Nurses making more than doctors

[ducki303]

Does anyone know the limits of the CRNA's anesthesiologist?

I doubt that they would really replace the need of a Physician. Even in Derm, care-extender's who specialize in the field are allowed to only perform a limited number of precedures, such as minor shaves and liquid nitrogen treatments, and aren't given much authoritiy in diagnozing or reading paths. When the ball drops, it's still going to be the Physician who's going to pick up the slack. A patient in our office came in complaining about his past course of treatment. His end point of complaint was that he was being cared for by a PA (he thought it was a Physician)and felt like when trouble hit, his PA isn't know how to proceed and his treatment wasn't progressing as he would have hoped. Patients are still looking towards the Physician to take lead in their care and treatment.

Many other fields have defined roles and responsiblities between the verious positions within the field. Ie. government, law, engineers. There's a shared responsbility towards the same goal, and everyone plays their given part. I don't know why in medicien every group is trying to encroach on eachother's area of responsiblity. Maybe it has to do with the "pomp and purpose" in the health field -- "Chiropractors/D.O./etc aren't REAL doctors," said the MD. We don't see over zealous Paralegals trying to lead in a case or overachieveing cabinate members of the government trying to do the job of the President. If these folks do feel they have the ability, they go through the steps needed to obtain the JD or run of the desired office.

Right?

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[swamprat]

Money is not everything --- I thought we were doing this for helping people?

If you're really concerned about making money --- go into investment banking or dentistry.

You won't find it in medicine though.

 

[morning]

I love the audacity you guys have. You are sitting here knocking on a fellow. You guys have NO CLUE what it is like to be in medical school and work like an animal. So get off your high horses about "wanting to be a doctor."

I agree....do not go to medical school

There was a FELLOW arguing for Obama's HCR plan in one of the threads here. For every FELLOW arguing one side there is a FELLOW arguing the opposite. It turns out that FELLOWS are human beings and subscribe to a wide variety of different opinions. Weird!

 

[crprep23]

I love the audacity you guys have. You are sitting here knocking on a fellow. You guys have NO CLUE what it is like to be in medical school and work like an animal. So get off your high horses about "wanting to be a doctor."

I agree....do not go to medical school

Your "audacity" to assume that we would even remotely take your comments seriously and choose a different path is somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? Maybe you should "get off your high horse" and come to the realization that you were in the same position at one time. It's people like you that I would love to see stuck in geriatrics giving physicals to uncle lester all day. Turn your head and cough!

 

[Bartelby]

Money is not everything --- I thought we were doing this for helping people?

If you're really concerned about making money --- go into investment banking or dentistry.

You won't find it in medicine though.

Money is not everything, but it is a big concern. Doctors should not have to live like paupers, we deserve monetary compensation for all the sacrifices we put in. Also, the less the pay is the less talented (on average) the people going into that field/specialty will be.

That said I think you have to decide what level of income is okay for you. I think if you have ~100k in loan debt then $180k/year is plenty.

As for how much more work we put into becoming doctors, I agree. There will probably be a lot of smart people flooding out of the MD programs in favor of CRNA anesthetist or similar programs in the future if the pay/lifestyle trends continue as they are. I would argue that is a bad thing, but maybe that is short sighted. If they can really be trained to the point that they are as good as MDs it's actually a good thing to decrease the training burden.

 

[d1ony5u5]

Nilf, you have a real talent for coming up with ******ed threads.

I second the sentiment that you show the way by retiring from the profession. ASAP.

 

[zebalong]

It is crazy to me that people find it offensive that a "nurse" can make more then a doc, since a nurse has less years of education and less invested $ and time into it. Simple fact is anesthesia pays more then primary care. This isn't something new, and it doesn't change the fact that a docs in anesthesia still pays well over 2x what a nurse anesthesia gets paid. Comparing training and opprotunity costs just to justify how "unfair" it is that a specialized nurse gets paid more then a primary care doc is ridiculous because then you can compare any other high end career and make it seems that primary care docs are shafted- the compensation sucks- thats why most medical students stay away from it. If you really have an issue with it then try to change the system and the amount primary care's are compensated instead. I'm a nurse, and yes if i decided to not go to med school and go into anesthesia or upper level management or hell even stay within cali and just be a staff nurse where we make $$$ i'd be ahead financially. But *shrug* aside from that i STILL want to go to med school being a nurse ISN'T being a doc, no matter how much you are paid and what you are doing.

 

[emermed]

"The creation of an EM residency somehow instantly made thousands of FPs unqalified to work in ERs. Of COURSE you need a 7 year combined plastics residency to give botox and perform breast enhancements. I'm sorry but if we're going to submit to the idea that the government has to be the one certifying what you can and can't do with a given level of medical training, we at the very least need a way to certify that more advanced levels of training are, in fact, necessary compared to cheaper, more widely available levels of training."

Umm...there is actually pretty decent evidence that people trained in emergency medicine have better outcomes than people trained in family practice. As is posted above there is evidence that MD anesthesthia has better outcomes than CRNA (1/400 to 1/800 mortality, which is kind of a big deal). The evidence overwhelming supports the idea that physicians are the best trained to provide most advanced medical care, the politics on the other hand tends to go the other way.

 

[IMDoc607]

Your "audacity" to assume that we would even remotely take your comments seriously and choose a different path is somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? Maybe you should "get off your high horse" and come to the realization that you were in the same position at one time. It's people like you that I would love to see stuck in geriatrics giving physicals to uncle lester all day. Turn your head and cough!

Lol.....you know nothing. I would love for you to talk to my fellow classmates. Let us know how you feel when you are doing this. It's people like you that I would love yo get rejected and never make it into medical school. Put your head to the pillow and cry hahahaha

 

[IMDoc607]

Your "audacity" to assume that we would even remotely take your comments seriously and choose a different path is somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? Maybe you should "get off your high horse" and come to the realization that you were in the same position at one time. It's people like you that I would love to see stuck in geriatrics giving physicals to uncle lester all day. Turn your head and cough!

I hope you take Me seriously so you don't find yourself in the same position.

 

[PrinceVersed]

It is crazy to me that people find it offensive that a "nurse" can make more then a doc, since a nurse has less years of education and less invested $ and time into it. Simple fact is anesthesia pays more then primary care. This isn't something new, and it doesn't change the fact that a docs in anesthesia still pays well over 2x what a nurse anesthesia gets paid. Comparing training and opprotunity costs just to justify how "unfair" it is that a specialized nurse gets paid more then a primary care doc is ridiculous because then you can compare any other high end career and make it seems that primary care docs are shafted- the compensation sucks- thats why most medical students stay away from it. If you really have an issue with it then try to change the system and the amount primary care's are compensated instead. I'm a nurse, and yes if i decided to not go to med school and go into anesthesia or upper level management or hell even stay within cali and just be a staff nurse where we make $$$ i'd be ahead financially. But *shrug* aside from that i STILL want to go to med school being a nurse ISN'T being a doc, no matter how much you are paid and what you are doing.

agreed

Lol.....you know nothing. I would love for you to talk to my fellow classmates. Let us know how you feel when you are doing this. It's people like you that I would love yo get rejected and never make it into medical school. Put your head to the pillow and cry hahahaha

wow...seriously?

 

[Nilf]

Leave the profession. All you do is whine. If it is that bad find a new job. Thanks for posting the informative link though. If the whole med school thing doesn't work out I guess its off to CRNA training

Many folks bring up the point that I should vote with my feet and, since I discourage young people form entering medicine, I should quit the medical profession myself. Fair point, and I'd like to address that.

In the final analysis, I have sunk in too much time, effort and money, and I have effectively closed too many other career paths to quit medicine now. I plan to stick around for next several years. Akin to watchful waiting. Depending on my financial situation, available opportunities, and situation in healthcare industry, I may quit, or at least go part time. I have seen other doctors do it.

However, you are lucky, because you have NOT sunk a decade of your life into medicine yet. My posts are meant to warn you not to do it.

 

[IMDoc607]

agreed



wow...seriously?

Yes.....seriously

Do yourself a favor and just talk to some medical students.

 

[crprep23]

Lol.....you know nothing. I would love for you to talk to my fellow classmates. Let us know how you feel when you are doing this. It's people like you that I would love yo get rejected and never make it into medical school. Put your head to the pillow and cry hahahaha

Based on your eloquence, or lack thereof, I don't believe I'll have any problem. Also, the fact that you backed a "fellow" that used a credible source such as yahoo to convey his point speaks volumes about your intelligence. I don't know what you did to get into medical school, but something tells me your personal statement wasn't the determining factor. Have a nice day.

 

[IMDoc607]

Many folks bring up the point that I should vote with my feet and, since I discourage young people form entering medicine, I should quit the medical profession myself. Fair point, and I'd like to address that.

In the final analysis, I have sunk in too much time, effort and money, and I have effectively closed many other career paths to quit medicine now. I plan to stick around for next several years. Akin to watchful waiting. Depending on my financial situation, available opportunities, and situation in healthcare industry, I may quit, or at least go part time.

However, you are lucky, because you have NOT sunk a decade of your life into medicine yet. My posts are meant to warn you not to do it.

 

[VOP]

So, are you a bad-ass hair day, or a bad ass-hair day? I would think if you had enough ass hair to have it affect the quality of your day, EVERY day would be a bad ass-hair day.

Oh Snap!! don't mess with Geekchick

 

[IMDoc607]

Based on your eloquence, or lack thereof, I don't believe I'll have any problem. Also, the fact that you backed a "fellow" that used a credible source such as yahoo to convey his point speaks volumes about your intelligence. I don't know what you did to get into medical school, but something tells me your personal statement wasn't the determining factor. Have a nice day.

Good response....I like it.

On the contrary, I got many positive responses on my personal statement!!

This is what 4 years of medical school does.

Ok, enough with the bickering. Seriously, your perspective on medicine changes when you are in med school. I used to be the same way. All you wanted was to get in and I understand that. Go ahead and criticize NILF and me. That is fine, but remember this thread when you are in your 3rd year on your OB rotation and looking at 200K of debt.

 

[IMDoc607]

Based on your eloquence, or lack thereof, I don't believe I'll have any problem. Also, the fact that you backed a "fellow" that used a credible source such as yahoo to convey his point speaks volumes about your intelligence. I don't know what you did to get into medical school, but something tells me your personal statement wasn't the determining factor. Have a nice day.

Hey genius....go on gas forum and see what they are saying. Oh yea thats right....they lack intelligence also right?

Naive premed

 

[Geekchick921]

Good response....I like it.

On the contrary, I got many positive responses on my personal statement!!

This is what 4 years of medical school does.

Ok, enough with the bickering. Seriously, your perspective on medicine changes when you are in med school. I used to be the same way. All you wanted was to get in and I understand that. Go ahead and criticize NILF and me. That is fine, but remember this thread when you are in your 3rd year on your OB rotation and looking at 200K of debt.

I'm actually really looking forward to my OB rotation, despite the 3AM alarm clock.

 

[BrianUM]

so the highest paid nurses possible make as much as the lowest paid doctor's possible....sounds about right

140 k though is chump change to some of the interventional radiologist and neurosurgeons of the earth

at the end of the day, on avg, doctors make more than nurses and get much more respect than nurses and call the shots

 

[crprep23]

Hey genius....go on gas forum and see what they are saying. Oh yea thats right....they lack intelligence also right?

Naive premed

I would be stoked to have a condescending tool be my physician. Seriously, do you feel as if you are better because you are in medical school already? Because if so, I truly feel bad for you based on the fact that your perception of your self worth is based on this and subsequently calling people "naive premeds." I will also leave medical school with no debt because I have a financial plan in place, so there goes that argument. Glad you think I'm a genius though.

 

[dru2002]

I love the audacity you guys have. You are sitting here knocking on a fellow. You guys have NO CLUE what it is like to be in medical school and work like an animal. So get off your high horses about "wanting to be a doctor."

I agree....do not go to medical school

Priceless. From up on his horse he tells me to get off mine (the I've been to medical school and you haven't so you just can't understand high horse). From reading many of his threads I've established that the OP, fellow or not, is like the guy on the side of the road holding up the cardboard sign about the end being near. After a while you just get sick of it. Was that audacious enough for you?

 

[elektroshok]

I would be stoked to have a condescending tool be my physician. Seriously, do you feel as if you are better because you are in medical school already? Because if so, I truly feel bad for you based on the fact that your perception of your self worth is based on this and subsequently calling people "naive premeds." I will also leave medical school with no debt because I have a financial plan in place, so there goes that argument. Glad you think I'm a genius though.

aka parents lol

 

[Geekchick921]

Priceless. From up on his horse he tells me to get off mine (the I've been to medical school and you haven't so you just can't understand high horse). From reading many of his threads I've established that the OP, fellow or not, is like the guy on the side of the road holding up the cardboard sign about the end being near. After a while you just get sick of it. Was that audacious enough for you?

This is all I can think of when I read those type of posts, seriously.

 

[morning]

Hey genius....go on gas forum and see what they are saying. Oh yea thats right....they lack intelligence also right?

Naive premed

Are you going to respond to what I said? If the word of fellows is law, what about the fellows who AREN'T dismayed at their lives?

The problem with anecdotes is that there's always someone who has one that conflicts with yours. Nothing bothers me like people who think an anecdote is golden proof.

 

[crprep23]

aka parents lol

Haha, I wish but actually I spent summers mowing lawns up my senior year of high school and had my dad invest the money for me, as I am not very good with money. Needless to say it has worked out pretty well. 6 summers of work at around 25 hours a week seems to accumulate a nice chunk of change. Not to mention you get a solid tan as a side product.

 

[dru2002]

aka parents lol

That's what I read too. He could have other plans though.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Haha, I wish but actually I spent summers mowing lawns up my senior year of high school and had my dad invest the money for me, as I am not very good with money. Needless to say it has worked out pretty well. 6 summers of work at around 25 hours a week seems to accumulate a nice chunk of change. Not to mention you get a solid tan as a side product.

Essentially 1.5 years of part-time work and you think thatll foot a 200,000$ bill? Unless your dad is running a Ponzi scheme, I doubt you have your finances set.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Not in it for the money,

But not every one who wants to be compensated fairly is "in it for the money." This is a gross and imature assumption. So check yourself. You are a stupid prigg if you think that after 4 + 4 + (3-7 years depending) that your medical debt will vanish with good sentiments. And btw, I am pro healthcare reform, work with a homeless healthcare program and believe that medical care is right. BUT---->

The issue isnt really that a nurse makes more then a doctor but that primary care doctors MUST be paid more if healthcare reform is ever going to work. Preventitive medicine saves MILLIONS of $$$, who is going to do that if all pcps turn away medicare patients.

But give me a F*&ing break if you think doctors dont deserve to be paid for the hellish work they do. Go touch a rainbow somewhere else. No admissions officers in here. Just sayin. Dont be stup*d.

 

[morning]

Essentially 1.5 years of part-time work and you think thatll foot a 200,000$ bill? Unless your dad is running a Ponzi scheme, I doubt you have your finances set.

Hmmm! Have we ever seen crprep23 and Bernie Madoff in the same room?


Think about it!

 

[TheFlashMD]

Not in it for the money,

But not every one who wants to be compensated fairly is "in it for the money." This is a gross and imature assumption. So check yourself. You are a stupid prigg if you think that after 4 + 4 + (3-7 years depending) that your medical debt will vanish with good sentiments. And btw, I am pro healthcare reform, work with a homeless healthcare program and believe that medical care is right. BUT---->

The issue isnt really that a nurse makes more then a doctor but that primary care doctors MUST be paid more if healthcare reform is ever going to work. Preventitive medicine saves MILLIONS of $$$, who is going to do that if all pcps turn away medicare patients.

But give me a F*&ing break if you think doctors dont deserve to be paid for the hellish work they do. Go touch a rainbow somewhere else. No admissions officers in here. Just sayin. Dont be stup*d.

Preventive Care does NOT save money. It actually costs money. Quite a deal of money. It saves lives, not dollars.

 

[swamprat]

Do you really think we need 4 years of medical school? I haven't begun yet but this is a serious question... if your going into EM for example do you really need to go over all that anatomy or memorize all those biochemical pathways? Given you know what you want to do beforehand, couldn't medical school be more directed to what you want to do and cut a year+ out of it and a lot of the rotations you won't ever need to do (like surgery). I mean CRNAs don't take gross anatomy (right? or no?) Again, tell me if I'm wrong but im equating it to like gen eds in college, stuff you need to do just because that's what everyone has to go through to graduate with an MD, even if its not directly related to your field/specialty.

 

[TheFlashMD]

Hmmm! Have we ever seen crprep23 and Bernie Madoff in the same room?


Think about it!

I almost said if your dad is Bernie Madoff... but I thought better of it. lol

 

[morning]

Unfortunately for me I rarely think better of the things I want to say

 

[Brigade4Radiant]

Hey guess what Mr. I know nothing about supply and demand(Nilf). The amount of time you spend in education does not dictate you salary.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Preventive Care does NOT save money. It actually costs money. Quite a deal of money. It saves lives, not dollars.

Either way, my point still stands. Primary care docs should be paid more otherwise reform is flushed! etc etc And saving lives is a GOOD THING!!!

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Preventive Care does NOT save money. It actually costs money. Quite a deal of money. It saves lives, not dollars.

And btw since you are making a sweeping generaliztion you need to check yourself. It does at times.

NEJM

http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/full/358/7/661

EQUALL!!!! So we are both wrong. lol

 

[illegallysmooth]

My $0.02:

Salary (adjusted for work hours) should be a reflection of the amount of experience and skill required to do a job, and therefore the amount of training needed. Period.

In my humble opinion, nursing is nursing and medicine is medicine. PAs and NPs, essentially having masters degrees in healthcare providing, should be employed in similar fashions - that is, an "extra pair of hands" in a healthcare setting. I think that's great.

But I start to see an issue when NPs are expected to perform in a role that completely takes over the responsibilities of a fully trained physician. There's a reason physicians do TWO years of study and TWO years of clinical rotations and THREE OR MORE years of residency. When I put my life in someone's hands, this is the training I expect from them.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just my opinion. I think every member of the healthcare team has their role, and in my opinion, issues arise when these roles are blurred too much.

 

[illegallysmooth]

Preventive Care does NOT save money. It actually costs money. Quite a deal of money. It saves lives, not dollars.

When you say preventative care, you really should identify what you're talking about. It's not the same across the board. Well checks for healthy adults? Cancer screening? Cancer surveillance? Nutritional counseling?

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

My $0.02:

Salary (adjusted for work hours) should be a reflection of the amount of experience and skill required to do a job, and therefore the amount of training needed. Period.

In my humble opinion, nursing is nursing and medicine is medicine. PAs and NPs, essentially having masters degrees in healthcare providing, should be employed in similar fashions - that is, an "extra pair of hands" in a healthcare setting. I think that's great.

But I start to see an issue when NPs are expected to perform in a role that completely takes over the responsibilities of a fully trained physician. There's a reason physicians do TWO years of study and TWO years of clinical rotations and THREE OR MORE years of residency. When I put my life in someone's hands, this is the training I expect from them.

I'm not saying this is right or wrong, it's just my opinion. I think every member of the healthcare team has their role, and in my opinion, issues arise when these roles are blurred too much.

Avatar says it all... SMOOTH!

 

[IMDoc607]

I would be stoked to have a condescending tool be my physician. Seriously, do you feel as if you are better because you are in medical school already? Because if so, I truly feel bad for you based on the fact that your perception of your self worth is based on this and subsequently calling people "naive premeds." I will also leave medical school with no debt because I have a financial plan in place, so there goes that argument. Glad you think I'm a genius though.

No...I do not feel I am better but I am just speaking from experience that you do not have. Am I right or wrong on that? I think its great you are not going to have any debt, but that must also mean you are financially stable.

You are all idealists....you'll see

 

[IMDoc607]

I'm actually really looking forward to my OB rotation, despite the 3AM alarm clock.

Yea ok....

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

No...I do not feel I am better but I am just speaking from experience that you do not have. Am I right or wrong on that? I think its great you are not going to have any debt, but that must also mean you are financially stable.

You are all idealists....you'll see

Doode,

Not me. Read my posts. I am no idealist. I agree with you.

 

[IMDoc607]

Are you going to respond to what I said? If the word of fellows is law, what about the fellows who AREN'T dismayed at their lives?

The problem with anecdotes is that there's always someone who has one that conflicts with yours. Nothing bothers me like people who think an anecdote is golden proof.

I do not mean to give off the perception that I think it is golden proof. With that being said, obviously people can disagree, but don't you think since they are both fellows that they would be in a different position to disagree?

They both know what they got themselves into.

 

[IMDoc607]

Doode,

Not me. Read my posts. I am no idealist. I agree with you.

My bad....at least someone has a realistic and practical way of looking at things.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

My bad....at least someone has a realistic and practical way of looking at things.

The absolute hilarity of some the BSing bleeding hearts in here is just ridic.... oh man..

 

[startswithb]

Essentially 1.5 years of part-time work and you think thatll foot a 200,000$ bill? Unless your dad is running a Ponzi scheme, I doubt you have your finances set.

LOL.

And you're lucky that you didn't have to use that money for things like phone, car, insurance, going out, and future living expenses in college. Financial plan= parents.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

LOL.

And you're lucky that you didn't have to use that money for things like phone, car, insurance, going out, and future living expensives in college. Financial plan= parents.

Seriously,

I paid my way through.

 

[IMDoc607]

The absolute hilarity of some the BSing bleeding hearts in here is just ridic.... oh man..

The absolute hilarity of some of the BSing know it alls in here is just ridic....looking forward to seeing your posts in a couple years....if you make it in.

 

[Caesar]

oh look, Nilf doesn't want us to go to medical school again...