Nurses making more than doctors

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link2swim06

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Does this make anyone else feel salty that is interested in FP

A few years of training vs. 8 year with less pay

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/11/news/economy/health_care_doctor_incomes/index.htm?hpt=T2

Really legit question with doctor payments going down will the CNP and nurse anest. salaries also go down?

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Does this make anyone else feel salty that is interested in FP

A few years of training vs. 8 year with less pay

http://money.cnn.com/2010/03/11/news/economy/health_care_doctor_incomes/index.htm?hpt=T2

Really legit question with doctor payments going down will the CNP and nurse anest. salaries also go down?


If you want to have some real fun take this over the anesthesia forum!!!!!


While alot of MD's are ticked off by this sort of thing, in several field's MD's are actually really appreciative of NP's.

For example, If you go over to the psych forum you can see a thread where several of the attendings talk about how important Psych NP's who can prescribe meds are for getting adequate care to those who need it. In the Peds forums NNP's are highly respected and appreciated.
 
"Once nurses and physicians arrive at anesthesia training, we use the same textbooks and same cases. The training is not too different between the two groups," she said. "We all deliver anesthesia the same way."

soon we won't need anesthesiologists, just nurse anesthetists. they're exactly the same, right?
 
I have never heard the phrase "make you feel salty" before... Interesting.

And I guess this is just another reason not to go into it for the money
 
That's an odd comparison. Why wouldn't you compare CRNAs to anesthesiologists? Or FNPs to family practitioners??? I guess that wouln't make very interesting news.
 
While alot of MD's are ticked off by this sort of thing, in several field's MD's are actually really appreciative of NP's.

For example, If you go over to the psych forum you can see a thread where several of the attendings talk about how important Psych NP's who can prescribe meds are for getting adequate care to those who need it. In the Peds forums NNP's are highly respected and appreciated.

In the real world MDs and NPs/PAs get along when there is clear delineation of duty. What many physicians have a problem with - and me as well, from a patient's standpoint - is the push for autonomy with no corresponding increase in clinical education. NPs receive a paltry education compared to PAs, let alone MDs/DOs. So they introduce the DNP, which adds NO extra clinical training and is mostly concerned with the business end of running a clinic. Ridiculous.
 
In the real world MDs and NPs/PAs get along when there is clear delineation of duty. What many physicians have a problem with - and me as well, from a patient's standpoint - is the push for autonomy with no corresponding increase in clinical education. NPs receive a paltry education compared to PAs, let alone MDs/DOs. So they introduce the DNP, which adds NO extra clinical training and is mostly concerned with the business end of running a clinic. Ridiculous.

I would suspect someone who just finished NP degree would have more clinical experience than someone who just finished PA degree (unless of course the person was a RN before going to PA school).

In most cases NP already would have had BS in nursing from somewhere, worked a couple years then applied for the 2 year MSN degree.
 
In the real world MDs and NPs/PAs get along when there is clear delineation of duty. What many physicians have a problem with - and me as well, from a patient's standpoint - is the push for autonomy with no corresponding increase in clinical education. NPs receive a paltry education compared to PAs, let alone MDs/DOs. So they introduce the DNP, which adds NO extra clinical training and is mostly concerned with the business end of running a clinic. Ridiculous.

Just to be a devil's advocate: NP training assumes a significant amount of clinical time prior to beginning training. Thats real clinical time, not "I volunteered at a hospital and fluffed patient's pillows" clinical time.
 
I would suspect someone who just finished NP degree would have more clinical experience than someone who just finished PA degree (unless of course the person was a RN before going to PA school).

In most cases NP already would have had BS in nursing from somewhere, worked a couple years then applied for the 2 year MSN degree.

I don't know any stats on the matter, but PA schools also mostly require healthcare experience, and there are so few slots for so many applicants (a problem the blossoming industry of NP schools DOES NOT have) that if you have no experience you probably aren't going to get in to begin with. There are PA schools that do not require experience (and direct-entry NP schools) but again, there's the applicant selection thing. Many PAs were previously paramedics, EMTs, PTAs or RNs.
 
CRNA's require a BSN (4 years), 1 year working in an ICU setting (typically 2 years to get there for most people), and then 2 years of CRNA school. Minimum 7 years of studies, typically much more because people don't think of CRNA right away after nursing school (they wanna make money).

It's not a cakewalk.

A lot of advance degree health schools also require these "healthcare work experiences" that most pre-meds don't have... because they're too busy spending their time trying to understand Grignard reagents, Bernoulli's continuity of flow, and the pKa of a Tyrosine.
 
I would also like to add to this thread that while I feel pretty salty in general today, I do not know what that means in relation to this post.
 
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You're full of electrolytes lately.
 
CRNA's require a BSN (4 years), 1 year working in an ICU setting (typically 2 years to get there for most people), and then 2 years of CRNA school. Minimum 7 years of studies, typically much more because people don't think of CRNA right away after nursing school (they wanna make money).

It's not a cakewalk.

A lot of advance degree health schools also require these "healthcare work experiences" that most pre-meds don't have... because they're too busy spending their time trying to understand Grignard reagents, Bernoulli's continuity of flow, and the pKa of a Tyrosine.

While I'm sure it's no "cakewalk," there is a big difference between nursing school followed by working for 4 years as an RN (typically 3-4 12 hour shifts a week, getting paid a salary/hourly wage), and a pre-medical undergraduate courseload followed by spending 4 years in medical school. While the RN is certainly gaining clinical exposure, it is in the role of a nurse, not as a physician. The pre-med/medical student is learning the scientific basis for human development, health, and disease. As physicians, we are expected to be scientists as well as clinicians.

While all of those organic chemistry reactions, physics courses, and biochemistry principles that you invoked may seem like a useless, archaic waste of time to the 3rd or 4th year medical student out on the wards, remember that it is this exact same mathematical, physical, chemical, and biological science framework upon which you build your knowledge base. I understand now why I had to take calculus and physical chemistry; why I had to suffer through topics like synthesis lab, electromagnetism, and relativity. Even if they aren't completely relevant to clinical medicine, these courses and exercises shape the way that you think and critically analyze problems. Statistical knowledge guides your interpretation of literature, and an in-depth comprehension of cell and molecular biological principles allows you to understand diagnostic testing and the pathogenesis of many diseases.

Most of us came to medical school for the academic challenge as well as the satisfaction of working with and treating people's problems. We wanted to understand the basic science behind health, disease, and clinical medicine. While I agree that "healthcare work experience" is important, this is something that you will get plenty of in medical school and residency.

For the record, many PA and NP programs are now accepting applicants with very little or no clinical experience, instead of the 10-20 year veterans that were enrolling a decade + ago.
 
Yeah, I wasn't putting down either side. I'm just mentioning the differences involved in the education of either professions.

CRNAs are of course always trying to step on the MDA's toes. You only have to visit a CRNA forum to witness this from the horse's mouth. Many are pushing for the ability to work without ANY MDA oversight. While I think there's merit in increasing anesthesia coverage by increasing CRNA autonomy, the MDA is there to handle multiple complexities and emergencies that CRNA's aren't trained to... even if the CRNA may have more experience than a new resident or newly minted attending (although I doubt this is the case.)
 
Here is an interesting quote from an AA (PA who does anesthesiology)

"If you have surgery in a University Hospital in July or August, you are at risk for being cared for by an MD that has never provided anesthesia solo before."
 
AA is a pretty nice gig! They make about $25k/yr less than CRNA's though. Plus, I don't believe they have nearly as much autonomy.

There's always a shortage of anesthesia... would you rather be cared for by a solo experienced CRNA or a freshly minted MDA attending?

Toss-up.
 
:thumbup:.
no dont go after the money. and appreciate nurses' hard work, (I'm sure they are adequately educated to perform their job function).

I have never heard the phrase "make you feel salty" before... Interesting.

And I guess this is just another reason not to go into it for the money
 
AA is a pretty nice gig! They make about $25k/yr less than CRNA's though. Plus, I don't believe they have nearly as much autonomy.

There's always a shortage of anesthesia... would you rather be cared for by a solo experienced CRNA or a freshly minted MDA attending?

Toss-up.

Or in her case I think she was referring to Anesthesia residents
 
CRNA's require a BSN (4 years), 1 year working in an ICU setting (typically 2 years to get there for most people), and then 2 years of CRNA school. Minimum 7 years of studies, typically much more because people don't think of CRNA right away after nursing school (they wanna make money).

It's not a cakewalk.

A lot of advance degree health schools also require these "healthcare work experiences" that most pre-meds don't have... because they're too busy spending their time trying to understand Grignard reagents, Bernoulli's continuity of flow, and the pKa of a Tyrosine.

I'm sure its no cake walk, but its no MD/DO. Tabulate the hours of training and breadth of knowledge between the two and tell me they're still comparable. I know I would want a physician watching over me over a CRNA any day.
 
Well the problem is there aren't enough MDA's! And anesthesia still needs to be done whether the MDA feels like waking up early that day or not, heh.
 
Another reason why going to medical school is a waste of time. There is no way I would do primary care if a CRNA is going to make more money than me.
 
wow, the last paragraph of that article is very insulting to our colleagues in anesthesia.

I just peeked in the gas forum and they're talking about it as well..
 
Well the problem is there aren't enough MDA's! And anesthesia still needs to be done whether the MDA feels like waking up early that day or not, heh.

Just for kicks, please go use the acronym "MDA" on the anesthesia forum
 
So much for the BS about how medicine is a "supply-demand" market, when in fact this is just one example of how it's a market controlled by arcane, unfair and illogical incentives.
 
One day we'll see an article about a new nursing degree where they do surgery too.
 
"Once nurses and physicians arrive at anesthesia training, we use the same textbooks and same cases. The training is not too different between the two groups," she said.

Wow. Only a nurse would say something as naïve as that and sincerely believe it.
 
Another reason why going to medical school is a waste of time. There is no way I would do primary care if a CRNA is going to make more money than me.
Where is it written that a medical degree entitles you to the highest salary in the hospital? God forbid that nurses make a career for themselves as well. If I were you, I'd be more worried about being raped by CEO's, admins, and human resource personal. :rolleyes:
A lot of the various nursing masters degree programs argue that they are, in fact, providing the same services and outcomes as board certified physicians for a fraction of the cost. In other words, we're overtraining ourselves for the job that we do. CRNAs in particular make a very good case: there are over a dozen states where they practice independently of physician supervision and there hasn't been any drastic increase in morbidity or mortality despite the fact that they are basically doing everything an anesthesiologist would do without a board certified physician to consult. Welcome to the free market.
Excellent post.
 
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Wow. Only a nurse would say something as naïve as that and sincerely believe it.
Wow. Only a medical student who has neither gone through an anesthesiology residency or been a CRNA could say something as naive and sincerely believe it.



:idea:
 
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And how ingenious of the author to compare apples to oranges.

Why not compare NPs with FPs? NPs can make less than your specialized RNs. shock :eek:. NOT.

How about comparing CRNAs to Anesthesiologist? Yeah, salaries are not even close. shocker again :eek:! NOT.


Instead of asking why CRNAs get paid "so much", you all should be asking why family physicians get paid so little. :confused:
 
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A lot of the various nursing masters degree programs argue that they are, in fact, providing the same services and outcomes as board certified physicians for a fraction of the cost. In other words, we're overtraining ourselves for the job that we do. CRNAs in particular make a very good case: there are over a dozen states where they practce independently of physician supervision and there hasn't been any drastic increase in morbidity or mortality despite the fact that they are basically doing everything an anesthesiologist would do without a board certified physician to consult. Welcome to the free market.

Would be interesting to see a study done on surgeries staffed by a CRNA vs MD Anesthesiologist. Hasn't been a "drastic" increase... how about a statistically important one?
 
Would be interesting to see a study done on surgeries staffed by a CRNA vs MD Anesthesiologist. Hasn't been a "drastic" increase... how about a statistically important one?
Probably would have heard about it if there was one....no?


And just out of curiosity, what do you all believe is fair salary for a CRNA?


If you all put as much time into raising the pay of FPs as you do hating on CRNAs, perhaps FPs would be rolling in the millions. :laugh:
 
Probably would have heard about it if there was one....no?

Well I figure if there was a study done showing that there is or isn't a statistically important difference in patient care... it would be posted and cited on either the nurses forum or the anesthesiologists forum. Didn't see one yet.
 
There has definitely been studies done comparing a nurse and a doctor delivering the same treatment to the patient and looking at the outcome and a nurse can provide NO WHERE NEAR the results a doctor can.
 
There has definitely been studies done comparing a nurse and a doctor delivering the same treatment to the patient and looking at the outcome and a nurse can provide NO WHERE NEAR the results a doctor can.
I see....and where is the link to the source that supports this claim?
 
There has definitely been studies done comparing a nurse and a doctor delivering the same treatment to the patient and looking at the outcome and a nurse can provide NO WHERE NEAR the results a doctor can.

Well I was referring specifically to CNRA vs MD in anesthesia.


I see....and where is the link to the source that supports this claim?

I think there has been a study done on NP vs MD for general patient care... but I can't remember where I read it.
 
Can I catch a glimpse into your crystal ball?
 
I don't know if I'm speaking crazy.. but what happened to people that actually WANT to be doctors?
 
You again?
whambulance.jpg
 
It's one specific type of nurse. A type of nurse that will be oversupplied in the coming years because everyone wants to be a CRNA. The average nurse will never make more than the average primary care doctor.
 
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