Not submitting CC coursework

[futureboy]

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Those of you who have no problem with cheating are basically insulting med students like Zip who earned their way into med school with honesty and integrity.

Zip, I see you have a masters in criminal justice. I've done some criminal defense work. The excuses and justifications for cheating in this thread are similar to what I hear from my clients. The end justifies the means ("had to rob the convenience store/sell drugs because I needed the money"). The rules are stupid, so I don't have to follow them ("I shouldn't have to show up on time to court or to my probation officer appointments").

 

[redsquareblack]

Then try it and find out. You can find it "almost impossible" to believe; but it's entirely something a school would do. It's no different than the NRMP finding out you falsified your residency credentials. ...or that the state medical board discovering you falsified your residency training.

One minor detail does, in fact, make all the difference here. Falsifying a credential is an act of commission. It is, in effect, to say "I have done this", when in fact, I haven't.

If you look at the hall of shame on the Nat'l Clearinghouse, you'll notice that all of them reference stories of people caught lying about degrees, certifications, etc. There are none about people caught not disclosing schools to which they went.

The latter would be an act of omission. It could be argued that such a thing is also unethical, but I am curious to know whether anyone here sees a difference. It is clear to me that, in fact, there is.

If I have taken a semester's worth of classes at a school, and later went to another school without using the previous credits toward my degree (which is the crucial part), then it isn't, strictly speaking, cheating if I don't mention them. They have not been a factor in the fulfillment of my college degree, and therefore are, in effect, meaningless (or so it could be argued). Omitting them from my record does not actively enhance my record, though it may do so passively.

Whatever your opinion, it is not so simple an issue as some of you would like to believe. It is the same feeling faced by anyone with a juvenile record who now wants to start over; it should be noted, however, that at least those can be sealed.

To try and pretend that even discussing this dilemma is somehow reflective of the way a given person will perform as a physician is, frankly, silly.

 

[flip26]

One minor detail does, in fact, make all the difference here. Falsifying a credential is an act of commission. It is, in effect, to say "I have done this", when in fact, I haven't.

If you look at the hall of shame on the Nat'l Clearinghouse, you'll notice that all of them reference stories of people caught lying about degrees, certifications, etc. There are none about people caught not disclosing schools to which they went.

The latter would be an act of omission. It could be argued that such a thing is also unethical, but I am curious to know whether anyone here sees a difference. It is clear to me that, in fact, there is.

If I have taken a semester's worth of classes at a school, and later went to another school without using the previous credits toward my degree (which is the crucial part), then it isn't, strictly speaking, cheating if I don't mention them. They have not been a factor in the fulfillment of my college degree, and therefore are, in effect, meaningless (or so it could be argued). Omitting them from my record does not actively enhance my record, though it may do so passively.

Whatever your opinion, it is not so simple an issue as some of you would like to believe. It is the same feeling faced by anyone with a juvenile record who now wants to start over; it should be noted, however, that at least those can be sealed.

To try and pretend that even discussing this dilemma is somehow reflective of the way a given person will perform as a physician is, frankly, silly.

When you submit your AMCAS application, there are explicit rules and requirements. One is that you must submit all college level course work ever taken, including during high school. There are no exceptions. Your rationalization that these courses could be considered meaningless have nothing to do with the requirement.

Read the AMCAS instructions, then come back and admit that you are wrong.

 

[redsquareblack]

When you submit your AMCAS application, there are explicit rules and requirements. One is that you must submit all college level course work ever taken, including during high school. There are no exceptions. Your rationalization that these courses could be considered meaningless have nothing to do with the requirement.

Read the AMCAS instructions, then come back and admit that you are wrong.

Uh... wrong about what? That would imply I had made an assertion.

EDIT: I suppose, in the strictest sense, I did make an assertion. However, the assertion you think I was making was not the assertion I actually made.

That said, if you get to it, I'd appreciate your input on what I actually wrote.

 

[futureboy]

The latter would be an act of omission. It could be argued that such a thing is also unethical, but I am curious to know whether anyone here sees a difference. It is clear to me that, in fact, there is.

Very Clintonesque.

Failure to disclose when there is a duty to disclose is the SAME as making a false statement. There is no difference. For example, if a job application says "list all previous felony convictions," and you leave it blank (and you have a felony conviction), you will be fired for failure to disclose it. This happens all the time.

Here's another example. The prosecutor in a criminal case has a duty to disclose evidence. If the prosecutor intentionally fails to disclose evidence, the defendant could be set free, the judge can hold the prosecutor in contempt of court, and the prosecutor could ultimately be disciplined or disbarred.

I'm sitting here in disbelief at the lengths/mental gymnastics some of the posters in this thread will go to evade clear, straightforward AMCAS instructions about the disclosure of previous college coursework. Perhaps more troubling is the notion that the non-disclosure is somehow justified by the perceived unfairness of the rule. I sincerely hope that this type of thinking is not the norm for premeds and physicians...

 

[Tin Man]

I'm sitting here in disbelief at the lengths/mental gymnastics some of the posters in this thread will go to evade clear, straightforward AMCAS instructions about the disclosure of previous college coursework. Perhaps more troubling is the notion that the non-disclosure is somehow justified by the perceived unfairness of the rule. I sincerely hope that this type of thinking is not the norm for premeds and physicians...

Word...

God forbid people actually work hard for a chance to... work hard. I just have to imagine there are easier ways to make money out there than being a doctor, more prestigious occupations, cooler uniforms...

I mean, if you have to cheat to get there, you really aren't doing your future patients any favors...

 

[BlueElmo]

One minor detail does, in fact, make all the difference here. Falsifying a credential is an act of commission. It is, in effect, to say "I have done this", when in fact, I haven't.

If you look at the hall of shame on the Nat'l Clearinghouse, you'll notice that all of them reference stories of people caught lying about degrees, certifications, etc. There are none about people caught not disclosing schools to which they went.

The latter would be an act of omission. It could be argued that such a thing is also unethical, but I am curious to know whether anyone here sees a difference. It is clear to me that, in fact, there is.

If I have taken a semester's worth of classes at a school, and later went to another school without using the previous credits toward my degree (which is the crucial part), then it isn't, strictly speaking, cheating if I don't mention them. They have not been a factor in the fulfillment of my college degree, and therefore are, in effect, meaningless (or so it could be argued). Omitting them from my record does not actively enhance my record, though it may do so passively.

Whatever your opinion, it is not so simple an issue as some of you would like to believe. It is the same feeling faced by anyone with a juvenile record who now wants to start over; it should be noted, however, that at least those can be sealed.

To try and pretend that even discussing this dilemma is somehow reflective of the way a given person will perform as a physician is, frankly, silly.

Where is this hall of shame? I can't find it on their website.

 

[pnoybballin]

Actually everyone here is an updated list of all the schools participating in the Student Clearinghouse.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp

It looks like there are quite a bit of schools that are not participating.

 

[NotAndrew]

Actually everyone here is an updated list of all the schools participating in the Student Clearinghouse.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp

It looks like there are quite a bit of schools that are not participating.

So this somehow makes it alright to not submit your college coursework?

 

[pnoybballin]

So this somehow makes it alright to not submit your college coursework?

I didn't say anything. Seriously, I'll leave it up to these people to decide on whats best to do.

 

[scarletgirl777]

Actually everyone here is an updated list of all the schools participating in the Student Clearinghouse.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/secure_area/DegreeVerify/dv_ParticipatingSchools.asp

It looks like there are quite a bit of schools that are not participating.

That's the list of schools that subscribe to just one particular service the clearinghouse offers. You have to click through the other services to find the other lists.

 

[redsquareblack]

It may have escaped your notice, but arguing that there is a completely ethical rationale for wanting to omit such coursework, and that such omission is not, strictly speaking, cheating per se, is not the same thing as saying that it's not against the AMCAS rules to do so.

As a somewhat snarky aside, part of succeeding in medical school is, in fact, dependent upon one's ability to actually read what is written.

 

[redsquareblack]

Where is this hall of shame? I can't find it on their website.

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/dvev/dv_hallofshame.htm

 

[Tin Man]

It may have escaped your notice, but arguing that there is a completely ethical rationale for wanting to omit such coursework, and that such omission is not, strictly speaking, cheating per se, is not the same thing as saying that it's not against the AMCAS rules to do so.

I consider myself a pretty logical fellow, and I don't think that this statement came out as intelligently as you thought it did (unless I missed something).

Cheating is breaking the rules. If it is the AMCAS rules to submit all of your college coursework, and you do not do so, then you have broken the rules, and therefore cheated.

Where did I miss again?

 

[redsquareblack]

I consider myself a pretty logical fellow, and I don't think that this statement came out as intelligently as you thought it did (unless I missed something).

Cheating is breaking the rules. If it is the AMCAS rules to submit all of your college coursework, and you do not do so, then you have broken the rules, and therefore cheated.

Where did I miss again?

You apparently missed the words per se.

 

[futureboy]

You apparently missed the words per se.

There is a difference between cheating and cheating per se?

From reading your earlier post, you may be confusing logic with ethics. Not disclosing a previous course to AMCAS because it will hurt one's chances for medical school is a LOGICAL reason for doing so, but it's not an ETHICAL reason. In this instance, we don't get to define what is ethical. There is an objective standard -- if you violate the AMCAS disclosure rules, you're being unethical. It's not more complicated than that.

 

[sindadel]

It's not that there's anything objectively ethical or unethical about disclosing prior coursework.

However, I assume that AMCAS asks you to agree to disclose all prior coursework. Agreeing to this and THEN failing to do so is clearly breaking your word, which is generally considered unethical except if said word is given under actual physical duress. i.e., you fear for your safety, or the safety of others.

The rules are arbitrary. There's nothing to prevent individual schools from massaging your coursework and only considering your best two years. This could explain why the upward trend thing seems to be effective. If you really feel strongly that this system is unfair or "unethical", you are free to start a medical school which explicitly does not consider college coursework in highschool.

 

[futureboy]

It's not that there's anything objectively ethical or unethical about disclosing prior coursework.

However, I assume that AMCAS asks you to agree to disclose all prior coursework. Agreeing to this and THEN failing to do so is clearly breaking your word, which is generally considered unethical except if said word is given under actual physical duress. i.e., you fear for your safety, or the safety of others.

The rules are arbitrary. There's nothing to prevent individual schools from massaging your coursework and only considering your best two years. This could explain why the upward trend thing seems to be effective. If you really feel strongly that this system is unfair or "unethical", you are free to start a medical school which explicitly does not consider college coursework in highschool.

It seems we are in agreement, because my reference to an objective ethical standard was made in the context of coursework disclosure on AMCAS.

 

[argonaut85]

Hypothetically, say you were required to send in CC grades you had from HS when you applied for undergrad and did not, and then subsequently graduated, what would happen? If you sent those CC grades to AMCAS would everything be alright?

 

[drizzt3117]

Hypothetically, say you were required to send in CC grades you had from HS when you applied for undergrad and did not, and then subsequently graduated, what would happen? If you sent those CC grades to AMCAS would everything be alright?

Hypothetically, sending those grades to AMCAS is probably be fine as far as your UG was concerned, because I don't think AMCAS is going to tell you undergrad anything.

 

[redsquareblack]

There is a difference between cheating and cheating per se?

From reading your earlier post, you may be confusing logic with ethics. Not disclosing a previous course to AMCAS because it will hurt one's chances for medical school is a LOGICAL reason for doing so, but it's not an ETHICAL reason. In this instance, we don't get to define what is ethical. There is an objective standard -- if you violate the AMCAS disclosure rules, you're being unethical. It's not more complicated than that.

Though I see how it might read like that, I was not, in fact confusing "logic" and "ethics". My statement that "there is a completely ethical rationale for wanting to omit such coursework", though admittedly clumsily phrased, was intended to imply that wanting to omit poor previous coursework can still be completely consistent with ethical behavior.

Secondly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what the term per se means, and so will assume that you misread my sentence. I merely said that omitting such coursework is not cheating per se (i.e., in an absolute sense, "in itself"); it is only relative to the AMCAS rules that it could be considered cheating.

The abridged version: someone wanting to omit previous CC classes is not ethically bankrupt a priori, despite what some around these parts seem to believe. Perhaps not resorting to call others unethical would be appropriate, no?

 

[Tin Man]

Though I see how it might read like that, I was not, in fact confusing "logic" and "ethics". My statement that "there is a completely ethical rationale for wanting to omit such coursework", though admittedly clumsily phrased, was intended to imply that wanting to omit poor previous coursework can still be completely consistent with ethical behavior.

Depends on what you deem to be ethical. The desire to do something that is against the set rules yet still being ethical in the process seems to indicate that the means justify the ends in this situation. So the fact that this guy wants to be a doctor and thinks he'll make a good doctor ethically justifies doing something ethically wrong? You can't combine the two. The desire to be a doctor is great. Pretty ethical (so long as we keep it at that, and don't get into the fact that most people here seem to want to be doctors only for the money). But being able to do unethical things in order for an ethical goal, especially when that ethical goal expects you to lead an ethical life, seems MUCH more of a gray-area. I would hardly say that it's ethical off-the-bat; questionable would be as good as I could give that (and we're only talking about the desire to act, not the act itself).

Secondly, I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you know what the term per se means, and so will assume that you misread my sentence. I merely said that omitting such coursework is not cheating per se (i.e., in an absolute sense, "in itself"); it is only relative to the AMCAS rules that it could be considered cheating.

You can't take this out of context. If we're talking about the AMCAS, then the AMCAS rules are the only ones that matter. The idea that omitting coursework when applying to work at Walgreens and the ethical neutrality of that is completely irrelevant to the AMCAS. When filling out the AMCAS, then the AMCAS rules ARE absolute, and breaking those rules in order to make yourself unfairly look better than you are is cheating. Not "cheating per se", or "kinda cheating." It's outright, blatent, obvious, absolute cheating. When the only rules that contextually matter are those set by the AMCAS, and they are, then no other context really is relevant to the conversation.

 

[redsquareblack]

Depends on what you deem to be ethical. The desire to do something that is against the set rules yet still being ethical in the process seems to indicate that the means justify the ends in this situation. So the fact that this guy wants to be a doctor and thinks he'll make a good doctor ethically justifies doing something ethically wrong? You can't combine the two. The desire to be a doctor is great. Pretty ethical (so long as we keep it at that, and don't get into the fact that most people here seem to want to be doctors only for the money). But being able to do unethical things in order for an ethical goal, especially when that ethical goal expects you to lead an ethical life, seems MUCH more of a gray-area. I would hardly say that it's ethical off-the-bat; questionable would be as good as I could give that (and we're only talking about the desire to act, not the act itself).

But again, you seem to be missing where I wrote that "WANTING to omit previous coursework" is not a priori unethical. Period.

My reason for responding on this thread had nothing at all to do with arguing that it would be right or ethical to omit the coursework. Rather, it is more to do with the fact that I take issue with the knee-jerk response of calling into question the ethics of anyone who would consider doing such a thing.

To my mind, an "ethical" person is not one who never thinks about doing the wrong thing, but rather one who chooses to do the right thing, even if it is more difficult.

You can't take this out of context. If we're talking about the AMCAS, then the AMCAS rules are the only ones that matter. The idea that omitting coursework when applying to work at Walgreens and the ethical neutrality of that is completely irrelevant to the AMCAS. When filling out the AMCAS, then the AMCAS rules ARE absolute, and breaking those rules in order to make yourself unfairly look better than you are is cheating. Not "cheating per se", or "kinda cheating." It's outright, blatent, obvious, absolute cheating. When the only rules that contextually matter are those set by the AMCAS, and they are, then no other context really is relevant to the conversation.

There are some here who have implied that they think it would be cheating regardless of the AMCAS rules. Therefore, I think it's appropriate to make the distinction. You may feel free to disagree, though I don't know that it's particularly material to the actual issue.

Whatever the case, I think it safe to say that at this point, we are in violent agreement.

 

[ReptarBar]

only on places like SDN and collegeconfidential will you have people seriously consider the ethics of such a trivial act, even going so far as to say that the person will not be a good doctor.

i personally wouldnt care at all if someone that was in the same app cycle as me told me that they omitted a CC grade. i would just dgaf it. i dont care if its "unethical." what do these "ethics" do for you anyways? you dont make society better at all by following the amcas rules.

ive had this same argument on collegeconfidential about some guy who sent in a fake LoR and got into Yale. the OP of that thread said he had to opportunity to expose the guy, and the thread was split between seemingly "ethical" and "unethical" people. i wouldnt have turned in the guy. i seriously just dont care.

you "ethical" people act like doing the right thing all the time works toward a greater good, when it really doesnt. i would damn sure report someone that stole a wallet, but when it comes to school admissions, i just dont care. someone could lie about every EC and fake every LoR, and if he got into a particular med school instead of me, i would just say "good job, you beat the system." of course he has a high chance of getting screwed, but hey he took the risk and made it. great for him. it doesnt mean hes going to be a worse doctor at all. thats just foolish. one act does NOT lead to another. you cant tell at all whether or not he would be "unethical" in the future.

i stole some stuff when i was young. does that mean i am a crazy criminal for life? not at all. i cheated a bunch in high school. did it carry on to college? nope.

 

[146233]

But again, you seem to be missing where I wrote that "WANTING to omit previous coursework" is not a priori unethical. Period.

This is absolutely correct.

To my mind, an "ethical" person is not one who never thinks about doing the wrong thing, but rather one who chooses to do the right thing, even if it is more difficult.

Agreed.

 

[146233]

ive had this same argument on collegeconfidential about some guy who sent in a fake LoR and got into Yale. the OP of that thread said he had to opportunity to expose the guy, and the thread was split between seemingly "ethical" and "unethical" people. i wouldnt have turned in the guy. i seriously just dont care.

Easy to say...

you "ethical" people act like doing the right thing all the time works toward a greater good, when it really doesnt. i would damn sure report someone that stole a wallet, but when it comes to school admissions, i just dont care. someone could lie about every EC and fake every LoR, and if he got into a particular med school instead of me, i would just say "good job, you beat the system." of course he has a high chance of getting screwed, but hey he took the risk and made it. great for him. it doesnt mean hes going to be a worse doctor at all. thats just foolish. one act does NOT lead to another.

Stealing a wallet is somehow more egregious than lying to get into medical school, mm? Okay, how about the guy who falsifies information to get a job with the police, FBI, or Secret Service? Is that the kind of person you want running around with a gun? Sure, there are rules about when you can and can't use your weapon, but clearly rules don't influence this given individual's decision-making. The person who lies to get into med school is stealing; they're stealing a spot from someone who didn't lie.

Omitting grades [or deliberately falsifying anything on the AMCAS application] seriously calls into question the character and ethics of the applicant. At that point, there is no reason to believe the person will behave ethically [or even legally] in school or beyond. They've shown their willingness to disregard rules and procedures to further their own selfish goals. They're no different than the person who cheats on an exam because they didn't bother studying but is sure they'll "...be a great doctor once these pointless tests are done." It's hogwash; every self-deluding, rationalizing word of it.

 

[ReptarBar]

ok so youre more of the cynical type. well i've come far along in life to know that just because someone does something ethically wrong, it doesnt mean that they are warped for life. we obviously hang out with different crowds.

 

[146233]

ok so youre more of the cynical type. well i've come far along in life to know that just because someone does something ethically wrong, it doesnt mean that they are warped for life. we obviously hang out with different crowds.

I'm more the "All things being equal, history is the best predictor of future behavior," type.

 

[LizzyM]

someone could lie about every EC and fake every LoR, and if he got into a particular med school instead of me, i would just say "good job, you beat the system."

When I roll into the ER, or the OR, do I want to put my life and my future well-being in that person's hands? Would I trust that person to do the right thing, to own up to errors, and to accept responsibility?

Ideally, we want to admit people to med school who will be scrupulously honest, particularly when it is in their self-interst to be less than completely honest. As patients (and we all wind-up as patients some day) we should want it no other way.

 

[ReptarBar]

i agree that there may be a small correlation between doctor quality and past unethical deeds, but the two are still wildly different in my eyes. i cant explain it in words, so ill just end here.

 

[LizzyM]

But we aren't talking about past behavior, we are talking about future, pre-meditated falsification of records with self-justification.

The next thing you know, you are charting "risks discussed, pt agrees with treatment plan" when in fact you never did discuss all the risks (because the pt might have refused the intervention if you had been frank about risks) but to admit that lapse could put you in a bad light with the insurance company, hospital quality assurance committee or a plantiff's attorney.

You'll know people who get away with massive insurance fraud and so a little creative writing can get you a slightly higher reimbursement (for a moderate complexity visit rather than low complexity) and it is no big deal.

This is the first step in being a professional: being completely honest from this day forward, even when to be evasive would be in your own self-interest.

 

[futureboy]

But again, you seem to be missing where I wrote that "WANTING to omit previous coursework" is not a priori unethical. Period.

My reason for responding on this thread had nothing at all to do with arguing that it would be right or ethical to omit the coursework. Rather, it is more to do with the fact that I take issue with the knee-jerk response of calling into question the ethics of anyone who would consider doing such a thing.

To my mind, an "ethical" person is not one who never thinks about doing the wrong thing, but rather one who chooses to do the right thing, even if it is more difficult.



There are some here who have implied that they think it would be cheating regardless of the AMCAS rules. Therefore, I think it's appropriate to make the distinction. You may feel free to disagree, though I don't know that it's particularly material to the actual issue.

Whatever the case, I think it safe to say that at this point, we are in violent agreement.

Redsquare, we've generally been talking about the ethics of actually omitting college coursework from AMCAS, not merely wanting to do so. I'm not in favor of the thought police. We're all tempted to do unethical things, but it's ok as long as we do the right thing in the end.

There are some, though, that think it's perfectly fine to omit coursework if it will improve their grades, and thus improve their chances to be admitted into medical school. They suggest that others should do so. Is this unethical? I would say so, even if they didn't actually commit the act. It's quite disturbing, at the very least. It calls into question their character and fitness to be physicians. It is not enough to be competent at diagnosis, etc. Physicians have to be ethical, too. They have to be trusted to do the right thing, even if no one is looking. They have the ability to prescribe powerful drugs, and they deal with patients at their most vulnerable times. They have to honor all laws and rules of the profession, even the ones they don't agree with.

If people think I'm getting on my high horse, then so be it. I'm not saying that those that think it's ok to cheat to get into medical school shouldn't be able to express their opinions, but it doesn't mean I think they're right.

 

[lrkoehle]

The rules are arbitrary.

This is one of the most important parts of this argument. AMCAS can ask you to include grades from whenever in your academic history that they want. Maybe we should ask them to change the rules?

 

[futureboy]

only on places like SDN and collegeconfidential will you have people seriously consider the ethics of such a trivial act, even going so far as to say that the person will not be a good doctor.

i personally wouldnt care at all if someone that was in the same app cycle as me told me that they omitted a CC grade. i would just dgaf it. i dont care if its "unethical." what do these "ethics" do for you anyways? you dont make society better at all by following the amcas rules.

ive had this same argument on collegeconfidential about some guy who sent in a fake LoR and got into Yale. the OP of that thread said he had to opportunity to expose the guy, and the thread was split between seemingly "ethical" and "unethical" people. i wouldnt have turned in the guy. i seriously just dont care.

you "ethical" people act like doing the right thing all the time works toward a greater good, when it really doesnt. i would damn sure report someone that stole a wallet, but when it comes to school admissions, i just dont care. someone could lie about every EC and fake every LoR, and if he got into a particular med school instead of me, i would just say "good job, you beat the system." of course he has a high chance of getting screwed, but hey he took the risk and made it. great for him. it doesnt mean hes going to be a worse doctor at all. thats just foolish. one act does NOT lead to another. you cant tell at all whether or not he would be "unethical" in the future.

i stole some stuff when i was young. does that mean i am a crazy criminal for life? not at all. i cheated a bunch in high school. did it carry on to college? nope.

You wouldn't care if someone cheated so their grades show a 3.6 instead of a 3.4, and they got in instead of you? Well, maybe not, because you probably cheated to inflate your 3.2 into a 3.5.

With your attitude, I seriously hope you never, ever become a physician.

 

[redsquareblack]

You wouldn't care if someone cheated so their grades show a 3.6 instead of a 3.4, and they got in instead of you? Well, maybe not, because you probably cheated to inflate your 3.2 into a 3.5.

With your attitude, I seriously hope you never, ever become a physician.

Ditto.

"You probably cheated to inflate your 3.2 into a 3.5"?! Really? In what way is that appropriate?

Look, man, if I took three classes at a CC & got a 1.3, but then went to Yale and maintained a 3.7, I still got a 3.7 at Yale. So would you, were you my classmate at med school X, really turn me in? If so, why? Understand that I'm not trying to say you're wrong if you would. I'm actually more interested in the thought experiment.

 

[futureboy]

But we aren't talking about past behavior, we are talking about future, pre-meditated falsification of records with self-justification.

The next thing you know, you are charting "risks discussed, pt agrees with treatment plan" when in fact you never did discuss all the risks (because the pt might have refused the intervention if you had been frank about risks) but to admit that lapse could put you in a bad light with the insurance company, hospital quality assurance committee or a plantiff's attorney.

You'll know people who get away with massive insurance fraud and so a little creative writing can get you a slightly higher reimbursement (for a moderate complexity visit rather than low complexity) and it is no big deal.

This is the first step in being a professional: being completely honest from this day forward, even when to be evasive would be in your own self-interest.

I personally saw a physician sentenced to three years in prison for Medicare fraud. I'm sure he rationalized this to himself somewhere along the way (the reimbursement for the procedure/test he actually did was unfairly low, and no one would find out if he upcoded). Many of you are headed in the same direction. Maybe you'll get caught, maybe you won't. If you do, I'll need at least a $25,000 retainer to represent you...

 

[ReptarBar]

i hope i never meet you in real life, futureboy, because i would bash your face in. ive only been talking about reporting liars...i never mentioned anything about doing it myself. and yes, i could care less if someone cheated and got ahead of me. in fact, i would be extremely disappointed in myself if i had to resort to reporting someone JUST so i could get a spot in med school. i would just move on if i didnt get into med school even if i had fresh evidence of cheaters at hand.

that said, i never said i would cheat the system myself. i just said i dont care if others do it. in fact, you would be surprised to know that most people feel the way i do.

 

[redsquareblack]

I personally saw a physician sentenced to three years in prison for Medicare fraud. I'm sure he rationalized this to himself somewhere along the way (the reimbursement for the procedure/test he actually did was unfairly low, and no one would find out if he upcoded). Many of you are headed in the same direction. Maybe you'll get caught, maybe you won't. If you do, I'll need at least a $25,000 retainer to represent you...

....right.

 

[NotAndrew]

only on places like SDN and collegeconfidential will you have people seriously consider the ethics of such a trivial act, even going so far as to say that the person will not be a good doctor.

i personally wouldnt care at all if someone that was in the same app cycle as me told me that they omitted a CC grade. i would just dgaf it. i dont care if its "unethical." what do these "ethics" do for you anyways? you dont make society better at all by following the amcas rules.

ive had this same argument on collegeconfidential about some guy who sent in a fake LoR and got into Yale. the OP of that thread said he had to opportunity to expose the guy, and the thread was split between seemingly "ethical" and "unethical" people. i wouldnt have turned in the guy. i seriously just dont care.

you "ethical" people act like doing the right thing all the time works toward a greater good, when it really doesnt. i would damn sure report someone that stole a wallet, but when it comes to school admissions, i just dont care. someone could lie about every EC and fake every LoR, and if he got into a particular med school instead of me, i would just say "good job, you beat the system." of course he has a high chance of getting screwed, but hey he took the risk and made it. great for him. it doesnt mean hes going to be a worse doctor at all. thats just foolish. one act does NOT lead to another. you cant tell at all whether or not he would be "unethical" in the future.

i stole some stuff when i was young. does that mean i am a crazy criminal for life? not at all. i cheated a bunch in high school. did it carry on to college? nope.

I am completely blown away by this post.
Some things:

1. How is out right lying on the biggest job application of your life "such a trivial act"?
2. "you dont make society better at all by following the amcas rules." Really? How is having doctors who are honest not better for society?
3. "i wouldnt have turned in the guy" I would not have either, however if I went to Yale, I would.
4. "you "ethical" people act like doing the right thing all the time works toward a greater good, when it really doesnt" This is just a ridiculous and false statement.

 

[lrkoehle]

that said, i never said i would cheat the system myself. i just said i dont care if others do it. in fact, you would be surprised to know that most people feel the way i do.

not me

 

[futureboy]

i hope i never meet you in real life, futureboy, because i would bash your face in. ive only been talking about reporting liars...i never mentioned anything about doing it myself. and yes, i could care less if someone cheated and got ahead of me. in fact, i would be extremely disappointed in myself if i had to resort to reporting someone JUST so i could get a spot in med school. i would just move on if i didnt get into med school even if i had fresh evidence of cheaters at hand.

that said, i never said i would cheat the system myself. i just said i dont care if others do it. in fact, you would be surprised to know that most people feel the way i do.

You "stole stuff." So you're a thief. You cheated "a bunch" in high school. So you're a liar. You claim you never said you'd cheat the system? Well, you already have.

You would bash my face? Seems like you're violent, too.

And yet, you want to be a physician. What's wrong with this picture?

 

[futureboy]

....right.

Yes. Right.

 

[ReptarBar]

oh dawg props you totally got me. im not gonna be a good physician. can you teach me how2begood physician?

=[

 

[146233]

in fact, you would be surprised to know that most people feel the way i do.

Cite your source.

 

[ReptarBar]

nothing to cite obviously. its the no-snitching code. its just how it is. most people abide by it.

 

[lrkoehle]

nothing to cite obviously. its the no-snitching code. its just how it is. most people abide by it.

That is absurd. This is the real world, not high school where something so ridiculous might pass as acceptable. This thread has clearly gone off topic. It should have ended when I cited the AMCAS instruction manual, which specifically says all college courses, including dual enrollment in HS, must be reported. If some one wants to lie and risk it, then they can do that. Will that cause them to be a bad doctor? Not necessarily, but it provides evidence that they are willing to disregard the rules.

 

[EdwardKim]

Hello, I guess I have no idea what I'm talking about...

i don't understand why reporting reporting community college classes that you've taken in high school might lower your gpa?

I mean....

Do we have to put in grades for it?

I am currently in UCLA and when I look at my Degree Progress Report, UCLA does not accept letter grades from the CC coursework..

For med school application, they actually accept the letter grades?

Even though they were done before I went to college?

And if so, are they weighed same amount as the UCLA classes??

 

[sindadel]

Hello, I guess I have no idea what I'm talking about...

i don't understand why reporting reporting community college classes that you've taken in high school might lower your gpa?

I mean....

Do we have to put in grades for it?

Yes

I am currently in UCLA and when I look at my Degree Progress Report, UCLA does not accept letter grades from the CC coursework..

You would have to get a separate transcript from the CC.

For med school application, they actually accept the letter grades?

Yes.

Even though they were done before I went to college?

Yes.

And if so, are they weighed same amount as the UCLA classes??

Yes.

 

[EdwardKim]

freaking awesome....

i have 4.0 with 65 units from community college....

what the.. hell... that raises my gpa so much...........

wow............

 

[lrkoehle]

freaking awesome....

i have 4.0 with 65 units from community college....

what the.. hell... that raises my gpa so much...........

wow............

I hate you, ok not really. I wish I was in your position, but keep in mind that even though they are given equal weight in the cumulative GPA, schools will see that these are from way back in high school. If your grades dropped off in college, they will see that downward trend.