money" is almost always a recipe for disaster.

 

[Oogilily]

KHE,

Thanks for the advice! That at least gives me a place to start. I'm nervous to open my own practice, as I should be. But, now at least I have a place to start learning a little more about business.

As for working commercial for a few years. I had an OD tell me that if he had to do it all over again he would just go straight into private. He said that you could work 4 years or so in commercial and save up some money. But, he said the problem with that is that you just lost four years in your private practice. He said 4 years would be enough time to get established and start making ok money (not 100,000) but enough to get the cash flow. So if I went straight into private practice I could use that 4 years to build up the practice and get ahead instead of just using it to save money. He said that the first year or two were VERY hard and he really had to scrap for money, but he also said that it will make it if you give it time. Sound advice to me.

 

[KHE]

KHE,

Thanks for the advice! That at least gives me a place to start. I'm nervous to open my own practice, as I should be. But, now at least I have a place to start learning a little more about business.

As for working commercial for a few years. I had an OD tell me that if he had to do it all over again he would just go straight into private. He said that you could work 4 years or so in commercial and save up some money. But, he said the problem with that is that you just lost four years in your private practice. He said 4 years would be enough time to get established and start making ok money (not 100,000) but enough to get the cash flow. So if I went straight into private practice I could use that 4 years to build up the practice and get ahead instead of just using it to save money. He said that the first year or two were VERY hard and he really had to scrap for money, but he also said that it will make it if you give it time. Sound advice to me.

Don't forget that starting a practice isn't the only choice. There are a number of publications out there that advertise practices for sale. These are businesses that are already up and running and will provide you with income right off the bat. To be sure, it is not easy to find a practice that is worth buying because many of them having asking prices far in excess of what they are truly worth. Sorting out the diamonds in the rough from the real duds can be challenging.

Also, if you start a practice, you don't have to scrape for money. You build a salary for yourself INTO the loan you take out. Obviously, you can't budget a $100000 salary but you can easily budget one for $35-$40k INTO the loan.

Be not afraid students.....you CAN do this. I know you want to.

 

[gochi]

Don't forget that starting a practice isn't the only choice. There are a number of publications out there that advertise practices for sale. These are businesses that are already up and running and will provide you with income right off the bat. To be sure, it is not easy to find a practice that is worth buying because many of them having asking prices far in excess of what they are truly worth. Sorting out the diamonds in the rough from the real duds can be challenging.

Also, if you start a practice, you don't have to scrape for money. You build a salary for yourself INTO the loan you take out. Obviously, you can't budget a $100000 salary but you can easily budget one for $35-$40k INTO the loan.

Be not afraid students.....you CAN do this. I know you want to.

KHE, you are the BEST!!!

 

[longlashes]

..

 

[JeffChou]

I wanted to make one other comment about oversupply....

Another sign of optometric oversupply is that the quality of applicants to schools has been decreasing. To be sure, the top students in optometry school are superb students and would be competitive for admission to any graduate or professional progam that they want.

But we have a significant number of people with sub-3.0 GPAs gaining admission to schools and to me, that is not acceptable. I know that there is going to be some people who rise up to the defense of those folks but the reason you are seeing these sub-par applicants gaining admission is that word is starting to get out that optometry is becoming less and less desireable as a profession for a whole host of factors and this is affecting the applicant pool. That hardly screams "undersupply" of optometrists to me.

Respectfully,
I think the trend is in the opposite direction. When the college representatives visited our college, many of them said that the applicant pools are getting better and better. Just this past year, a couple of schools I called said that this last applicationt pool was one of the most competitive they've had. While there are a few sub 3.0 students slipping by yearly, I doubt they are degrading the profession any appreciable amount. I'm sure in your personal experience there has nary been an incident where you witnessed the abasement of optometry attributable to someone you know to have less than a 3.0 undergraduate GPA. There are certainly extrordinary circumstances surrounding those that do get in, and GPA does not tell the whole story.

Jeff

 

[longlashes]

..

 

[Daurang]

Longlashes is correct. I'm in dentistry and it is extraordinarily more stressful though I only work 30 hours a week with only 8 patients a day. Your day is much cleaner, easier, less stressful doing a couple refractions and then selling your $4 glasses for $500. I'm thinking of retiring and opening an optical shop. It is always greener on the other side.

 

[still_confused]

asks the school to show you the avg gpa and oat, i know my school does and it seems to be moving upward

 

[daysend85]

LOL no oversupply? Re-read several of KHE's posts about picking up a telephone and trying to get an eye exam within a day or two. Its NOT that difficult at all, unlike a medical visit or dental cleaning/visit. Do you see dentists working Saturdays? or even Friday's? OD's have to work Monday-Saturday, and sometimes evening hours just to be marketable to get patients.

Optometry is a great profession that I love doing my job. Its just the state of Optometry that I don't like. Have interest in your career, and be excited about it, but don't turn your back or be blind to realize that you're jumping in a saturated pool.

Okay so I guess I didn't mean "oversupply," but I know some folks on this forum have commented that it's difficult to get a job which simply isn't true. I'm from a rural area and see a perfect opportunity to open up a practice. But it's more complicated than that. I've been told that it just takes luck to land the job you want and that luck will come around. So I guess I'm just more optimistic than some others. I'm not worried as of yet about this oversupply. Do I disagree that schools should start to limit the entering class number? Absolutely not. Do I sit here and wonder sometimes how some people were accepted to my school? Absolutely! The thing is I have no control over such things, and I can't worry about issues like that. I chose the career because I wanted it. I think its great that patients can get appointments when they want them...that's good accessibility for ya. The question is are optometrist's salaries being driven down by this oversupply? I was told today during a lecture at my school that salaries are rising, more so than other health professions. Survey results were presented indicating that grads were happy with their standard of living and with their salary. It sounds good to me. Oh, and btw, one of the private optometrists I shadowed works Monday thru Thursday morning and afternoon and she is doing quite well. No evening hours, no Fridays, and no weekends. So it exists. I can't say this about other medical areas, but I can usually get a PCP appointment within a day or two, and I don't think that's abnormal.

 

[docwatson]

I'm here to tell you you do NOT have to work commercial!

Working commercial as a means to "save up money" is almost always a recipe for disaster.

It's called "sacrifice". I can't blame docs for wanting to get their lives together after school since most have had 8 years of schooling, but to have to sacrifice again for the sake of having a private practice given that most people graduate with large student loans, is very, very difficult. But you know, that's life, and I had a very difficult road to owning my practice. It's been 3 1/2 years now (practiced for 8) and I love it. Wish I would have done this earlier but that's okay. I've patterned my life so that I don't have any regrets. Everything is a learning experience.

I took a different route and maybe it's going to come down to this for most people nowadays given that OD school is fast becoming unaffordable. I was an electrical engineer for 5 years (masters degree) prior to going to optometry school at age 29. So I saved up as an engineer, turned in my two week notice, went to a state school (UHCO), and limited my loans to a manageable level. Yes, I worked for a year in commercial optometry and it was a disaster. I am not corporate material and that's why I left IBM and I should have known after joining $%^@%@%! Wal-Mart. Yeah, I got fired but who cares? The little troll store manager was just too much for my patience to take. I let him have it.

We moved to 4 states all over the country after this. I came within minutes of buying a large practice in Georgia after working with is a-hole for two years and then he pulled out at the closing table. Yeah, I could have pursued this legally but it would have hindered our lives too much. Once again, no regrets and we moved on. So I looked for a practice in 28 states, looked at least 100 profiles, visited at least a dozen personally (Colorado, Texas, Virginia, Illinois, etc.), and we ended up buying a large practice in Connecticut. Personally, I think docs should buy large practices but that's my own opinion.

Hey, we went through hell but we are reaping the benefits now. I think we deserve everything we have now. I was 38, am 41 now, and FINALLY, my life is good now.

I really don't know what the solution is, but working commercial isn't it. Going to an inexpensive state school helps, i.e. in-state, low tuition rates, and SACRIFICING your lifestyle also helps. Also, make sure you have a perfect credit report as well. You can't get a decent loan if you have a bunch of red marks on your credit report!

Like KHE says... It can be done. I had no help from anyone except for the few student loans I took out. AND I PAID THEM OFF A COUPLE OF MONTHS AGO!

Look at me now... I have a million dollar practice...

 

[KASALAPIC]

a patient calls me today to reschedule an appointment, stating to me she cant make it tomorrow because she has to stay home and wait for the cable guy. I instantly thought of this thread and what everyone has been saying about oversupply. Its just sad that its harder to book an appointment with a cable guy then an OD.

 

[eyestrain]

Longlashes is correct. I'm in dentistry and it is extraordinarily more stressful though I only work 30 hours a week with only 8 patients a day. Your day is much cleaner, easier, less stressful doing a couple refractions and then selling your $4 glasses for $500. I'm thinking of retiring and opening an optical shop. It is always greener on the other side.

I'm so friggin' sick of posts like this. Unless you have worked as both an optometrist AND a dentist, shut the hell up.