Nursing board signs off on 'anesthesiologist' title

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I expect to end my career the same way I started it: doing my own cases working for fairly low pay. What I didn't expect was to be earning just slightly more than my CRNA colleagues who have a fraction of my formal education and training.

While politics should not be the defining factor for quality in medicine I realize that politics trumps truth most of the time.
The ANNA knows this fact and fights dirty in order to win. The AANA believes sacrifices (like Medicare rates for all) must be made in order to secure victory.

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In 2019, the national representative body of nurse anesthetists, the American Association of Nurse Anesthetists, in addition to already recognized titles, recognized the new title “Certified Registered Nurse Anesthesiologist”
This site was created to inform all interested parties on the matter.


 
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The AANA led by a small group of militant CRNAs are using the ignorance of the public to blur the lines even more. First, it was Doctor of Nurse Anesthesia and now it is Doctor of Nurse Anesthesiologist. This will confuse Joe Q. Public even more when it comes to anesthesia providers. I'm not sure how much Joe Q. Public cares about this subject but never underestimate a campaign by an organization to confuse people into thinking the second tier product is equal to the first tier. By using social media and a blurring of the lines tactic the AANA is engaged in an all out campaign to achieve "equivalency" through politics and misinformation. While this deception is subtle and perhaps, even legal, the implications are far-reaching in terms of Anesthesiology. The short-cut route to the practice of Anesthesiology is not in the best interest of patients or society. But, in this age of "good enough" politicians may find it easier and cheaper just to embrace the Noctors in a future Medicare for all based society.

To those of you in Residency the AANA agrees you should have the right to practice alongside your Doctor of Nurse Anesthesiology colleague. Maybe, you should e mail them to express gratitude in allowing you to work alongside the safest group of providers in the USA?
 
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CRNA's use some false arguments to support their position. One example is that CRNA's pay low malpractice premiums in comparison to physicians.

This is copied from AANA's own propoganda: https://www.aana.com/docs/default-s...s-(all)/crna-fact-sheet.pdf?sfvrsn=c5f641b1_8

"Malpractice Premiums: On a nationwide basis, the average 2016 malpractice liability insurance premium for self-employed CRNAs was 33 percent less than it was in 1988. When trended for inflation through 2016, the reduction in premiums was even greater at 67 percent."


Sounds convincing, especially to someone unfamiliar with how medical liability works. But consider the following book excerpt. This quote is old, from a book published in 1993, but even though it is dated, it sums the situation up nicely.

"The Problems of Certified Registered Nurse Anesthetists

More than any other specialty, anesthesiology in the United States has blurred the distinction between physicians and nurse-practitioners. This confusion of roles has its roots in the late differentiation of anesthesiology as a specialty. There was a considerable period during which anesthesia delivery consisted of a paper cone and a container of ether, both held by a nurse. This created a perception that anesthesia was a nursing task. With the certification of registered nurse anesthetists (CRNAs), surgeons explicitly accepted that anesthesia could be practiced by a nurse, albeit under the supervision of a surgeon. This pattern of allowing nurses to practice a medical specialty did not pose a problem until anesthesia practice began to become much more sophisticated and technologically oriented.

Board certification in anesthesia now requires a medical degree, training in a formal residency, and passing a certification examination. This creates an enormous gulf between the knowledge base of CRNAs and physician anesthesiologists. It also creates a knowledge gap between board-certified anesthesiologists and physicians who practice anesthesia without formal training. Such physicians include family practitioners who provide anesthesia in rural hospitals, noncertified physicians who hold themselves out as anesthesiologists, and most surgeons who supervise CRNAs.

A major controversy between surgeons and anesthesiologists is the proper role of CRNAs. Few, if any, states allow the independent practice of anesthesia by nurses. The legal expectation is that the CRNA will be supervised by a properly qualified anesthesiologist. If the CRNA is not under the supervision of an anesthesiologist or if this supervision is too attenuated, the law will assign the surgeon legal responsibility for the CRNAs' actions. (See Chapter 15.)

Medical malpractice insurance rates for CRNAs are artificially low because the nurses do not bear primary responsibility for any negligent actions. When a CRNA injures a patient, the legal liability for that injury flows directly to the supervising physician--either the surgeon or the anesthesiologist. In some cases, the nurse is not even sued. In cases where the CRNA is not supervised by an anesthesiologist, the plaintiff's attorney focuses on the surgeon rather than the CRNA. The surgeon is a much less sympathetic target in front of a jury. As the licensed physician in charge, the surgeon is expected to know all aspects of anesthesiology practice. Plaintiffs' attorneys are able to make supervising surgeons appear negligent by forcing them to admit that they relied on the nurse's knowledge of anesthesia. This is ethically questionable and violates the medical practice act in most states because it is impossible to supervise care that one does not understand."


This is just one example of the ongoing campaign to minimize the value of a board-certified anesthesiologist. I know a lot of medical students read these message boards and you need to know that these battles have been going on for decades and are unlikely to stop. If you are still undeterred, then I wish you the best of luck. This is an awesome specialty, despite these challenges. Midlevel creep also impacts other specialties, but not in the same way.
 
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A lot more rocky now. More visible yes. But also more rocky with the DNAP, PHD nursing midlievel movement. Definitely making our lives infinitely more difficult. Blame it on social media all you want, but it is seriously going to become more and more problematic as we move forward.

Exactly, it’s bad with us but it’s been a slow burn. It’s positively scorching for primary care, EM and others where they face the same and largely unchecked doctors of nursing coming out. Plus you have PAs wanting to be referred as “physician associates” wanting the same independence. And there’s a rise of PAs getting BS doctorate degrees (can’t even make this crap up). Medicine as a whole has been asleep as the wheel here - the AMA is too busy being political with the ACA and insurance woes to deal with it. Sigh.
 
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This will NEVER get fixed until: 1. fewer kids will go into medicine and 2. many of them will leave the country and practice abroad (the way Canadians do today).

Until then, this profession will keep going to hell, with anesthesiology leading the way.
 
Crnas still have very little market penetration out west. (Md only in many areas). Even large amc like Sheridan who starts new hospital even in act heavy models in the south primarily uses MD only practice. (For new hospitals).

Cause they know the truth. Crna are not cheap. What’s the point of hiring crna when case load is low. Will have the md only practice.
 
This whole ordeal is worrisome for me as a med student looking toward anesthesia for my future career. My other interest is EM. From the sound of it on SDN, both are bad choices.
 
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This whole ordeal is worrisome for me as a med student looking toward anesthesia for my future career. My other interest is EM. From the sound of it on SDN, both are bad choices.


Your options may be limited. Regardless, the issues/problems surrounding each specialty should be thoroughly examined and reviewed prior to entering residency. This information is meant to inform more than scare away prospective residents.
As long as you understand the militant, CRNA "Nurse Anesthesiologist" problem along with Medicare paying a CRNA wage to Anesthesiologists then you can't claim ignorance post residency.

If the specialty is to survive then it must do so under sunlight. Single payer will eventually come to the USA. All of medicine will undergo significant change.
 
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Your options may be limited. Regardless, the issues/problems surrounding each specialty should be thoroughly examined and reviewed prior to entering residency. This information is meant to inform more than scare away prospective residents.
As long as you understand the militant, CRNA "Nurse Anesthesiologist" problem along with Medicare paying a CRNA wage to Anesthesiologists then you can't claim ignorance post residency.

If the specialty is to survive then it must do so under sunlight. Single payer will eventually come to the USA. All of medicine will undergo significant change.

Man, I just want to help some people doing something I enjoy and not become a martyr to the profession. If anesthesia has long-term longevity then it will still be top of my list. If I choose to pursue it, I’ll put forth whatever I can to help the specialty survive. Either way, seems like the west is mostly holding out for now, and that’s where I intend to be long-term.

And if none of that works out I’ll go family med and work those 4 and 1/2 day weeks.
 
Man, I just want to help some people doing something I enjoy and not become a martyr to the profession. If anesthesia has long-term longevity then it will still be top of my list. If I choose to pursue it, I’ll put forth whatever I can to help the specialty survive. Either way, seems like the west is mostly holding out for now, and that’s where I intend to be long-term.

And if none of that works out I’ll go family med and work those 4 and 1/2 day weeks.


Below is a quote from a CRNA taken from a Nursing forum 1 week ago:


"I am a CRNA. I’ve worked in a care team model and now work independently. I’m not sure what question you are asking but I work independently in WA as a licensed independent provider of anesthesia. I am not supervised by an anesthesiologist (there are none in my practice) nor am I supervised by a physician. I carry my own malpractice, perform my own pre-ops, anesthetics, ultrasound-guided regional, have a DEA license and manage my pt in PACU through discharge. And no, my patients are not all ASA 1 and 2’s. They are sometimes obese, diabetic, CAD, HTN, and with diffficult airways. Last I checked, an AA can ONLY work in a care team. So, the issue is CRNAs are safe, cost-effective and improve access to care. I am not a physician nor do I pretend to be one. But, I do bring value to the table that an AA can not. Period. I have nothing against AAs or Physician anesthesiologists. We all have value and a role. Promoting my own profession does not diminish others’. "
 
Below is a quote from a CRNA taken from a Nursing forum 1 week ago:


"I am a CRNA. I’ve worked in a care team model and now work independently. I’m not sure what question you are asking but I work independently in WA as a licensed independent provider of anesthesia. I am not supervised by an anesthesiologist (there are none in my practice) nor am I supervised by a physician. I carry my own malpractice, perform my own pre-ops, anesthetics, ultrasound-guided regional, have a DEA license and manage my pt in PACU through discharge. And no, my patients are not all ASA 1 and 2’s. They are sometimes obese, diabetic, CAD, HTN, and with diffficult airways. Last I checked, an AA can ONLY work in a care team. So, the issue is CRNAs are safe, cost-effective and improve access to care. I am not a physician nor do I pretend to be one. But, I do bring value to the table that an AA can not. Period. I have nothing against AAs or Physician anesthesiologists. We all have value and a role. Promoting my own profession does not diminish others’. "

Jesus. Well, everything I've seen on gasworks for anesthesiologists shows 90% or 100% doing own cases. I didn't realize they could practice independently in WA. What are your thoughts on the way forward for the profession to flourish again?
 
Jesus. Well, everything I've seen on gasworks for anesthesiologists shows 90% or 100% doing own cases. I didn't realize they could practice independently in WA. What are your thoughts on the way forward for the profession to flourish again?


The profession is doing quite well. The training is excellent and the fellowships have added a lot to credibility for new grads in specific areas. The AANA propaganda is just that: rhetoric. The emperor has no clothes. New CRNAs have never been dumber and lazier than today. They want the lifestyle and independence without the knowledge or experience to deserve it.

The ASA needs to take the gloves off. The idea that one can fight in the mud with the AANA and not get dirty is preposterous. The younger generation needs to take charge of the leadership and the future of the profession.

The biggest issue is the AMC with a close second being the AANA. Sadly, I don't see much effort on either front.
 
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Below is a quote from a CRNA taken from a Nursing forum 1 week ago:


"I am a CRNA. I’ve worked in a care team model and now work independently. I’m not sure what question you are asking but I work independently in WA as a licensed independent provider of anesthesia. I am not supervised by an anesthesiologist (there are none in my practice) nor am I supervised by a physician. I carry my own malpractice, perform my own pre-ops, anesthetics, ultrasound-guided regional, have a DEA license and manage my pt in PACU through discharge. And no, my patients are not all ASA 1 and 2’s. They are sometimes obese, diabetic, CAD, HTN, and with diffficult airways. Last I checked, an AA can ONLY work in a care team. So, the issue is CRNAs are safe, cost-effective and improve access to care. I am not a physician nor do I pretend to be one. But, I do bring value to the table that an AA can not. Period. I have nothing against AAs or Physician anesthesiologists. We all have value and a role. Promoting my own profession does not diminish others’. "

So they work in a critical access hospital perhaps? Yeah those places with an eye toward quality. I’m sure that this CRNA spends the first 15 mins of their day mentally validating their own existence in a healthcare system that basically views them as cheap cogs that take orders and follow protocols.

Probably has zero problem calling themselves a doctor in front of patients without actually clarifying who the hell are.

I’m sure their “independent” practice looks more like a train-wreck then a well oiled machine.

So proud of those ASA 4-5s that probably should have never been in the OR in the first place but with the steadfast determination of an ***** they just plow right ahead. I’m sure that’s cost effective.

What a pathetic bunch. Howcan you value others contribution to the team when you are basically saying that you function in the same way an MD can? And better than an AA.

If you want to rid yourselves of these idiots, automate the process a bit. More and more practices supervise anyway. Why would I want to oversee a 2,3,4 human CRNAs who jerk it to independent practice all day and think they are the answer to everything wrong in healthcare when I could conceivably supervise a machine.
 
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New ASA solgan:

"I'm a physician and I went to med school."

Boom. Two things nurses cant say medicolegally
 
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This whole ordeal is worrisome for me as a med student looking toward anesthesia for my future career. My other interest is EM. From the sound of it on SDN, both are bad choices.
EM is not that bad if you like EM... NP in the ED are not so vocal. You work 10-12 shift/month and make 300k+/yr; nothing beats that.
 
A lot more rocky now. More visible yes. But also more rocky with the DNAP, PHD nursing midlievel movement. Definitely making our lives infinitely more difficult. Blame it on social media all you want, but it is seriously going to become more and more problematic as we move forward.

all I'm saying is that actual stance has been around for decades. It has always been "infinitely more difficult" now than it was. The end is always near.
 
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In the story of “the Boy who cried Wolf”... The wolf eventually did show up.
 
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all I'm saying is that actual stance has been around for decades. It has always been "infinitely more difficult" now than it was. The end is always near.

It isn’t any one thing which will create the “end” as you so call it. It will be a combination of factors like Medicare for all combined with more autonomy by Nurse Anesthesiologists.
 
It isn’t any one thing which will create the “end” as you so call it. It will be a combination of factors like Medicare for all combined with more autonomy by Nurse Anesthesiologists.

I'm well aware of what something like Medicare for all would me for our specialty (as well as medicine on the whole), just pointing out the CRNA stuff has been being said for decades. Some people think it's new.
 
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"CRNAs who have spouses who are MDAs which are politically against CRNAs are not welcomed. If found out you will be removed. We regularly google the names of random members to determine if this is the case."
Just check out the moderators on this Facebook group - that should tell you everything you need to know. ;)
 
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7000 members, that’s a lot of nurse “anesthesiologists”
You got the idea. If not, look at their logo.

Trying to have a civilized discussion with them is like reasoning with a bully.
 
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Brought to you by "identity politics". I say I am, so I am. Challenge the narrative and you'll be marginalized. Truth is what I say it is. Any objections, no matter how reasonable, will be met with hostility and common bully tactics. It isn't just medicine...coherent objectivity is the casualty of our age.
 
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In 10 more years:

"There are two types of Anesthesiologists: Nurse Anesthesiologists and Physician Anesthesiologists. Nurse Anesthesiologists were the original anesthesia providers but today Physician Anesthesiologists are equally recognized. Both types of Anesthesiologists passed similarly rigorous education and training requirements and are expertly qualified to provide independent care. Which type of anesthesiologist is right for you?"

Should have stopped it before "Nurse Anesthetist". Nobody calls an ICU Nurse a "Nurse Intensivist".
 
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In 10 more years:

"There are two types of Anesthesiologists: Nurse Anesthesiologists and Physician Anesthesiologists. Nurse Anesthesiologists were the original anesthesia providers but today Physician Anesthesiologists are equally recognized. Both types of Anesthesiologists passed similarly rigorous education and training requirements and are expertly qualified to provide independent care. Which type of anesthesiologist is right for you?"

Should have stopped it before "Nurse Anesthetist". Nobody calls an ICU Nurse a "Nurse Intensivist ".
Nobody calls an ICU Nurse a "Nurse Intensivist YET ".

I fixed it..
 
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This is Inevitable when you have a bunch of old crummy docs driving porsche's, living in multi-million dollar homes while not putting in any effort at work, and allowing CRNAs to run the asylum. The only hope is the younger generation of motivated docs who despise the AANA and their rhetoric enough to make a difference. Ignore SRNAs who come to train at your institutions, refer to your CRNAs as anesthesia nurses, put in a little more effort to make yourselves seen to the patients and surgeons. Show some pride in your profession and bring value to the hospital and your group... rant over. No offense to the great older generation of docs this isnt meant for yall.
 
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This is Inevitable when you have a bunch of old crummy docs driving porsche's, living in multi-million dollar homes while not putting in any effort at work, and allowing CRNAs to run the asylum. The only hope is the younger generation of motivated docs who despise the AANA and their rhetoric enough to make a difference. Ignore SRNAs who come to train at your institutions, refer to your CRNAs as anesthesia nurses, put in a little more effort to make yourselves seen to the patients and surgeons. Show some pride in your profession and bring value to the hospital and your group... rant over. No offense to the great older generation of docs this isnt meant for yall.
If I go into this field it's because I know I will have to fight to keep the profession alive and well. And that's ok. First you have to prove that the education matters and train and be the best doctor you can be.
 
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Unfortunately 90% of your education does not matter for anesthesia. Did you really have to do gross anatomy, immunology, do an intern year, etc to deliver anesthesia? All that stuff makes you smarter and proves you can work harder than any nurse on the planet. It doesn't necessarily make you better at your job now.
Anesthesiologists are specialists second but doctors first. Delivering anesthesia is only part of the job as I believe a good anesthesiologist has to also think like a physician. But hey since you are the MD how about you tell me why it was all a waste of time (even though from my naive perspective I don't think so).
 
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Unfortunately 90% of your education does not matter for anesthesia. Did you really have to do gross anatomy, immunology, do an intern year, etc to deliver anesthesia? All that stuff makes you smarter and proves you can work harder than any nurse on the planet. It doesn't necessarily make you better at your job now.

I'm sorry but this is a huge exaggeration and incorrect. I don't want someone seeing this and thinking it's true, especially an anesthesia nurse. Medical school and intern year are critical in preparing you to practice anesthesiology.

You know what's a waste of time? The ICU years the anesthesia nurses require, thinking it makes a difference. Great, these nurses know how to follow directions without knowing any of the underlying reasoning or pathology.

Also, medical school introduces you to different specialties so you can decide what you want to do, its a vital part of picking your specialty. That is where all the different classes come in along with your rotations.
 
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I'm sorry but this is a huge exaggeration and incorrect. I don't want someone seeing this and thinking it's true, especially an anesthesia nurse. Medical school and intern year are critical in preparing you to practice anesthesiology.

You know what's a waste of time? The ICU years the anesthesia nurses require, thinking it makes a difference. Great, these nurses know how to follow directions without knowing any of the underlying reasoning or pathology.

Also, medical school introduces you to different specialties so you can decide what you want to do, its a vital part of picking your specialty. That is where all the different classes come in along with your rotations.
First of all, that last post by gopelicans is by a MURSE I am sure. So ignore it.
Nobody who knows ANYTHING would ever say something that anatomy and immunology is a waste of time. CMON.
I had a lady just yesterday who told me she was IGA deficient.
What arethe implications?
These are things you cant be learning for the first time
 
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Unfortunately 90% of your education does not matter for anesthesia. Did you really have to do gross anatomy, immunology, do an intern year, etc to deliver anesthesia? All that stuff makes you smarter and proves you can work harder than any nurse on the planet. It doesn't necessarily make you better at your job now.
Icu nurse ^^^^^^^
 
Actually it does. The question is, “Is the cost/benefit ratio worth it?”
 
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Remember the parable about the blind men and the elephant?

I chose anesthesiology because It made use of almost every bit of my medical school education. Medical school and internship, allowed me to see the elephant in its entirety.
 
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I'm a PGY2

You need a better perspective then.

To say 90% of your education doesn't matter is sorely misguided at best.

I'm with mmag in that all of my education is relevant as an anesthesiologist. This fact is one of the blessings of our field. Our knowledge is broad yet also specific, and it all matters.
 
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I’ve forgotten most of the histology and immunology (e.g. complement cascade) I learned in medical school because it is irrelevant to my current practice. I’d flunk USMLE1 for sure.
 
I’ve forgotten most of the histology and immunology (e.g. complement cascade) I learned in medical school because it is irrelevant to my current practice. I’d flunk USMLE1 for sure.
I don't think the point of medical school was to retain everything you learned or for it to be immediately relevant to your specialty. The point is (I hope) to put you in an environment where you have to learn sh** tons of information and apply that to clinical scenarios in a somewhat acceptable way. There's plenty of physiology that plastic surgeons probably don't use but that doesn't mean we should get rid of it from the medical school curriculum. Specialization doesn't mean you should lose sight of the fact that you are a physician (in my humble, medical student opinion).
 
Ya but imagine being a physician working with nurses who are being trained to do 90% of your job with 10% of your education and 200% of your ego

No.

They are not being trained to do 90% of your job.

They can't do your job on a percentage basis.

You are the anesthesiologist. Sack up.
 
I’ve forgotten most of the histology and immunology (e.g. complement cascade) I learned in medical school because it is irrelevant to my current practice. I’d flunk USMLE1 for sure.


Three weeks into practice I got paged to the ICU to help the intensivist with an airway: pt had hereditary angioedema. I might not have remembered the whole complement cascade but I knew the existence of the complement cascade and its role in her condition. After tube through cords, was able to chat with the intensivist about the disease.
 
The whole point of Medical School and Residency (including PGY-1) is to train you to be a Physician level consultant. This allows you to function as a perioperative physician (like it or not) for the entire perioperative period. If you are trained well
then you asses risk, order appropriate tests, discuss perioperative complications, deal with intraoperative emergencies as well as give an anesthetic.

The CRNA has little training in other areas besides the "give an anesthetic" as he/she is not a physician. These midlevels learn on the job and typically after 5 years absorb enough information from us to be able to understand the specialty enough to do some of what we are trained to do from day 1 post residency. They are being paid as CRNAs to basically learn from you enough about the specialty to function on their own. This goes for AAs as well.
 
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I’ve forgotten most of the histology and immunology (e.g. complement cascade) I learned in medical school because it is irrelevant to my current practice. I’d flunk USMLE1 for sure.
ive forgotten sixth grade language arts. Does that make it irrelevant?
 
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Man, some of you sound like a bunch of dullards. The "medical school is irrelevant to the practice of anesthesiology" spiel is something I'd only expect from nurses. Sure, maybe you don't remember all the finer points of immunology, but did you ever think that maybe having that background knowledge would allow you to bring yourself up to speed faster, or possibly have some (greater than superficial) context when, say, trying to read a journal article about increased malignancy recurrence after oncologic surgery being possibly due to opioid suppression of natural killer cells?

Also, how dumb do you have to be to think gross anatomy is irrelevant....considering anesthesiologists/intensivists/pain physicians are among the top specialties as far as sticking various needles in a whole bunch of different body parts...
 
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Man, some of you sound like a bunch of dullards. The "medical school is irrelevant to the practice of anesthesiology" spiel is something I'd only expect from nurses. Sure, maybe you don't remember all the finer points of immunology, but did you ever think that maybe having that background knowledge would allow you to bring yourself up to speed faster, or possibly have some (greater than superficial) context when, say, trying to read a journal article about increased malignancy recurrence after oncologic surgery being possibly due to opioid suppression of natural killer cells?

Also, how dumb do you have to be to think gross anatomy is irrelevant....considering anesthesiologists/intensivists/pain physicians are among the top specialties as far as sticking various needles in a whole bunch of different body parts...


Huh? Does that mean I get to do more blocks?;)
 
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