NonTraditional Veteran seeking guidance.

[nikeVandal92]

Hey members of SDN, new here, so I will get straight to the point.

I am a 29 year old male soldier in the Army (25N - Network Specialist). I will be starting terminal leave in a couple weeks and will be ready to get back to the civilian world. I have already accepted a job offer as a full-time software engineer in Virginia (home state). I enrolled in online college [University of Maryland Global Campus (UMGC formerly UMUC)] shortly after joining the Army and currently have 27 college credits, current major is Computer Science. I have finished three writing classes, including a high level writing course, I have completed my math courses (B in Calc 1, A in Calc 2), and a few other general education classes, current GPA is 3.3. I plan on transferring to George Mason University because that is the area of where my job is located. Just wondering the struggle, if any, I will have to endure or should worry about while getting started at the age of 29, working full time, no wife/girlfriend, no kids. I am completely independent and doing my own thing. No clinical experience and no pre-reqs done, except calculus which I know a fair amount of medical schools don't require but does satisfy the math requirement for med schools that do have a math requirement. How should I balance my course load with consideration to my full time job and need for clinical experience? I know Computer Science has a low average GPA overall and was contemplating on making the switch to a Biology major. Of course I will have the Post 9/11 GI Bill on top of my full time job, so no financial undergrad stress. By the way, I am not going into this blind, I have done my homework on everything... pre-reqs, GPA, MCAT, ECs/clinical exp, MD vs DO, etc.. I would really appreciate thoughts/advice/similar stories, please share and thank you.

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[petomed]

Thank you for your service.

First thing on your list should be ensuring medical school is the right career for you. You mention that you've done your homework however you also say you have no clinical experience. This is where you should start because, while medicine does seem like a noble profession and you'll generally be working to help improve peoples lives, it isn't all rainbows and butterflies. You will be in situations where you're just about torturing people because it's hospital policy, you'll have patients literally lashing out at you, lawsuits, slow and painful death, and everything in-between. Clinical experience, specifically prolonged clinical experience in the trenches--ER, underserved primary care, even the soup kitchen--are where you'll meet your challenging patient populations and administrative cracks. If you can handle this crowd then you can handle most anything you'll encounter during training and practice. This is why admissions committees are looking for those experiences, as well as whether or not you outwardly appear like a caring human being. Additionally, you need good letter's of recommendation and clinical experiences will be very important in obtaining these. Moral of the story, spend minimal money and time on transitioning into the pre-med path until you have some meaningful clinical experiences. These will allow you to either dig your heals in on the path or run in the opposite direction. Neither are wrong.

As for being 29, that's not a disadvantage. You've had great life experiences and have been part of a team-oriented cause, where you've sacrificed personally for the 'greater good'. That's part of what it means to be a medical student, resident, and practicing physician--so you're likely much further ahead than most pre-med's.

Please take full advantage of not having a significant other or children at this time. While having them in the future may weigh on your mind right now, you will be able to accomplish much more on your pre-med pursuit without them right now. I say that as someone who began like you in this way but became married and started a family during their pre-med path. All told, I'd say 'family' requires ~20 hours of my waking time on a weekly basis. This is absolutely worth it, but those are 20 hours less for sleeping, studying, or volunteering. For you, that would translate to being able to take at least one less course each semester while working full-time as a pre-med. Or getting three fewer hours sleep each night.

Your current GPA is no problem. If this is the point in time at which you're considering yourself as a pre-med, then I would begin to take more seriously each class you take. No one is going to knock you for the B in Calc 1, however you should aim for straight A's in all classes from here on out. Medical schools don't care if you are an engineering undergrad, PhD in theoretical physics, or majored in basket-weaving. They want to see excellence in academics. Period. I say that coming from a 5+ year post-grad career in mechanical engineering.

Then you can begin your coursework, which should include the following to make you eligible for most any US MD/DO school:

bio I-II (8 credits)
phys I-II (8 credits)
chem I-II (8 credits)
orgo I-II (8 credits)
biochem I (3 credits)

I would definitely suggest taking the biology sequence first. This is a 180 degrees pivot from what we do in engineering and you need to be sure it's up your alley. This is the first sequence you'll likely take that isn't heavy on the imaginary concepts we so routinely work with in engineering. Rote memorization will become you on this journey and biology is a great segway into that kind of coursework.

These nine courses may take a while to complete while remaining a full-time engineer and you mentioned funding this coursework may not be a problem for you. If that's the case and you don't like the long part-time road, then don't feel bad about hopping into a special 1-yr postbac to clear these courses out. Just be sure medicine is right for you if doing so.

As for balancing clinical experience and coursework, I'd say focus on being 100% sure medicine is right for you right now. Once you can't actually imagine doing anything else with your time, then begin the coursework. I'd suggest reaching out to a local hospital emergency department. They are 24/7 365, perfect for those with a M-F 9-5 job. The hospital should have a volunteer coordinator. Call and do whatever you need to in order to become a volunteer.

Best of luck!

 

[nikeVandal92]

Thank you for your service.

First thing on your list should be ensuring medical school is the right career for you. You mention that you've done your homework however you also say you have no clinical experience. This is where you should start because, while medicine does seem like a noble profession and you'll generally be working to help improve peoples lives, it isn't all rainbows and butterflies. You will be in situations where you're just about torturing people because it's hospital policy, you'll have patients literally lashing out at you, lawsuits, slow and painful death, and everything in-between. Clinical experience, specifically prolonged clinical experience in the trenches--ER, underserved primary care, even the soup kitchen--are where you'll meet your challenging patient populations and administrative cracks. If you can handle this crowd then you can handle most anything you'll encounter during training and practice. This is why admissions committees are looking for those experiences, as well as whether or not you outwardly appear like a caring human being. Additionally, you need good letter's of recommendation and clinical experiences will be very important in obtaining these. Moral of the story, spend minimal money and time on transitioning into the pre-med path until you have some meaningful clinical experiences. These will allow you to either dig your heals in on the path or run in the opposite direction. Neither are wrong.

As for being 29, that's not a disadvantage. You've had great life experiences and have been part of a team-oriented cause, where you've sacrificed personally for the 'greater good'. That's part of what it means to be a medical student, resident, and practicing physician--so you're likely much further ahead than most pre-med's.

Please take full advantage of not having a significant other or children at this time. While having them in the future may weigh on your mind right now, you will be able to accomplish much more on your pre-med pursuit without them right now. I say that as someone who began like you in this way but became married and started a family during their pre-med path. All told, I'd say 'family' requires ~20 hours of my waking time on a weekly basis. This is absolutely worth it, but those are 20 hours less for sleeping, studying, or volunteering. For you, that would translate to being able to take at least one less course each semester while working full-time as a pre-med. Or getting three fewer hours sleep each night.

Your current GPA is no problem. If this is the point in time at which you're considering yourself as a pre-med, then I would begin to take more seriously each class you take. No one is going to knock you for the B in Calc 1, however you should aim for straight A's in all classes from here on out. Medical schools don't care if you are an engineering undergrad, PhD in theoretical physics, or majored in basket-weaving. They want to see excellence in academics. Period. I say that coming from a 5+ year post-grad career in mechanical engineering.

Then you can begin your coursework, which should include the following to make you eligible for most any US MD/DO school:

bio I-II (8 credits)
phys I-II (8 credits)
chem I-II (8 credits)
orgo I-II (8 credits)
biochem I (3 credits)

I would definitely suggest taking the biology sequence first. This is a 180 degrees pivot from what we do in engineering and you need to be sure it's up your alley. This is the first sequence you'll likely take that isn't heavy on the imaginary concepts we so routinely work with in engineering. Rote memorization will become you on this journey and biology is a great segway into that kind of coursework.

These nine courses may take a while to complete while remaining a full-time engineer and you mentioned funding this coursework may not be a problem for you. If that's the case and you don't like the long part-time road, then don't feel bad about hopping into a special 1-yr postbac to clear these courses out. Just be sure medicine is right for you if doing so.

As for balancing clinical experience and coursework, I'd say focus on being 100% sure medicine is right for you right now. Once you can't actually imagine doing anything else with your time, then begin the coursework. I'd suggest reaching out to a local hospital emergency department. They are 24/7 365, perfect for those with a M-F 9-5 job. The hospital should have a volunteer coordinator. Call and do whatever you need to in order to become a volunteer.

Best of luck!

Thank you so much for the advice. I greatly appreciate you taking the time respond in great detail.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Get a clinical job - be it as an EMT or tech or scribe. Doesn't need to be full time, but in addition to the upcoming job... or part time simply in addition to school. You still have about 3 years of school left, maybe 5 given some of your current credits may not apply and don't include the pre-reqs.

You will have the GI Bill or VRE where you'll receive the stipend which will cover your monthly expenses so that you don't need to work full time.

If you want to be a doctor, school should be your focus with volunteering and/or part-time work, preferably clinical as mentioned since that's what lacking. This will give you time to observe and talk to nurses, doctors, PAs, NPs, etc to get a feel for the different positions and see the flow while getting paid.

If you have specific questions, reach out. I'm a Marine vet and used a little bit of GI bill and later VR&E, now a doctor. Glad to help where I can.

 

[MusicDOc124]

Veterans' Benefits

Discussion of veterans benefits

forums.studentdoctor.net

We also have this sub group for vet benefits. Within that group you'll see a few sticky-ed threads including the one in my signature.

 

[futuredoc331]

Hey members of SDN, new here, so I will get straight to the point.

I am a 29 year old male soldier in the Army (25N - Network Specialist). I will be starting terminal leave in a couple weeks and will be ready to get back to the civilian world. I have already accepted a job offer as a full-time software engineer in Virginia (home state). I enrolled in online college [University of Maryland Global Campus (UMGC formerly UMUC)] shortly after joining the Army and currently have 27 college credits, current major is Computer Science. I have finished three writing classes, including a high level writing course, I have completed my math courses (B in Calc 1, A in Calc 2), and a few other general education classes, current GPA is 3.3. I plan on transferring to George Mason University because that is the area of where my job is located. Just wondering the struggle, if any, I will have to endure or should worry about while getting started at the age of 29, working full time, no wife/girlfriend, no kids. I am completely independent and doing my own thing. No clinical experience and no pre-reqs done, except calculus which I know a fair amount of medical schools don't require but does satisfy the math requirement for med schools that do have a math requirement. How should I balance my course load with consideration to my full time job and need for clinical experience? I know Computer Science has a low average GPA overall and was contemplating on making the switch to a Biology major. Of course I will have the Post 9/11 GI Bill on top of my full time job, so no financial undergrad stress. By the way, I am not going into this blind, I have done my homework on everything... pre-reqs, GPA, MCAT, ECs/clinical exp, MD vs DO, etc.. I would really appreciate thoughts/advice/similar stories, please share and thank you.

What kind of doctor do you want to be? Unless you want to be a surgeon*, pathologist, or radiologist I'd strongly urge you to consider PA school. Note, they usually require a few more prereqs than med school, on average. Also, consider taking out loans or paying for undergrad out of pocket and using the GI Bill in graduate school. You should get more bang for your buck that way.

I was a 25B for a while. Went to medical school at 28. Got started on the path at 25 with a wife and kids. You can do it.

 

[gwrightjr90]

What kind of doctor do you want to be? Unless you want to be a surgeon*, pathologist, or radiologist I'd strongly urge you to consider PA school. Note, they usually require a few more prereqs than med school, on average. Also, consider taking out loans or paying for undergrad out of pocket and using the GI Bill in graduate school. You should get more bang for your buck that way.

I was a 25B for a while. Went to medical school at 28. Got started on the path at 25 with a wife and kids. You can do it.

Why do you recommend him to consider PA school?

 

[nikeVandal92]

What kind of doctor do you want to be? Unless you want to be a surgeon*, pathologist, or radiologist I'd strongly urge you to consider PA school. Note, they usually require a few more prereqs than med school, on average. Also, consider taking out loans or paying for undergrad out of pocket and using the GI Bill in graduate school. You should get more bang for your buck that way.

I was a 25B for a while. Went to medical school at 28. Got started on the path at 25 with a wife and kids. You can do it.

I do want to be a surgeon and that is the only thing I want to do. PA school is not an option for me.

 

[futuredoc331]

Why do you recommend him to consider PA school?

Less time in school, less debt, and more flexibility. A PA can complete school in 2 years and work for the next 6 years making between $100k and $150k before the doctor who started at the same exact time would even be out of training. Then if that PA decides they want a different specialty, they just apply for a new job. If the doc decides the same thing, they have to go back and restart a whole new residency at a resident's salary.

 

[futuredoc331]

I do want to be a surgeon and that is the only thing I want to do. PA school is not an option for me.

Do you have to be the one calling all the big shots and doing the most important parts of the surgery? Or would being the one that sees the patient more often and does a lot (sometimes most?) of the surgery still work? You'd be surprised how much PAs do. In CT surgery they harvest the veins themselves, they help open, and close. The surgeon deals with the heart. In other surgeries it's a similar story. Just something to think about.

The PA can switch from Ortho surgery to CT surgery to gen surgery without another residency too. I'm a doc. I'm not trying to dissuade you. I'm just trying to help paint a full picture.

 

[coterra93]

Fellow vet here! Former Corpsman (surgical tech), so I do have clinical hours however that was a few years ago so I am looking into maybe just scribing jobs to fill in those clinical hours needs (Scribe America is one, I'm sure there are more!). If you're trying to shadow surgeons because that's your end goal, I'm not 100% sure that's possible, but feel free to reach out if you've any questions with that type of lifestyle - I have the utmost respect for the surgeons I worked with (except for a few who had anger issues and threw stuff), but it's not a lifestyle to underestimate. If that's truly your passion and you know exactly what being a surgeon entails, please go for it!

I'm just now starting my prereqs at 28yo at UNT, and have mainly been focusing on community volunteering like Feeding the Homeless, some other local groups, and I'm waiting to hear back on volunteering opportunities at my local VA. I'm also looking to do some volunteer work with Soldier's Angels, as they have both in person and virtual opportunities and my end goal is to do primary care at a VA facility (I know that wasn't your question, I just wanted to state that in case someone else might find this info useful)

Also med school doesn't really value any one degree over others - if low GPA is your weak point, you can also look into post-bacc for your prereqs or maybe a graduate degree? You can also switch and do a bio degree if you don't mind the additional years Med school do look at upwards trend - I have a 3.0 GPA for my A.A at community college, currently switching over to a 4 year uni and hoping to ace my semesters there to make up for my 3.0 GPA

I'm not sure what other veteran education benefits other states have. I know for Texas where I'm at, I can tap into my Hazelwood once I deplete my Post 9/11, which is a huge deal because I was planning on working my way thru undergrad and saving my GI Bill for med school, but now I may not have to (no kids, no bf, just a puppy and a little sister who spends way too much on eating out)

Depends on when you're trying to apply for med school, I say you have at least a couple of years to hit those clinical voluneering hours. Except for your usual GPA, MCAT scores, each medical school favors different "niches" (some emphasize rural medicine, others look at lab researches, etc...)

I'm not sure if the VA offer pure clinical voluneering (I haven't asked) but is that something you may look into also?

I wish you the best of luck! And if you ever need some moral support during those late night study sessions and tearing your hair out over MCAT ****, please feel free to reach out! You got this!