Non traditional student- licensed NP

Started by rc343
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Am I too old (44) to start preq and do MD school?

  • Yes

    Votes: 7 18.4%

  • No

    Votes: 13 34.2%

  • Don’t go back to be a MD- stay NP

    Votes: 18 47.4%
  • Total voters
    38
  • Poll closed .
R

rc343

Full Member
5+ Year Member
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Thank you for reading. I want to retake some classes that I took 20 years ago so I can be better prepared for the MCAT. My undergrad GPA is 3.5 and graduate degree 3.85 at an Ivy League school. I have been a NP for 16 years and I want to be a MD for many reasons.

I need to take 4 chemistry classes, cell biology and a physics class.

How many months or years is it realistic to: take these classes, study for MCAT and apply?

I’m 44 and feeling nervous about being too old (according to the admissions committee) to apply and I don’t want to waste time.
 
If you were my own child, I suggest sticking with NP. You're talking about not matriculating until you are ~46, entering residency when you are ~50. It's along haul.

I've had one student who did this on an identical timeline; she's now an attending. So there's that.
 
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Chem I and II are usually pre-requisites for Organic Chem I and II so you have to take them sequentially meaning, at a minimum 4 semesters (2 academic years). You could be taking physics and cell bio concurrently. You could prep for the MCAT during the last 6 months of your coursework. Then there is the requisite application year after you have finished the courses and taken the MCAT and submitted the application. So, you are looking at taking classes in 2021-2023, interviewing (you hope) in 2023-24 and starting med school in 2024. You will not be able to work from 2024-2028. You will then be a resident for 3 years (2028-2031) making half of what you make as an NP. There goes some prime earning years when you would be contributing toward your retirement savings (when all that tax deferred growth really adds up) and instead you are accumulating a six-figure debt.

Consider the money you won't be making for the years you are in school as well as the debt you will accumulate. The opportunity cost for you is huge and you come out the other end (if you even get admitted) deeper in debt and doing what?? how will be working as a newly licensed MD be different than being a NP with 20-30 years experience?

It is not likely that you will be considered "too old". It is likely that you might be judged with regard to your ability to take direction from someone who is younger and less experienced (e.g. as an M3 you may be taking direction from a 28 year old resident who is still wet behind the ears). How well will you take criticism particularly if you are told that whatever you were doing as an NP is not the way it is done at that med school.

Just some things to think about.
 
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rc343 said:
Thank you for reading. I want to retake some classes that I took 20 years ago so I can be better prepared for the MCAT. My undergrad GPA is 3.5 and graduate degree 3.85 at an Ivy League school. I have been a NP for 16 years and I want to be a MD for many reasons.

I need to take 4 chemistry classes, cell biology and a physics class.

How many months or years is it realistic to: take these classes, study for MCAT and apply?

I’m 44 and feeling nervous about being too old (according to the admissions committee) to apply and I don’t want to waste time.
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You're never too old, since age is really a state of mind. Adcoms seem to love people with experience, so you shouldn't experience age related bias unless something in your application gives them reason to doubt that you'd have the stamina to withstand the rigor of the training.

Whether it is a smart move for you, given the huge opportunity cost and the very diminished payback period (at least 20 years less than the vast majority of the class), is something only you can decide. The cost/benefit simply isn't there for most established people, which is one reason the average age of a med student isn't in the 40s (or even 30s), but there are exceptions to every rule. Good luck!!
 
rc343 said:
It will take 6 years to take the pre Reqs? I really appreciate your advice!
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No, I'm sure he lost his count. It will take you around two years to complete prereqs and take the MCAT, and then at least another year to apply. You are probably looking at 3-4 years from next year, or 2024-25, before you can begin. So, not 50, but probably 48-49. What's a year one way or the other at that point? 😎
 
LizzyM said:
Chem I and II are usually pre-requisites for Organic Chem I and II so you have to take them sequentially meaning, at a minimum 4 semesters (2 academic years). You could be taking physics and cell bio concurrently. You could prep for the MCAT during the last 6 months of your coursework. Then there is the requisite application year after you have finished the courses and taken the MCAT and submitted the application. So, you are looking at taking classes in 2021-2023, interviewing (you hope) in 2023-24 and starting med school in 2024. You will not be able to work from 2024-2028. You will then be a resident for 3 years (2028-2031) making half of what you make as an NP. There goes some prime earning years when you would be contributing toward your retirement savings (when all that tax deferred growth really adds up) and instead you are accumulating a six-figure debt.

Consider the money you won't be making for the years you are in school as well as the debt you will accumulate. The opportunity cost for you is huge and you come out the other end (if you even get admitted) deeper in debt and doing what?? how will be working as a newly licensed MD be different than being a NP with 20-30 years experience?

It is not likely that you will be considered "too old". It is likely that you might be judged with regard to your ability to take direction from someone who is younger and less experienced (e.g. as an M3 you may be taking direction from a 28 year old resident who is still wet behind the ears). How well will you take criticism particularly if you are told that whatever you were doing as an NP is not the way it is done at that med school.

Just some things to think about.
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I think I take criticism well. The surgeons that I work for, in a hospital trauma and critical care, have flushed out a lot my errors over the years.

I function as a resident now; which is part of my motivation to go back. I’m tired of helping train residents on procedures and our specialty etc. only to see them go on as attendings and I cannot. I feel like the older I get, the less I see myself enjoying in this capacity. I know I want to stay in the medical field just not in this capacity.

I also really hunger for the extra layers of knowledge and leadership. My children are now older hence my delayed timing.
The thing that does ring true to me is the opportunity cost. So is it all worth it? I don’t know.
 
rc343 said:
The thing that does ring true to me is the opportunity cost. So is it all worth it? I don’t know.
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I cannot imagine being in your situation and going through medical school (4 years), surgery residency (5 years minimum) +/- fellowship (1 year minimum). In addition to the financial and other considerations mentioned above, you will also likely need to move for medical school, and again for residency. Will you be able to work 80 hour weeks consistently for at least 5 years during residency? What about handling sleep deprivation, and irregular sleep schedules that may include long stretches of nights? The opportunity costs are not worth it in my humble opinion. Best of luck with your decision.
 
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I mean, really... if you go to school full time, do summer gen chem (fit 2 semesters into 8 weeks), followed by a year in which you do O chem & physics/cell biology (plus anything else you might need), self study biochem for the MCAT, take the MCAT early summer & apply... you could do prerequisites in a year. Then another year to apply. That's 2 years to starting medical school.

I did this, but I added biochem & stats in the fall of my application year because a few of the schools I applied to required biochem & 2 semesters of math. The only science prereq I had when I started was a semester of calculus.
 
Moko said:
I cannot imagine being in your situation and going through medical school (4 years), surgery residency (5 years minimum) +/- fellowship (1 year minimum). In addition to the financial and other considerations mentioned above, you will also likely need to move for medical school, and again for residency. Will you be able to work 80 hour weeks consistently for at least 5 years during residency? What about handling sleep deprivation, and irregular sleep schedules that may include long stretches of nights? The opportunity costs are not worth it in my humble opinion. Best of luck with your decision.
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I don’t want to be a surgeon at this point. Maybe when I was in my 20s. Not now. I would do Emergency medicine or Family.
 
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You'd be a shoo in as long as your MCAT score is anything decent. The 16 years as an NP pretty much make it impossible for them to not look conclude that you'll get through clinicals.

As others have said, gauge all your factors because it's a long road. Awesome road though and you're not too old to take it. One of my favorite people got her MD at 49 after a career as a chemist and in the military.

David D, MD - USMLE and MCAT Tutor
Med School Tutors
 
General chemistry I & II, organic I & II, biochemistry, biology I & II, and physics I & II can all be completed in 12 months. Take the MCAT in July of the Summer after you finish the course, using the May and June for prep.
 
I do not know of many programs where it is feasible to take all prereqs in 12 months. Usually, the most accelerated path one could do is as follows:

Summer 1: Gen chem 1 and 2
Fall: bio 1, Orgo 1, phys 1
Spring: bio 2, Orgo 2, phys 2
Summer: biochem

it’s possible to follow this outline and be ready to apply to DO programs since the cycle is a bit later. Personally, I wouldn’t recommend cramming the MCAT in such a short amount of time.
 
GreenDuck12 said:
I do not know of many programs where it is feasible to take all prereqs in 12 months. Usually, the most accelerated path one could do is as follows:

Summer 1: Gen chem 1 and 2
Fall: bio 1, Orgo 1, phys 1
Spring: bio 2, Orgo 2, phys 2
Summer: biochem

it’s possible to follow this outline and be ready to apply to DO programs since the cycle is a bit later. Personally, I wouldn’t recommend cramming the MCAT in such a short amount of time.
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I did that schedule except for biochemistry in the Spring with the other three classes.
 
drbatsandwich said:
My mom started her diy post-bacc for prerequisites when I was in high school and graduated from an established DO school at 51. She was previously a stay at home mom with a degree in Italian literature. It can be done, and she says it’s the best decision she’s ever made. Good luck!!
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Thank you so much for posting. Means a lot.
 
I'll be 35 next year if & when I start school. A little younger than you, but still in a similar boat, since I've been an AA for 9 years now.

We only get one life in this universe. Might as well do what makes you happy. We're all going to get old regardless.
 
drbatsandwich said:
My pleasure! I should also mention that when I’m all done, I’ll be an attending at 42 🙂 No fears of opportunity cost in this family haha
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Btw what did your mom do for her residency? Did she have to move or did she get lucky at a local university? How old was she when she finished residency? Thank you in advance.
 
rc343 said:
Btw what did your mom do for her residency? Did she have to move or did she get lucky at a local university? How old was she when she finished residency? Thank you in advance.
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She did family medicine at the community hospital 5 minutes from her house. Her med school was also 15 min away. Never had to move! She was 54 when she finished residency. She now helps run an urgent care part-time and does teledoc and 4hims as side gigs from home.
 
I’m close to your age and getting close to finishing up my MD, to be honest in your situation I couldn’t recommend it. You aren’t too old but you’ve got to look at the years of NP salary you’d be giving up and you’ve got to be realistic about what kind of practice you’d have coming out of residency. How many years are you going to be able to work? I know personally I hope to have 25 but that means working till I’m 75. Not everyone is going to want to do that.
it’s a massive investment in time and money, I wasn’t coming from a decent job in healthcare. So, it was easier for me to decide to go back to school and eventually into medicine.
 
I have my own biases here, but I'm in a similar boat, a few years younger (41), also an NP (11 years total in nursing). I will be applying when I'm 43. I'm lucky in that I watched my Dad walk a similar path (he wasn't happy as a pharmacist, so went back at age 41 and is still practicing nearly 30 years later). So it can be done. In my case, it is true--the opportunity costs are huge--4 years without income and another 3-4 at about a third of what I make now. But I also work with terminally ill patients and they have taught me that all the retirement money in the world doesn't really matter if you have a ton of regret about how your life could have turned out and not following your heart (it sounds cheesy but could not be more true for me).

I am magnetically drawn to medicine--CALLED to it and can't think about doing anything else. I wish I'd been mature enough and had enough self-confidence to do this as a younger person, but I wasn't. That's that, I have accepted it and have moved on and am doing it now.

I think if you're ready and HAPPILY willing to accept the opportunity costs--retirement income lost, nights of sleep lost, loss of feeling like an
expert--that others have mentioned and you know you would regret at least not trying, what more do you have to lose?

Don't do it if you feel that worrying about retirement funds, having to deal with working months of night shifts, and taking direction from people with far fewer years of health care experience is going to grate your nerves so hard that you hate the process of becoming a physician, even if you'd still really enjoy the outcome. We're talking about the better part of a decade of your life, so you need to be sure you're going to enjoy the ride!
 
Sn00pygrrl said:
I have my own biases here, but I'm in a similar boat, a few years younger (41), also an NP (11 years total in nursing). I will be applying when I'm 43. I'm lucky in that I watched my Dad walk a similar path (he wasn't happy as a pharmacist, so went back at age 41 and is still practicing nearly 30 years later). So it can be done. In my case, it is true--the opportunity costs are huge--4 years without income and another 3-4 at about a third of what I make now. But I also work with terminally ill patients and they have taught me that all the retirement money in the world doesn't really matter if you have a ton of regret about how your life could have turned out and not following your heart (it sounds cheesy but could not be more true for me).

I am magnetically drawn to medicine--CALLED to it and can't think about doing anything else. I wish I'd been mature enough and had enough self-confidence to do this as a younger person, but I wasn't. That's that, I have accepted it and have moved on and am doing it now.

I think if you're ready and HAPPILY willing to accept the opportunity costs--retirement income lost, nights of sleep lost, loss of feeling like an
expert--that others have mentioned and you know you would regret at least not trying, what more do you have to lose?

Don't do it if you feel that worrying about retirement funds, having to deal with working months of night shifts, and taking direction from people with far fewer years of health care experience is going to grate your nerves so hard that you hate the process of becoming a physician, even if you'd still really enjoy the outcome. We're talking about the better part of a decade of your life, so you need to be sure you're going to enjoy the ride!
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Thank you for responding. Yes we are in a similar boat. Happy to know other NPs are out there and feel the same as I do. My colleagues (NP/PA) tell me not to do it. So I’ve stopped talking about it with them.
But I would regret not doing it. When I’m retired and have a lot of time to think... I would ask myself, “why didn't you do it.”

I am not worried about the lost income/ 401K, I do realize that I will lose 7 figures to do it and it isn’t a positive. But I’m not doing this for money. I am also not worried about working nights or long hours (that is what I’m doing now... sometimes 24 hour shifts) I really don’t care about reporting to younger people, it is not permanent.
I want to do it for my brain and my career satisfaction. I’m grateful that my husband has a good job and is supportive.

Why didn’t I do it in my 20’s? I had the grades and wanted to. I was taking the same classes as the premed students (physics, chemistry classes, biology etc). However, in the 90’s (in my conservative state) I didn’t know any female doctors or any female premed students. I went to a very conservative-private-religious school. I was told I couldn’t be a good mom and be a doctor. So I didn’t do it. Now I have a lot of female doctor friends; that are great moms!! I have been a good mom, my kids are older and now I can do this for myself. I could have done both concurrently but can’t rewind time.
 
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Pagan FutureDoc said:
I’m close to your age and getting close to finishing up my MD, to be honest in your situation I couldn’t recommend it. You aren’t too old but you’ve got to look at the years of NP salary you’d be giving up and you’ve got to be realistic about what kind of practice you’d have coming out of residency. How many years are you going to be able to work? I know personally I hope to have 25 but that means working till I’m 75. Not everyone is going to want to do that.
it’s a massive investment in time and money, I wasn’t coming from a decent job in healthcare. So, it was easier for me to decide to go back to school and eventually into medicine.
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Pagan FutureDoc said:
I’m close to your age and getting close to finishing up my MD, to be honest in your situation I couldn’t recommend it. You aren’t too old but you’ve got to look at the years of NP salary you’d be giving up and you’ve got to be realistic about what kind of practice you’d have coming out of residency. How many years are you going to be able to work? I know personally I hope to have 25 but that means working till I’m 75. Not everyone is going to want to do that.
it’s a massive investment in time and money, I wasn’t coming from a decent job in healthcare. So, it was easier for me to decide to go back to school and eventually into medicine.
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Are you finishing Med school? Or residency? Which residency are you doing?
The lost income is not exciting but my husband has his own investment firm and can help me with Med school and retirement.
 
rc343 said:
Are you finishing Med school? Or residency? Which residency are you doing?
The lost income is not exciting but my husband has his own investment firm and can help me with Med school and retirement.
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I would want to do EM as my first choice. Realistic?
 
I am a non traditional student and was forced to retake prerequisites as you have done (not for grade reasons but because so much time had elapsed). I took CHEM 101/102 (Inorganic I and II) concurrently in the spring semester, and took organic chemistry I and II and physics I and II with lab over the summer. I saved the fall for a few biology electives and biochemistry. I pulled it off with ease. You can absolutely finish the prerequisites within 12 months.
 
DNAJB6 said:
I am a non traditional student and was forced to retake prerequisites as you have done (not for grade reasons but because so much time had elapsed). I took CHEM 101/102 (Inorganic I and II) concurrently in the spring semester, and took organic chemistry I and II and physics I and II with lab over the summer. I saved the fall for a few biology electives and biochemistry. I pulled it off with ease. You can absolutely finish the prerequisites within 12 months.
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Thank you so much!
 
rc343 said:
Are you finishing Med school? Or residency? Which residency are you doing?
The lost income is not exciting but my husband has his own investment firm and can help me with Med school and retirement.
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I’m finishing up med school. I’m looking at doing an IM residency and an ID fellowship hopefully.
it certainly sounds like you’ve looked at the financial side of things and that a big consideration at our age.
 
rc343 said:
Thank you for responding. Yes we are in a similar boat. Happy to know other NPs are out there and feel the same as I do. My colleagues (NP/PA) tell me not to do it. So I’ve stopped talking about it with them.
But I would regret not doing it. When I’m retired and have a lot of time to think... I would ask myself, “why didn't you do it.”

I am not worried about the lost income/ 401K, I do realize that I will lose 7 figures to do it and it isn’t a positive. But I’m not doing this for money. I am also not worried about working nights or long hours (that is what I’m doing now... sometimes 24 hour shifts) I really don’t care about reporting to younger people, it is not permanent.
I want to do it for my brain and my career satisfaction. I’m grateful that my husband has a good job and is supportive.

Why didn’t I do it in my 20’s? I had the grades and wanted to. I was taking the same classes as the premed students (physics, chemistry classes, biology etc). However, in the 90’s (in my conservative state) I didn’t know any female doctors or any female premed students. I went to a very conservative-private-religious school. I was told I couldn’t be a good mom and be a doctor. So I didn’t do it. Now I have a lot of female doctor friends; that are great moms!! I have been a good mom, my kids are older and now I can do this for myself. I could have done both concurrently but can’t rewind time.
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Yep, I have avoided talking about this at work for those reasons specifically--namely, a lot of negative projection for reasons that I am sure have nothing to do with me (I'm a pretty private person, so most people at my workplace know me only superficially). The only people who know I'm doing this are my husband and my physics group-mate for this semester. I don't need a lot of external validation/motivation, so it suits me best to keep this under wraps until things are less hypothetical (i.e. pre-reqs and MCAT done) and I can actually assess my chances.

I'm sorry that people steered you away from medicine back in the day when you would have been a more traditional student--I know tons of physicians who are great moms AND great docs.

I'm glad that you have the financial security to be able to pursue this. I think making sure the stars are aligned in the other aspects of your life is really important. As I mentioned, my dad did this later in life and he had a lot of challenges (kids, small business) that I don't have, so I'm grateful for lifestyle choices I've made that (serendipitously) have set me up well.

You should come over to the non-traditional forum! There are many 40-somethings in health care like us over there.
 
Fidelio17 said:
I mean, really... if you go to school full time, do summer gen chem (fit 2 semesters into 8 weeks), followed by a year in which you do O chem & physics/cell biology (plus anything else you might need), self study biochem for the MCAT, take the MCAT early summer & apply... you could do prerequisites in a year. Then another year to apply. That's 2 years to starting medical school.

I did this, but I added biochem & stats in the fall of my application year because a few of the schools I applied to required biochem & 2 semesters of math. The only science prereq I had when I started was a semester of calculus.
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Fidelio17 said:
I mean, really... if you go to school full time, do summer gen chem (fit 2 semesters into 8 weeks), followed by a year in which you do O chem & physics/cell biology (plus anything else you might need), self study biochem for the MCAT, take the MCAT early summer & apply... you could do prerequisites in a year. Then another year to apply. That's 2 years to starting medical school.

I did this, but I added biochem & stats in the fall of my application year because a few of the schools I applied to required biochem & 2 semesters of math. The only science prereq I had when I started was a semester of calculus.
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I missed this post when you posted it. Thanks for your response.

Did you work or did you go to school full time?
 
The first summer, just school. I added some very part time evening teaching (~8hrs a week) the first fall, as well as tutoring & TAing on campus. I did those through the first spring, then stopped the on campus work & kept the evening teaching (it was decent money for the limited hours, & I enjoyed it). I took the MCAT & applied to med school the second summer, & also got hired full time as a nursing assistant. I did that 40 hours a week, kept my part time evening gig, & finished up my last 6 credits the second fall while interviewing. (It was not a fun fall.) I kept both jobs through spring, & resigned about a month before med school started to give myself some transition time to move & settle in.

I took out the full amount of federal loans I could & used some savings from my last job to finance that year I wasn't working full time. It was tight, but it worked out.
 
As I posted in another thread: your total lost earning potential by making this switch is over 1 million dollars assuming you worked as hard as an NP as you would as a med student/resident. You’d also be near retirement as an attending making your future earning potential slim. Totally not worth it.
 
Tenk said:
As I posted in another thread: your total lost earning potential by making this switch is over 1 million dollars assuming you worked as hard as an NP as you would as a med student/resident. You’d also be near retirement as an attending making your future earning potential slim. Totally not worth it.
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I agree! It would definitely be more than a million dollars. However, what if money isn’t the only variable I am considering? What about depth of knowledge, job satisfaction and accomplishing a life long goal? When I’m done with school, I could make up for it with a higher salary.

If my income isn’t the primary income in my family, does that change your assessment? Appreciate the advice.
 
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rc343 said:
I agree! It would definitely more than a million dollars. However, what if money isn’t the only variable I am considering? What about depth of knowledge, job satisfaction and accomplishing a life long goal? When I’m done with school, I could make up for it with a higher salary.

If my income isn’t the primary income in my family, does that change your assessment? Appreciate the advice.
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My opportunity cost going from an AA to medical school was also ~1 million, but my only bar was to make sure I at least broke even before retirement. I’ll probably end up being net positive. Beyond that, to me the cost of regret was a lot higher than the financial cost.
 
Endee said:
My opportunity cost going from an AA to medical school was also ~1 million, but my only bar was to make sure I at least broke even before retirement. I’ll probably end up being net positive. Beyond that, to me the cost of regret was a lot higher than the financial cost.
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Agree 100%!
 
I am totally jaded. Yet I am actually inspired by what you’re trying to do. If you believe this is right for you, your loved ones and your future patients, please go and follow through with it!

Good luck.
 
rc343 said:
I agree! It would definitely more than a million dollars. However, what if money isn’t the only variable I am considering? What about depth of knowledge, job satisfaction and accomplishing a life long goal? When I’m done with school, I could make up for it with a higher salary.

If my income isn’t the primary income in my family, does that change your assessment? Appreciate the advice.
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No. You’re right money isn’t everything. If you have a family, try working 60-80 hour weeks right now and see how that feels. Then imagine doing that for 7 years. When I was in med school I was single, it was fine, nobody’s life depended on me. My hat is off to anyone in med school with family, I wouldn’t do it. Throw in being 44 with a career and I definitely wouldn’t do it. This all boils down to: what’s more important to you: yourself or your family?
 
Tenk said:
No. You’re right money isn’t everything. If you have a family, try working 60-80 hour weeks right now and see how that feels. Then imagine doing that for 7 years. When I was in med school I was single, it was fine, nobody’s life depended on me. My hat is off to anyone in med school with family, I wouldn’t do it. Throw in being 44 with a career and I definitely wouldn’t do it. This all boils down to: what’s more important to you: yourself or your family?
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Thanks for your perspective. I really appreciate it. It is hard when people tell you not to do it when you really want to. But I understand we have different perspectives.

I didn’t go when I was younger BECAUSE of my family. I couldn’t imagine doing it with young children, so I didn’t. Also, in my conservative community, everyone told me “women can’t do it with kids.” Back then, I didn’t know a female physician. By the time I start, my children will be in college. It’s now or never for me.
 
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rc343 said:
Thanks for your perspective. I really appreciate it. It is hard when people tell you not to do it when you really want to. But I understand we have different perspectives.

I didn’t go when I was younger BECAUSE of my family. I couldn’t imagine doing it with young children, so I didn’t. Also, in my conservative community, everyone told me “women can’t do it with kids.” Back then, I didn’t know a female physician. By the time I start, my children will be in college. It’s now or never for me.
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Well, more power to you. I hope you find what you’re looking for.
 
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