Non-Trad Looking for Advice!

[diamondscarx]

I posted this on the premed subreddit with little (no) response, so I thought I would look for advice here. I appreciate any feedback you could give me.

This is going to be a little long, though I'll try to keep it as brief as possible and give you what I know up front. MCAT 2/3: 515 (132/129/128/126). Undergraduate in engineering (cGPA ~2.5), MBA (cGPA 3.0), prereqs (42 hours, cGPA 4.0). I'm in my early-mid 30s and recently married.

A couple of years ago my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died shortly thereafter. I took advantage of my work from home job to be with him as much as possible at chemo appointments, hospital visits, etc. Family members (some of whom are doctors) and other doctors encouraged me to pursue medicine as they noticed my interest and proclivity in the course of his treatment. (They were also aware of how much I hated my then current job.) I spent the next few semesters taking pre-req classes while managing his estate and helping to manage his business.

All that being said, I know I'm behind the 8-ball on grades. My initial collegiate performance was a massive **** up that almost saw me kicked out. By the end of undergrad I was on the dean's list for the final 2 semesters. My performance in my MBA was more consistent but not without issues. Thankfully, I'm older and wiser now and have far fewer distractions and an extremely supportive wife.

I've shadowed a DO in a family practice several times and with many doctors in a radiology practice. I've sat in on brain surgery, heart bypasses, a birth, and quite a few radiology procedures. I have no volunteering because I have bills to pay and have to travel fairly regularly for familial obligations.

Right now I'm very interested in vascular surgery and interventional radiology. I realize that is a competitive field so I want to do everything I can to maximize my education and my odds of getting a good residency. Do I have a shot of going to an MD school, or should I focus on DO alone due to grade replacement and lower requirements? Also, I realize my psych/soc score is not as good as my other scores, so I'm willing to take that again if better consistency will help.

I think that's just about everything, but I'll be happy to answer questions as they arise. I know I've given a lot of information here so if you recognize this story, just message me on the side to let me know.

Thanks for reading and for any advice

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[thatwouldbeanarchy]

MCAT score is good. What's your science GPA? Your undergrad GPA is obviously very low but I think it'll probably work in your favor that that was years ago, particularly if you've shown improvement in recent science coursework.

 

[diamondscarx]

Currently I couldn't tell you what exactly my sGPA is except that 1) My engineering degree covered a lot of science (and several repeats) that I'm not sure how it would be counted by MD or DO apps, 2) my MBA contained no science credits, and 3) My recent pre-reqs were, as far as I can remember, all science courses, most of which I hadn't taken before like Bio, OChem, etc.

My transcripts are currently being compiled on AACOMAS so I'll probably know in a few days what my sGPA is.

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

If you do end up applying MD, AMCAS will combine all of your undergraduate level coursework (including prereqs you took after completing your bachelor's) to calculate your cGPA and sGPA. They'll calculate your graduate GPA separately, which generally doesn't have too much bearing on med school acceptance. I know less about how AACOMAS calculates since I haven't applied DO.

Just my personal opinion, but I think it can't hurt to apply broadly to a mix of MD and DO programs. Your MCAT is definitely strong enough for some MD programs. But GPA will be a factor as well.

 

[diamondscarx]

Thank you for the responses, I appreciate it. I realize that my GPA will probably fall below the cutoffs for some schools and my AMCAS GPA would likely be lower than my DO GPA due to lack of grade replacement. In regards to that, would an even better MCAT score help? This was my first time taking it so I think I could probably bump it up a few points, maybe even 520 or so if I took it again in a few months.

Thanks again for responding!

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

Personally, I would not retake a 515. Even if you get a higher score, some MD schools will average multiple scores (while others may focus on the most recent attempt) so it's unlikely to make a significant difference. Also, many of the adcoms on here have said that they have unfavorable opinions of applicants who retake perfectly good scores because it shows poor judgment. Always better to take it once and get a solid score, which you've done! And worst case scenario, if you retake and get the same score or lower, you'll be in an even worse position than you are now.

I say apply with the app you have, warts and all. Just be thoughtful about your school list. Use MSAR to select MD schools based on GPA/MCAT, throw in a few reach schools that you really love, and apply DO. State residence matters, too. @Goro gives great advice about school choices and can probably speak more to whether MD or DO is best for you.

 

[diamondscarx]

I think you're right. I think I mostly wanted a better score for a little bit of pride, but it's good to know that it's not always favorably viewed or particularly helpful. Thanks again for the insights!

 

[Goro]

Your fastest path to being a doctor is via grade replacement and going DO. I think that you've got some much GPA damage that MD is out of the question, unless you ace an SMP in a linkage program.

Stop thinking about specialties until you get into med school. But be aware that if you're a DO, the odds are on you being in Primary Care.

I posted this on the premed subreddit with little (no) response, so I thought I would look for advice here. I appreciate any feedback you could give me.

This is going to be a little long, though I'll try to keep it as brief as possible and give you what I know up front. MCAT 2/3: 515 (132/129/128/126). Undergraduate in engineering (cGPA ~2.5), MBA (cGPA 3.0), prereqs (42 hours, cGPA 4.0). I'm in my early-mid 30s and recently married.

A couple of years ago my dad was diagnosed with terminal cancer and died shortly thereafter. I took advantage of my work from home job to be with him as much as possible at chemo appointments, hospital visits, etc. Family members (some of whom are doctors) and other doctors encouraged me to pursue medicine as they noticed my interest and proclivity in the course of his treatment. (They were also aware of how much I hated my then current job.) I spent the next few semesters taking pre-req classes while managing his estate and helping to manage his business.

All that being said, I know I'm behind the 8-ball on grades. My initial collegiate performance was a massive **** up that almost saw me kicked out. By the end of undergrad I was on the dean's list for the final 2 semesters. My performance in my MBA was more consistent but not without issues. Thankfully, I'm older and wiser now and have far fewer distractions and an extremely supportive wife.

I've shadowed a DO in a family practice several times and with many doctors in a radiology practice. I've sat in on brain surgery, heart bypasses, a birth, and quite a few radiology procedures. I have no volunteering because I have bills to pay and have to travel fairly regularly for familial obligations.

Right now I'm very interested in vascular surgery and interventional radiology. I realize that is a competitive field so I want to do everything I can to maximize my education and my odds of getting a good residency. Do I have a shot of going to an MD school, or should I focus on DO alone due to grade replacement and lower requirements? Also, I realize my psych/soc score is not as good as my other scores, so I'm willing to take that again if better consistency will help.

I think that's just about everything, but I'll be happy to answer questions as they arise. I know I've given a lot of information here so if you recognize this story, just message me on the side to let me know.

Thanks for reading and for any advice

 

[diamondscarx]

Thank you for the response, Goro. Although it's not the news I want to hear, I know there's definitely a good amount of truth to it and that going to an MD school would be an uphill battle. I can also understand the specialty comment in that I shouldn't choose until I have a lot more experience in med school. I will say that PC is absolutely out for me as that's not the kind of medicine I want to practice.

 

[diamondscarx]

I did some calculations this morning based on bottom line numbers from my transcripts. My cGPA from undergrad combined with my cGPA from my pre-reqs would give me an overal cGPA of 2.82. If you include my MBA in those numbers it rises to 2.86. Perhaps not as hopeless as I thought? And yes, with a DO school the grades would be even higher due to grade replacement.

The interesting part is that another 36 hours of classes with all A's could boost me up to a 3.0 cGPA, though that would take me probably 3 semesters to accomplish. If I applied MD while working towards a 3.0, would I be able to update my application after the deadline for submission?

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

I suggest you read through some of the low GPA threads on here. I'm not going to say it's impossible because there are definitely people on this site who've been accepted to MD programs with GPAs around yours. But that doesn't mean it's common or likely. The average GPA for MD matriculants is ~3.7.

Again, there are other factors to consider here, including your sGPA, state of residence, race/ethnicity, EC's (which will probably be mostly your job and shadowing since you're a career changer), etc.

You can use these tables for reference, too: https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/applicantmatriculant/157998/factstablea24.html
They show acceptance rates based on GPA, MCAT, and race/ethnicity. If you're white, you historically have about a 23% chance of MD acceptance with a 2.8 GPA and an MCAT that is roughly equivalent to a 33/34. Those chances increase to 42%, if you're Hispanic/Latino, and 73%, if you're Black/African-American but are lower if you're Asian (21%).

MD may be possible but your chances will definitely be greater with DO grade replacement. It's also not impossible to specialize as a DO... But it may very well be harder depending on the specialty. I would encourage you either way to keep a very open mind about your future specialty. Even if you get accepted to an MD program, there's still no guarantee you'd match into a competitive specialty. It's worth asking yourself if you'd be happy being a doctor, if vascular surgery and IR were off the table. If the answer is no, maybe medicine isn't the right choice.

And to answer your question, no, you can't really meaningfully update your GPA once you've submitted your application. You can send each school updates throughout the process but it won't change your AMCAS GPA calculation and an update of: "Hey, I got an A in XYZ class" probably isn't very substantive. My guess is that what matters most is the GPA that's documented when you initially submit.

 

[diamondscarx]

Thank you so much for all that information. You're really very helpful and comprehensive. That chart really shows me that improving my cGPA modestly at this point would not greatly increase my chances. It would be a non-trivial amount of time and money, so it looks like it's probably not worth it.

To answer your question about specialties: No, my heart isn't set on doing those things. Right now I think they're very interesting but I could easily see doing several other things both competitive and not competitive. I enjoy medicine from a therapeutic and scientific standpoint, so I'm fairly confident that my passion is in the right place to be successful. The only thing I can definitely say is that I don't really like primary care, but if I got to the end of my education and that was my only option I wouldn't turn it down. And who knows, it could grow on me along the way.

I've looked at the match rates for AOA and NRMP, and certainly the AOA has fewer opportunities for non-primary care residencies. However, it looks like about 40+% of DOs do a non-AOA residency. The difficulty with that is that NRMP groups people into "MD" and "Everyone else", which doesn't account for variations between Caribbean, IMG, etc. Obviously, you know this, but I'd like to think that DOs are increasingly more comparable to MDs than the others in terms of match rates. I'd also like to think that things will continue to improve as a result of the AOA/ACGME accreditation merger.

Anyway, thank you again for all the information. You've been a really big help and I hope you won't mind replying a few more times if I have questions!

 

[thatwouldbeanarchy]

No problem! Happy to help. Best of luck!

 

[diamondscarx]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I just wanted to give an update. I have been accepted to a very good SMP program that begins in the fall. I'm going to use this opportunity to show that I've got what it takes so I can get into a good school and keep all options open.

Thank you all again for the information, it was truly helpful.

 

[DrMikeP]

Apologies for resurrecting an old thread, but I just wanted to give an update. I have been accepted to a very good SMP program that begins in the fall. I'm going to use this opportunity to show that I've got what it takes so I can get into a good school and keep all options open.

Thank you all again for the information, it was truly helpful.

I always like updates!

Whatever you do, make darn near straight A's in the SMP. They unlike DO grade replacement are not known for repeat chances and many a student has given up a good shot a becoming a physician (DO included) by scoring poorly in an SMP, which for some schools can mean making below a 3.7.

So best of luck to you and glad you at least have been given a shot to get a shot at what you want.

 

[Crayola227]

Thank you for the response, Goro. Although it's not the news I want to hear, I know there's definitely a good amount of truth to it and that going to an MD school would be an uphill battle. I can also understand the specialty comment in that I shouldn't choose until I have a lot more experience in med school. I will say that PC is absolutely out for me as that's not the kind of medicine I want to practice.

My advice for any applicant is DO NOT go to med school if there's no way you can see yourself in primary care. Even if you love psych, even if you are Jesus Christ's son and expect to match to neurosurgery.
The reason is that you could match your love and then something goes wrong in your residency where now you need to go the FM path.

Medicine is a grind and life and your career totally unpredictable.

Given that you likely need to go DO, I hope that you realize this and can make peace with it. IMO signing up for an MD/DO and not being somewhat satisfied with ending up as a PCP, tells me you don't love patients or basic health topics enough to be a doctor, or at minimum you're taking a huge chance of being miserable.

You'd be better off as a PA or RN as they can switch fields more easily.

 

[diamondscarx]

I always like updates!

Whatever you do, make darn near straight A's in the SMP. They unlike DO grade replacement are not known for repeat chances and many a student has given up a good shot a becoming a physician (DO included) by scoring poorly in an SMP, which for some schools can mean making below a 3.7.

So best of luck to you and glad you at least have been given a shot to get a shot at what you want.

Thank you for the advice and well wishes! Yes, I intend to destroy my classes and really put my best foot forward for applications. The great thing is that these courses will really give me a leg up on my first year of med school.

Thanks again, and good luck with your med school this fall!

 

[DocJanItor]

I hope everyone is doing well. This is the OP, but I had to make a new account d/t losing my authenticator. Won't be making that mistake again.

Anyway, I'd just like to report that I crushed the SMP and I'm now admitted to a top 50 MD school. I appreciate all the advice that was given, and I'm really looking forward to continuing my medical education. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice!

 

[DocAyo]

Congrats on being accepted to a top 50 medical school! Your dedication and tenacity paid off BIGLY! Please advise on the SMP you attended as I'm in a similar situation . Good luck with led school.

QUOTE="DocJanItor, post: 19006082, member: 856327"]I hope everyone is doing well. This is the OP, but I had to make a new account d/t losing my authenticator. Won't be making that mistake again.

Anyway, I'd just like to report that I crushed the SMP and I'm now admitted to a top 50 MD school. I appreciate all the advice that was given, and I'm really looking forward to continuing my medical education. Thank you to everyone who gave me advice![/QUOT