Nurses making more than doctors

[FutureOrthoDoc]

But in the end they're still "just" a nurse. I'm not knocking nurses, but I want to be a doctor because I want to be in control. And like I said, a CRNA oversupply is much more likely than a PCP oversupply physician. New medical schools are opening left and right while residency slots are remaining constant. Plus there's the projected PCP shortage.

I guess none of this applies to me either way because I'm not interested in primary care.

This is honesty you can really sink you teeth into.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[startswithb]

Seriously,

I paid my way through.

Why are you responding to the responses to crprep?

 

[Got Em]

I've always wondered why the doctors lobby is so weak that even nurses can push them around.

The AMA is weak? I'm sorry, but that is a really crazy statement. Any time the government can save money, politicians do whatever it takes to do so and try to improve their chances for re-election. The nursing associations have many members and NPs provide a cheaper alternative (although less knowledge base). The debate is whether this drop off cost effective and responsible ethically.

If you want to know of a "weak" lobbist group, try the APhA....the group for pharmacists.

 

[Soapcat]

Your "audacity" to assume that we would even remotely take your comments seriously and choose a different path is somewhat hypocritical, don't you think? Maybe you should "get off your high horse" and come to the realization that you were in the same position at one time. It's people like you that I would love to see stuck in geriatrics giving physicals to uncle lester all day. Turn your head and cough!

as if you are not going to be old and unhealthy. the way you regard geriatricians is quite offensive

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

The absolute hilarity of some of the BSing know it alls in here is just ridic....looking forward to seeing your posts in a couple years....if you make it in.

I am in! Are you being sarcastic with me? Cant read your tone?

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Why are you responding to the responses to crprep?

I got lost.. lol

 

[ACSurgeon]

Money is not everything --- I thought we were doing this for helping people?

If you're really concerned about making money --- go into investment banking or dentistry.

You won't find it in medicine though.

1- you're not a medical student yet. change your status accordingly, please.
2- let me know once you are a medical student - maybe in April of your second year, once you have enough dept accumulated and you have the monster that is step 1 threatening your existence.
3- You WILL find plenty of money in medicine AND you should be concerned about it. My acceptance letter said nothing about VOLUNTEERING my services as a physician... nor do any contracts after residency. Money is NOT the end goal, but you don't want to feel robbed either.
4- Why would you advocate making less money? I have your type in my class, and it's just silly. One of my favorites was "my teacher friends are getting by just fine with 30K a year, what am I going to do with all the money I make as a FP."
5-end of rant

 

[FutureDoc4]

In response to "Got Em", if you ask most physicians I think most would agree the AMA is a very weak lobby. Physicians are NOT united across specialties and therefore, I think, have a tougher time adequately lobbying for the interest for physicians (because each specialty wants to first protect itself, rather than physicians as a whole). I know many physicians who do not even consider the AMA "their lobby".

In response to Doxycycline, I don't know about you, but I want my ER physician to have a good understanding of anatomy (in case you come in with trauma) and biochemistry (overdoses and poisonings, how they affect you both at the cellular and physiological level). I want a physician that understands medicine from a theoretical and practical standpoint. This is the differences between the practice of medicine and nursing. You can teach anyone to stitch up a wound or make them memorize that with a TCA poisoning you give bicarb, but I want my physician to understand why we do those things. Why do I care if my physician knows why? Because only when you understand why can you adequately respond to new situations and complications that might not be expected by others.

 

[username456789]

In response to "Got Em", if you ask most physicians I think most would agree the AMA is a very weak lobby. Physicians are NOT united across specialties and therefore, I think, have a tougher time adequately lobbying for the interest for physicians (because each specialty wants to first protect itself, rather than physicians as a whole). I know many physicians who do not even consider the AMA "their lobby".

In response to Doxycycline, I don't know about you, but I want my ER physician to have a good understanding of anatomy (in case you come in with trauma) and biochemistry (overdoses and poisonings, how they affect you both at the cellular and physiological level). I want a physician that understands medicine from a theoretical and practical standpoint. This is the differences between the practice of medicine and nursing. You can teach anyone to stitch up a wound or make them memorize that with a TCA poisoning you give bicarb, but I want my physician to understand why we do those things. Why do I care if my physician knows why? Because only when you understand why can you adequately respond to new situations and complications that might not be expected by others.

Agreed on both accounts:

1. The AMA is very weak as a lobbying group, and largely does not reflect the interests of the general physician population. Because physicians are too busy actually doing their jobs.

2. What Doxycycline described is essentially wanting a nurse who can dole out standardized treatments to patients in the ED without much insight into why something's done, or when slight modifications should be made to treatments. Physicians are responsible for managing the care for patients, not just delivering it.

 

[circulus vitios]

No...I do not feel I am better but I am just speaking from experience that you do not have. Am I right or wrong on that? I think its great you are not going to have any debt, but that must also mean you are financially stable.

You are all idealists....you'll see

I'm no idealist. What am I supposed to see?

 

[StormingWynn]

Haha, I wish but actually I spent summers mowing lawns up my senior year of high school and had my dad invest the money for me, as I am not very good with money. Needless to say it has worked out pretty well. 6 summers of work at around 25 hours a week seems to accumulate a nice chunk of change. Not to mention you get a solid tan as a side product.

Holy shish-kabob! I didn't know a 200k bill could be covered with working 25 hours a week in the summers! Wow, someone should have told me! You must have gotten paid a pretty penny. Maybe you should keep that job cause it pays better than both CRNA and Physician.

 

[swamprat]

Yeah I'm not saying I agree or disagree with either way, but for example LECOM-Erie I know has a 3 year PCP pathway.

 

[GoSpursGo]

I'm fairly certain that some people (not naming names ) would manage to find a way to be miserable no matter what they were doing with their life.

 

[dru2002]

This is all I can think of when I read those type of posts, seriously.

Great, now that's all I'll ever think about when I see these threads.

 

[IMDoc607]

I am in! Are you being sarcastic with me? Cant read your tone?

Congrats on your acceptance. Yes I was but I have stopped caring about all this. We disagree so thats cool. I am glad you got where you want to go (no sarcasm).

 

[IMDoc607]

I'm fairly certain that some people (not naming names ) would manage to find a way to be miserable no matter what they were doing with their life.

Low blow...lol

Let us know at the end of second year.

 

[Morsetlis]

For the skill that can only be learned by doing, you learn it by doing it...

Pediatric surgery is hard.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Congrats on your acceptance. Yes I was but I have stopped caring about all this. We disagree so thats cool. I am glad you got where you want to go (no sarcasm).

Wait how do we disagree on all this. I actually agree with you!!!!! Did we go from disagreeing to agreeing?? I must have missed something. lol (((read my first post)))

 

[Mackey]

Those crappy clinics that do nothing except interview workers comp fakers about the symptoms they studied on WebMD are staffed by a lot of low-end usually family practice docs.

CRNA's do a bit higher level care than those guys and are compensated for it.

I don't see the issue with this.

From the looks of the anes forums, most people were rubbed the wrong way by the cheap shots the nurse was taking, such as the "same textbook" line. I have an issue with that as well. That was entirely uncalled for and was irrelevant to the topic at hand.

I still do not see the problem with a very high-end nurse getting paid more than a low-end doctor.

Note: I don't think all family practice doctors are the ones listed above. Very intelligent people go into that field. We are comparing average salaries, however, and average salaries are, after all, averages. There are always people bringing down those averages, and they're most likely not the shooting stars of their classes.

 

[Morsetlis]

Family Practice physicians can always take multiple hospitalist jobs. That'd be 12 hours a day everyday for an entire year. They'd make >$350k/yr easily.

It's mostly based on risks. The more risks you have to take, the more money you'd make.

I still don't understand dermatology and radiology making so much money though, but this line of thinking works out for surgery/anes vs. family practice ;p

 

[Neuro Surg]

1- you're not a medical student yet. change your status accordingly, please.
2- let me know once you are a medical student - maybe in April of your second year, once you have enough dept accumulated and you have the monster that is step 1 threatening your existence.
3- You WILL find plenty of money in medicine AND you should be concerned about it. My acceptance letter said nothing about VOLUNTEERING my services as a physician... nor do any contracts after residency. Money is NOT the end goal, but you don't want to feel robbed either.
4- Why would you advocate making less money? I have your type in my class, and it's just silly. One of my favorites was "my teacher friends are getting by just fine with 30K a year, what am I going to do with all the money I make as a FP."
5-end of rant

Bravo!


THE FOUR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL CLASSES

1) Most of your classmates will be liberal-socialist types hell-bent on saving the world through social justice, single payer petitions, and Marxist redistribution of wealth. This is one big reason why they got accepted to medical school in the first place.
2) Many of them will magically become great lovers of capitalism around residency application time, happily applying to high-paying specialties which actually compensate them for their time and effort, even if in some cases it means treating acne or implanting fake boobs rather than saving starving babies.
3) By the end of residency the majority of your former classmates will be fiscal conservatives who will loathe the government for the tax rape they are about to endure from them.
4) The few remaining liberal-socialist types will go into academic medicine and perpetuate the cycle within the academic environment.

 

[crprep23]

Holy shish-kabob! I didn't know a 200k bill could be covered with working 25 hours a week in the summers! Wow, someone should have told me! You must have gotten paid a pretty penny. Maybe you should keep that job cause it pays better than both CRNA and Physician.

Well now I have to defend myself... I still worked during the year (local fitness center) mowing was just the bulk of my work. I worked on average 15 weeks out of the year, like I said 25 hour weeks. I did 3 to 4 families/elderly couples a day (elderly couples with money pay pretty well) with larger plots of land and I used my dad's riding mower. These were larger, rural plots of land, so my price ranged from $40-60. At $700-800 per week, for 15 weeks I made a anywhere from 5600ish (my first year as I was trying to find clients) to roughly 10-11 thousand for the final 5 summers. After that, I was sick of it, and going to college. That was then invested each summer into a certificate of deposit, which is now growing and I will not touch until the day I have to pay off my loans (been growing for 8 years now). My state school costs around 25,000 a year (not 200k), and I don't know how much money is in that CD at the current moment but it will continue to grow, and I expect to come out of the entire thing with little or no debt. Why are so many people so quick to shoot things down? Damn.

 

[Morsetlis]

^ Respect.

 

[Mackey]

Holy shish-kabob! I didn't know a 200k bill could be covered with working 25 hours a week in the summers! Wow, someone should have told me! You must have gotten paid a pretty penny. Maybe you should keep that job cause it pays better than both CRNA and Physician.

Its called stripping. Sheesh. They're all paying their way through med or nursing school if you ask them.

 

[IMDoc607]

Bravo!


THE FOUR UNIVERSAL TRUTHS OF MEDICAL SCHOOL CLASSES

1) Most of your classmates will be liberal-socialist types hell-bent on saving the world through social justice, single payer petitions, and Marxist redistribution of wealth. This is one big reason why they got accepted to medical school in the first place.
2) Many of them will magically become great lovers of capitalism around residency application time, happily applying to high-paying specialties which actually compensate them for their time and effort, even if in some cases it means treating acne or implanting fake boobs rather than saving starving babies.
3) By the end of residency the majority of your former classmates will be fiscal conservatives who will loathe the government for the tax rape they are about to endure from them.
4) The few remaining liberal-socialist types will go into academic medicine and perpetuate the cycle within the academic environment.

Awesome post!

 

[IMDoc607]

Wait how do we disagree on all this. I actually agree with you!!!!! Did we go from disagreeing to agreeing?? I must have missed something. lol (((read my first post)))

Ughhh....sorry my head is spinning with all the bickering here.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Ughhh....sorry my head is spinning with all the bickering here.

HAHA No worries. I dont like the insincere sentiments passed around by my fellow pre-meds either.

 

[The right Path]

But give me a F*&ing break if you think nurses dont deserve to be paid for the hellish work they do. Go touch a rainbow somewhere else. No admissions officers in here. Just sayin. Dont be stup*d.

Had to fix your quote . Honestly, it goes both ways.

I just think it's silly when doctors complain about nurse's salaries in particular. Why not compare salaries with mechanics or contractors. And as for the kindly meant? warnings about going into medicine- Who does pursue medicine blind of the fact that it is long and expensive and that a person could make a faster quicker buck flipping houses?

When you say preventative care, you really should identify what you're talking about. It's not the same across the board. Well checks for healthy adults? Cancer screening? Cancer surveillance? Nutritional counseling?

Seriously, checkups and antihypertensives are a lot less expensive than a lengthy stay in the ICU with an intracranial hemorrhage and the long term care for a trached and PEG'd individual that once had a job and independence.

If someone is going to make the outrageous claim that preventative care is more expensive than damage control, please back that up.

 

[GoSpursGo]

Low blow...lol

Let us know at the end of second year.

Alright, I really hate getting dragged into these kinds of threads, so I'm not going to belabor my point beyond this post.

I'm just saying... let me know when you find the magical mythical job where you get paid lots for doing little, that you feel satisfied for making a difference at the end of the day, AND that you find intellectually stimulating. Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, and that no matter what profession you go into, there will be reasons to both enjoy it and reasons to wish you were doing something else. So you might as well accept that there is no "perfect" job out there and settle on something that you think will be somewhat more interesting, enjoyable, and profitable (in whatever order matters most to you personally) than your other options. If you get there and find that it isn't what you thought it was going to be, then you should either do something about it or learn to live with it.

I can agree with you that there are several reasons why one should not go into medicine, and there are many people out there for whom going to med school would be a bad decision. Some people would do well to consider what they're getting themselves into more carefully before jumping in. But to seriously imply that EVERYONE who goes into medicine winds up cynical and angry at the profession is a gross overstatement, and to say that EVERYONE going to med school will regret it just because you do is overtly arrogant. I don't have to finish my second year to know that, because I'm perfectly capable of talking to the 4th years, residents, and fellows at my own school and know that, contrary what some of the "experts" in this thread would like to imply, the majority of them are still quite happy with where they are and are going in life--including the student who scored well above the national average on her Step I but is still CHOOSING to go into family medicine, for example, and is extremely excited about starting next year (since we seem to love anecdotal evidence around here).

I firmly believe that people, to a great extent, make their own happiness and unhappiness, and it has to do with how you choose to look at your current situation. Sucks that you're so unhappy, but maybe you should try and do something about that yourself rather than preach to a bunch of people who you don't even know and tell them how their life is going to play out.

 

[Geekchick921]

Yea ok....

You can barf all you want. It's the specialty I'm most interested in, of course I'm looking forward to it.

 

[Mandiblespeaks]

Had to fix your quote . Honestly, it goes both ways.

I just think it's silly when doctors complain about nurse's salaries in particular. Why not compare salaries with mechanics or contractors. And as for the kindly meant? warnings about going into medicine- Who does pursue medicine blind of the fact that it is long and expensive and that a person could make a faster quicker buck flipping houses?



Seriously, checkups and antihypertensives are a lot less expensive than a lengthy stay in the ICU with an intracranial hemorrhage and the long term care for a trached and PEG'd individual that once had a job and independence.

If someone is going to make the outrageous claim that preventative care is more expensive than damage control, please back that up.

I agree with you on the preventitive care. But in reality, nurses, doctors, mechanics are NOT the same thing. I am sure the guy at Mcdonalds works hellish days as well. But if you can see the difference in putting in the effort to recieve a doctorate degree then you are kidding yourself. I am sorry its different. If it wasnt different then my arse really is the same thing as my elbow.

But its not is it. Nor is an RN the same as an MD the same as a mechanic. Its a choice. It took me a long time to get here. It wasnt about money. I dont care about what nurses make. I care about PCPs getting paid more to make this failing healthcar system work better. And I hate it when people so casually play off like they dont care what they will be making. Wait till we have kids, cars etc. I bet have the yoke heads in this forum spouting off all the overly typical sentiment will end up in plastics or derm. But hey, I dont see anything wrong with that.

 

[chman]

Alright, I really hate getting dragged into these kinds of threads, so I'm not going to belabor my point beyond this post.

I'm just saying... let me know when you find the magical mythical job where you get paid lots for doing little, that you feel satisfied for making a difference at the end of the day, AND that you find intellectually stimulating. Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, and that no matter what profession you go into, there will be reasons to both enjoy it and reasons to wish you were doing something else. So you might as well accept that there is no "perfect" job out there and settle on something that you think will be somewhat more interesting, enjoyable, and profitable (in whatever order matters most to you personally) than your other options. If you get there and find that it isn't what you thought it was going to be, then you should either do something about it or learn to live with it.

I can agree with you that there are several reasons why one should not go into medicine, and there are many people out there for whom going to med school would be a bad decision. Some people would do well to consider what they're getting themselves into more carefully before jumping in. But to seriously imply that EVERYONE who goes into medicine winds up cynical and angry at the profession is a gross overstatement, and to say that EVERYONE going to med school will regret it just because you do is overtly arrogant. I don't have to finish my second year to know that, because I'm perfectly capable of talking to the 4th years, residents, and fellows at my own school and know that, contrary what some of the "experts" in this thread would like to imply, the majority of them are still quite happy with where they are and are going in life--including the student who scored well above the national average on her Step I but is still CHOOSING to go into family medicine, for example, and is extremely excited about starting next year (since we seem to love anecdotal evidence around here).

I firmly believe that people, to a great extent, make their own happiness and unhappiness, and it has to do with how you choose to look at your current situation. Sucks that you're so unhappy, but maybe you should try and do something about that yourself rather than preach to a bunch of people who you don't even know and tell them how their life is going to play out.

This.


Of course there are a ton of people who want to go to medical school for the wrong reasons; parents, pure $, power, etc. Of course there are a bunch of people who have no idea what they are getting into at first. I would even wager that there are a good deal of both on this forum. However, I think most people have a fairly well educated guess of what it will be like by the time they apply, considering most do shadowing, volunteering, SDN, research, etc.

I think the reason that pre-meds get defensive of this is for a couple reasons. 1) The OP and medical students who are arguing against medicine most of the time are a) condescending, b) state their point without almost any articulation of why, c) regard their opinion as fact. Now, if you (OP or others) want to write an intelligent post about why medicine is not for you I would be glad to read it and take the points seriously. But, I doubt there will be much I haven't heard before from the doctors I've shadowed, the medical students I've talked to, or the other similar posts I have read on SDN and other internet sources.

Regarding the CRNA's, I personally don't think that is an unreasonable salary for someone who is doing risky work such as that. Let me remind you also, that it was anesthesiologists who came up with the idea for CRNA's in the first place...

 

[AbbyNormal]

Let me remind you also, that it was anesthesiologists who came up with the idea for CRNA's in the first place...

I was with you until this last sentence.

Nurse anesthetists have been providing anesthesia care in the United States for nearly 150 years, and therefore the oldest nurse specialty group in the United States. The first nurse to provide anesthesia was Catherine S. Lawrence, and along with other nurses, administered anesthesia for surgeons during the Civil War.


Prior to World War II, the delivery of anesthesia was mainly a nursing function. In 1942, there were seventeen nurse anesthetists for every one anesthesiologist. The numbers of physicians in this specialty did not greatly expand until the late 1960s.

source = Wikipedia
hey it says so on the internet so it HAS to be right

 

[chman]

I was with you until this last sentence.

Nurse anesthetists have been providing anesthesia care in the United States for nearly 150 years, and therefore the oldest nurse specialty group in the United States. The first nurse to provide anesthesia was Catherine S. Lawrence, and along with other nurses, administered anesthesia for surgeons during the Civil War.


Prior to World War II, the delivery of anesthesia was mainly a nursing function. In 1942, there were seventeen nurse anesthetists for every one anesthesiologist. The numbers of physicians in this specialty did not greatly expand until the late 1960s.

source = Wikipedia
hey it says so on the internet so it HAS to be right

Perhaps I misunderstood what I read, but my point was more that MD's were the ones who pushed for more CRNA's because there was a shortage of medical professionals to deliver anesthesia...I believe in the 70's. I could be wrong though. Let me also point out that there is a difference between the delivery of anesthesia and having an actual title; CRNA.

 

[deleted307836]

Perhaps I misunderstood what I read, but my point was more that MD's were the ones who pushed for more CRNA's because there was a shortage of medical professionals to deliver anesthesia...I believe in the 70's. I could be wrong though. Let me also point out that there is a difference between the delivery of anesthesia and having an actual title; CRNA.

chman you may be thinking of anesthesiologist assistants (AA's).... anesthesiologists lobbied for the creation of this professional group I think to counter CRNA competition.

 

[morning]

I was with you until this last sentence.

Nurse anesthetists have been providing anesthesia care in the United States for nearly 150 years, and therefore the oldest nurse specialty group in the United States. The first nurse to provide anesthesia was Catherine S. Lawrence, and along with other nurses, administered anesthesia for surgeons during the Civil War.


Prior to World War II, the delivery of anesthesia was mainly a nursing function. In 1942, there were seventeen nurse anesthetists for every one anesthesiologist. The numbers of physicians in this specialty did not greatly expand until the late 1960s.

source = Wikipedia
hey it says so on the internet so it HAS to be right

It really bothers me when people say this; first of all, dentists were the first ones to use anesthesia with any regularly, secondly, just because nurses USED to do it doesn't mean they do it best NOW, over a century of medical and technological discoveries/innovation later. If nurses used to perform most amputations during the Civil War, it wouldn't give them right to perform amputations now.

 

[chman]

It really bothers me when people say this; first of all, dentists were the first ones to use anesthesia with any regularly, secondly, just because nurses USED to do it doesn't mean they do it best NOW, over a century of medical and technological discoveries/innovation later. If nurses used to perform most amputations during the Civil War, it wouldn't give them right to perform amputations now.

I don't think anyone was saying they do it best.

 

[chman]

.

 

[AbbyNormal]

If nurses used to perform most amputations during the Civil War, it wouldn't give them right to perform amputations now.

Nurses did amputations????

I believe the nurses were giving the patients anesthesia while doctors did the surgery.

 

[Cleavername]

Good response....I like it.

On the contrary, I got many positive responses on my personal statement!!

This is what 4 years of medical school does.

Ok, enough with the bickering. Seriously, your perspective on medicine changes when you are in med school. I used to be the same way. All you wanted was to get in and I understand that. Go ahead and criticize NILF and me. That is fine, but remember this thread when you are in your 3rd year on your OB rotation and looking at 200K of debt.

i already thought of that lol. its why i am going to extend my college to a fifth year where i will be majoring in either economics or business. its best to just wait and see where obama-care will go and how it effects doctors.

food for thought, what if your salary was reduced but instead you have less hours to work or your work is much less streessful than it is now, would you still go in it? i know its unlikely both of those positive conditions may occur, i am just saying .

 

[Morsetlis]

Nurses did amputations????

I believe the nurses were giving the patients anesthesia while doctors did the surgery.

Back in England the original surgeons were barbers.

 

[StormingWynn]

Well now I have to defend myself... I still worked during the year (local fitness center) mowing was just the bulk of my work. I worked on average 15 weeks out of the year, like I said 25 hour weeks. I did 3 to 4 families/elderly couples a day (elderly couples with money pay pretty well) with larger plots of land and I used my dad's riding mower. These were larger, rural plots of land, so my price ranged from $40-60. At $700-800 per week, for 15 weeks I made a anywhere from 5600ish (my first year as I was trying to find clients) to roughly 10-11 thousand for the final 5 summers. After that, I was sick of it, and going to college. That was then invested each summer into a certificate of deposit, which is now growing and I will not touch until the day I have to pay off my loans (been growing for 8 years now). My state school costs around 25,000 a year (not 200k), and I don't know how much money is in that CD at the current moment but it will continue to grow, and I expect to come out of the entire thing with little or no debt. Why are so many people so quick to shoot things down? Damn.

Unless you're getting huge interest on that money, I don't see it going anywhere (6 summers x 10.5k/year = 63k + interest = IDK, you tell me). Also, unless you plan on mooching off your parents for food, rent, etc, I'd add to that 25k price tag of med school, perhaps double it, thus 4 years equals 200k. But respect for getting that much money saved up. I wish I had that moolah.

 

[TheFlashMD]

The CBO says that preventive medicine will add to the costs of healthcare.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/08/07/AR2009080703822.html

 

[Stark]

Money does matter, but you have to love what you do. You can't predict where the money will be in 5 or 10 years from now.

I asked a radiation oncologist who makes a million dollars a year how she chose that specialty. She said 20 years ago it was the only thing that an IMG could get into. She didn't know, nobody knew that it was destined to be a million dollar a year decision. So pick what you like doing so you don't hate your life (regardless of the money).

CRNA's are paid a lot because their profession is procedure oriented. Medicine currently pays more for surgery than decision making. Although CRNA's don't perform surgery. They (or an anesthesiologist) have to be there or surgery doesn't happen. In general, surgery can happen in the absence of a family practicioner.

But if FP is what you love. Do it. You won't starve (unless the whole thing is socialized - then we're all in trouble).

 

[IMDoc607]

Alright, I really hate getting dragged into these kinds of threads, so I'm not going to belabor my point beyond this post.

I'm just saying... let me know when you find the magical mythical job where you get paid lots for doing little, that you feel satisfied for making a difference at the end of the day, AND that you find intellectually stimulating. Because I'm pretty sure it doesn't exist, and that no matter what profession you go into, there will be reasons to both enjoy it and reasons to wish you were doing something else. So you might as well accept that there is no "perfect" job out there and settle on something that you think will be somewhat more interesting, enjoyable, and profitable (in whatever order matters most to you personally) than your other options. If you get there and find that it isn't what you thought it was going to be, then you should either do something about it or learn to live with it.

I can agree with you that there are several reasons why one should not go into medicine, and there are many people out there for whom going to med school would be a bad decision. Some people would do well to consider what they're getting themselves into more carefully before jumping in. But to seriously imply that EVERYONE who goes into medicine winds up cynical and angry at the profession is a gross overstatement, and to say that EVERYONE going to med school will regret it just because you do is overtly arrogant. I don't have to finish my second year to know that, because I'm perfectly capable of talking to the 4th years, residents, and fellows at my own school and know that, contrary what some of the "experts" in this thread would like to imply, the majority of them are still quite happy with where they are and are going in life--including the student who scored well above the national average on her Step I but is still CHOOSING to go into family medicine, for example, and is extremely excited about starting next year (since we seem to love anecdotal evidence around here).

I firmly believe that people, to a great extent, make their own happiness and unhappiness, and it has to do with how you choose to look at your current situation. Sucks that you're so unhappy, but maybe you should try and do something about that yourself rather than preach to a bunch of people who you don't even know and tell them how their life is going to play out.

You are correct. Not everyone is cynical and angry at the profession, but from my 4 years of experience I have heard it time and again. After hearing so much bitterness, it starts to rub off on you. Next comes in Obama....I am going on my own experience with attendings, residents, and medical students. The majority are not happy. Listen....we disagree and thats cool.

Alright guys....good luck with everything, but with all due respect I do not want to argue with people who have not been in my shoes yet.

Thank god I like medicine or I would of quit a long time ago.

 

[AegriSomnia]

Well at least CRNA schooling is not online. Intubate using your mouse, please. But I understand where you're coming from, definitely.

The CRNA programs aren't, but the DNP that comes after very often is earned online. Plus, they still don't have a residency.

 

[Cleavername]

You are correct. Not everyone is cynical and angry at the profession, but from my 4 years of experience I have heard it time and again. After hearing so much bitterness, it starts to rub off on you. Next comes in Obama....I am going on my own experience with attendings, residents, and medical students. The majority are not happy. Listen....we disagree and thats cool.

Alright guys....good luck with everything, but with all due respect I do not want to argue with people who have not been in my shoes yet.

Thank god I like medicine or I would of quit a long time ago.

If god made you enjoy a profession that does not pay you enough and yet it demands so much, should you really thank him/her/it/alien of some sort.

just a thought .

 

[avatarftw]

...

 

[mediterranean]

Its the same reason Atul Gawande refused a chief resident over the attending for his childs surgery. Talk about a smart guy who most likely fell under the spell of emotion.

I love that book! Human instinct as its best.

 

[g squared 23]

I know I'm a bit out of my element here and probably am going to get chewed up but...

It might be that Family Practitioners aren't making a ton of money because there are several cheaper versions (albeit downgraded) out there such as NPs and PAs. Yes indeed they can't function independently (they will be pushing for that next), but a medical center can function about as effectively with 10 FP's as one with 5 FP's and 5 PAs but the latter one will have much less overhead, and that extra money that is saved will probably go where? Charity? Diabetes Research? Added to the salary of current FPs? Ha. PROBABLY to the administrators of that facility (notice I am merely speculating, but those people normally have business degrees and they do know economics and how to make money). Therefore, they can keep their overhead low by keeping the number of FPs at a minimum and fill in the rest with the cheaper PA option. IMO, this does put FPs in at least an indirect competition with PAs for jobs and salaries. NO, the PA can't demand the same salary or claim to do the same job, but the administrator can be more selective and pick the FP who is willing to work for the average or less instead of the $200k+ that they are really worth. Long story short, FPs' salaries are being driven down by the fact that someone else can do PART (notice I only said PART, meaning the ordinary, routine uncomplicated part) for 1/3 or 1/2 the money.

A CRNA is basically the same concept: just a cheaper, downgraded version of an anesthesiologist that is perfectly capable in uncomplicated arenas (yes i know, stating the obvious). Their training gets right down to it, and they learn in their 2 years in CRNA school exactly what they are going to be doing professionally and are spared the "wasted burden" (sarcasm) of completely learning medicine that the med student turned anesthesiologist has to bear before starting their specific professional training. Again, what is Mr. CEO going to think when doing the hiring? Well he's going to look at the cheaper CRNA option and "lick his chops" and make sure he is adequately staffed w/ nurses who can do the (simple,uncomplicated) jobs of doctors for 1/2 the price.

Any thoughts? Did I just state the obvious or am I understanding something wrong?