Non-Trad med school with 4 daughters now Intensivist. AMA

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NontradICUdoc

Why so Serious?????
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It has been some time since I posted here, but I was a little busy completing my residency in internal medicine, a fellowship in critical care, and getting board certified in both Internal Medicine and Critical Care. I used to be very active both here and Old Pre Meds. I went from a really poor UG to getting a Masters in Biology to Medical School. It took me 15 years all while having a young family.

I have been through working while studying for the MCAT, making special budgets while in medical school, surviving residency and fellowship, and finally suffering with Doctoritis once I started working as an attending.

Remember, this is a marathon and not a sprint. And the studying never ends.

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When did you have your kids in the process? I’m studying for the MCAT and getting ready to apply this coming cycle and I already have two kids... sometimes I think I’m crazy


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What's the family situation like? What are the hard parts of being in this profession with a family from your perspective, and how accepting are your kids of your profession? Were your kids around before you started med school?
 
When did you have your kids in the process? I’m studying for the MCAT and getting ready to apply this coming cycle and I already have two kids... sometimes I think I’m crazy


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I already had 2 children when started the application process. You have to remember that life does not stop simply because one wants to be a doctor and applies to medical school. By the time I was accepted and started medical school I had 3. My 4th was born just before my 4th year of medical school.
 
I'm curious if it's possible to have time for a young family during an IM residency. I like the idea of IM but not enough to lose touch with my kids for 3 years.

It is possible to have time. You have to just prioritize your time off. For example, when you have off, usually on the weekends or vacation time you spend that time with your family as well as yourself. Make plans ahead of time to do an activity (family outing) so that you know that the time is budgeted and then when you get back you can resume reading or preparing for the next day. You cannot spend your entire time worrying about medicine, it is not healthy for your mind and leads to burnout.
 
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What's the family situation like? What are the hard parts of being in this profession with a family from your perspective, and how accepting are your kids of your profession? Were your kids around before you started med school?

The family situation is fine. Of course, there are stressful times especially before boards. With my schedule, when I am asked what days I cannot work, I go over with my wife absolute days that I must have off. This includes family vacations. We have taken several since completing training. I look at the school calendar to see what days I need to be where. For example, for BAck to school night, I went to work an hour early and left an hour early.

Right now, my oldest is 17 and a senior in high school, so I have been the one taking her to college visits. I post my work schedule on my google calendar and she finds the dates that I am not working and tells me about the open houses. And if my schedule is not up, I add that day as an absolute cannot work.

Just like any other profession, you make it work. Of course, the days that I am working and am on call, I cannot be too far from the hospital and we do things locally. My kids are very accepting, at dinner when the phone rings or in the car when I get a call from the hospital they all quiet down so I can hear what the nurses are asking. In fact, they all want to come to the ICU and spend the day with me. The oldest two already have.

My three oldest were born before medical school started and the 4th was born right before my 4th year.
 
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Thank you for taking the time to do this!

I'm a new hospitalist who is planning to apply to Heme/Onc fellowship next year. As someone on the other end of the training pipeline, can you tell us more about "doctoritis?"
 
Thank you for taking the time to do this!

I'm a new hospitalist who is planning to apply to Heme/Onc fellowship next year. As someone on the other end of the training pipeline, can you tell us more about "doctoritis?"


Since you could remember, you spent your time studying to get into medical school. During this time, you were low on cash because not only did you have to support your family but you needed to pay for your education. Meanwhile your friends are getting raises, bonuses, going on trips, getting new cars, etc. Now you go through medical school. Now you are really on a financial diet. since you are living off of loans, you are being very meticulous with your spending. Especially since as a non trad, you are aware of whatever you borrow, you need to pay back WITH INTEREST.

Now your friends are getting bigger houses, fancier cars, better vacations, and you are seeing all of this on social media.

You get to residency, you are working around 80 hours a week making what amounts of $5/hour. You put your loans on deferment. If you are not in the hospital or clinic, you are studying for boards or you are catching up on your sleep. You try to schedule family vacations but your salary is still quite on the low side.

It has been 4 years of college, 4 years of post bacc, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency and now you are an attending. You receive an offer and take the offer to be an Internist in Each Chipip with an annual salary of $220,000. You get your first paycheck and your eyes bug out of your head: $13,000 AFTER taxes.

Time to celebrate as the diet is over. Fancy dinner with the spouse and children twice a week, time for the BMW I have been eyeing. We are going to Miami for two weeks (flying first class and staying at the Ritz Carlton). Buying new furniture for the new 3000 sq ft house you just bought with a physician loan (does exist). Check your balance at the end of the month (since you only get paid once a month), $200 with 10 left until pay day.

doctoritis.
 
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I was not sure which ama was the most appropriate to ask this but here goes.

Were the priorities in your life that motivated you to go to med school still relevant after going through the entire journey. This journey is so long and I find that as we mature, the things that may have been important to me or the things I thought I wanted out of life 5 or 10 years ago are different from today. I wonder would I feel different 10 years from now as an already nontrad.

Did you struggle to keep the same fire in the belly for medicine as some of the younger cohorts who don't have kids or this was their first career.

Were there issues of disrespect from your superiors that you felt comfortable enough to address without ruining your path. Some nontraditional students find it harder to bite their tongue being talked to in a certain way than others.

Lastly what was the biggest challenge for you through it all.

Thanks in advance.
 
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I was not sure which ama was the most appropriate to ask this but here goes.

Were the priorities in your life that motivated you to go to med school still relevant after going through the entire journey. This journey is so long and I find that as we mature, the things that may have been important to me or the things I thought I wanted out of life 5 or 10 years ago are different from today. I wonder would I feel different 10 years from now as an already nontrad.

Did you struggle to keep the same fire in the belly for medicine as some of the younger cohorts who don't have kids or this was their first career.

Were there issues of disrespect from your superiors that you felt comfortable enough to address without ruining your path. Some nontraditional students find it harder to bite their tongue being talked to in a certain way than others.

Lastly what was the biggest challenge for you through it all.

Thanks in advance.

I love what i do. I have always wanted to practice medicine and that still drives me to this day. What got me through medical school was that I am putting my family through all of this struggle and all of this debt, I owe them to see it through. And now that I have, I love what I do. When I started medical school, I thought I would want to go into Emergency Medicine (Hense the screen name. I was an EMT and wanted to become an ER doc). However, when I did a rotation in the ICU, things changed and my focus changed. In fact, the fire in my belly to get into a good residency program and then into fellowship is what kept me going. You need to tailor your goals for each step in the process.

The good thing about being an older non traditional student is that I did not care what my younger cohorts thought. I was already married so I had no one to impress. I did not care if they thought me a geek, a nerd, ugly, handsome, it did not matter. My focus was on medical school. In fact, because of that I did not get involved in any of the drama that they were involved in. Or any of the issues. I had goals in mind that I wanted to achieve outside of the classroom. That included leadership in at least one club, be a part of the admissions committee, make a name for myself, and because I was focused on that and not the bull**** of the younger students I achieved all of the above.

Did I get honors in many classes, no. Was that OK. Absolutely.

With regards to my superiors, actually I found that they had more respect for me than my younger cohorts. For starters, we were close in age so I was closer to being a colleague than just a student. Because I had a family they knew that I was serious about my work and if there was an issue with my grades I would go to them for help and focus. When I became a resident, I was treated very well because again, I took my job seriously. In fact, because I already had workplace experience, I knew how to navigate workplace politics and I never had a bad repoire with nursing or any of the ancillary staff. They never complained about me because if I needed something and I saw that they were busy (such as an ECG), I would do it myself. Because I was not petty. In addition, my mentor knew that I could take the criticism better and worked me harder to prepare me for fellowship. Even when I made a mistake, because I knew I should own up to it (I was told by my younger fellow residents to not do that), I earned the respect of the surgical attendings.

Being an older student is an advantage in my opinion. You have better focus, are not petty, are driven, and know how to navigate the politics of a workplace.

My biggest challenge through it all was not getting jealous of my friends who were making money, getting new cars, taking trips, etc. Eventually, it worked out for me. Now the challenge is getting out of debt.
 
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How old were you when you started medical school? I'm 28 and will be starting medical school in August. I don't necessarily feel "too old" but I do worry about the amount of debt I'll be taking on and how long I'll spend paying it off. I'm finishing up my Master's now and also have a family of my own. At the moment I have no worries with how I will manage and prioritize my time during medical school (of course this may change once I start school). Having to work full time while studying for the MCAT, and now commute 2 hours to class has made me extremely focused. Medicine is my goal but I also would love to expand my family sooner than later. Would it be unrealistic to plan for another baby at the end of my M1 year (May 2019)? I would have the summer to recover and have the baby on a schedule by the start of my M2 year.
 
Since you could remember, you spent your time studying to get into medical school. During this time, you were low on cash because not only did you have to support your family but you needed to pay for your education. Meanwhile your friends are getting raises, bonuses, going on trips, getting new cars, etc. Now you go through medical school. Now you are really on a financial diet. since you are living off of loans, you are being very meticulous with your spending. Especially since as a non trad, you are aware of whatever you borrow, you need to pay back WITH INTEREST.

Now your friends are getting bigger houses, fancier cars, better vacations, and you are seeing all of this on social media.

You get to residency, you are working around 80 hours a week making what amounts of $5/hour. You put your loans on deferment. If you are not in the hospital or clinic, you are studying for boards or you are catching up on your sleep. You try to schedule family vacations but your salary is still quite on the low side.

It has been 4 years of college, 4 years of post bacc, 4 years of medical school, 3 years of residency and now you are an attending. You receive an offer and take the offer to be an Internist in Each Chipip with an annual salary of $220,000. You get your first paycheck and your eyes bug out of your head: $13,000 AFTER taxes.

Time to celebrate as the diet is over. Fancy dinner with the spouse and children twice a week, time for the BMW I have been eyeing. We are going to Miami for two weeks (flying first class and staying at the Ritz Carlton). Buying new furniture for the new 3000 sq ft house you just bought with a physician loan (does exist). Check your balance at the end of the month (since you only get paid once a month), $200 with 10 left until pay day.

doctoritis.
Not to hijack your thread but had a good laugh with my wife out of this after swearing this will be the last winter for shoveling our cars out of snow. I still got a little over 5 months left till the end of 'diet' but we literally signed a contract to build a new 3000 sqft house with that physician loan. Probably a bad financial move but can't help with this 'doctoritis'.

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How old were you when you started medical school? I'm 28 and will be starting medical school in August. I don't necessarily feel "too old" but I do worry about the amount of debt I'll be taking on and how long I'll spend paying it off. I'm finishing up my Master's now and also have a family of my own. At the moment I have no worries with how I will manage and prioritize my time during medical school (of course this may change once I start school). Having to work full time while studying for the MCAT, and now commute 2 hours to class has made me extremely focused. Medicine is my goal but I also would love to expand my family sooner than later. Would it be unrealistic to plan for another baby at the end of my M1 year (May 2019)? I would have the summer to recover and have the baby on a schedule by the start of my M2 year.

I know you asked the OP but I think I can weigh in here and help! I'm a female and currently 27--no offense to the OP but physically being pregnant and being the one to carry/deliver the baby and recover is much different than being the one that doesn't do those things. I had a child before medical school and am currently in my M1 year and pregnant with #2. It is not unreasonable at all to keep the plan you have! I had the same exact plan. It did not work out quite as well for me because we did not get pregnant as quickly as I had hoped so instead of delivering at the end of M1, I will be delivering several weeks before the start of M2. This pregnancy has been difficult and has affected my ability to attend class and scheduled activities. I'm not discouraging getting pregnant at all--simply pointing out that you need to take into account the physical toll pregnancy takes on your body and your mind. My school is incredibly accommodating so I have been able to keep up, but be sure to heavily evaluate your school to determine if they would be accommodating to a pregnancy in your first year (i.e. take into consideration anatomy lab policies, attendance policies, etc). Best of luck to you! Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions!!
 
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