Not submitting CC coursework

[146233]

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If this attempt is unsuccessful, you're pretty much stuck. I agree that the AMCAS rules are ******ed and unfair, but the risk of trying to hide something like this is too great. Your whole future could be over before you know it.

The rules aren't "******ed" or "unfair." I mean no disrespect to the OP and I do wish them success, but there are many applicants out there that do not have the academic blemishes we're discussing here (I'd like to reiterate that these are fairly minor blemishes). Medical schools deserve to know that so they can thoroughly evaluate each candidate. A "do over" would be unfair; instead, move on and don't look back.

Just because a rule makes it more difficult and/or less likely for a person to get admitted to medical school doesn't mean that rule is "******ed and unfair." Schools understand early mistakes and this won't be something that keeps the OP out, all other things being equal. ...especially if I'm reviewing their application.

 

[Just Joshin]

I am going to try to get them to remove the grades from my record completely. On the college's website, they give certain prereqs (ie taking a placement exam) before you can take the dual enrollment courses, but I never took the placement exam. Based on that, I should never have been given credit in the first place, and I honestly believe I was not qualified at the time to be taking courses for college credit. I emailed the school earlier this evening, so I guess I will see what happens.

For me, I never had this credit transfered to either of the colleges I have actually attended, so I hope that makes taking care of this problem easier.

Having the grades removed doesn't get rid of your ethical dilemma. AMCAS says you have to report all grades, ****even if they were removed from your record****. They specifically state this so if you don't do it, even if you have them removed, you're still lying and will still be jeopordizing your future.

 

[lrkoehle]

Having the grades removed doesn't get rid of your ethical dilemma. AMCAS says you have to report all grades, ****even if they were removed from your record****. They specifically state this so if you don't do it, even if you have them removed, you're still lying and will still be jeopordizing your future.

You clearly missed my post later last night in which I actually quoted the AMCAS instruction manual's policy on this, which as you said basically states that they must be included. I am not trying to do anything unethical, hence my reading a good portion of the instruction manual to find out the exact rules on this. As I said, I will include it, but I am not happy about it. I really had thought I could avoid my immaturity in high school coming back to bite me in the butt, oh well.

 

[146233]

I really had thought I could avoid my immaturity in high school coming back to bite me in the butt, oh well.

Own it, move on, and don't look back. 🙂

 

[lrkoehle]

Own it, move on, and don't look back. 🙂

That's my plan, but it would be easier to do if I had an acceptance somewhere. It's probably better this way than having messed up freshman year in college. At least now schools will see my "upward trend," which is really just a coupel poor dual enrollment high school grades and then essentially straight A's in actual college.

Anyone in admissions know how poor HS grades would be viewed? Are they kind of ignored or at least considered less relevant?

 

[BTC]

The rules aren't "******ed" or "unfair." I mean no disrespect to the OP and I do wish them success, but there are many applicants out there that do not have the academic blemishes we're discussing here (I'd like to reiterate that these are fairly minor blemishes). Medical schools deserve to know that so they can thoroughly evaluate each candidate. A "do over" would be unfair; instead, move on and don't look back.

Just because a rule makes it more difficult and/or less likely for a person to get admitted to medical school doesn't mean that rule is "******ed and unfair." Schools understand early mistakes and this won't be something that keeps the OP out, all other things being equal. ...especially if I'm reviewing their application.

I'd say the metric by which we are all judged is not the least bit standardized. Its obvious the OP will be assessed on his performance in high school. I was not assessed on my high school performance, were you?

The fact of the matter is that medical schools do not have the resources to scour applications and make a lot of decisions based on pure numbers. And at the end of the day, your GPA is a major component. I know NYU is notorious for this. Some more frequent reasons for lower GPAs are going to be more acceptable.

GPA is not a 1:1 correlation. Medical schools know this but US News doesn't care. They need to keep their stats up too.

OP, if I were you, I'd try to find a way to weave the 'lessons learned' from high school CC into your personal statement or essays. Possibly attach an additional letter with your secondaries. Not all reviewers have the same attention to detail. You could also use the words 'upward trend' so the reviewers will possibly give your transcripts a second look.

 

[lrkoehle]

I'd say the metric by which we are all judged is not the least bit standardized. Its obvious the OP will be assessed on his performance in high school. I was not assessed on my high school performance, were you?

I agree that we should not be judged at all based on what we did in high school, regardless of if CC credit was granted or not. Perhaps I would feel differently though if my B and C were A's, but I doubt it. If I am going to be negatively affected a grade I got in high school, that just happened to be sent to a CC, then why not just send my high school transcripts?

Assuming I am fortunate enough to get one, the second I get an acceptance to a medical school, none of this will matter.

 

[146233]

lrkoehle, all things being equal, you should be fine. The CC courses from high school won't be given the same weight as your other undergraduate courses. I don't think working it in to your PS is a bad idea; might give the committee the heads-up they need to give you an interview. Good luck.

 

[146233]

I'd say the metric by which we are all judged is not the least bit standardized. Its obvious the OP will be assessed on his performance in high school. I was not assessed on my high school performance, were you?

No, but I didn't sign up to take college courses that awarded me credit, either. If I had, I would have been. If one is "mature" (or "thinks it's cool") enough to take college courses while in high school, then they need to be mature enough to accept the possible consequences of suboptimal performance.

By the way, these types of courses will be classified on AMCAS as "High School (HS)," and thus stand out from the rest of the collegiate coursework. Admissions committees will see that; even those with limited resources and attention span.

 

[dmplz]

No, but I didn't sign up to take college courses that awarded me credit, either. If I had, I would have been. If one is "mature" (or "thinks it's cool") enough to take college courses while in high school, then they need to be mature enough to accept the possible consequences of suboptimal performance.

By the way, these types of courses will be classified on AMCAS as "High School (HS)," and thus stand out from the rest of the collegiate coursework. Admissions committees will see that; even those with limited resources and attention span.

See the thing is I NEVER took a college course to get me ahead of the game. I took the equivalent of High-School Chemistry and Algebra II at a community college during the summer just so I can MEET the prereqs to apply to college. I also took a couple of classes for fun but unfortunately, I got a couple of C's and it will definitely hurt me.

 

[arthurg]

By the way, these types of courses will be classified on AMCAS as "High School (HS)," and thus stand out from the rest of the collegiate coursework. Admissions committees will see that; even those with limited resources and attention span.

What about if you didn't do any of that dual-enrollment stuff, does it still count as "High School" on AMCAS?

When I took calculus at CC while I was in HS, it was done in the summer as something indepedent of HS credit. Basically, my mom just signed me up for a calculus class at CC to try and give me a "leg up" for when I actually took the class later. She (nor I for the matter) didn't even know it "counted" (though I know I have to submit it to AMCAS).

Furthermore, are you supposed to report those pre-undergrad CC courses to your undergrad, or does it not matter? I never did, and ended up taking calculus in college anyway b/c I though the CC stuff didn't count.

 

[146233]

What about if you didn't do any of that dual-enrollment stuff, does it still count as "High School" on AMCAS?

Yes.

Furthermore, are you supposed to report those pre-undergrad CC courses to your undergrad, or does it not matter? I never did, and ended up taking calculus in college anyway b/c I though the CC stuff didn't count.

That's between you and your undergrad. 🙂

 

[146233]

See the thing is I NEVER took a college course to get me ahead of the game. I took the equivalent of High-School Chemistry and Algebra II at a community college during the summer just so I can MEET the prereqs to apply to college. I also took a couple of classes for fun but unfortunately, I got a couple of C's and it will definitely hurt me.

Mark it as HS on your AMCAS. I wouldn't count yourself out at all.

 

[scarletgirl777]

That's between you and your undergrad. 🙂

To add to that, my undergrad had zero interest in whatever college coursework I'd had before. Often, these things are not transferable, so there's no reason to report it. But AMCAS does not care about transferability (sp????)

 

[146233]

To add to that, my undergrad had zero interest in whatever college coursework I'd had before. Often, these things are not transferable, so there's no reason to report it. But AMCAS does not care about transferability (sp????)

No, AMCAS doesn't care; their rules are pretty explicit.

 

[lrkoehle]

lrkoehle, all things being equal, you should be fine. The CC courses from high school won't be given the same weight as your other undergraduate courses. I don't think working it in to your PS is a bad idea; might give the committee the heads-up they need to give you an interview. Good luck.

Good to know they won't give it as much weight, which is what I hoped. I don't think I am even going to mention it in my PS, because I don't know how I could fit that in without taking away from the rest of it. Plus, the C is very clearly in high school a year before I graduated, so it doesn't matter THAT much that I would feel a need to include it.

No, but I didn't sign up to take college courses that awarded me credit, either. If I had, I would have been. If one is "mature" (or "thinks it's cool") enough to take college courses while in high school, then they need to be mature enough to accept the possible consequences of suboptimal performance.

By the way, these types of courses will be classified on AMCAS as "High School (HS)," and thus stand out from the rest of the collegiate coursework. Admissions committees will see that; even those with limited resources and attention span.

I didn't choose to take college courses either. My damn parents thought it would be a great way to get a head start, yeah, great f***ing head start.

The adcoms will see a science, all other, and total GPA for each year in school as well as cummulatively right?

 

[student1799]

The rules aren't "******ed" or "unfair." I mean no disrespect to the OP and I do wish them success, but there are many applicants out there that do not have the academic blemishes we're discussing here (I'd like to reiterate that these are fairly minor blemishes). Medical schools deserve to know that so they can thoroughly evaluate each candidate. A "do over" would be unfair; instead, move on and don't look back.

Just because a rule makes it more difficult and/or less likely for a person to get admitted to medical school doesn't mean that rule is "******ed and unfair." Schools understand early mistakes and this won't be something that keeps the OP out, all other things being equal. ...especially if I'm reviewing their application.

No, you misunderstand my objection. I find the AMCAS rules to be unfair because a student's performance on courses they took in high school has absolutely no relevance to their fitness for medical school or the medical profession. And, as far as I know, medical schools are the only professional schools which insist on the reporting of such grades. When I applied to business school years ago, they didn't ask to see grades I got when I was 14. Why should med schools be different? There's absolutely no valid educational rationale for this.

Furthermore, HS students are almost never told that the grades in college courses they take may have implications for their future. Instead, the scenario is generally like the OP's: the student innocently takes a class or two, often with the encouragement of parents or teachers, and then finds out years later that it will hurt their med school GPA. Moreover, if students are properly informed about this, they'll be scared off from trying anything adventurous educationally, for fear of getting a bad grade and ruining their futures. The message being conveyed is "Don't try anything new unless you're sure you're going to be perfect at it." Way to go, AMCAS!

So yes, I call that "******ed" and "unfair."

 

[atomi]

Would CC really eliminate those grades?

Not 'officially.'

Re-read my post again. I'm just saying that connections go a long way, and connections are a lot more common at a place like the CC.

 

[atomi]

Having the grades removed doesn't get rid of your ethical dilemma. AMCAS says you have to report all grades, ****even if they were removed from your record****. They specifically state this so if you don't do it, even if you have them removed, you're still lying and will still be jeopordizing your future.

If a rule is unethical, then is it ethical to follow it?

 

[atomi]

Moreover, if students are properly informed about this, they'll be scared off from trying anything adventurous educationally, for fear of getting a bad grade and ruining their futures. The message being conveyed is "Don't try anything new unless you're sure you're going to be perfect at it." Way to go, AMCAS!

So yes, I call that "******ed" and "unfair."

Totally agree. You end up with a bunch of neurotic premeds obsessed with getting 140% on every assignment and having a nervous breakdown when they get a B on a chemistry lab pop quiz. They are afraid of doing anything different for fear of failure (grades less than A+). They are afraid of doing anything social because it takes away from study time and jeopardizes their 4.3 GPA. It completely undermines the point of college (to explore, learn, and grow). And it creates the worst possible type of doctor.

Fortunately medical schools are finally growing away from this traditional 'macho' curriculum and realizing the value of variety and balance. Unfortunately medical school admissions are getting worse and attracting more and more grade and success-obsessed students whose only interest in medicine is being academically superior to everyone else. This is evidenced by the rise in competitiveness in MCAT and GPA scores over the past 10 years.

 

[atomi]

Moral and ethical posturing aside, the consequences for knowingly falsifying (by omission) your credentials are severe. Most schools will cancel interviews, rescind offers of admission, or, if already matriculated, throw you out of school. Not worth it. Good luck.

Show me one case of a medical school throwing out a matriculated student who left off a CC course from years ago on his AMCAS. This is completely unsubstantiated. Nevermind the fact that the school would never know about it unless the student confessed the mistake, I find it nearly impossible to believe a school would throw away the seat of a successfully performing student after the fact over something so trivial compared to the big picture.

 

[146233]

Show me one case of a medical school throwing out a matriculated student who left off a CC course from years ago on his AMCAS. This is completely unsubstantiated. Nevermind the fact that the school would never know about it unless the student confessed the mistake, I find it nearly impossible to believe a school would throw away the seat of a successfully performing student after the fact over something so trivial compared to the big picture.

You're free to believe what you want.

It's very clearly written in both AMCAS and medical schools' own literature that deliberate falsification of credentials is grounds for revocation of admissions offers and, if discovered after matriculation, dismissal. This is the same as academic integrity; you'd better believe a school will toss you out for it.

I'll stipulate that it's unlikely a school would find out. I've never suggested it's a likelihood. What I have done, though, is urged people to consider whether they'd want to throw away their career if, for some reason, it were discovered. If you, or others, want to resist the system and roll the dice, go for it.

 

[146233]

If a rule is unethical, then is it ethical to follow it?

People disagreeing with it doesn't make it unethical.

 

[futureboy]

You're free to believe what you want.

It's very clearly written in both AMCAS and medical schools' own literature that deliberate falsification of credentials is grounds for revocation of admissions offers and, if discovered after matriculation, dismissal. This is the same as academic integrity; you'd better believe a school will toss you out for it.

I'll stipulate that it's unlikely a school would find out. I've never suggested it's a likelihood. What I have done, though, is urged people to consider whether they'd want to throw away their career if, for some reason, it were discovered. If you, or others, want to resist the system and roll the dice, go for it.

I agree with you, except for the part about it not being likely that a school will find out. The National Student Clearinghouse, mentioned earlier in the thread, will reveal the undisclosed coursework.

Knowingly failing to disclose previous college coursework is not only unethical, it's just plain stupid.

 

[146233]

I agree with you, except for the part about it not being likely that a school will find out. The National Student Clearinghouse, mentioned earlier in the thread, will reveal the undisclosed coursework.

All the better. 🙂

Knowingly failing to disclose previous college coursework is not only unethical, it's just plain stupid.

👍

 

[flip26]

Show me one case of a medical school throwing out a matriculated student who left off a CC course from years ago on his AMCAS. This is completely unsubstantiated. Nevermind the fact that the school would never know about it unless the student confessed the mistake, I find it nearly impossible to believe a school would throw away the seat of a successfully performing student after the fact over something so trivial compared to the big picture.

But med schools do throw people out for such things...there is a current allo thread where someone poses the question of why a person would attend an Ivy med school for 3 years and then "transfer" to a foreign med school...we don't know the circumstances, but falsifying the original application is a good example of the kind of thing that would result in this happening...

 

[pdeco1]

I did not read through the thread so If this has already been stated. My bad!

You should take a look at your unofficial transcripts. I transferred and on my undergraduate transcripts from the school that I graduated from, all of my coursework that I took at the previous school and for dual enrollment was included.

 

[BlueElmo]

Ahhh, I'm literally having sleepless nights because of this issue.🙁

 

[146233]

Ahhh, I'm literally having sleepless nights because of this issue.🙁

Read the PM I sent you. I'm sure you'll be fine.

 

[lrkoehle]

It's very clearly written in both AMCAS and medical schools' own literature that deliberate falsification of credentials is grounds for revocation of admissions offers and, if discovered after matriculation, dismissal. This is the same as academic integrity; you'd better believe a school will toss you out for it.

Let me first say, I AM going to submit my dual enrollment grades, so no one jumps down my throat.

Even though it would be completely unethical, what is to stop some one just claiming ignorance to this rule? I mean, you just submit your application, and hope for the best. If you get caught, can't you just say, "LYKE OH MY GAWD, I lyke t0t@lly forgetted to include those grades" (poor grammar and word choice used intentionally to imply this person is not smart)? Would they really kick you out over something that could very easily be a mistake? I don't know, and I guess it might just depend on the circumstances.

 

[146233]

Even though it would be completely unethical, what is to stop some one just claiming ignorance to this rule? I mean, you just submit your application, and hope for the best. If you get caught, can't you just say, "LYKE OH MY GAWD, I lyke t0t@lly forgetted to include those grades" (poor grammar and word choice used intentionally to imply this person is not smart)? Would they really kick you out over something that could very easily be a mistake? I don't know, and I guess it might just depend on the circumstances.

Probably nothing, and you're right - it could be school and/or circumstance dependent. However, AMCAS is very clear and it's expected that applicants have read the instruction book. The bits about reporting all college courses taken whether or not they appear on a transcript and how to mark college work completed while in high school should be sufficient to jog anyone's memory. I'd say it's unlikely someone would a convincing argument that they "forgot."

 

[lrkoehle]

I certainly agree with this, but having read part of the instruction book I know it is around 100 pages. I do recall seeing something in there about them not letting you reapply ever again if you did something related to falsifying grades. I do recall seing the part about including high school grades from dual enrollment more than once, so it would be hard to "miss."

 

[atomi]

It's very clearly written in both AMCAS and medical schools' own literature that deliberate falsification of credentials is grounds for revocation of admissions offers and, if discovered after matriculation, dismissal. This is the same as academic integrity; you'd better believe a school will toss you out for it.

It's also very clearly written on the beginning of VHS tapes that if you copy them, you will be sent to prison for up to 5 years, investigated by Interpol, and fined $250,000.

I find it almost impossible to believe a school would throw a matriculated student out for this. Post-admission, pre-matriculation, sure.

 

[atomi]

Would they really kick you out over something that could very easily be a mistake? I don't know, and I guess it might just depend on the circumstances.

The only place I could ever see this happening would be USUHS

 

[atomi]

-

 

[146233]

I find it almost impossible to believe a school would throw a matriculated student out for this. Post-admission, pre-matriculation, sure.

Then try it and find out. You can find it "almost impossible" to believe; but it's entirely something a school would do. It's no different than the NRMP finding out you falsified your residency credentials. ...or that the state medical board discovering you falsified your residency training.

Nor does people agreeing with it make it ethical.

There is nothing unethical about requiring that all college-level work being reported.

 

[lrkoehle]

There is nothing unethical about requiring that all college-level work being reported.

yup, it's just irritating.

 

[futureboy]

Let me first say, I AM going to submit my dual enrollment grades, so no one jumps down my throat.

Even though it would be completely unethical, what is to stop some one just claiming ignorance to this rule? I mean, you just submit your application, and hope for the best. If you get caught, can't you just say, "LYKE OH MY GAWD, I lyke t0t@lly forgetted to include those grades" (poor grammar and word choice used intentionally to imply this person is not smart)? Would they really kick you out over something that could very easily be a mistake? I don't know, and I guess it might just depend on the circumstances.

If the unreported grades were As, they may believe it was unintentional. If they were Cs, maybe not.

 

[drizzt3117]

You're also asssuming that the schools use these clearinghouses for every student. They aren't free, and you have to pay to search for every school, IIRC.

 

[futureboy]

You're also asssuming that the schools use these clearinghouses for every student. They aren't free, and you have to pay to search for every school, IIRC.

Yes, I made that assumption. It's still not worth the risk, though.

 

[flip26]

You're also asssuming that the schools use these clearinghouses for every student. They aren't free, and you have to pay to search for every school, IIRC.

Well, they are already spending money on criminal background checks, so I can believe that they routinely run the clearinghouse check, too. I don't know anything about cost, but my guess is that this is a non-profit cooperative and any cost to a school would be nominal...

 

[lrkoehle]

Well, they are already spending money on criminal background checks, so I can believe that they routinely run the clearinghouse check, too. I don't know anything about cost, but my guess is that this is a non-profit cooperative and any cost to a school would be nominal...

True. I also doubt they pay per student. For the volume AMCAS or even various medical schools do it, I would have to assume they are just paying a flat fee.

 

[ReptarBar]

ok the op came on quite strong, but saying that someone shouldnt be a physician if he/she fails to disclose a grade?

what kind of logic is that?

 

[146233]

ok the op came on quite strong, but saying that someone shouldnt be a physician if he/she fails to disclose a grade?

what kind of logic is that?

That's not what I said. Someone shouldn't get upset if they get their application terminated or thrown out of school because they omitted grades on purpose. This is a position of integrity. The time to show it is now.

 

[ReptarBar]

i would consider hiding a bad cc grade if there was a 100% chance that i wouldnt be caught.

i guess im a bad person.

 

[futureboy]

ok the op came on quite strong, but saying that someone shouldnt be a physician if he/she fails to disclose a grade?

what kind of logic is that?

The same logic that says someone shouldn't be a physician if they cheat on exams to get As instead of Cs, or if they pay someone to write term papers for them.

 

[ReptarBar]

oh yea? then what negative deed constitutes the bare minimum for not being morally qualified for being a physician? where do we draw the line? who is the arbiter?

enlighten me.

 

[atomi]

-

 

[atomi]

-

 

[146233]

That's what I asked you to do!

I'm in medical school, and I did so without hiding the horrible grades of my past.

Says who? Where are the ethics police to tell us what to think? Like I said in the previous page, it's a screwed up system.

There's nothing screwed up about expecting applicants to medical school to be honest and possess integrity. Hate it all you want.