Non-traditional newbie who did not major in psych

[PizzaButt]

Hello!

I'm a 30-year-old, married non-traditional with a law degree who wants to change careers and apply to PhD and PsyD programs as a second career. I did not major in psych in undergrad--I only took one psych course.

But over the course of the past year when I decided to change careers I've been informational interviewing with clinical psychologists and I decided this is what I want to do as my new career. I also landed a research assistant position at a university in the psychology department, so that is what I do as a full-time job now. I am married so the low income that comes with this job isn't too bad.

I'd like to apply for fall '08. As I understand it (and I'm still learning about what applying to these programs entails) I'll need to do the following things:

1) take the GRE. Are there many times per year that you can take it or is it like the LSAT, just a few times per year? How long does the average person need to study for this? Would 2 months be enough? Should I take Kaplan?

2) Take some pre-reqs. I met with some profs at area PhD programs to discuss and they said I need pre-reqs but said these are different with each program. I've only ever taken one psych course. What pre-reqs do I need, generally? I know stats is one....but what level stats?

3) Get some research experience (my current full-time job is a research assistant in psych dept.) Is that enough?

4) Volunteer experience. I have volunteered in free clinics and hosptials in the past. What should I do now--what kind of volunteer experience would be good?

5) Can I do all this and make the app. deadlines for fall '08? If I start now? Do I need to do anything else?

Thanks so much in advance!

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[RayneeDeigh]

1) The General is given almost every day of the year, and Subject is given three times (April, November, December). I HIGHLY recommend taking it in April. For both tests, two months should be more than enough. Whether or not you need to take a Kaplan course depends on your learning style, so none of us can really answer that for you.

2) Like your prof said, it varies. Some ideas: Stats, research methods, psychological measurement, theory of personality, abnormal psychology, experimental psychology, physiological psychology. You might want to throw in a social or cognitive psych class to get a wider range of knowledge.

3) That's a great start. It would also be worthwhile to try to do independent research. I have no idea how people do this if they're not undergrads (since I did mine as an honours thesis) but people in your research lab should be able to answer this for you.

4) That depends on what your research/clinical interests are.

5) It would be very hard to do all of this and apply for Fall '08 but if you're motivated it's worth a shot. The hardest part will be squeezing in all the pre-reqs. Also, you need to contact professors you'd like to apply to, introduce yourself, mention what your interests are, talk a bit about why their research interests you, etc. You'll also need 3 letters of recommendation from professors, preferably in Psychology.

I think the place for you to start would be to look into what schools you want to go to. Try to base it more on their research rather than geographical location (if you can). Google them and you'll come up with their websites. It'll take some digging, but their sites should have information about pre-reqs that you need.

Good luck!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I just realized that I recommended you take the subject GRE in April but you're applying for Fall '08. So um, nevermind that. lol. November would be your best bet then I guess.

 

[danzgymn86]

To be in the incoming class of fall '08, you would need to apply in December 07.

1. GRE... studying. Depends on how out of touch you are with the material and stuff...You should also look at the Psych GRE. I wouldn't study for both of them in 2 months. Especially since you only have one Psych class. That one may take longer for you to study for. However, the next Psych GRE isn't offered until November anyway. The regular one is offered pretty much monthly.

2. Pre-reqs...this will take the longest time for you to complete. You will need a general stats course and then a research methodology course (this one will contain some upper level stats). Along with those, you'll need Abnormal Psychology courses, and then a breadth of requirements in Psych such as Developmental, Social, Tests and Measurements, etc.

3. Get as much research experience as you can. Even on top of your job. Try to propose your own projects/research ideas.

4. Volunteer...someone else will be able to help you better. What area of Clinical do you want to go into? Child? Adult? What do you want to specialize in? Whatever the answer is to that, I would say volunteer in that field.

5. It would be hard to make the app deadlines for fall 08. Because, like I said, you would need many psychology pre-requisite courses. If you took them in the fall, they still would not be completed on your transcript by the time you go to apply Dec. 1 or so...that'd be tha challenging part. You'd need those courses completed and grades on a transcript...

Good luck!
I hope someone else here can help you more than I can!

 

[PizzaButt]

1) The General is given almost every day of the year, and Subject is given three times (April, November, December). I HIGHLY recommend taking it in April. For both tests, two months should be more than enough. Whether or not you need to take a Kaplan course depends on your learning style, so none of us can really answer that for you.

2) Like your prof said, it varies. Some ideas: Stats, research methods, psychological measurement, theory of personality, abnormal psychology, experimental psychology, physiological psychology. You might want to throw in a social or cognitive psych class to get a wider range of knowledge.

3) That's a great start. It would also be worthwhile to try to do independent research. I have no idea how people do this if they're not undergrads (since I did mine as an honours thesis) but people in your research lab should be able to answer this for you.

4) That depends on what your research/clinical interests are.

5) It would be very hard to do all of this and apply for Fall '08 but if you're motivated it's worth a shot. The hardest part will be squeezing in all the pre-reqs. Also, you need to contact professors you'd like to apply to, introduce yourself, mention what your interests are, talk a bit about why their research interests you, etc. You'll also need 3 letters of recommendation from professors, preferably in Psychology.

I think the place for you to start would be to look into what schools you want to go to. Try to base it more on their research rather than geographical location (if you can). Google them and you'll come up with their websites. It'll take some digging, but their sites should have information about pre-reqs that you need.

Good luck!

Thanks so much for your response! A couple other questions:

1) Is the psych subject test abolustely required to apply to PhD and PsyD programs? Is there actually a Kaplan course for this?

2) What are competitive GRE scores for PhD programs?

3) What are the main determinants of getting funded for PhD programs?

4) If the prereqs vary by program, how does a non-psych major know what to take? I mean, does it vary widely? How many should I take? I'm really puzzled about this--how to know how many and exactly what pre-reqs to take. Applying to med school is so much more straighforward. Is it ok for a non-trad to take these at a community college--or should it be a respected 4-year university?

5) When you apply do you apply to specific profs at these programs or do you apply to an admissions committee at each program?

6) How does a non-trad know what his/her research interests are? I mean, I landed this RA position, but it's not my research interests. I am interested in so many areas of psychology that it would be hard to narrow down. How did others do this?

7) How much of a disadvantage am I at for not majoring in psych?

8) I know these programs are MORE competitive than med school, and it scares me. I actually applied to med school 2 years ago and did not get in (because of my MCAT I was told). I have a 3.6 UGPA and did a post-bacc pre-med program. My law school GPA isn't too good--about 3.1. Am I being overly optimistic to think I could get in somewhere? I'm more interested in PhD than PsyD.

 

[PizzaButt]

To be in the incoming class of fall '08, you would need to apply in December 07.



2. Pre-reqs...this will take the longest time for you to complete. You will need a general stats course and then a research methodology course (this one will contain some upper level stats). Along with those, you'll need Abnormal Psychology courses, and then a breadth of requirements in Psych such as Developmental, Social, Tests and Measurements, etc.

5. It would be hard to make the app deadlines for fall 08. Because, like I said, you would need many psychology pre-requisite courses. If you took them in the fall, they still would not be completed on your transcript by the time you go to apply Dec. 1 or so...that'd be tha challenging part. You'd need those courses completed and grades on a transcript...

Thanks so much for your responses. I knew about applying this Dec. But must all the classes have the grades on the transcript by the time I'd apply? I was thinking of taking intro stats this summer and then in the fall a full course load (I guess 4-5 classes). But if I did that would I not even be considered b/c the grades wouldn't be on the transcript in time to be considered? When do they start actually looking at your transcript?

How do you know how many prereqs to take?

Am I totally scr*wed for applying for fall '08? Ugh. I thought I had a plan all figured out.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Thanks so much for your response! A couple other questions:

1) Is the psych subject test abolustely required to apply to PhD and PsyD programs? Is there actually a Kaplan course for this?

2) What are competitive GRE scores for PhD programs?

3) What are the main determinants of getting funded for PhD programs?

4) If the prereqs vary by program, how does a non-psych major know what to take? I mean, does it vary widely? How many should I take? I'm really puzzled about this--how to know how many and exactly what pre-reqs to take. Applying to med school is so much more straighforward. Is it ok for a non-trad to take these at a community college--or should it be a respected 4-year university?

5) When you apply do you apply to specific profs at these programs or do you apply to an admissions committee at each program?

6) How does a non-trad know what his/her research interests are? I mean, I landed this RA position, but it's not my research interests. I am interested in so many areas of psychology that it would be hard to narrow down. How did others do this?

7) How much of a disadvantage am I at for not majoring in psych?

8) I know these programs are MORE competitive than med school, and it scares me. I actually applied to med school 2 years ago and did not get in (because of my MCAT I was told). I have a 3.6 UGPA and did a post-bacc pre-med program. My law school GPA isn't too good--about 3.1. Am I being overly optimistic to think I could get in somewhere? I'm more interested in PhD than PsyD.

1) Some schools require the psych GRE, others just recommend it. Some don't care at all.

2) This is subjective (check school websites for their own info) but I'd say above 1200+ is where you wanna be for the General.

3) The #1 determinant is... the school's existing pool of funds available to offer students. It varies widely. I'm honestly not sure what to tell you about this one.

4) Like I said, school websites. That's how most people get their information about pre-reqs, it's all on there. Usually there will be a link to something about "application requirements" on psychology pages for schools.

5) This varies and again, the only way to know for sure is to check websites (okay I feel like a broken record... haha). Most PhD programs have you apply to specific profs, and PsyD programs generally don't. It's always good to mention specific people in your statements of purpose though, it gives them the idea that you've done some digging on your own.

6) I'm... really not sure. Do you have things you like to read about? Ideas for what kind of populations you want to work with? I'm going to be very blunt and say that if you don't know what your interests are yet, applying for Fall '08 is likely going to frustrate you because you won't have a good fit with any school. All this really takes is some introspection. For instance, my interests lean towards the forensic side of clinical psychology - prison populations and sex offenders in general. I figured that out in grade 8 when I did a research project. But I know lots of people who were just daydreaming one day and thought "hey! I know what would be really fun to study!"

7) That's hard to say. If you work hard and have more than a fleeting interest in the field, you should be able to make up ground in no time.

8) I wouldn't say you're being overly optimistic... you'll just have to do a lot of reseach about specific programs. If you're geographically flexible and find profs who are a good fit for your interests (when you figure out what they are), you'll have a better shot at getting in. The key is to stick with it if this is what you want to do. Many people apply more than once (I'll likely be re-applying because I can't afford the program I was accepted to, without huge loans). Don't get discouraged.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Thanks so much for your responses. I knew about applying this Dec. But must all the classes have the grades on the transcript by the time I'd apply? I was thinking of taking intro stats this summer and then in the fall a full course load (I guess 4-5 classes). But if I did that would I not even be considered b/c the grades wouldn't be on the transcript in time to be considered? When do they start actually looking at your transcript?

How do you know how many prereqs to take?

Am I totally scr*wed for applying for fall '08? Ugh. I thought I had a plan all figured out.

You're not screwed. Most applications have space to fill in the courses you're currently taking, and they'll be counted when reviewing your application.

However, (just trying to put myself in the shoes of an admissions board), they might see that you've crammed all of this into 7 months or so and question your dedication to the field. To protect against attrition in programs, most psych programs want some indication that you're in it for the long-haul.

I could just be talking out of my butt though so I say wait until more people on here reply before you freak out.

 

[PizzaButt]

Thanks for all your responses!

I guess I was hoping that I could easily fit everything in for fall '08. You know, I've been looking tonight at different PhD program web sites and I can't seem to find pre-req info on any of them. Can anyone send me a sample website link (doesn't matter which school--it's just that all the schools I've looked up tonight so far don't seem to have that info on there (or at least I'm not seeing it).

Here is my plan. Is this doable for fall '08? Or completely insane?

approx. June 1. Take GRE
Summer class--intro stats (is intro good enough or should it be higher level?)
Fall semester: take full load of psych classes
Nov. (I guess): take subject GRE after studying in the summer
Dec: apply

Is this doable or am I totally insane? Then there's this RA job I have too....

 

[Bajrinna]

As far as knowing what prereqs you'll need to take, I'd suggest talking with your advisors about specific courses they would recommend. Also, as RayneeDeigh wrote, check out the websites of the schools you're interested in applying to. They usually have everything you'll want to know about requirements for admission, stats for applicants, etc. Should you want a more general base of information, check out APA's website; they have a few pages dedicated to the graduate applicant. Also check out one of the previous threads on this forum, which covered advice for future applicants. It should be near the bottom of the first page, since it was a fairly recent thread.

As far as stats goes, don't worry about what level you're taking. What's more important is that the course covers the basics, will prepare you well for research methods. Check with the professors/students at the school you want to take the stats course at to get their recommendation for which course(s) to take. Don't try to take the highest level intro stats class you can just to boost your resume; it's more important to find a clear teacher who challenges you but also helps you to fully grasp the subject.

Your proposed schedule sounds really full. Just remember that when you're taking classes in the fall, grad school apps will end up taking up much of your time and may even take on the workload of an additional class. Depending on how many hours a week you have to work as an RA, it might be tough to fit everything in, since you'll want to start working on your applications in November to get them polished enough for the December deadline. I would hesitate to say that it's doable, but you know your ability to manage multiple jobs at once. I think it might be best if you took an extra year to prepare, since that will also give you a better chance at getting one of your top choice programs. Also, do you have specific research interests?

Hope this helps; good luck!

 

[PizzaButt]

I'd suggest talking with your advisors about specific courses they would recommend.

This is the problem. I have been out of school for many years and have no advisors. Thus, I'm turning to all the helpful people here at SDN!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Here's George Mason's: http://www.gmu.edu/departments/psychology/clinical/admi.html

UNLV:
http://psychology.unlv.edu/html/clinical_program.html#Admission Scroll down to "admission requirements"

I could go on and on but then I'd just be having more fun with google than studying for my Women's Studies final.

Don't worry, I remember thinking info was SO hard to find when I was starting to look into this stuff. It's more time-consuming than one would think at first, but you get the hang of it.

 

[Bajrinna]

My apologies! By advisers, I was thinking about the people you work with now as an RA...

 

[irish80122]

Alright, I am going to try to answer all of your questions (which are very good btw) in one big post, but I may fail. Therefore, if something isn't clear or if I miss something please let me know!

Something I know you mention is wanting to apply for '08. You may be able to send out some applications but I would hold off applying to a ton of schools until '09. The reason just has to do with the competition you will face. It is difficult for many undergraduate psychology majors to make it into psychology graduate school in large part because we do not have enough research experience. It is great that you are going to be starting on research right away but you would be at a huge disadvantage in '08 not only going up against students who were psych majors but also going up against psych majors who then took two years off and did research, and there are quite a few of those. There are also many applicants who have masters degrees. Because of that, having solid experience and the proper courses is essential in my opinion.

1. As others have said, the general is offered pretty much whenever you want it and the psych only a few times a year so you do have to plan ahead for that. Given your background, the Psych GRE will probably be important, so take plenty of time to study for that. I think 2 months is more than enough for the general, however. If you are able to study on your own and motivate yourself, I see no reason for you to need to take a Kaplan course.

2. For pre-reqs I would have at least Stats (for psych majors, usually 200 or 300 level), research methods, and abnormal. It does depend on the program, but I would consider that a bare minimum and even that is probably grossly insufficient I am sorry to say. Just get in as many psych courses as you can before you apply.

3. I don't know if a year of it will be enough, but two probably would be. A year may be, it just depends. You will soon learn that unfortunately everything in this process is subjective and just depends on the program...it is really random. It is a good first step, that much is for sure.

4. Personally I would worry less about the clinical experience if you have some and worry more about the research at this point. This is especially true if you are not applying to clinical or counseling programs!

5. you may have enough together to apply, but it may be hard to be competitive in that short of a time I am sorry to say. If you want to try you could always apply to a few programs that you feel are a very good match. I hate to tell you to apply to a lot of programs, like I normally would advise, just because it is expensive and a lot of work!

Second round of questions...

1. I honestly am not sure if Kaplan has a course but there are lots of very good books. I would recommend Kaplan's given that you may need something more in-depth. While they are not required at many programs, given your circumstances, I think you have to take them. They will show that you know your stuff in Psych and hopefully will help relieve the worries about pre-reqs if that is still an issue when you apply.

2. Depends who you ask . I would say the cutoff for most clinical programs is 1200 and a good score to shoot for is 1300+ with over 600 on both sections. This doesn't always happen, but it is good to shoot for. I personally had a 550 verbal and still got in, so I don't think that is as big of a deal as having at least a 1200 or preferably a 1300. PM me for more info on that.

3. Funding just depends on programs. There is a great book called the Insider's Guide To Graduate Programs In Clincical and Counseling Psychology. BUY THIS BOOK, really, you need it! It will tell you all about the programs with info on things like funding, GRE scores, acceptance rates, etc. The program I am going to gives all their grad students a tuition waiver and a stipend, but many are not so generous and the Insider's Guide will help you figure out which ones to apply to if funding is important.

4. Again, insider's guide will help you with this but I would just take as much as you can and for sure take the three I mentioned above. I would try to take them at a 4 year school if possible but a CC is certainly better than nothing. I just think a 4 year college will look better.

5. you are more applying to specific profs. One thing to start thinking about is what type of research interests you and then find the professors in that field. Technically you are still applying to the program, but if your prof isn't accepting, it doesn't matter if you have a 4.0 and 1600 GREs.

6. You will learn this as you get more involved in research and it is part of the reason they want you to have the research background. The best way to know what you like is to experience it. Just see what speaks to you. For now though, think about what parts of psychology interest you the most and read up on them and see if you enjoy it. Also, if we happen to overlap with one of your interests, get in touch and we can talk and maybe you will learn if you want to do that research or not. My personal research interest is suicide though I will also be studying gerontology in graduate school, which is an interest but not my primary interest.

7. I don't think not majoring in psych is THAT big of a deal, but not having the background may be. You really need to get as many of those classes as you can IMO.

8. As long as you get the proper classes and get research experience I think you can make it. It will be a lot of work, no doubt, but it is certainly possible.



My questions for you...my answers could potentially change and I can give you more advice once I know these answers:

1. What type of program are you thinking of (Clinical, Counseling, Cognitive, Developmental, Social, Neuro, etc.)

2. You don't have to say on the board but what is prompting this change? Your unique situation and qualifications may help you stand out.

 

[PizzaButt]

Thanks for your links--I appreciate it!

What does "laboratory science" under George Mason's psych requirements mean?

Also, and I know this is totally sad that I can't remember, but when they say 18 hours of coursework, does that mean 3 classes (are they 6 credit hours each?) I'm such an old fogie that I can't remember.

So both of these schools are only requiring 3 psych pre-reqs? If you don't take more than that, are you at a disadvantage--meaning, do they _really_ want to see several more than the 3 listed?

Also, how hard is the psych GRE? Could I study on my own with a textbook and do ok, not having had a psych course in 10 years?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I should be doing work, so i'll just do a quick post and run.....

Classes are typically 3 credits (4 if there is a lab component).

As for being at an advantage/disadvantage with the # of classes you take.....I'd say the more the better, though not everyone is going to be able to take every psych course offered. I'd strongly suggest putting in some significant study time towards your PSYCH GRE, because a solid score may even out taking less psych courses.

I'm sure others can answer the questions I didn't get to.

-t

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Thanks for your links--I appreciate it!

What does "laboratory science" under George Mason's psych requirements mean?

Also, and I know this is totally sad that I can't remember, but when they say 18 hours of coursework, does that mean 3 classes (are they 6 credit hours each?) I'm such an old fogie that I can't remember.

So both of these schools are only requiring 3 psych pre-reqs? If you don't take more than that, are you at a disadvantage--meaning, do they _really_ want to see several more than the 3 listed?

Also, how hard is the psych GRE? Could I study on my own with a textbook and do ok, not having had a psych course in 10 years?

Actually I had no idea what "laboratory science" meant either so I did some detective work a year ago and emailed the admissions person to ask. It's just biology, chemistry, physics, etc. Seems dumb for a requirement, but luckily I had it. That's definitely a weird one though, most schools won't have that (though they DO look favourably upon science courses).

At my school, 18 hours of coursework is 6 half-year courses (as they're 3 credits).

I'd say that you should focus on a well-rounded courseload in psychology, not just the bare minimum. It'll help you for the Psych GRE and look better.

I found the Psych GRE pretty hard because of the sheer amount of things you need to remember (peoples names especially stressed me out). If you read a psych 101 textbook from cover to cover and try to understand it all, you should be okay.

 

[blindblonde]

If you want a great book to help with the application process (step by step, as well as stats and info about pre-reqs for programs), I would get the Insider's Guide to Clinical and Counseling Psychology. You typically can't find it in bookstores and will have to order it online, but it isn't too expensive. It is definitely a good investment, and it should give you some indication where you can apply.

The Psych GRE isn't terrible. It is around 205 multiple choice questions over all areas of psych. It is like one huge intro final. There are Kaplan books available. But really, these are good for the practice tests. All you really need to study is a good intro psych textbook and you should be rearing to go.!

I will say this--even coming from a non-trad background--this process relies a lot on luck. Even as a psych major that took extra coursework, had an honors thesis, has done research and internships, and had decent test scores, my luck with getting into clinical programs has not been great. I have 7 offical rejections from clinical PhD. (+ 1 PsyD.) programs (plus 2 probable rejections that I should get soon). I am wait listed at one PhD. program and am wait listed at a master's program. This isn't meant to scare you--I am just making sure that you know what kind of odds you are getting into. This isn't an easy process, but I will echo others who have posted that hard work and using your background to your advantage will get you your goals. You're on the right track, and good luck!!

 

[PizzaButt]

Thanks so much for everyone's helpful replies!!!! I really, really appreciate it!

As for me, well....I have been very unhappy in every job/career I've ever had since law school graduation. Law is just not for me. So I have been soul-searching. I decided to apply to med school 2 years ago. Did a post-bacc, took all my pre-med pre-reqs (I was a humanities major in college). Took the MCAT...and did not get in anywhere. Re-took the MCAT. Did not apply a second time due to not really improving.

Took more time to soul-search and had more jobs I didn't like. Then this year decided on clinical psych.

I am eager to get started though, since I'm already 30. The idea of not being able to get in until fall '09 makes me feel kinda depressed.

But, on the other hand, I need to apply to programs in locations where my spouse can get a job.....so that is another consideration.

My main interest is clinical psychology (adult). I'm equally interested in clinical and health psychology. Very interested in neuropsychology. Also interested in anxiety disorders and phobias.

I was probably way too optimistic to think that I could fit in everything I need to do and still apply for fall '08. Is it worth a try? Are the application expenses expensive?

I know these programs are super competitive.....more so than med school. I just want to get in somewhere.....in a good location for my spouse to get a job. But I know that I'm probably at a disadvantage both b/c of my lack of psychology major and also b/c of my age.

In the med school app. process there are some schools that are "non-trad" friendly--is there such a thing with PhD programs too? I would guess that the PsyD programs as a whole would be more non-trad friendly than the PhD.

Anyhow, there's info about me. Thanks again for your responses. I will be eagerly reading this forum for more info.

 

[PizzaButt]

Even as a psych major that took extra coursework, had an honors thesis, has done research and internships, and had decent test scores, my luck with getting into clinical programs has not been great. I have 7 offical rejections from clinical PhD. (+ 1 PsyD.) programs (plus 2 probable rejections that I should get soon). I am wait listed at one PhD. program and am wait listed at a master's program. This isn't meant to scare you

Yikes! How is this possible? Why do you think you haven't gotten any acceptances yet? Do I have any chance whatsoever?????

 

[RayneeDeigh]

To echo what blindblonde said, luck is definitely a huge component. Because of that, it's important to be VERY dedicated to the field. I'd honestly never been rejected for anything (well I mean besides boyfriends, haha) before applying to grad school... and dealing with it required me to re-evaluate my commitment to this. I came to the conclusion that I honestly can't see myself doing anything else, so I'm in this to do it right, even if it takes me a billion years (okay I hope not!)

I also want to say that I think the focus of all psych grad wannabes should be more on personal competence rather than "getting in and getting out quickly". Though I know it's hard to do with a clock ticking in your brain, it's the drive to accomplish the final goal that will keep you dedicated to this hugely painful process.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

My main interest is clinical psychology (adult). I'm equally interested in clinical and health psychology. Very interested in neuropsychology. Also interested in anxiety disorders and phobias.

Excellent, now you have a place to start from!

I was probably way too optimistic to think that I could fit in everything I need to do and still apply for fall '08. Is it worth a try? Are the application expenses expensive?

They average about $100 per school.

I know these programs are super competitive.....more so than med school. I just want to get in somewhere.....in a good location for my spouse to get a job. But I know that I'm probably at a disadvantage both b/c of my lack of psychology major and also b/c of my age.

Your age could actually work for you. You definitely wouldn't be out of place in clinical psych, lots of people are in their 30s. One of my research partners is 32 and just finishing up her undergrad now.

In the med school app. process there are some schools that are "non-trad" friendly--is there such a thing with PhD programs too? I would guess that the PsyD programs as a whole would be more non-trad friendly than the PhD.

Do you mean "non-trad" as in not a psych student? I'm not really sure.

Yikes! How is this possible? Why do you think you haven't gotten any acceptances yet? Do I have any chance whatsoever?????

Unfortunately my story reads about the same as blindblonde's. Though I've now figured out a few areas that I need to work on for the next year, a LOT of it just has to do with the fact that there are tons of great students out there.

 

[blindblonde]

Well, to answer the expense question at least...I spent $2300 on this process (prep books, GREs, GRE score reports, app fees for 11 schools, 3 interviews costs), so yeah it can get expensive. The costs are spread out though, and varies on how many interviews you get and how many schools you apply to. So yeah...fun times with my budget.

To me, it is really hard to predict your chances of getting in this year. After going though this process this year, my whole sense of "am I good enough" has been thrown off, and it is difficult for me to assess this for you. I will honestly say that I knew I wanted to go this track for a few years now and have planned my college career around it. I know there are many non-traditional people around here, and I met quite a few on my interviews. For you, especially since you don't have a psych background, applying to some masters programs may not be a bad idea. Granted, it may take you even longer to get trhough since master's credits do not always transfer in clinical programs, it will at least get you into the field and will give you better chances for Ph.D. programs. But I will say again--a lot of this is luck. It took me forever to get that in my head, and just the odds that are stacked up against you in this field makes this process really hard.

Okay, so after all that blabbing...I just have to say this: I don't know what your chances are, but you are not necessarily screwed for Fall '08.

 

[PizzaButt]

Yeah, I know. But being 30, I'm so eager to get started. If I was a youngin' it wouldn't be so hard to wait.


So it seems like I'm looking to take between 3 and 6 classes as pre-reqs for some of these schools?

If I take a 200 or 300 level stats course, will I be totally lost if I haven't had any stats ever? Should I start with a 100 level intro class or would that be totally useless to my application? I'm kinda scared of stats, quite honestly. I took o-chem for my post-bacc and that was hard but I'm equally scared of stats! It sounds so boring too. What did you all think of the course?

 

[PizzaButt]

Unfortunately my story reads about the same as blindblonde's. Though I've now figured out a few areas that I need to work on for the next year, a LOT of it just has to do with the fact that there are tons of great students out there.

Can you share what some of these factors are--that you're working on for next year?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

But I know that I'm probably at a disadvantage both b/c of my lack of psychology major and also b/c of my age.

This can be seen as an advantage most/all of the time. I'm a non-trad student of sorts (I had 5ish years under my belt when I decided to go back to school), and it was looked upon favorably. I could speak to life outside of academia, how I approached my career, and why clinical was what I really wanted to do. I think you can be a lot more informed about what you want to do......when you actually go out and DO something for awhile. Once I was in grad school, I felt so much more prepared to juggle a bunch of responsibilities, deal with life, and feel comfortable working with a range of people.

-t

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Yeah, I know. But being 30, I'm so eager to get started. If I was a youngin' it wouldn't be so hard to wait.

Is it expensive to apply to each school?

So it seems like I'm looking to take between 3 and 6 classes as pre-reqs for some of these schools?

If I take a 200 or 300 level stats course, will I be totally lost if I haven't had any stats ever? Should I start with a 100 level intro class or would that be totally useless to my application? I'm kinda scared of stats, quite honestly. I took o-chem for my post-bacc and that was hard but I'm equally scared of stats! It sounds so boring too. What did you all think of the course?

Oh I'm 21 and waiting still drives me insane. I've been in school since I was 2 years old and I'm itching to keep the process moving along.

A lot of research methods courses have a stats component to them, so if you take one of those and intro-level stats, that should work for most admissions panels. Don't worry, most if not all of us are scared of stats too.

I took O-chem (or rather, tried to) because I thought I wanted to maybe do forensic psychiatry. I got 8% on one exam and 16% on the other, so I hightailed it outta there. Stats is easier, don't worry.

 

[blindblonde]

Yikes! How is this possible? Why do you think you haven't gotten any acceptances yet? Do I have any chance whatsoever?????

Well, was typing my other response when you posted this...but I will say some personal things. I am coming straight out of undergrad, so my clinical experience is a little limited (even though I had 2 internships). I did manage to get 3 interviews. My advisor had to console me a bit, forcing me to see that getting an interview means you're qualified. Beyond that it is how well you fit with the program and sheer luck. Unfortunately, the way the field is set up, people who are like me that have the qualifications but do not get in work over the year to increase their resume, and re-apply. Thus, it makes it harder for the newer people to get in, and then you factor in masters applicants applying to Ph.D. programs--and you have a mess. There are a ton of qualified applicants out there, just not enough spots. It sucks, but it is the process.

 

[PizzaButt]

I guess b/c of my law degree it might be easier to get into programs if I was interested in forensic....but I'm just not. I can't see myself working in prisons.

Psych is such a fascinating field....I'm interested in nearly everything. But health psychology is at the top of my list. This is a different program than clinical psych....is that correct? That was my understanding. And neuropsych is a subspecialty of health psych?

I'm also interested in the cognitive-behavioral approach over psychodynamic, and I understand that it's also important to choose a program compatible with this....is that correct? In other words, if I want to be in the cog-beh orientation, I should not apply to psychdynamic programs?

 

[RayneeDeigh]

Can you share what some of these factors are--that you're working on for next year?

Sure.

First, I'm going to go back to school (it's weird to re-apply to my undergrad school since I'm graduating in two weeks) so that I can take stats through the faculty of science to supplement the research methods/measurement courses I took through the dept of Psychology. I figure that may have been a factor in the assessment of my application.

I'm also going to get clinical experience. Not sure where yet, but once I'm 100% sure I'm not going to grad school next year I'll begin the search.

I'm going to approach psychologists in my city who are doing research in my area of interest, and ask if I can volunteer in their research labs. My research experience isn't very related to my interests, although I have a lot of it.

I'm also going to a conference in August to try to meet profs I'd like to work with. Networking is definitely a problem for me, as I'm painfully shy and will have to get over this one way or another.

My thesis advisor is going to help me publish my thesis now that it's done as of last night. lol. So I'll spend my summer preparing that, and hopefully have a publication under review by the time I apply in December.

Though I already had a conference presentation, I'm doing another one at the end of this month to add to my CV.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

I guess b/c of my law degree it might be easier to get into programs if I was interested in forensic....but I'm just not. I can't see myself working in prisons.

Psych is such a fascinating field....I'm interested in nearly everything. But health psychology is at the top of my list. This is a different program than clinical psych....is that correct? That was my understanding. And neuropsych is a subspecialty of health psych?

I'm also interested in the cognitive-behavioral approach over psychodynamic, and I understand that it's also important to choose a program compatible with this....is that correct? In other words, if I want to be in the cog-beh orientation, I should not apply to psychdynamic programs?

Forensic is a huge and varied field. There are many forensic psychologists that don't work in prisons at all. You could do therapy with victims, for instance.

Clinical Health Psychology exists, it's not necessarily separate from Clinical Psych itself. Neuropsych is usually regarded as a specialty of its own, although there are many clinical neuropsych programs and some neuropsych/health programs.

In my experience the personal orientation isn't AS important as research interest, unless say the school is 90% psychodynamic. For instance... my intro to clinical psych prof is very much a humanist, but he graduated from a school that was strictly behaviourist. It's do-able, and I wouldn't focus too much on that.

 

[blindblonde]

Yeah, I'm in a similar boat. I will look for an RA job at Emory or GA State if I do not get in off the wait list. I've already agreed to work on a research project this June--whether I get in or not. If that get sig. results, then I will see about another conference or a publication.

PizzaButt (I swear, I do love that SN ), a law background does help in general since you could prove that you can handle graduate work. I think getting the classes will help and getting a decent score on the Psych GRE will be key--just to show that you have a good background to start at the graduate level. Even if the program doesn't require it, I would do it since you are a non-trad. student. Trust me, you've already made a tremendous step in the right direction by jumping on SDN.

 

[PizzaButt]

Thanks for your replies.

I'm not interested in teaching at all.....only private/hospital practice and research. But mainly private/hospital practice.

In my informational interviews with therapists, one main concern they all have is salary....as a non-traditional student, who would be starting the PhD at 31 or 32, I want it to be "worth" the time.....I mean, I am very interested in psychology, and can see myself loving the field, but salary is important too. It seems that $50-70 k starting salary is pretty typical...is that true?

Is the salary worth the 6 years? I am considering re-applying to med school again and I am on the fence about dentistry as well. Really that 6 years would be more like 8 in my case if it takes me 2 years to do the pre-reqs. That's 8 years of lost income. Is it worth it? I have been pondering this since I began thinking seriously about pursuing clinical psych.

 

[PizzaButt]

I will look for an RA job at Emory or GA State if I do not get in off the wait list.

I found my RA job through cold-contacting. It really worked.

How important is it to be published/have publications/conferences/presentations to get in? I won't have any of those. Though I have publications in law. Are you at a big disadvantage without those?

Also, I'm okay with applying to the "bottom of the barrel" schools. Is there a big difference from the top schools to the bottom schools in terms of admissions stats? School name isn't important as private practice is my main career goal. Also, I just want to go somewhere geographically good for my husband's job.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

In my informational interviews with therapists, one main concern they all have is salary....as a non-traditional student, who would be starting the PhD at 31 or 32, I want it to be "worth" the time.....I mean, I am very interested in psychology, and can see myself loving the field, but salary is important too. It seems that $50-70 k starting salary is pretty typical...is that true?

That's about right, with most starting salaries being closer to $50K than $70K. With private practice it REALLY depends on where you settle down. If you're in an area where it's very needed, you'll make more. If you settle in a saturated area, you'll struggle a bit more.

Is the salary worth the 6 years? I am considering re-applying to med school again and I am on the fence about dentistry as well. Really that 6 years would be more like 8 in my case if it takes me 2 years to do the pre-reqs. That's 8 years of lost income. Is it worth it? I have been pondering this since I began thinking seriously about pursuing clinical psych.

Well, we can't really answer that for you. Though, it wouldn't really be 8 years of lost income. You often get paid for work that you do while doing your degree, and your internship will likely be paid (though not a HUGE amount). If you're having doubts about the profession then it sounds like you should think about it some more. Starting on this very long journey will burn you out if you're not 100% sure about it.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Depending how you want to use (or not use) your legal background....you can definitely make some really good money if you are willing to integrate the two. I've posted before about consulting opportunities (at the request of others). It may be worth considering. A legal degree isn't that common in the field, so it will make you uniquely qualified. You don't HAVE to do forensic work either....there are plenty of consulting opportunities outside of that.

-t

ps. This thread is rockin' at 1:24 EST! I'm still around working on a paper ,and ya'll seem to have more energy than most!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

How important is it to be published/have publications/conferences/presentations to get in? I won't have any of those. Though I have publications in law. Are you at a big disadvantage without those?

A little, yes. Though your law publications will work for you too. You might be able to squeeze in a conference presentation with your RA job.

Also, I'm okay with applying to the "bottom of the barrel" schools. Is there a big difference from the top schools to the bottom schools in terms of admissions stats? School name isn't important as private practice is my main career goal. Also, I just want to go somewhere geographically good for my husband's job.

HUGE difference. However, the "bottom" schools generally have crappy funding. If you're only interested in private practice, a PsyD or PhD in counselling Psychology may be more useful for you. They're easier to get in to.

 

[RayneeDeigh]

ps. This thread is rockin' at 1:24 EST! I'm still around working on a paper ,and ya'll seem to have more energy than most!

Like I said in your thread about our typical days, I'm a total night owl. A multitasker too. I'm currently eating chocolate cake, reading an article about brothels in Nevada for my exam, writing two emails, replying in here, and cleaning my room. haha.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Like I said in your thread about our typical days, I'm a total night owl. A multitasker too. I'm currently eating chocolate cake, reading an article about brothels in Nevada for my exam, writing two emails, replying in here, and cleaning my room. haha.

I was debating some chocolate earlier (frozen bar in the freezer.) Then I was going to go the grapefruit or cantaloupe route, but it was too messy to do while working on my laptop.

As for the range of quality programs...it really depends on your goals. If you want just private practice, (as mentioned above) you probably could do a counseling or clinical degree. As for PhD or PsyD, I think it depends on the program. There are funded, partially-funded, and poor funding programs. I think the level of schools vary in each area and should be evaluated individually. Most programs are very very competitive, so that will be a hurdle. I was recently looking at the Rutgers (PsyD) stats and they were ridiculously low (<2% or so?), most programs aren't as bad as that....but far from easy.

Any idea what area of the country you'd like to land? (You mentioned your husband's job)

-t

 

[PizzaButt]

This thread is rockin' at 1:24 EST! I'm still around working on a paper ,and ya'll seem to have more energy than most!

 

[PizzaButt]

If you want just private practice, (as mentioned above) you probably could do a counseling or clinical degree. t

What do you mean by clinical degree--do you mean the PsyD?

What exactly is the difference between counseling psych and clinical psych? Is counseling psych more working with people with problems like relationships, work, etc. whereas clinical psych is working with more severe disorders--depression, eating disorders, anxiety, phobias, etc.?

We are open to moving anywhere in the country, but my hubby would need to make sure he could get a job in the particular city. I understand about the funding differences. I'm open to considering bottom of the barrel schools....but it would help enormously for me to get funded. Ultimately, I see myself in private practice or working at a hospital. Or research. But not teaching....I'm not interested in that at all.

I have also looked at Rutgers and Pepperdine's PsyD admission stats....they look like great programs but I bet it's easier to get into Harvard medical school than it is to those two programs!

 

[RayneeDeigh]

What exactly is the difference between counseling psych and clinical psych? Is counseling psych more working with people with problems like relationships, work, etc. whereas clinical psych is working with more severe disorders--depression, eating disorders, anxiety, phobias, etc.?

I'm pretty sure counseling psych involves work with anxiety and phobias too, it's just that they don't tend to work with schizophrenics, bipolar, etc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I have also looked at Rutgers and Pepperdine's PsyD admission stats....they look like great programs but I bet it's easier to get into Harvard medical school than it is to those two programs!

By the admission stats...i'd think you are probably right.

As for the difference in programs. I said clinical (as a way to differentiate from a counseling program). PhD and PsyD is the split within clinical. They are both doctoral degrees, each can have a slightly different focus....though it is more up to each individual program. Typically PhD programs tend to have more of a research slant, compared to a typical PsyD program....though this is a generality. I know some PsyDs that do just as much research, and other PhDs that may do a bit less research.

Instead of re-inventing the wheel, I'd suggest doing a search of the Clinical Forum to read about the specific differences. To learn about the slant of each program, DEFINITELY pick up a copy of "The Insider's Guide To Clinical Psychology Graduate Programs" (or something like that). It will be the best <$25 you spend.


-t

 

[paramour]

Keep in mind that "bottom of the barrel" schools aren't necessarily a sure thing either. I know a number of people (including myself) who were rejected from lower-ranked programs, only to be accepted by better quality ones. In addition, there will be a large number of applicants who decide to apply to lower ranked schools simply because they are aware that they would be considered less competitive at other programs due to their stats (e.g., GPA, GRE, research experience). From my communication with a few of these programs, they are also seeing the number of applicants increase substantially as of late. A few of them had the number of applicants double from past years.

G'luck!

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

paramour: Great point! "Rankings" should definitely be taken with a grain of salt. You also described the "match" process....which freaks me out, since I'll be doing that this year!

-t

 

[Cosmo 23]

Just to make a quick cheerleading point for counseling psych programs...
Re: the assertion that counseling psych programs are easier to get into, the 2007 insider's guide notes that admissions rates to clinical programs is 6%, counseling 8%...rates the authors call "quite similar". Search the others threads for previous discussions on the differences between the fields in terms of patient populations, theoretical orientations, etc.

The guide also provides a lot of data on applicant differences, e.g., avg GPAs of incoming students are identical, GRE scores "similar" (their words), etc. However differentials between PhD and PsyD program are much greater, in terms of admissions rates and applicant and admitted student stats, according to the guide. PhD counseling psych programs are more competitive than the majority of PsyD programs, based on the available data.

I got into both clinical and counseling programs with a masters in counseling psych so I'm not suggesting one is better than the other. Just want to share facts, rather than perceptions or biases. If you google counseling vs. clinical the authors of the insider's guide have also written a nice comparative essay listing the results of their research comparing clinical and counseling programs. I believe the 07 guide is newer than the essay though.

Best of luck to all!

 

[Ollie123]

Good point - counseling IS easier to get into, but not really by any significant amount. If you're willing to go to a professional PsyD school, there's a few that seem to take anyone who can find their way to the door (Saw some with acceptances rates in the neighborhood of 70-80% ). These you end up paying through the nose for.

If you don't mind my asking, do you have debts from law school? I ask because if you have over 100,000 in law school debts, and add on another 100k in psych grad school debts from going to a professional school, and then get a "typical" psych job that pays 50k a year, you may have serious troubles paying that off. If your law school debt is already gone, you might find the debt from a professional school more manageable.

The good news is that if you're smart and motivated there are always ways to earn more. I too always thought forensics involved working in prison systems, but now I'm investigating the possibility of consulting on civil cases involving emotional damages (since I plan on specializing in emotion). I'm a big law nerd and almost went to law school myself so I could definitely have some fun with that and I imagine the money would be excellent compared to the usual faculty position salaries.

Best of luck with the process!

 

[Bajrinna]

As far as publications/conference presentations/etc, they're not mandatory for admission. They definitely help, though, and give admissions committees a good sense of the kind of research you've been doing and are capable of producing. The fact that you've published legal articles should speak well for you and, as has been mentioned, suggest that you're very capable of completing graduate level work. If you can get in on a poster presentation or conference, I would do that to help boost your resume and give additional proof that you're committed to this field.

In regards to private practice, I'd suggest looking atPsy.D. programs as well as at Ph.D. programs. While you can go into clinical practice with the Ph.D. degree, it's generally a research degree (and if you end up applying to Ph.D. programs, be careful about the program's emphasis - e.g. unless they specifically state that they intend to produce practitioners, do not mention your interest in private practice). A Psy.D. might be better since you mentioned that your primary interests are practice-related. If you think you'd like to do research at some point, you can still do that with the Psy.D. It's just not as research-focused as the Ph.D. See how much you enjoy the work you're doing as an RA - that might help you decide if research is something you enjoy doing and wish to continue in graduate school.

I've seen health psychology offered as a branch of clinical psychology, such that the basic coursework is the same as "general" clinical psychology, but then the electives are more health-based. I think it depends on the program though. Good luck!

 

[psychRA]

As someone who didn't have a psych background, I can assure you that it IS possible to get into a clinical psych PhD program! However, I'd definitely advise you to wait another year before applying. The competition is so tough that you'll want to strengthen your application as much as possible. I think you'll be in a much better position to a year from now:

1. While you don't have to have ALL of the core classes completed at the time that you apply, being enrolled isn't proof enough that you're going to do well - schools are going to want to see that you've gotten good grades, so you're going to need to wait until you have transcripts to submit.
2. Working at a research job is great preparation, but it doesn't mean as much if you don't have any products to show for it (posters, publications), which takes time. After you've been there for at least a year, you're more likely to have products, and your letters of recommendation will be stronger.
3. Doing well on the psych GRE is a good way to demonstrate knowledge of the field, especially if you don't have a psych background. I would definitely advise you to study hard and do as well as you can. I managed to apply only to programs that didn't require it, but I just got lucky - the fact that I didn't take it could have been a huge liability.
4. The problem with applying to "bottom of the barrel" clinical psych PhD programs is that there really aren't any. Even the programs that are at the lower end of the rankings are extremely competitive to get into. It's incredibly difficult to predict - I got rejected by some programs at the bottom of the list, and got into other programs closer to the top. For most people, there really are no "safety" schools.

Good luck!

 

[PizzaButt]

If I take the pre-reqs in the fall, and apply on the Dec. 20 deadline (but still don't have the final grades yet), can I still apply? Will programs even look at my application if they have to wait a bit for me to send them my transcript? Or do they request transcripts themselves? I would imagine transcripts would be ready with final grades around min-January. Would this be too late?

Thanks!