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You don't do any evaluation of orders as you process them? I would argue that is clinical work that an NP/PA wouldn't necessarily be able to do.
NP/PAs will replace hospital pharmacists?
Started by konkan
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You don't do any evaluation of orders as you process them? I would argue that is clinical work that an NP/PA wouldn't necessarily be able to do.
Seriously. I could process orders right now if that's all there was to it. I'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than a NP/PA.
Robots will replace pharmacists instead of NP/PA.
A well programmed robot can do everything a pharmacist can and more at a faster and cheaper rate.
A well programmed robot can do everything a pharmacist can and more at a faster and cheaper rate.
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Since when?
Robots will replace everyone in the future including physicians. Did you see Watson on Jeopardy????
This is almost true. Still a little gap. PA demand rising, Pharmacist demand falling.
Actually, I understand that this isn't the case everywhere, but at both hospitals I work at, medical PAs and pharmacists are under the same "pay schedule" with surgical PAs actually in a higher bracket than both.
Agreed. Actually the sooner, PAs are gonna catch up Rphs in terms of salary, the better job security we, hospital pharmacists, are gonna have.
I have said this before and will say it again. About 10-14 years ago, pharmacists' salaries and prestige went up due the shortage, NOT the value of the service. Simple concept of demand and supply.
Oversupply of pharmacists is rocking this here boat BIG time. We will see some changes in the coming years. Not that we are not seeing changes now.
Residencies are only here to create a demand for few pharmacists by keeping the supply low. Residency trained pharmacists are only creating a demand for themselves. These pharmacists are reacting to the (awful) market.
Sooner or later, it will be PGY-1, PGY-2 and a 2 year fellowship before you can secure a job. A job that, only 6 years ago, a BSc holding pharmacist could attain with a licence and minimal pulse.
Oversupply of pharmacists is rocking this here boat BIG time. We will see some changes in the coming years. Not that we are not seeing changes now.
Residencies are only here to create a demand for few pharmacists by keeping the supply low. Residency trained pharmacists are only creating a demand for themselves. These pharmacists are reacting to the (awful) market.
Sooner or later, it will be PGY-1, PGY-2 and a 2 year fellowship before you can secure a job. A job that, only 6 years ago, a BSc holding pharmacist could attain with a licence and minimal pulse.
Well that sucks in a way but it's essentially the same thing that medical residency requirements have done for physicians.
If 70% of pharmacists work as community pharmacists, then this has got to be off. Everyone whines about retail pharmacy and the evil that it creates, but it sure does pay! Hospital pharmacy seems to pay less overall. Maybe this is strictly comparing hospital jobs, but that's not very accurate since pharmacists and PA's work inpatient and outpatient.
I've never heard of a PA making $55/hr (like a retailer). There was a NP who was talking about a position that paid $75/hr in an undesirable area at one of my rotations, but that's the most that I've ever heard of for a PA or NP.
I think some pharmacists are never happy with what they have achieved and think that you have to have all of the badges before you can be successful. It's almost silly...
Some people like the challenge of board certifications or fellowships or a challenging residency. What's wrong with that? I don't frequent the other boards here, do they knock each other for their accomplishments? I don't know, maybe they do. It's starting to bum me out around here.
There's nothing wrong with it. And yes, I think there is jealousy and backbiting in all professions.
I'm personally very excited about my residency and the possibility of an academic job or a PGY2. My current preceptor and I have similar interests and have enjoyed talking about the new BCACP (think that's what it's going to be called) and other certifications like CDE and CGP. I like the idea of challenges. 👍
there are other ways to challenge yourself than spending 700 bucks making these organizations rich to have letters after your name.
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except post graduate medical training has more value than post graduate pharmacy training. if you compare what pharmacy residencies do compared to medical or dental, there is no comparison. they are drastically different.
in medicine and dentistry, those residencies give you the necessary training and certifications to practice a highly specialized area of medicine that you can take anywhere in the world.
the training you receive in hospital pharmacy residencies is not able to be utilized anywhere outside of the usa to the same level. also, it doesnt really change your pay bc you have no billable service.
Point being? I don't tell other people how to run their careers and spend their money. Anyway, at my current employer (VA) board certifications can earn you an increase in pay grade. I'm doing my residency in an academic institution which also encourages stuff like that. I think it's fine if people want to do it, or if they don't.
It's definitely NOT easy to take US medical training and become licensed to practice in other countries. I have several friends who have moved abroad with military spouses, and none of them are using their MDs currently. I'm not sure where you are getting your information.
It depends on the management at your hospital and if they value the additional training.
I landed a job that pays significantly more because of my 2 years of residency. It's nearly obscene.
Have you ever thought *just once* that these certifications do nothing more than take attention away from the most important thing- your PharmD degree? I mean... how many pieces of flare do you need?Point being? I don't tell other people how to run their careers and spend their money. Anyway, at my current employer (VA) board certifications can earn you an increase in pay grade. I'm doing my residency in an academic institution which also encourages stuff like that. I think it's fine if people want to do it, or if they don't.
What about actual practice?
My classmate has been asking about you and if you are excited about your new job! She's headed to her first choice residency in the same general vicinity. 🙂
Like I said, I think it's mostly a matter of personal choice and interest, although there can be financial or professional advancement incentives to obtain the extra training, depending on the employer. I don't know that there is any evidence that having certifications makes one a better pharmacist but I also doubt that there's evidence that it makes one a WORSE pharmacist. Or that they distract from actual practice since being engaged in relevant actual practice is typically required to even sit for the examinations.
I don't think most people would plan on moving out of the US after doing a residency here, so that's kinda irrelevant. And a PGY-2 gives you the specialized training in almost all of the same medical residency areas, so I'm not sure what your point is here.
For now, this is mostly true. As the new schools keep pumping out new grads, who's going to see the salary dropping first, the pharmD's without residency or the ones with residency/fellowship?
I just reviewed some of the bills being watched by TPA and TSHP (two big Texas pharmacy groups). One of the bills going before the legislature would allow doctors to SELL medications. The example given was a cosmetic surgeon selling a medication that is routinely prescribed after a procedure.
Another bill is proposing the same ability be given to advanced practice nurses, which I assume means PA/NP.
A PA is not an advanced practice nurse.
That's even worse. APNs are below RNs. If they will be able to do that - good luck to Texas Rphs and, eventually, to all pharmacists.
I don't follow. Advanced practice nurse = nurse practitioner, certified nurse-midwife or certified registered nurse anesthetist. They are prescribers. PAs are also prescribers, but they aren't advanced practice nurses. They aren't nurses at all.
Wait... so where do Rocket Scientists fit in in this hierarchy?
Wait... so where do Rocket Scientists fit in in this hierarchy?
Above you and everyone else, naturally!
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I guess I mixed up APNs with advanced licensed nurses. But it doesn't matter. The point is that mid-levels are working their way into pharmacy practice. And this is not good for pharmacists. I think you will agree with that.
Instead of working and lobbying to spread into other areas (like mid-levels do), pharmacists and pharmacy students are being encouraged to do residencies and certifications. That does not advance practice of pharmacy a bit.
We are not real members of health-care team. And I'm talking about staff pharmacists. We are somewhere in the basement, sitting in a way of getting medications to nurses faster. We are in a way of allowing prescribers to process their orders faster. We are in a hospital because the law says so. But that might change. We do not generate revenue for the hospital. I think we are being viewed as liability. That's how I feel.
The sad part is that I really like what I do. But I don't feel appreciated for what I do at all.
And finally, I do not remember talking to a single pharmacist who is happy the way hospital pharmacy practice is evolving. Not a single one.
I don't know that I'm really bothered by giving midlevels the legal right to distribute samples or dispense in office. Physicians already have this ability in most states. In my state, advanced practice nurses and PAs can't technically dispense samples, but in practice, they do. It just goes under the MD's name. I don't see any type of in-office dispensing as much of a threat to pharmacy.
Removing pharmacists from hospitals is a different issue. I don't see it happening. Too many laws to change, too many regulations, etc. But I could be wrong.
Some of the bills that have been discussed in various legislatures are submitted specifically to expand the practice of pharmacy.
One thing I've learned recently is that no one group really represents pharmacy as a whole (if only because pharmacy itself is so fragmented), but these groups do occasionally rally behind a particular PAC to push legislation.
If you want to see pharmacy expanded in its scope, then you have to support these groups, and I don't mean through donations. Writing to congressmen and women, submitting ideas for discussion for future bills, etc. If you sit silently complaining, nothing will change.
One thing I've learned recently is that no one group really represents pharmacy as a whole (if only because pharmacy itself is so fragmented), but these groups do occasionally rally behind a particular PAC to push legislation.
If you want to see pharmacy expanded in its scope, then you have to support these groups, and I don't mean through donations. Writing to congressmen and women, submitting ideas for discussion for future bills, etc. If you sit silently complaining, nothing will change.
i dont think docs selling meds is a big thing...from my experience, they arent interested in dealing with the paperwork/regulations/etc, they much rather see another patient in that time frame instead of selling a drug to a patient
but to me, the best career is that of a PA. from a economical standpoint and a demand standpoint, it works out the best. with less PCP, they are in demand. And considering their salary is around 75K, the cost to the institution isnt that much compared to other types of practitioners (similar deal as to why CRNP in anasthesia became so popular, cheaper to have them on staff then multiple anesthesiologists on staff).
but to me, the best career is that of a PA. from a economical standpoint and a demand standpoint, it works out the best. with less PCP, they are in demand. And considering their salary is around 75K, the cost to the institution isnt that much compared to other types of practitioners (similar deal as to why CRNP in anasthesia became so popular, cheaper to have them on staff then multiple anesthesiologists on staff).
Agreed about PAs. I wish they would come up with some kind of a bridging program for Rphs. We don't need 2-2.5 years. I think we are on a similar level as far as anatomy and physiology and we already have superior drug knowledge. All we need is assessment/diagnosing of the patient (and it's not like to don't have any of those skills). We need a 9-12 months program and we would be able to work as mid-levels (but with superior drug knowledge). If demand for PA/NPs will continue to grow, and the demand for Rphs will continue to slow, I'm pretty sure that may become a very interesting idea. Of course, for that we would need leadership with balls - not the current one.
i have,even on this forum, advised pre pharms to switch over to PA
and i totally agree, it would be great to have a bridge program, but that will never happen since schools would be losing $ (they want you there for the full time to take all the classes)
Right now sure, but in the future if more and more Rphs will be out of jobs, nobody will be applying to pharm schools anyway.
All great discoveries are made during war, and if we'll be out of jobs, that's gonna be our war of survival🙂
Not exactly the same thing, but still a PharmD/PA-C dual degree in 5 years:
http://www.washington.edu/medicine/som/depts/medex/applicants/degreeoptions_pharmd.htm
without fail, history will repeat itself.
Right now, everyone is jumping into the NP/ PA bandwagon. In 3 or 4 years, the midlevel field will probably be saturated like crazy. I am not a pessimist, but I like to be realistic about things. It makes bitter pills easy to swallow once you understand what is happening.
The MDs on the other hand are seeing their turf being encroached from all fronts. It will be fun to read some of the posts here 5 years from now after the robots/ skynet/ overlords have taken over our futures
Right now, everyone is jumping into the NP/ PA bandwagon. In 3 or 4 years, the midlevel field will probably be saturated like crazy. I am not a pessimist, but I like to be realistic about things. It makes bitter pills easy to swallow once you understand what is happening.
The MDs on the other hand are seeing their turf being encroached from all fronts. It will be fun to read some of the posts here 5 years from now after the robots/ skynet/ overlords have taken over our futures
without fail, history will repeat itself.
Right now, everyone is jumping into the NP/ PA bandwagon. In 3 or 4 years, the midlevel field will probably be saturated like crazy. I am not a pessimist, but I like to be realistic about things. It makes bitter pills easy to swallow once you understand what is happening.
The MDs on the other hand are seeing their turf being encroached from all fronts. It will be fun to read some of the posts here 5 years from now after the robots/ skynet/ overlords have taken over our futures
The world will end in 2012, remember?😉
While the figure you quote is in the upper 25% of most salary surveys, it is certainly not uncommon for PA's. There are plenty of PA's making more than $55/hr, especially for someone working in a higher-paying field such as emergency medicine or CT surgery,
Yup, unlike most fields of pharmacy, PA's are well compensated for their knowledge and experience, not just a 2% raise every year. Although the general belief is that an average PA salary is much lower than a PharmD salary when at the beginning of their careers, PA salaries tend to climb at a higher rate, thus after 10-15 years, guess who is being paid more?
at the hospital i did 18 weeks of rotations, the orthapedic group had 4 PAs in their practice, and all of them were raking 100k+ and a bonus at the end of the year
PA helped with the pre-op, post-op care, + all discharge instructions and the routine office follow up....freeing up more time for the surgeon to do more surgeries. doing more surgery = more money for surgeon
if you look at it from a finance standpoint, the PA fits in very nicely
of course the problem with PA, is that you have to be able to look at blood. from my experience, a lot of people became pharmacists to avoid the whole body contact thing (examining, needles, body fluids, etc)
PA helped with the pre-op, post-op care, + all discharge instructions and the routine office follow up....freeing up more time for the surgeon to do more surgeries. doing more surgery = more money for surgeon
if you look at it from a finance standpoint, the PA fits in very nicely
of course the problem with PA, is that you have to be able to look at blood. from my experience, a lot of people became pharmacists to avoid the whole body contact thing (examining, needles, body fluids, etc)
So, according to this thread, PAs are going to replace pharmacists because they're cheaper AND PAs actually make more.
I'm pretty sure at least one of these things is untrue
I'm pretty sure at least one of these things is untrue
I have noticed that everyone talking how great PGY1, PGY2, fellowships, etc are great and will advance them, they are all pharmacy STUDENTS. You are all drinking the Kool-Aid from the professors of the schools. The school I graduated from (top 3 in the country) push residency down your throat and literally told you if you go work retail it will be a waste of time. These profs are just looking out for their own job security. I would say a good majority of pharmacists go into retail (I do fulltime retail and casual hospital) and we make the most money.......great idea to piss off a majority of your alumni who will have the most money to donate back to the college.
Yes, NP/PA's and especially MD's get more respect, does it suck? YES! I don't think adding more letters after our names will help that. If you wanted to do a PGY2, or more respect why the hell didn't you just go to medical school, go one more year and make almost double of what a RPh makes????
Yes, NP/PA's and especially MD's get more respect, does it suck? YES! I don't think adding more letters after our names will help that. If you wanted to do a PGY2, or more respect why the hell didn't you just go to medical school, go one more year and make almost double of what a RPh makes????
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So, according to this thread, PAs are going to replace pharmacists because they're cheaper AND PAs actually make more.
I'm pretty sure at least one of these things is untrue
haha funny
my position is that the PA wont take away the rph role
but the PA offers the best value to a practice setting, factor that in with the lack of PCPs, and evident saturation of rphs that is coming, I believe PA is the better route for students
Ummmm because I didn't want to be a MD/DO/PA/NP? Because direct patient care isn't what I want to do? The same reason I didn't want to be a rocket scientist or a master plumber or a day trader? What kind of question is that?
I have much to comment on posts in this thread, but I'm having an acute crabbiness exacerbation (ACE) so I have to wait until that passes.
Becoming a PA is a better route for students that want to be a PA. If you want to be some type of primary care provider, become a PA, NP, MD, or DO.
I don't think this is what most people applying to pharmacy school want to be, however.
You are wrong, both are true.
PAs make more and employers save $$ because they will be allowed do both what pharmacists do and what doctors do. Their pay will be in between pharmacists and doctors, but less than 1 doctor + 1 pharmacist. Even 2 PAs are less expensive than 1 doctor + 1 pharmacist.
Same idea you buy a fridge w/ freezer.
PAs make more and employers save $$ because they will be allowed do both what pharmacists do and what doctors do. Their pay will be in between pharmacists and doctors, but less than 1 doctor + 1 pharmacist. Even 2 PAs are less expensive than 1 doctor + 1 pharmacist.
Same idea you buy a fridge w/ freezer.
So, according to this thread, PAs are going to replace pharmacists because they're cheaper AND PAs actually make more.
I'm pretty sure at least one of these things is untrue
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on average, PAs make LESS than pharmacists. Around 10-15k less. In hospital/clinical pharmacy, pharmacists may make about the same as PAs but the truth is that pharmacists right now DO make more as a whole. The average retail salary for pharmacists is well over the 85 percentile salary for all PAs. Many PAs make more than some pharmacists BUT PAs as a whole on average make like 88-90k while pharmacists probably average a bit higher than 100k
Second, WHY would a PA replace a rph!??! Remember that a PA is a dependent practitioner that basically can NEVER do anything beyond what their collaborating physician can do. So, in essence, they only do a procedure if the doc can do, and so forth... So, PAs can never replace a pharmacist (unless doctors replace pharmacists)
Neither cheaper, nor can do the same thing. completely DIFFERENT roles. A pharmacist couldn't do what a PA could and a PA certainly couldn't do what a pharmacist could.
Second, WHY would a PA replace a rph!??! Remember that a PA is a dependent practitioner that basically can NEVER do anything beyond what their collaborating physician can do. So, in essence, they only do a procedure if the doc can do, and so forth... So, PAs can never replace a pharmacist (unless doctors replace pharmacists)
Neither cheaper, nor can do the same thing. completely DIFFERENT roles. A pharmacist couldn't do what a PA could and a PA certainly couldn't do what a pharmacist could.
