NRMP match notification on Monday of Match week

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Lilyhopeless said:
It is still conflating 2 different responsibility here: med students' responsibility and theirs. You are also now introducing a different topic that has no salient point on this matter: The fact that you can't trust a doctor that can't click a box is neither here nor there in terms of the NRMP's responsibility.

As an aside, I agree that whoever did not certify their ROL after being warned deserves the grave they dig! However, I just want the NRMP to design the system that will warn them first.

With that said, I agree that you are correct: we will never come to aggreement. Let us just agree to disagree.
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You want to minimize your responsibility and maximize theirs. That’s what you’re advocating for.

In reality, their responsibility is to let you know when the deadline is and to provide a system that allows you to fulfill that deadline. They do that. It’s your responsibility to meet your end, which is to certify on time.

Would it be hard for them to send an email out the day before to remind everyone? Probably not. But that isn’t their responsibility.
 
Matthew9Thirtyfive said:
You want to minimize your responsibility and maximize theirs. That’s what you’re advocating for.

In reality, their responsibility is to let you know when the deadline is and to provide a system that allows you to fulfill that deadline. They do that. It’s your responsibility to meet your end, which is to certify on time.

Would it be hard for them to send an email out the day before to remind everyone? Probably not. But that isn’t their responsibility.
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I have never said what you just charged me with. You are pointing at the wrong end of my argument. I have never once minimized our responsibility or expecting a deadline extension: I have always agreed that the deadline is the deadline and we are required to certify it by the deadline or lose the match. And that is me doing the end of my responsibility. I am always and only advocating them to improve their system which we, as end-users, have paid for. This is their responsibility.

Like I have mentioned to the other poster, we will never come to an agreement regarding an expectation of the betterment of the system we have. So, I have to agree to disagree.
 
Lilyhopeless said:
I have never said what you just charged me with. You are pointing at the wrong end of my argument. I have never once minimized our responsibility or expecting a deadline extension: I have always agreed that the deadline is the deadline and we are required to certify it by the deadline or lose the match. And that is me doing the end of my responsibility. I am always and only advocating them to improve their system which we, as end-users, have paid for. This is their responsibility.

Like I have mentioned to the other poster, we will never come to an agreement regarding an expectation of the betterment of the system we have. So, I have to agree to disagree.
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You literally said that they should send out reminders for you to certify your rank list. That is putting responsibility on them and removing it from you. I am not charging you with anything, I'm just pointing out what you're saying. Their responsibility is to have a system that works and that you can use to fulfill your responsibilities. They do that. Your responsibility, as you have said, is to make sure you certify on time.

As I said, it would be nice if they sent an email out the day before or whatever, but they are not obligated to do so. They aren't responsible for anyone certifying on time. The deadline is very well known, and you have literally worked almost 4 years in med school for this. This is why people say to certify any time you make a change, do it early, etc. In case something happens and you would have missed the deadline. All of this is part of being a responsible adult.
 
A fail-safe email is not a bad idea.

As much we like to talk up how responsible we are, we're also human, and we sometimes forget important things or imagine we've completed something when we actually haven't. The human memory is faaaaaar from infallible.

I've seen enough with only 3.5 years of residency under my belt.*


*not implicating myself here. I'm damn near perfect.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
Because you're an adult about to start making decisions that can profoundly alter people's lives, so asking you to remember to click a box isn't too much to ask of you.

I think a blanket email to everyone a few days before the deadline isn't a bad idea, but a deadline is called a deadline for a reason.
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You're missing the point (and so is everyone else arguing against a fail safe). There's a deadline and then there is the redundancy of asking applicants to certify their list after they've already made it. What does "certifying" it even mean? I almost didn't know I had to certify my list until I came to sdn. Certify it from what to what?

Had the deadline meant = whatever your list looks like on X day is what it is, then fine. Asking you to undergo extra steps to get there, i.e. redundancies, should go both way. How anyone can be so dense to not realize that really amazes me.
 
You guys are forgetting that not everyone is in the same situation as you. Automatically certifying would be a huge liability, because it is a binding contract. There are people who don't certify a list because they change their mind, they find a spot elsewhere or they never interviewed anywhere and are only involved to participate in the SOAP. Binding them to a match would not only adversely affect them and the programs, it'll also be a disservice to these other applicants that don't match because of them.

As for sending an email reminder, that's reasonable, but I actually thought I got reminders from NRMP (as well as 5 other places), but honestly don't remember because like most other people, I certified day 1 and then recertified every time I made a change (which was often in that 1st week). Does the PRISM app have a reminder? Seriously, I feel like I remember getting multiple messages about certifying my ROL.

I think the idea of opening it up the next day for people who weren't responsible enough to certify is ridiculous. How long do you even give them to reply? Why do they get more time when others don't have that luxury? It's a ridiculous proposal. At some point you have to take personal responsibility for your actions and future. I get that people don't want to, but it's necessary. A lot of life involves that, especially in a career of medicine.

Also, regarding saving previous ROLs. NRMP saves the most recent certified ROL, but I think aProgDirector was implying that it save both the certified ROL and changes that were made but not necessarily certified.

EDIT: OK, so I checked, and I actually did get emails, but one was from my school, one was from the NRMP describing what I'm supposed to do if I matched in the NMS match (explicitly mentions the ROL deadline), and one was from a program at which I interviewed. Also at the start of the ROL period I got an NRMP email indicating the deadline in bold red font. I generally agree that an email 24-48 hrs before the deadline would be reasonable, but again I don't necessarily think it irresponsible for the NRMP to NOT do that. They really do tell us repeatedly in many different places.
 
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Giovanotto said:
You're missing the point (and so is everyone else arguing against a fail safe). There's a deadline and then there is the redundancy of asking applicants to certify their list after they've already made it. What does "certifying" it even mean? I almost didn't know I had to certify my list until I came to sdn. Certify it from what to what?

Had the deadline meant = whatever your list looks like on X day is what it is, then fine. Asking you to undergo extra steps to get there, i.e. redundancies, should go both way. How anyone can be so dense to not realize that really amazes me.
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I've no doubt that it does since somehow you went through the process and didn't know you had to certify before SDN told you. I mean, look at the NRMP website page about Ranking Programs: Ranking Residency Programs - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

It mentions certifying your list in the first set of links (complete with PDF guide) and then certifying the list has its own separate section below that.

As for what it means, its you saying "This is the list I want the Match algorithm to use". Seems pretty obvious to me. It means you've thought it about and this is the final list you want.

It makes sense, I knew lots of people that would certify and then go back in and tinker but decide the changes they made weren't what they actually wanted and so didn't certify those last minute changes. This way they don't have to go back and change everything to what it was before.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I've no doubt that it does since somehow you went through the process and didn't know you had to certify before SDN told you. I mean, look at the NRMP website page about Ranking Programs: Ranking Residency Programs - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

It mentions certifying your list in the first set of links (complete with PDF guide) and then certifying the list has its own separate section below that.

As for what it means, its you saying "This is the list I want the Match algorithm to use". Seems pretty obvious to me. It means you've thought it about and this is the final list you want.

It makes sense, I knew lots of people that would certify and then go back in and tinker but decide the changes they made weren't what they actually wanted and so didn't certify those last minute changes. This way they don't have to go back and change everything to what it was before.
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Since you appear to be a VA physician, you may be familiar with the following scenario:

I went to the VA recently to drop off my paperwork and to get fingerprinted for my final rotation of medical school. I signed my name probably 10 times on those forms, but I forgot to sign my name on one of those forms at the very top of the page. Then I went to get fingerprinted, but they wouldn’t accept my ID since it says “not for federal use”.

Should I have failed this rotation on the spot, delay graduation, and not match as some sort of professionalism issue? Or should I have simply been allowed a second opportunity to sign the last signature and go home to bring my passport in to get fingerprinted?
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Since you appear to be a VA physician, you may be familiar with the following scenario:

I went to the VA recently to drop off my paperwork and to get fingerprinted for my final rotation of medical school. I signed my name probably 10 times on those forms, but I forgot to sign my name on one of those forms at the very top of the page. Then I went to get fingerprinted, but they wouldn’t accept my ID since it says “not for federal use”.

Should I have failed this rotation on the spot, delay graduation, and not match as some sort of professionalism issue? Or should I have simply been allowed a second opportunity to sign the last signature and go home to bring my passport in to get fingerprinted?
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Why wasn’t your paperwork done earlier? Mine was done and confirmed 4 months prior to my start date
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Since you appear to be a VA physician, you may be familiar with the following scenario:

I went to the VA recently to drop off my paperwork and to get fingerprinted for my final rotation of medical school. I signed my name probably 10 times on those forms, but I forgot to sign my name on one of those forms at the very top of the page. Then I went to get fingerprinted, but they wouldn’t accept my ID since it says “not for federal use”.

Should I have failed this rotation on the spot, delay graduation, and not match as some sort of professionalism issue? Or should I have simply been allowed a second opportunity to sign the last signature and go home to bring my passport in to get fingerprinted?
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I'm not but I had VA rotations in med school so I'm familiar with the VA.

For the analogy to work, you would have had to wait until 4:30pm on the last day to get all of that paperwork done and then forgot to complete the forms. In that case, if they didn't let you start the rotation and you thus failed it the fault would be yours.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I'm not but I had VA rotations in med school so I'm familiar with the VA.

For the analogy to work, you would have had to wait until 4:30pm on the last day to get all of that paperwork done and then forgot to complete the forms. In that case, if they didn't let you start the rotation and you thus failed it the fault would be yours.
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For my analogy to work, they would have just accepted my paperwork, 4 weeks prior to the deadline, but wouldn’t have notified me of my error until after the deadline.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
For my analogy to work, they would have just accepted my paperwork, 4 weeks prior to the deadline, but wouldn’t have notified me of my error until after the deadline.
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That's crazy. If only there was some method of looking over your work to make sure everything is in order. And maybe its something you could do multiple times before turning in.

Oh wait, there is: the method I just said.
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
That's crazy. If only there was some method of looking over your work to make sure everything is in order. And maybe its something you could do multiple times before turning in.

Oh wait, there is: the method I just said.
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Ok, I think I have my answer.

I’m sure somewhere down the line one of my doctors will have forgotten to fill out some random paperwork, but I’ll be glad that someone like you wasn’t on the state medical board to refuse to license him because he forgot a signature.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Ok, I think I have my answer.

I’m sure somewhere down the line one of my doctors will have forgotten to fill out some random paperwork, but I’ll be glad that someone like you wasn’t on the state medical board to refuse to license him because he forgot a signature.
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You clearly haven’t done a lot of applying for a medical license, they will deny it if you don’t have your crap done
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Ok, I think I have my answer.

I’m sure somewhere down the line one of my doctors will have forgotten to fill out some random paperwork, but I’ll be glad that someone like you wasn’t on the state medical board to refuse to license him because he forgot a signature.
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That is exactly how what happens. If you don't complete the license application in its entirety they will refuse to grant you a licence. Depending on the state, its not unusual for them to make you start all over again.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Since you appear to be a VA physician, you may be familiar with the following scenario:

I went to the VA recently to drop off my paperwork and to get fingerprinted for my final rotation of medical school. I signed my name probably 10 times on those forms, but I forgot to sign my name on one of those forms at the very top of the page. Then I went to get fingerprinted, but they wouldn’t accept my ID since it says “not for federal use”.

Should I have failed this rotation on the spot, delay graduation, and not match as some sort of professionalism issue? Or should I have simply been allowed a second opportunity to sign the last signature and go home to bring my passport in to get fingerprinted?
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im guessing you needed a REAL ID for it to be accepted? Don’t want to be harsh but that is something that you’re told about in advance. It is a huge deal when it comes to airports too.

Either way, i keep seeing in your posts that you keep acting like you don’t need personal accountability. Signing all pages on paperwork or remembering to certify your ROL should be something you can handle on your own. (That said, they easily could have told you when they caught the missed signature to come and sign it...)
 
VA Hopeful Dr said:
I've no doubt that it does since somehow you went through the process and didn't know you had to certify before SDN told you. I mean, look at the NRMP website page about Ranking Programs: Ranking Residency Programs - The Match, National Resident Matching Program

It mentions certifying your list in the first set of links (complete with PDF guide) and then certifying the list has its own separate section below that.

As for what it means, its you saying "This is the list I want the Match algorithm to use". Seems pretty obvious to me. It means you've thought it about and this is the final list you want.

It makes sense, I knew lots of people that would certify and then go back in and tinker but decide the changes they made weren't what they actually wanted and so didn't certify those last minute changes. This way they don't have to go back and change everything to what it was before.
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The density of this reply makes me question whether the moon does still in fact rotate around earth.
 
At the risk of driving this thread further off the rails with another analogy...I think we can value both personal responsibility and failsafes. I trust all of you to check my medication allergies, myself to notify you of said allergies, and both of us to be aware of the common antibiotic cross-reactivities but I still want the EHR to do that "patient has an allergy to that, choose another antibiotic or override this message" pop-up thing.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
All right. Fine guys. Let’s just design a system with minimal fail safes. Sounds like the opposite of medicine to me.
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I don’t get it. We have a month to submit and certify one of the single most important parts of med school... that should be plenty of time to set yourself calendar reminders, get it done, check to make sure it’s done, and recheck it one last time. Shucks, it’s even enough time to text a few friends and make sure they got it done too just for giggles.

We don’t really need that much hand holding here, do we?
 
star.buck said:
I don’t get it. We have a month to submit and certify one of the single most important parts of med school... that should be plenty of time to set yourself calendar reminders, get it done, check to make sure it’s done, and recheck it one last time. Shucks, it’s even enough time to text a few friends and make sure they got it done too just for giggles.

We don’t really need that much hand holding here, do we?
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To rehash this debate:

The government automatically registered me for the draft when I turned 18. Not that I would have forgotten to register, but if I did, would you rather they register for me or arrest me?
 
Dantrolene FC said:
To rehash this debate:

The government automatically registered me for the draft when I turned 18. Not that I would have forgotten to register, but if I did, would you rather they register for me or arrest me?
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I'm pretty sure need to actively register for selective service. Some states allow or require you to register when you get a drivers license/permit, but you are still registering yourself—nobody is automatically registered when he turns 18.
 
longhaul3 said:
I'm pretty sure need to actively register for selective service. Some states allow or require you to register when you get a drivers license/permit, but you are still registering yourself—nobody is automatically registered when he turns 18.
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Exactly a month before I turned 18, I received a letter in the mail informing me I was automatically signed up for the selective service.
 
sb247 said:
The same people who that same year will kill someone if they save orders and don’t place them? Nah, they need to be an adult and accomplish the task
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this dude is always so harsh with his posts
 
Dantrolene FC said:
Exactly a month before I turned 18, I received a letter in the mail informing me I was automatically signed up for the selective service.
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Interesting. Did you have your license/permit at that time? I would bet that you signed something stating you agree to be enrolled. I'm almost positive nobody is 100% automatically enrolled just by virtue of turning 18.
 
longhaul3 said:
Interesting. Did you have your license/permit at that time? I would bet that you signed something stating you agree to be enrolled. I'm almost positive nobody is 100% automatically enrolled just by virtue of turning 18.
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Yeah, I had my license. Who knows how it happened, but it happened.
 
star.buck said:
I don’t get it. We have a month to submit and certify one of the single most important parts of med school... that should be plenty of time to set yourself calendar reminders, get it done, check to make sure it’s done, and recheck it one last time. Shucks, it’s even enough time to text a few friends and make sure they got it done too just for giggles.

We don’t really need that much hand holding here, do we?
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Sometimes, some reminders can help

For reference, I have to send several reminders to my residents for various tasks, deadlines...which some have mentioned that if they weren't notified would have completely forgotten. We would have had several residents who failed to get their medical license renewed, ACLS expired, etc. Someone almost forgot to register for their board exam recently!

You can argue that they need more personal responsibility, which is probably true, but sending one reminder to certify your ROL wouldn't hurt.
 
Wondering if I could dove-tail off this instead of starting a new thread. I matched Urology in January, do I need to technically withdraw from the NRMP or can I get by with simply not submitting a list?
 
Fission Chips said:
Wondering if I could dove-tail off this instead of starting a new thread. I matched Urology in January, do I need to technically withdraw from the NRMP or can I get by with simply not submitting a list?
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On the chance it’s not automatic you should withdraw to prevent screwing some other applicant
 
Dantrolene FC said:
To rehash this debate:

The government automatically registered me for the draft when I turned 18. Not that I would have forgotten to register, but if I did, would you rather they register for me or arrest me?
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*sigh*

You have this gift for really false dichotomies.

What part of "it's your responsibility " aren't you getting???
 
Dantrolene FC said:
How’s that a false dichotomy? If I failed to register, what is the third option?
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Considering the last indictment for it was in 1986 despite people failing to register every year, the third option is you just never register and then have a lot of trouble getting government benefits or you lose financial aid.

Registering for the selective service just doesn’t really make your point. Your career doesn’t specifically hinge on it. Your entire schooling for 4 years (or more if you include undergrad) hasn’t been focused on being in the selective service. And you didn’t have to put out applications, interview, and then rank which countries you want to be in the selective service for.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
The NRMP should say “Dantrolene, we noticed you didn’t certify your rank list. We extended the deadline so you can go back in and certify it.” Just like the nurse will say “Dr. Dantrolene, our patient doesn’t have any orders and I’m concerned about his wellbeing, can you address this?”

A good nurse will not stand around while their patient dies. Why should the NRMP stand around while our careers die?
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If you can't remember to certify your rank list, you're not ready for residency.

CyrilFiggis said:
No it doesn’t. It only means it can happen. Also besides Columbia, name another program or individual this has happened to? Don’t you think there would have been some cautionary tale posted on here by now?
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In fairness, it's happened to other programs as well. UCSF's child psychiatry match wasn't certified a few years ago. When I was in med school, there was another program that forgot to certify, though I can't remember the institution or specialty.
 
Mass Effect said:
If you can't remember to certify your rank list, you're not ready for residency.



In fairness, it's happened to other programs as well. UCSF's child psychiatry match wasn't certified a few years ago. When I was in med school, there was another program that forgot to certify, though I can't remember the institution or specialty.
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If a med student isn't ready for residency because they forgot to certify their list, then should those programs lose their accreditation because they aren't ready to train doctors? This sounds like a double standard to me, especially considering an applicant does this one time but programs do it annually.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
If a med student isn't ready for residency because they forgot to certify their list, then should those programs lose their accreditation because they aren't ready to train doctors? This sounds like a double standard to me, especially considering an applicant does this one time but programs do it annually.
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But those programs then have to scramble, just like the resident

It’s pretty equitable
 
Dantrolene FC said:
If a med student isn't ready for residency because they forgot to certify their list, then should those programs lose their accreditation because they aren't ready to train doctors? This sounds like a double standard to me, especially considering an applicant does this one time but programs do it annually.
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If a program forgets to certify, there are repercussions and they will enter the SOAP. Same for the MS 4. At this time of year, the MS 4 has ONE job.
 
Mass Effect said:
If a program forgets to certify, there are repercussions and they will enter the SOAP. Same for the MS 4. At this time of year, the MS 4 has ONE job.
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But you didn’t say the medical student should have to scramble. You said the medical student wasn’t ready for residency.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
But you didn’t say the medical student should have to scramble. You said the medical student wasn’t ready for residency.
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The programs also have a million other things to do and sometimes have too many cooks in the kitchen. You only have to take care of you. It sounds like you're trying to find whatever false dichotomy you can just to get the last word. Since obviously no one is going to change their mind on this, it might be best if everyone just agree to disagree.
 
Dantrolene FC said:
But you didn’t say the medical student should have to scramble. You said the medical student wasn’t ready for residency.
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Since you first made this thread you’ve been stunned by the overwhelming negative criticism to your view that the NRMP should hold some responsibility/fault if a student fails to certify. I’m wondering why two weeks later you’re still dug in? This isn’t a 50/50 proposition. Can you just clarify to what extent you believe the students/programs hold the blame for failing to certify?
 
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