Non-traditional student needs guidance here :)

[Midoritori]

So I am 34. I graduated in a completely different major..11 years ago. So I have a BA. I had 3.8 GPA. Only took one intro to Psych course but minored in Philosophy with lots of courses to do with the mind.

I have volunteer experience working with trauma victims working the hotline for a bit call center that deals with rape and abused women and children.

At any rate here is what I'm looking to do:

1) I would like work with individuals with marriage, life, grief, sexual abuse/ trauma, OCD, anxiety, depression. Really all areas but not intensely with more complex patients such as schizophrenia etc although I have no problem at all working with more complex clients while in graduate school.

2) I would like to provide holistic therapy encompassing different approaches and not only those offered in standard counseling. I would like to include psychoanalysis and psychodynamic therapy (as well as other approaches that are deemed helpful to the patient).

3) I would like to open my own practice and feel I have a great support group for this as many family members own their own businesses. It is something I feel would suit me best. I also have children being able to have flexible hours is a important to me but I know this may not be the case both during grad school and after for a bit especially when/ if building my business. But even having flexibility down the line in the distant future is a wonderful thing as well.

4) I solely want to provide therapy. I do not want to teach. I'm on the fence about research. I on one hand would love to conduct studies (more biologically driven instead of social). But really I want to be 90% of the time providing therapy to clients and once in a blue moon either me myself or partnering up with other research psychologists to research an idea as they come. This would be my ideal situation. 90%/10%. Or 80/20.

5) I hate to talk about money but it has to be factored in. I have looked at a career in counseling. On average it paid 30-50k. We have many kids to put through school among other expenses so really having a career that starts in at 70k (that I've seen for most psychology doctorate degree jobs) is important to me.

6) I have kids and the one thing that's hard for me is if I do a PhD to pay for it I'd have to work for them during the day THEN also take classes AND study. I feel this would leave zero time left for my family. I know each is different but for us this would be hard. We have no family in the area to help.

So here are my questions:

1) I know people with Masters in psych can not get licensed where I live to be psychologists. But if they do therapy what do they make even? Where can they work? Can they open their own practice?

2) Should I go for PsyD or PhD? PhD I can get stipend and tuition paid for but at a cost: being there like 40 hours a week or more on campus. PsyD you just study but have great debt.

My question is for PhD, can you make a deal to work for them for a few years POST-GRADUATING from PhD program to pay off your debt?

3) Should I get the masters first to get into a PhD program? They "say" you don't need masters but maybe it helps??


Thanks so much! ANd guidance is SO appreciated.

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[GoPokes]

So, it seems like everything you would like to do on your list can be done with a master's degree. Regarding salary, I imagine that is largely dependent on where you live and how saturated that market is. You can check the dept of labor statistics or a quick google search should be able to help you get a rough idea.

My thoughts on your questions:

1. You can work in a variety of settings. Probably too many to list, really. I do believe that in some (all? not sure) states you could practice independently.

2. I wouldn't necessarily say that all PsyD programs come with large debt -- see Baylor, Rutgers, etc. You would still need a large time commitment in a PsyD program I would imagine.

3. Not sure about the work to pay off your debt thing. Haven't finished my degree yet, so I'm not sure.

4. Given that you don't have an undergraduate degree in psychology, a master's degree first is probably your best bet. Although I suppose I'm not seeing why you would need a doctoral degree for anything that you've listed that you want to do.

 

[ClinicalABA]

1. Masters in psych tend not to be licensable in most jurisdictions. Masters level licensing is available usually through social work or mental health counseling masters programs. As go pokes mentioned, these clinicians work in a variety of clinical settings (outpatient clinics, hospitals, schools, etc.). On the whole,money make less than doctoral level clinicians, but the time and cost of attaining licensure are often much less. You can find median incomes for social workers and other masters level clinicians online.

2. Depends on what you want to do, as not all programs of one degree type prepare you for everything. If your goal is to be a practitioner, you'd be served well by any good ph.d. or psy.d. program. Ph.d. Programs tend to be harder to get into, but may be substantially less expensive. On the whole, there are more bad, even predatory, psy.d. programs out there, so if you go that route be careful and do you research, looking at things like internship statistics, EPPP pass rates, and attrition (search these boards if you don't know what these things are). You should expect to work hard in any good doctoral program, with little to no ability to keep your day job (you'll be doing practicum and gaining clinical hours required for internship and licensure). Any program that says you can "earn your doctorate in the evenings from the comfort of your own home" is highly unlikely to qualify you for licensure, yet highly likely to cost you way more than it should.

I have never seen a "work off your debt for a few years" scenario.

3. Depends on your goals and qualifications. Masters can fill some of the gaps in your experience, but it may also add a year or two (with tuition) to the whole process, as not all (and in some cases few) of your credits will transfer over. Some masters (see above) may qualify you for licensing, but may actually transfer less credits into a clinical psych doctorate program.

Overall, your goals are attainable through earning a doctorate in clinical psych. It is a long process, and you are starting from scratch. There are no short cuts. Your looking at around five years of full-time plus schooling,mourning which your earning potential will be low, and non-related full time jobs impossible. Then you'll have a year pre-doctoral and year post-doctoral internship/supervised work before you're licensed eligible. 75k is mid-career avg salary- expect to start lower. Going the non-funded psyd route may lead to 6 figure debt.

I'm not trying to crush a dream here- if you can, go for it. It's a pretty cool job! I just want to give you the realities of it all.

 

[entitlement]

Yeah, in terms of making a "deal" to pay off your PhD later, I have also never heard of that and very doubtful such a program exists, at least in the U.S. However, many federal positions (e.g., VA, prisons) do have benefit packages that include loan repayment (although from reading posts from others here, this is not across the board, which is what I originally thought. The National Health Service Corps also offers loan repayment if you work in underserved areas. Some states (e.g., CA) have loan repayment programs as well to work in underserved areas. Might not be applicable to you but if you work in a position that involves at least 50% research, you can also apply for the NIH's Loan Repayment Program. However, note that all these options (federal jobs included) are very competitive and not guaranteed whatsoever.

 

[singasongofjoy]

If you primarily want to do therapy, what about LCSW? Is that not a viable option for you in your state? Well-trained social workers can do a really wide variety of stuff. It sounds like most of what you want to do you could do with a master's like others have said, but sure what the situation is in your geographic area. It would be a heck of a lot easier to maintain some sort of regular (although maybe part-time) well-paying job going that route.

I think in any reputable PhD or PsyD program any concept of keeping another job, even a 20 hr week part time job, is practically impossible. Unlike undergrad classes, graduate classes are generally offered just once per semester (or even year) and you have to take them when they are offered- you def can't count on having early morning or evening classes to accommodate other demands on your time. Most (maybe all now that I think of it) recent PhD and PsyD grads were working in school-related stuff (studying, classes, practica etc) at minimum 60 hours per week on average, with probably a paid practicum or TA/RA/GA position to provide tuition and a (small!) stipend. Internship pay is not that high either- generally 20-30k. For my friends who have done postdocs after internship, average pay is 40-50k. But you've got to factor in those years of little pay and little to no ability to have an outside job. Not impossible- several folks in my lab had kids- but it is important to go into the decision having as much info as possible about likely funding/finance factors as well as time demands to determine what path will work best for your family. Speaking to time demands, from my own and my colleagues' experiences, doctoral programs are way more time intense than masters programs- prob spent 40 hours a week on master's related stuff including writing / studying at home, but when I got to a doctoral program a few year later, it averaged 60-85 hours every week depending on the semester. Some of that was working at home but a lot was on campus.

Good luck w/ your decision making process!

 

[Midoritori]

Thanks for your replies!

In terms of work I am ok to do nothing but study etc and not hold any other part time job outside of working for university. But with that said, 60 hours + a week I cannot do with kids. That is too hard.

But as far as a masters, I feel it only pays 30k a year and this feels it's not worth the amount spent on the degree.

With a masters in Psych can I work as a therapist? I can't be licensed though right? I'm in VA. I thought you had to get counselor degree to get licensed but masters in psych gets you nothing. Anyone know the scoop on this?

 

[ClinicalABA]

Thanks for your replies!

In terms of work I am ok to do nothing but study etc and not hold any other part time job outside of working for university. But with that said, 60 hours + a week I cannot do with kids. That is too hard.

But as far as a masters, I feel it only pays 30k a year and this feels it's not worth the amount spent on the degree.

With a masters in Psych can I work as a therapist? I can't be licensed though right? I'm in VA. I thought you had to get counselor degree to get licensed but masters in psych gets you nothing. Anyone know the scoop on this?

The state will have established criteria for determining whether or no the masters program will qualify you for licensure. As an example, check out some of the links here for some of the requirement in VA: https://www.dhp.virginia.gov/counseling/counseling_laws_regs.htm

Ultimately, what's important is the coursework and number of credits. Masters in general psych tend not to prepare you for licensure at the masters level. If they did, I'd assume they would publicize that on their website.

 

[Harry3990]

I think an LCSW would likely best fit your situation. You can go into private practice and do therapy. You can make much more than 30k per year as an LCSW. This is an outlier for sure, but I know an experienced/specialized LCSW in private practice who makes 100k+. The median according to the OOH is ~46k. I'd guess that that's probably lumping in non-clinical social workers as well, who typically make less than LCSWs.

http://www.bls.gov/ooh/community-and-social-service/social-workers.htm#tab-5

Also, much less time in the degree (18-24 months) compared to PsyD/PhD (5-6 years). Another thing that you're not really accounting for when preferring a doctorate in clinical psychology is that you will be required to work 16-20 hours per week at practicums as well. That's in addition to taking full course loads and studying. If you're in a PhD program with an assistantship and stipend, add another 10-20 hours onto that. You will likely be required to do clinical work in an MSW program as well for 10-20 hours per week, just FYI.

Regardless, accepting that these degrees may end up requiring more than 40 hours per week of your time might in your best interest. I'm sure there are exceptions, but this is likely negatively effecting the quality of any training that does not require ongoing clinical experience as a requirement of the program.

 

[CheetahGirl]

‎I agree with others, and I have some to add.

With the limitations that the OP‎ has stated, an LCSW (while residing in Virginia) seems more doable than attempting all that is needed to be competitive for a doctoral program (Probably not what the OP wants to hear)...especially if relocation for doctoral training is not possible.

I agree with the others when they say doctoral training was >45hrs per week, for the first 3 years...at the very least (45-60 hrs is realistic). I had young kids when I started my program, and it was very difficult‎. I treated my doctoral training like a full-time (8am -5pm) job, had major support from my spouse, family (mainly my Mom who lived with us on and off b/c she was retired), a wonderful Nanny, babysitters, and a great daycare. My kids' care was priority (even though I did not want to be a stay-home Mom...it's better for everyone when I'm busy and organized), but the work had to also be a priority as it becomes a delicate balance (in addition to not neglecting my relationships, esp. my marriage)...so this all tore me different directions consistently but we (my team) managed to make it all work...for >5 yrs. THEN, I had the same work as my colleagues (as I should, a‎nd most of them were unmarried without children‎) as we all struggled, found the work compelling, and endured such a steep learning curve.

I also went to a fully-funded program, so during my first 3 years, I worked as an RA (about 20 hrs per week) during the academic year, in addition to clinical externships, and coursework). After my 5pm end of the day (which was usually 5pm when I could head home), I would have dinner my family, put kids to bed/after their homework, and would usually stay up late at night or wake up at 3am to read, write, etc. This was my personal sacrifice b/c I wanted this doctorate really, really badly. After coursework (so 4th year), I took time off to work on my dissertation, but maintained a clinical placement, and still maintained a 'working parent schedule' despite not earning. In fact, I did not contribute financially until internship and then I made a whopping $27K (didn't even dent our nanny's salary, but I was fortunate enough to have a business-minded husband who could cushion my financial deficit).
‎
There are many, many differences between an LCSW and PhD/PsyD in clinical/counseling doctorate. However, with the end-goals that Midoritori de‎scribed, you could be a mental health provider, receive training in effective interventions, and offer supportive psychotherapy with an LCSW. In fact, in my domestic violence volunter program, most of employed service providers are LCSWs.

I'm certainly not saying that you cannot successfully gain entrance into a doctoral program with all the factors you mentioned Midoritori, but there's a whole lot of sacrifice that you and your family will have to endure if you decide to pursue this goal. I worked as clinical research coordinator at an AMC for about 10yrs prior to doctoral training (I was published through my research teams), I earned a general psych MA during the evenings (but before I had kids) while I worked full-time, but still had difficulty gaining admission until my‎ 2nd time around (which was disheartening, until I landed acceptance...all that work going down the tubes...oh no...it can't be!!).

So, in full-(anonymous) disclosure‎, I share this with you now (in addition, to all my past disclosures on SDN over the past +7 years, as things were unfolding), to offer an honest perspective of what you are getting into BEFORE you commit time, money, blood, sweat, tears, etc. with hopes that you'll understand more about this process. I was also in my early 30s when I began my program, so was a non-traditional student. I graduated with some manageable debt but it was from my general masters that I earned as a 'resume builder' to become more competitive for doctoral programs (BTW...pretty frustrating that only 6 credits were transfer, which is typically the norm, and I picked up a 2nd Masters along with the PhD...)

However, I do not regret any of it. I have four kids now (had two more while in my program), and I am constantly reminded how I am a freak of nature, so to speak.‎ And guess what, I'm still not done (I'm a postdoc with license pending).

Think about why this particular career goal, and why now? (Opposed to before...b/c you will be asked, or may feel compelled to share when ot‎hers look at you like 'WTW...why didn't you apply out of undergrad, before kids, when life was more simply and perhaps kind?')
‎
‎My (kind of) mantra is 'there's no BS with me' because as busy family woman and a professional‎, nobody's got time for it.‎

Regardless of the path‎, good luck on your journey. It is amazing what we can accomplish when we focus on our goals.‎
‎

 

[CheetahGirl]

Wait...this should be on the Friday thread.

 

[Midoritori]

Hello guys!

Thanks again for all your replies.

Oh I"m so torn!

So a few questions:

1) I hate to make things seem like they are all about money. It's not- I think counseling people as a psych or counselor is an incredibly important job. But it has to be asked. As an LPC will I actually make above 50k? My dream is to open a private practice or a small practice.

2) LPSW vs LPC. I feel the social worker route deals more with cases, usually people given to us by the state? Is this correct?

3) If I become a counselor for the next 5-10 years while my children grow up and leave the home, if I decide to go back to pursue a PhD will counseling count naturally towards "experience" needed for counseling psychology?

Thanks everyone! One of the hardest decisions.

 

[entitlement]

1) Depends on where you will be practicing. I was making more than 50k as an unlicensed master's level counselor and could have made up to $75k if I was licensed in the same position. This was in a major metropolitan area though. if you are in private practice you could make more money but there is risk.

2) Not necessarily true. LCSW and LPC can be interchangeable in many advertised positions. Many positions I come across accept LCSW, LPC, or LMFTs. There are of course nuances between an LCSW and a LPC. Read more at the National Association of Social Workers and the National Board for Certified Counselors (or something like that, can't recall the name off the topic of my head now). Also, post in the other forums on here that have to do with social work to get an understanding of the work those folks do. You will get more detailed information there than here.

3) You mean experience for a Counseling Psych PhD? It will almost certainly look good for your application but if you mean you could transfer credits and/or experience (against practicum hours for instance) then no, that won't happen. You might wan't to consider a LCSW if this is what you are trying to do. Many PhDs in Social Work/Social Welfare allow you to come in with a Master's completed. Seem even actually require you to have a MSW before you can apply. This would be a good route if you might be interested in doing research later. Not the route if all you care about is a clinical career.

 

[PsyDr]

In regards to your general comments:

1) You'll need a broad range of education
2) The term "holisitic" is often short hand for bad science. Psychoanalysis requires an extra 2 years of coursework and approximately 2-4 years of supervised practice after independent license. Due to the commitment of training, it is rarely a random tool that is sometimes used.
3) Private practice does offer greater flexibility for scheduling. Most patients' want to be scheduled at exactly when you'd want to be free.
4) Easy enough to do this, so long as you work for it.
5) Money is pretty easy to figure out. This is a fee for service business. The more you work, the more you get paid. There is a limit to the rate that any given market will support. Practitioners with excellent credentials can obtain slightly higher fees.
6) Yeah, there is a time commitment. Everyone gets to decide how they want to dedicate their time, and the consequences thereof. See #s 3-5.

In regards to your specific questions:

1) Who can open what depends on your state's laws. Where MA level people can work depends on the state laws. How much they make depends on if they are an employee or fee for service.
2) You are wildly misinformed about how the education of a PsyD works. You should be able to do a basic web search to clear this up.
3) Depends on what you want to do.