Obama=socialism

[2win]

I am so pissed off - Obama and his suporters will increase our taxes, will decrease our revenue....What can we do about??? I left a former socialist country for the freedom of USA - the greatest country in the world and now I have to face again the same demagogy like - "we are equal" and so on. We are equal in the front of God but here, on this planet we're not! I cannot stop to notice the satisfaction of some hospital personnel when they hear us (the md-s) expressing the concern with the "new era". They feel "equal" and ready to enjoy our tax increase. Really sad! And all this empty talk about Norway and other countries is just "opium for the masses". I could go on and on about this subject...I will cut my work hours to stay bellow 250k. The same will do the surgeons. The hospital will have decreased revenue. We'll try to avoid Medicare (like they "paid"well before...) but know they'll cut the payments again. A shame!

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[frank51]

It seems that the country is headed toward socialism, many contribute this to capitalism growing too fast without proper regulations. There are even economists who have stated that because of the current economic situation the status of the US has changed forever. Unfortunately, this will translate to a lower standard of living for many, including physicians, and the I'm not sure if there is anything anybody can do about it.

 

[RxBoy]

I am so pissed off - Obama and his suporters will increase our taxes, will decrease our revenue....What can we do about??? I have to visit the weapon forum again. I left a former socialist country for the freedom of USA - the greatest country in the world and now I have to face again the same demagogy like - "we are equal" and so on. We are equal in the front of God but here, on this planet we're not! I cannot stop to notice the satisfaction of some hospital personnel when they hear us (the md-s) expressing the concern with the "new era". They feel "equal" and ready to enjoy our tax increase. Really sad! And all this empty talk about Norway and other countries is just "opium for the masses". I could go on and on about this subject...I will cut my work hours to stay bellow 250k. The same will do the surgeons. The hospital will have decreased revenue. We'll try to avoid Medicare (like they "paid"well before...) but know they'll cut the payments again. A shame!

I agree with you buddy... especially when education is payed for in most of those socialist countries. It sucks. The sad thing is I was poking around the other SDN medical forums and no one else is discussing this. A lot of future docs are oblivious to this whole thing.

As for cutting your work hours... I wouldn't do that because the way tax brackets work is that they tax x amount until 250 then tax you y amount after 250. Its not like someone who makes 249k makes more than someone who makes $250,000.1 because the 2nd guy got taxed way more. They only over tax that 1 cent. But with these new deduction scheme things Obama's passing, I have no idea how it even works... Probably won't ever know till I actually get scr*wed. Got to love the USA.

 

[maceo]

I am so pissed off - Obama and his suporters will increase our taxes, will decrease our revenue....What can we do about??? I have to visit the weapon forum again. I left a former socialist country for the freedom of USA - the greatest country in the world and now I have to face again the same demagogy like - "we are equal" and so on. We are equal in the front of God but here, on this planet we're not! I cannot stop to notice the satisfaction of some hospital personnel when they hear us (the md-s) expressing the concern with the "new era". They feel "equal" and ready to enjoy our tax increase. Really sad! And all this empty talk about Norway and other countries is just "opium for the masses". I could go on and on about this subject...I will cut my work hours to stay bellow 250k. The same will do the surgeons. The hospital will have decreased revenue. We'll try to avoid Medicare (like they "paid"well before...) but know they'll cut the payments again. A shame!

dude! where the F*** have you been? You dont think its socialism now? IF it werent socialism I would be making a million dollars a year.. like i deserve. Now i get paid.. whatever the government tells me im getting paid. I dont get to negotiate. Market forces arent at work. I am worth whatever the government says im worth. Its going to get worse for sure, but you know it aint that great now.

We are in this boat now because it went too far. People got too ****ing greedy.

 

[Squiggy]

Let's have a truly free libertarian country. Let the market forces work: no government reimbursement and physicians provide a service and charge for it with a single payer. The medical profession could be just like lawyers. But since it is truly free, let's break down the protectionism surrounding the medical profession in this country. Lets make the medical profession more free and competitive like law. Let's have a compentency test and have that test alone qualify an individual for licensure; after which they can hang out a shingle and practice.

We'll allow any physician from anywhere in the world who proves their competence through the licensure test to work here as a physician. I can guarantee you that when supply finally meets demand, the market price of medical care will take a dive from where they are now. The medical profession in this country is already overpaid because every specialty board restricts their numbers to protect their bottom line.

A highly trained body mechanic who does not innovate should not be making a million dollars a year. Even three to four hundred thousand a year is too much. A large portion of the population will make competent physicians and in a free society, there should be no artificial barriers of entry for this. You use politics to your advantage to create a state of non-competition but you complain when the same politics are attempting to better society by taking physician payments down to true market values.

 

[Surfer]

Let's have a truly free libertarian country. Let the market forces work: no government reimbursement and physicians provide a service and charge for it with a single payer. The medical profession could be just like lawyers. But since it is truly free, let's break down the protectionism surrounding the medical profession in this country. Lets make the medical profession more free and competitive like law. Let's have a compentency test and have that test alone qualify an individual for licensure; after which they can hang out a shingle and practice.

We'll allow any physician from anywhere in the world who proves their competence through the licensure test to work here as a physician. I can guarantee you that when supply finally meets demand, the market price of medical care will take a dive from where they are now. The medical profession in this country is already overpaid because every specialty board restricts their numbers to protect their bottom line.

A highly trained body mechanic who does not innovate should not be making a million dollars a year. Even three to four hundred thousand a year is too much. A large portion of the population will make competent physicians and in a free society, there should be no artificial barriers of entry for this. You use politics to your advantage to create a state of non-competition but you complain when the same politics are attempting to better society by taking physician payments down to true market values.

Oh how wrong you are! First of all, physicians made much more money (relatively) before the govt started meddling. We paid the price to go to med school. The public will pay for good health care. They already do. The average american household pays $12,000 per year in health care. Most of that is unknown to them because it's pre-tax income paid by their employers. If the system were a true market system, they'd be willing to pay $100 to see their PCP and good money to be safely anesthestized for surgery. I'd be willing to stake my future on that assumption. Anybody who didn't pass med school and tried to function as a dr would be sued the first time they screwed up, and put out of business. Addditionally, hospitals would never let an unqualified anesthesiologist treat a patient in their walls because it would lead to liability. See... the free market works. In the free market, I would make double or triple what I would make under the current system.

 

[RxBoy]

Let's have a truly free libertarian country. Let the market forces work: no government reimbursement and physicians provide a service and charge for it with a single payer. The medical profession could be just like lawyers. But since it is truly free, let's break down the protectionism surrounding the medical profession in this country. Lets make the medical profession more free and competitive like law. Let's have a compentency test and have that test alone qualify an individual for licensure; after which they can hang out a shingle and practice.

We'll allow any physician from anywhere in the world who proves their competence through the licensure test to work here as a physician. I can guarantee you that when supply finally meets demand, the market price of medical care will take a dive from where they are now. The medical profession in this country is already overpaid because every specialty board restricts their numbers to protect their bottom line.

A highly trained body mechanic who does not innovate should not be making a million dollars a year. Even three to four hundred thousand a year is too much. A large portion of the population will make competent physicians and in a free society, there should be no artificial barriers of entry for this. You use politics to your advantage to create a state of non-competition but you complain when the same politics are attempting to better society by taking physician payments down to true market values.

I am all about the free market. I voted for Dr. Ron Paul, the only guy that gave a damn about the economy.

But for you to declare that any Joe Shmoo who passes a test is a licensed physician, you have something else coming. A bad lawyer loses cases. A bad doctor kills patients. Thats why we have such tight restrictions. A MD stands for something in this country, someone who devoted most of his life to his profession. You want to delute that image by putting joe shmoo's out there competing with us?

We don't have innovation?
http://www.time.com/time/specials/2008/top10/article/0,30583,1855948_1863993,00.html

We have the best medical research facilities in the world. If you want to devote time to innovation you should go into research. If you want to help patients "brick by brick" you go into practice. Clinicals is service work, its not "innovation". Its efficiency and hard work.

Doctors are not overpaid. We work 80 hour weeks after 12 years of post grad training. We devote every once of energy and brain power into our work. 200k debt just to get through school. Always shoot to be at the top of our class. We don't ask society to give us hand outs, we make every dollar we earn.

 

[igottaquestion]

yes, let us abolish policies tinged with progressive ideology in favor of the ideology of unregulated markets and supply-side economics! maybe then i can finally get my cousin on wall street to figure out a way to take the monkey feces i've been collecting for the past year and slip them into a complicated investment package. better yet, with no oversight maybe i can pull a madoff and fake the monkey feces.

we're really not asking for much. would someone please take pity on us two-percenters? the ever-increasing income inequality of our country is at stake! what will happen to the country when we can no longer price others out of markets or build up piles of wealth without spending it??? wake up progressives! have the last 8 years taught us nothing??? the real problem is that we haven't *done enough* to embrace a free-market ideology. can't this country see that low/no taxes and unregulated markets the only way i can truly defend my greed? because the luck of birth or circumstance had absolutely nothing to do with where i am today. o woe is me.

 

[Surfer]

yes, let us abolish policies tinged with progressive ideology in favor of the ideology of unregulated markets and supply-side economics! maybe then i can finally get my cousin on wall street to figure out a way to take the monkey feces i've been collecting for the past year and slip them into a complicated investment package. better yet, with no oversight maybe i can pull a madoff and fake the monkey feces.

we're really not asking for much. would someone please take pity on us two-percenters? the ever-increasing income inequality of our country is at stake! what will happen to the country when we can no longer price others out of markets or build up piles of wealth without spending it??? wake up progressives! have the last 8 years taught us nothing??? the real problem is that we haven't *done enough* to embrace a free-market ideology. can't this country see that low/no taxes and unregulated markets the only way i can truly defend my greed? because the luck of birth or circumstance had absolutely nothing to do with where i am today. o woe is me.

Go ahead and move to France. Socialism has worked well for them. If you don't like the ideals that the United States of America were founded on (personal accountability, personal individual freedom, limited government intrusion into commerce) then please, just leave and join a country that has tried the socialism/communism/marxism experiment. This country was founded on something different, and we fought various wars over the years to maintain those ideals. I will not let pansies like you sing me some sob song about "birth circumstance" because here in America we ALL have opportunity. But you gotta work, something many here do not seem to understand.

 

[pstone]

FOR THE LAST TIME, stop watching that GODAWFUL excuse for a news show called faux news and wake UP! we are not going to socialism just because your tax rate is going back to the clinton era rates.. i dont rememeber the usa going to hell and a handbasket then. Did you know that Denmark gets taxed at the rate of between 42 and 65 percent? are they dying from overtaxation yet? didnt think so. for the love of god.. you know.. there are not many people that i actually hate. but the neo-cons pushing this idea that we are going to socialism? man i hope a stray lightening bolt hits them. matter of fact.. i think one had to apologize for a chimp cartoon recently :O

greedy *****holes... $hitting bricks because they might have to pay 4% more in taxes wtf@!#

 

[Surfer]

FOR THE LAST TIME, stop watching that GODAWFUL excuse for a news show called faux news and wake UP! we are not going to socialism just because your tax rate is going back to the clinton era rates.. i dont rememeber the usa going to hell and a handbasket then. Did you know that Denmark gets taxed at the rate of between 42 and 65 percent? are they dying from overtaxation yet? didnt think so. for the love of god.. you know.. there are not many people that i actually hate. but the neo-cons pushing this idea that we are going to socialism? man i hope a stray lightening bolt hits them. matter of fact.. i think one had to apologize for a chimp cartoon recently :O

greedy *****holes... $hitting bricks because they might have to pay 4% more in taxes wtf@!#

I just noticed you're actually a "pre-med." So it's hard to have a discussion with somebody who has probably never earned a paycheck or a w2 in their life. Come back and talk to me when your testes have descended and you start shaving.

Just typical. No argument on the merits of the issues, just hysteria.
1) the chimp cartoon. if you think the stimulus bill was written by anything other than chimps, then i can understand why it would upset you so much. for the rest of us, it was a funny commentary on recent events.

2) "neo-cons". hmm. i don't even know what to say, since this is such a new term that means absolutely nothing.

3) if you want to pay another 4% in taxes, then go ahead and do it. I don't want to. in fact, why stop at 4%? why don't you add another 4% since it's no big deal? Why not just jump straight to 10%? See, what you obviously DO NOT UNDERSTAND (because you're a pu ss) is that every single time you raise taxes in the USA, govt revenue goes down. Let me simplify that for your liberal mind: increase tax, economy bad.

4) Denmark? Who gives a damn what's going on in denmark today? I'm a red-blooded american. america is a very different place with a very different ethnic makeup. have you ever lived in a big city? no, not the suburbs, a big, crime-ridden, dirty city? Name one good thing that ever came out of Denmark and their 42-65% tax rates??

5) why am i a "greedy ***** hole" just because i want to keep the money I earned? maybe you and your friends are actually the greedy bastards because you are trying to steel the money from me to line your own pockets and build your own power base. go read a history book, or take an economics class.

Socialism does not work. And yes, nationalizing the banks, the cars, taxing me to "spread the wealth around" = socialism.

ps: i always find it interesting how "tolerant" the liberal bleeding hearts are of differing view points.

 

[pstone]

actually im 23 and last year working in the oil industry at a certain refinery i made 78K. i worked 70-80 hour weeks 7 days a week and made enough cash to finance a decent eduacation for myself for the 2 years ill need for the prerequisites. what was the first major job you had before medicine? what did it pay? ok so shut the **** up.

considering your point on the chimp cartoon, im gonna take the liberty to assume your an ignorant bigot.

i stated the denmark fact because it puts the fact that 33-35% taxes arent actually anywhere near as bad as europe is.

maybe you ARE ignorant if you think the term neo-cons means nothing after having our government hijacked by them for 8 years.

im not a liberal. i voted for ron paul. so suck it.


lol i jsut noticed your a resident.. so that means i owned you in wages last year. if i got an engineering degree i could get hired at a pay rate of about 120ish. life is nice when you know ppl in the business. but its medicine for me.

 

[pstone]

cmon, reply. it cant be that easy to cause ownage. i wanna hear what the broken gop has to say.

oh and about the engineer thing;theres more to it but the main thing is after talking to an electrical engineer, and him telling me how he would have rather been a transplant surgeon if he could go back (he had a type a personality) i decided maybe i should go back to my first love also.

 

[Impromptu]

It's so tempting to feed those cute, cuddly trolls, but I'll resist.

With regards to Obama's grand plans, something is going to be done. What it is hasn't been determined yet. He's going to leave that up to congress, whose combined hot air in political seasons could power a major USA metropolitan area for 3 years. There is a lot of money at stake, and if we don't get involved with those who make decisions, that money is going to be siphoned off by those who don't really care about patients and safety, those who believe they can't let a good crisis go to waste. Start talking. Get involved.

 

[Jeff05]

wait a second. you made almost 80k without graduate education working 70 hours a week. sweet. how would you like to make 100k with a graduate education and residency and patients lives in your hand. not that great of a deal, right?

you mention denmark. ok. in denmark has a relatively homogenous (socioeconomically speaking) population who all pay taxes and live at about the same level. they have excellent free public schools and excellent free college and grad school. so their taxes go to that. the 400 billion to be raised over the next 10 years from increasing taxes on the "rich" (couple makes more than 250k) will go directly to lowering taxes on the "poor"(couple makes less than 150k). in fact the cost of the proposed tax breaks for a portion of the population that only already pays a huge minority of taxes is about 800 billion.

so my federal taxes go back to 39.5%. sweet. but guess what. this administration is going one step further. it's decreasing my deductions in addition to that. that's a new addition. if you looked at your w2 for long enough, you would realize that there are lots of other taxes we pay. like state and SS (money i will NEVER see). as a resident, making much less than 75k/yr, i pay over 40% in taxes. the "rich" who are making over 250 (as a family) are paying 45-50%. with this additional tax burden does not raise their taxes by 4%. it raises them by up to 10% or more. do those people get better public services for that? no. they get nothing. do they get help with putting their kids through school? no. because they don't qualify for any help.

the families that make 250+ are the highly educated professionals of this country. the small businesses.

but, the administration must decrease entitlement spending, ie medicare and medicaid. they are proposing cuts to all across the board. likely a 25% decrease in the next year or two. private insurers will follow suit. salaries are a fraction of what they used to be.

all of a sudden, after working really really hard (no government handouts helped me), working my way through college, borrowing 250k for medical school, working crazy stressful hours for years of residency (and doing research and teaching), i am emerging into a market that is cutting my salary by 25% and increasing (my already 50% taxes) even higher. you could get an engineering job for 120k/yr (i don't think so)? that's really great. because with the current proposals a family doctor or an internist working long hours is going to be making less.

as a final note. you seem really sure about how the world works and really excellent at counting (tax) money that's not yours. maybe, just maybe you could be somewhat wrong and have a bit to learn. that's all i'm saying. you're a new medical student and no offense, but you have NO IDEA the $hitpie you're about to eat in med school and residency (and now far beyond).

actually im 23 and last year working in the oil industry at a certain refinery i made 78K. i worked 70-80 hour weeks 7 days a week and made eno
ugh cash to finance a decent eduacation for myself for the 2 years ill need for the prerequisites. what was the first major job you had before medicine? what did it pay? ok so shut the **** up.

considering your point on the chimp cartoon, im gonna take the liberty to assume your an ignorant bigot.

i stated the denmark fact because it puts the fact that 33-35% taxes arent actually anywhere near as bad as europe is.

maybe you ARE ignorant if you think the term neo-cons means nothing after having our government hijacked by them for 8 years.

im not a liberal. i voted for ron paul. so suck it.


lol i jsut noticed your a resident.. so that means i owned you in wages last year. if i got an engineering degree i could get hired at a pay rate of about 120ish. life is nice when you know ppl in the business. but its medicine for me.

 

[Surfer]

you have NO IDEA the $hitpie you're about to eat in med school and residency (and now far beyond).

I had no idea either. If you haven't done it, you don't know how what it's like. law school, mba school, engineering... nothing is as grueling as med school/residency. i feel like a piece of me was eaten by med school and i'm hoping i don't lose another piece during residency.

 

[Gern Blansten]

cmon, reply. it cant be that easy to cause ownage. i wanna hear what the broken gop has to say.

oh and about the engineer thing;theres more to it but the main thing is after talking to an electrical engineer, and him telling me how he would have rather been a transplant surgeon if he could go back (he had a type a personality) i decided maybe i should go back to my first love also.

Go to amazon.com, purchase this book and read it. Then come back for a discussion on the topic. Tell us if you identify more with Hank Rearden or Jim Taggart. This will let us know if you are worth saving from yourself.

 

[guitarguy09]

There is a lot of money at stake, and if we don't get involved with those who make decisions, that money is going to be siphoned off by those who don't really care about patients and safety, those who believe they can't let a good crisis go to waste. Start talking. Get involved.

 

[soupcan]

Go to amazon.com, purchase this book and read it. Then come back for a discussion on the topic. Tell us if you identify more with Hank Rearden or Jim Taggart. This will let us know if you are worth saving from yourself.

I think Obama needs to read it as well.

From the wiki review:

In the world of Atlas Shrugged, society stagnates when independent productive achievers began to be socially demonized and even punished for their accomplishments, even though society had been far more healthy and prosperous by allowing, encouraging and rewarding self-reliance and individual achievement.

If that doesn't summarize exactly the path that we are headed down, I don't know what does.

 

[Jeff05]

wow. one of my favorite books. this is from a very memorable speech in the book:

"And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

 

[pstone]

wow.. only a few hours passed yet it seems i really lit a few ppl off. not really sure where to start on the reply; hell of alot of points.

just a couple of things i noticed that were blatantly wrong:

@ jeff05:

50% taxes? in the u.s.? are you ****ing kidding me? i could go in-depth about how much of a fallacy that notion is but its not worth it. unless you consider yourself more of an expert at taxes, finance and investment then warren buffet you might want to reconsider that 'generous' figure.

yes, as an electrical engineer you can make not only 120k but even more then that. my dad whos in the biz also worked with an EE whos next job was going to be in the congo for a certain international oil company.. guy was pulling down 168 g's. with a four year engineering year degree, and no he doesnt get stock options or anything. if you are that concerned about the money, maybe you picked the wrong occupation. do i hear a certain amount of regret in your posts?

@ Gern Blanston:

going to ignore the book post; i as well could post up any number of random books for you to read in an attempt to try to make you look uninformed also.

@ Surfer:

I'm sure your right.

@ jeff05's 2nd post:

i take it your not a christian, right? if you aren't, then clearly we have a philosophical difference that cant be resolved. i guess we can agree to disagree.

 

[pstone]

wow. one of my favorite books. this is from a very memorable speech in the book:

"And then there's your 'brother-love' morality. Why is it moral to serve others, but not yourself? If enjoyment is a value, why is it moral when experienced by others, but not by you? Why is it immoral to produce something of value and keep it for yourself, when it is moral for others who haven't earned it to accept it? If it's virtuous to give, isn't it then selfish to take?

Your acceptance of the code of selflessness has made you fear the man who has a dollar less than you because it makes you feel that that dollar is rightfully his. You hate the man with a dollar more than you because the dollar he's keeping is rightfully yours. Your code has made it impossible to know when to give and when to grab.

You know that you can't give away everything and starve yourself. You've forced yourselves to live with undeserved, irrational guilt. Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle. This country wasn't built by men who sought handouts. In its brilliant youth, this country showed the rest of the world what greatness was possible to Man and what happiness is possible on Earth.

Then it began apologizing for its greatness and began giving away its wealth, feeling guilty for having produced more than ikts neighbors. Twelve years ago, I saw what was wrong with the world and where the battle for Life had to be fought. I saw that the enemy was an inverted morality and that my acceptance of that morality was its only power. I was the first of the men who refused to give up the pursuit of his own happiness in order to serve others.

To those of you who retain some remnant of dignity and the will to live your lives for yourselves, you have the chance to make the same choice. Examine your values and understand that you must choose one side or the other. Any compromise between good and evil only hurts the good and helps the evil.

If you've understood what I've said, stop supporting your destroyers. Don't accept their philosophy. Your destroyers hold you by means of your endurance, your generosity, your innocence, and your love. Don't exhaust yourself to help build the kind of world that you see around you now. In the name of the best within you, don't sacrifice the world to those who will take away your happiness for it.

The world will change when you are ready to pronounce this oath:
I swear by my Life and my love of it that I will never live for the sake of another man,
nor ask another man to live for the sake of mine."

^ you could just have easily said: **** everybody but me, get money. something tells me you didnt tell the adcoms this load of.. 'stuff' when you applied for med school. and if this is what you think, well then why in gods name did you go to med school? if you wanted to make a ****load, business and industry is where its at.

 

[BGriffin]

I don't have anything to add to this discussion except to say that pstone really seems to think he has everything figured out, especially at this stage of his medical career. Message to pstone: chill out dude! People might be more receptive to your ideas if you present them in a less argumentative fashion.

 

[pstone]

bgriffin, i dont think i have everything figured out, but advice taken. ill try and tone down the 'argumentative fashion' in which i presented my viewpoint.

 

[psychbender]

^ you could just have easily said: **** everybody but me, get money. something tells me you didnt tell the adcoms this load of.. 'stuff' when you applied for med school. and if this is what you think, well then why in gods name did you go to med school? if you wanted to make a ****load, business and industry is where its at.

I'd say maybe because of this part:
Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle.

Objectivism doesn't mean "**** everybody but me, get money."

Is it better to choose to help someone, or to do it out of some misguided sense of guilt?

 

[pstone]

I'd say maybe because of this part:
Is it ever proper to help another man? No, if he demands it as his right or as a duty that you owe him. Yes, if it's your own free choice based on your judgment of the value of that person and his struggle.

Objectivism doesn't mean "**** everybody but me, get money."

Is it better to choose to help someone, or to do it out of some misguided sense of guilt?

in my opinion its neither. its a duty to help your fellow man. besides, that one statement does not excuse the rest of that terribly misguided excerpt. anyone know if the author is an atheist?

 

[RabbMD]

I love the premed students justifying these tax rapes.

Anyways, the main issue I have is one of total intellectual dishonesty on the part of Obama. Keynesian economic theory on fiscal policy basically states four things (yes oversimplification). During a recession you run deficits by 1). CUTTING TAXES and 2). Increasing Government spending. During good times you are supposed to make up those deficits and pay down the debts with surpluses by 3). Raising taxes and 4). Cutting spending....

Now the entire basis of this super rushed unparalleled stimulus package was that we needed a fiscal stimulus policy because we are in a recession/depression. Now why the hell would you counteract your own theory to rush something without discussion by RAISING taxes drastically? And this is not an across the board tax raise such as letting the Bush tax cuts expire, it is a selective tax raise that only targets people who have mortgages, and make large charitable contributions.... Why the hell would you want to in this market discourage people from buying homes and donating to charity???

And to that premed who doubts 50% tax watch this.... 39% federal tax bracket + 1.45% medicare tax + 6% state income tax + 6.2% soc sec (yes there is currently a cap, but ask any attending physician in his thirties if they expect even 10 cents on the dollar back from what they pay into that Sh*^T hole of a program and I bet you know what the answer will be)... That right there is 52.65%. Now add in the tax on charitable contributions and mortgages, and if you even have $50,000 in schedule A deductions (well under average for the top income bracket) That is another $5500 in taxes a year alone (39% of $50000 is $19,500, 28% of $50,000 is $14,000, and $19500-$14000 = $5500)... Guess what percentage of US citizens even pays $5500 in federal income tax a year?

I am using this data as shown on the noprofit taxfoundations website for 2006. You better believe with the way the tax rebate of 2007 encouraged low income filers to get their free govt check the 2007 data will be far more scewed.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The bottom 50% of income tax filers only paid an average of $963 total income tax. The 3rd quartile of income tax filers (AGI of 50-75%) average a total income tax burden of $3243. That means the tax increase being talked about here above and beyond what Obama already promised is well over what around 60% of the county pays in total taxes... AND ALL THIS DURING A RECESSION....

I think even John Maynard Keyes would roll over in his grave.

 

[dhb]

The US is a socialist country except unlike us in Europe you get no health insurance and no education you're getting screwed pretty badly and it ain't going to get better.

 

[badasshairday]

@ jeff05:

50% taxes? in the u.s.? are you ****ing kidding me? i could go in-depth about how much of a fallacy that notion is but its not worth it. unless you consider yourself more of an expert at taxes, finance and investment then warren buffet you might want to reconsider that 'generous' figure.

yes, as an electrical engineer you can make not only 120k but even more then that. my dad whos in the biz also worked with an EE whos next job was going to be in the congo for a certain international oil company.. guy was pulling down 168 g's. with a four year engineering year degree, and no he doesnt get stock options or anything. if you are that concerned about the money, maybe you picked the wrong occupation. do i hear a certain amount of regret in your posts?

Okay, so money shouldn't be a factor at all right? Most people actually DO give a damn that their salary is going to be cut 25%. Especially after going 200K in debt, studying non-stop, working long hours, dealing with lawe suits, I hope I don't have to struggle too much. But the way this is going, I'm probably going to have a difficult time paying back my loans and living a decent life. My loans are mostly around 6.5% interest, locked in for the life of the loan. This has been true for the class of 2012 and on, so yes, you will be screwed to my friend. I can't wait until you see the interest piled on each quarter.

 

[badasshairday]

The US is a socialist country except unlike us in Europe you get no health insurance and no education you're getting screwed pretty badly and it ain't going to get better.

Yep, pay a crap load in taxes and get nothinig but crappy public schools, high tuition for college/prof school, no health care.

 

[Jeff05]

pstone,

i don't think you realize how you sound. because if you did you wouln' want to sound that way.

1. the fact that you are not aware that a 45-50% tax burden exists in the US with higher brackets underlines your ignorance. if you look on a W2 of some "rich" you will see 36% FIT (will go to 39.5). extra 6% (now 6, but will be 12) for SS. don't forget property taxes, which are not included on w2. plus city taxes.

2. you are right i'm not a christian. meaning i don't want to IMPOSE my will of "goodness" on all around me. i want to help people. and do on a daily basis. but, NO ONE has the right to come to my door and take what they want whenever they want.

3. regret? no regrets. what's the point. frustration? a little bit. but, you gotta gimme a break. i just found out that after working my ass off for my entire 20th decade i am about to take and overall 40% pay cut (much of which will be going as tax breaks to others - who i can GUARANTEE DID NOT WORK AS HARD AS I DID).
guy, i feel so badly for you, really, genuinely. you are in for a very rude awakening over the next few years of your life.

4. that example of an electrical engineer making 160k/yr...my father is the top pay bracket, head of engineering dept at a large multinational semiconductor corporation. he has a masters and 30 years experience. he doesn't make that sort of money.
you, 23 years old with a bachelors, no way.

5. tip, this is a forum for discussion, not attacks and insults. please tone it down.

 

[Gern Blansten]

@ Gern Blanston:

going to ignore the book post; i as well could post up any number of random books for you to read in an attempt to try to make you look uninformed also.

This is not exactly a random book reference. According to a joint survey conducted by the Library of Congress and the Book of the Month Club, Atlas Shrugged was considered the 2nd most influential book of all time. Guess what was first. The Bible.
So go ahead and "post up" your random books to make me look uninformed. You only have one available that can trump Atlas Shrugged. I suspect I can find quotes in the Bible to support either side of this issue.

Ill-gotten treasures are of no value, but righteousness delivers from death. The LORD does not let the righteous go hungry but he thwarts the craving of the wicked. Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:2-4

I "give" away plenty of my money to where I wish to give it (church, hospitals, education, research etc). I have a problem with the fact that Obama and others think they know better how to spend my money.

 

[2win]

FOR THE LAST TIME, stop watching that GODAWFUL excuse for a news show called faux news and wake UP! we are not going to socialism just because your tax rate is going back to the clinton era rates.. i dont rememeber the usa going to hell and a handbasket then. Did you know that Denmark gets taxed at the rate of between 42 and 65 percent? are they dying from overtaxation yet? didnt think so. for the love of god.. you know.. there are not many people that i actually hate. but the neo-cons pushing this idea that we are going to socialism? man i hope a stray lightening bolt hits them. matter of fact.. i think one had to apologize for a chimp cartoon recently :O

greedy *****holes... $hitting bricks because they might have to pay 4% more in taxes wtf@!#

Dear student - so far I think that you enjoyed (maybe) to live on money hardly earned by your parents, so I suggest to don't try to educate people about taxes...Regarding the socialism I would like to remember you that doesn't work. If you believe that USA is the place for this system you are wrong. Before to give Denmark as an example I would suggest to take a sabatical there. Don't forget either that in Denmark and Sweden they import physicians from Germany - taxation is so high that MD-s prefer to take 6 months of unpaid vacation. Maybe in US we'll bring MD-s from Cuba. We made a huge mistake in Russia and other countries at the begining of the socialist movement - we didn't kill them all! We listened to rhetorics like yours and some of us believed that it will work out somehow. The result was 50 years of promoting mediocrity, food stamps and labor camps. If you want socialism go in Cuba. I came in USA because I love freedom - capitalism!

 

[Duane E]

Listen to this, let me know if you agree or not...
www.angiestarrphotography.com/glenbeck.mp3

 

[Greenman]

Atlas Shrugged is a BOOK. It is not reality. Please stop citing fiction in political debates.

 

[Lonestar]

I will end up paying 25K more in taxes. Great now my rate will go up to 55%.

The govt will actually make more than me on my income!!!!!!

Time for a revolution.

 

[Squiggy]

Look... politics and government intervention is what props up the medical profession and guarantees high incomes. If you want a minimalist government with no taxes, we should as a corrollary return to a state of medicine before Flexner: America at the turn of the 20th century when income tax was non-existent and any doctor could hang a shingle and practice. Allow general practice through a licensure exam like the lawyers and specializing through passage of specialty boards (which would require training to pass). If incompetent physicians mess up, malpractice will take them out of the market.

Physicians in this country control an essential good and the fact that they limit their numbers through residencies gives the profession monopolistic control over the market. If you want no taxes, you should also accept no protectionism. It's pointless to whine about these tax hikes because most Americans are getting tax cuts and it's unlikely these changes will rescind anytime soon.

 

[igottaquestion]

Look... politics and government intervention is what props up the medical profession and guarantees high incomes. If you want a minimalist government with no taxes, we should as a corrollary return to a state of medicine before Flexner: America at the turn of the 20th century when income tax was non-existent and any doctor could hang a shingle and practice. Allow general practice through a licensure exam like the lawyers and specializing through passage of specialty boards (which would require training to pass). If incompetent physicians mess up, malpractice will take them out of the market.

Physicians in this country control an essential good and the fact that they limit their numbers through residencies gives the profession monopolistic control over the market. If you want no taxes, you should also accept no protectionism. It's pointless to whine about these tax hikes because most Americans are getting tax cuts and it's unlikely these changes will rescind anytime soon.

amen.

and two-percenters, quit selectively using the simplistic "philosophies" of objectivism and libertarianism in order to rationalize your selfishness. just admit to yourself and others that aspects of your behavior are motivated by *amoral* greed. ad hoc use of these half-butt "philosophies" is lipstick on a pig.

 

[guitarguy09]

I'm not as familiar with the whole tax system as some of you guys, but what is your opinion on a "flat tax" rate for everyone. It seems like this is the most fair to me and I don't get why this will never be implemented. A flat tax (with some sort of low-end income cut off) seems like it would be the most fair and would allow people who have worked hard for their money... actually keep more of it. There wouldn't be any confusion and everyone would understand up front how much they are expected to pay, etc. I'm sure this is just me being naive, but that's why I'm posting this (for your opinions/help).

 

[Frumps]

I'm not as familiar with the whole tax system as some of you guys, but what is your opinion on a "flat tax" rate for everyone. It seems like this is the most fair to me and I don't get why this will never be implemented. A flat tax (with some sort of low-end income cut off) seems like it would be the most fair and would allow people who have worked hard for their money... actually keep more of it. There wouldn't be any confusion and everyone would understand up front how much they are expected to pay, etc. I'm sure this is just me being naive, but that's why I'm posting this (for your opinions/help).

I agree. I liked Huckabee's plan of a consumptiom tax, which was essentially a flat tax. I would bring this up in conversation to other people and they acted like I was an a**hole to think this way (especially an attending from overseas). I mean, wasn't "all men created equal" part of this country, or was that just in regards to race.

 

[Gern Blansten]

Atlas Shrugged is a BOOK. It is not reality. Please stop citing fiction in political debates.

I didn't realize that the rule maker was going to show up. Sorry.
So, we can link to websites and political blogs, but no books that are considered one of the most influential political books of all time? I think I've got it now. Although the book was written 50 years ago, the things it describes are what is happening right now. Punish the producers and reward failure and laziness.
If you are scared off because it is ~1200 pages long, they have an audio book version. This should be forced reading for everyone who voted for the people in power today. What if the producers just went on strike?

 

[badasshairday]

AMSA=Brain Wash.

 

[Willard]

Did you take a look at the source you provided? Filers making between $150k and $388k paid 17.5% of their income in income tax, on average, in 2006. If you make $250k, that's about $44k. Add in an extra $6500 for the max SS tax and $3700 for Medicare tax, then $15k for your 6% state income tax. Add in $5500 for the reduction in benefit for itemized deductions. That's a total of about $75k, or 30% of your total income. I think what is tripping you up is the meaning of "marginal tax rate."

By the way, these changes are not scheduled to take effect until 2011. Also, the stimulus bill was 1/3 tax cuts.

I love the premed students justifying these tax rapes.

Anyways, the main issue I have is one of total intellectual dishonesty on the part of Obama. Keynesian economic theory on fiscal policy basically states four things (yes oversimplification). During a recession you run deficits by 1). CUTTING TAXES and 2). Increasing Government spending. During good times you are supposed to make up those deficits and pay down the debts with surpluses by 3). Raising taxes and 4). Cutting spending....

Now the entire basis of this super rushed unparalleled stimulus package was that we needed a fiscal stimulus policy because we are in a recession/depression. Now why the hell would you counteract your own theory to rush something without discussion by RAISING taxes drastically? And this is not an across the board tax raise such as letting the Bush tax cuts expire, it is a selective tax raise that only targets people who have mortgages, and make large charitable contributions.... Why the hell would you want to in this market discourage people from buying homes and donating to charity???

And to that premed who doubts 50% tax watch this.... 39% federal tax bracket + 1.45% medicare tax + 6% state income tax + 6.2% soc sec (yes there is currently a cap, but ask any attending physician in his thirties if they expect even 10 cents on the dollar back from what they pay into that Sh*^T hole of a program and I bet you know what the answer will be)... That right there is 52.65%. Now add in the tax on charitable contributions and mortgages, and if you even have $50,000 in schedule A deductions (well under average for the top income bracket) That is another $5500 in taxes a year alone (39% of $50000 is $19,500, 28% of $50,000 is $14,000, and $19500-$14000 = $5500)... Guess what percentage of US citizens even pays $5500 in federal income tax a year?

I am using this data as shown on the noprofit taxfoundations website for 2006. You better believe with the way the tax rebate of 2007 encouraged low income filers to get their free govt check the 2007 data will be far more scewed.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/news/show/250.html

The bottom 50% of income tax filers only paid an average of $963 total income tax. The 3rd quartile of income tax filers (AGI of 50-75%) average a total income tax burden of $3243. That means the tax increase being talked about here above and beyond what Obama already promised is well over what around 60% of the county pays in total taxes... AND ALL THIS DURING A RECESSION....

I think even John Maynard Keyes would roll over in his grave.

 

[guitarguy09]

Just thought this was interesting and somewhat relevant...

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200990223030

 

[Impromptu]

I don't think Obama is planning on actual reductions in tax rates for anyone. He is offering tax credits, which count as income and will be taxed as income in the following year. But the tax rates are all staying the same or increasing.

I've heard rumors that this tax credit may give a refund to those that don't even pay income taxes (aka welfare), so 4th year students may want to file their taxes this year and see what comes their way. They'll just have to pay the piper next year for it.

 

[RabbMD]

Did you take a look at the source you provided? Filers making between $150k and $388k paid 17.5% of their income in income tax, on average, in 2006. If you make $250k, that's about $44k. Add in an extra $6500 for the max SS tax and $3700 for Medicare tax, then $15k for your 6% state income tax. Add in $5500 for the reduction in benefit for itemized deductions. That's a total of about $75k, or 30% of your total income. I think what is tripping you up is the meaning of "marginal tax rate."

By the way, these changes are not scheduled to take effect until 2011. Also, the stimulus bill was 1/3 tax cuts.

When someone is deciding whether to work harder, or say whether their wife will work a 40 hour per week, $40,000/year job, the only thing that matters is their marginal tax rate... You act like 30% in total net taxes is nothing... When 50% of america pays 3%??? High marginal tax rates is what discourages that extra push to expand your business. Why take on that surgery center job when you lose over 50% of the additional income that would come in to taxes? Why expand a practice and create additional clerical and support jobs when you carry 100% of the risk of failure, and your reward is only 45% of potential additional profits after taxes?

If the recession is so severe as to necessitate rapid fiscal expansion through an unquestioned "any spending is good spending" stimulus bill, do you think it will likely be a distant memory by Jan 1 2011? I consider that intellectually dishonest. If in fact the economy turns around in 6 months, then sure you have an argument. But when every economic indicator tends to point to a deep and severe recession the stupidest economic policy is to start talking about the tax increases you are going to make to build up a governemnt surplus. That like I said would make Keynes roll over in his grave.

And what is the rational for only taxing people that have large itemized schedule A deductions? We made our tax system complex through the work of both lobyists and desires to inventivise certain behaviors. When you have octamom getting huge tax credits for "procreating" would you really rather go after charitable contributions? What Economic Giant wants to disincentivise mortgages and charitable donations in this economy? Or ever?

 

[Jeff05]

wow. the control we have. an average internist starting out of residency makes 90-110k in new york city. an average pediatrician makes about that as well. that's not enough to buy a 2 bedroom apartment...


if you want to stop the monopoly, just let FMGs come into this country, bypass residency training and start practicing. you are welcome to go to those physicians. i like my physicians well trained and speaking my language.

as far as protectionism and taxes. the government does NOT protect physicians. it doesn't prop anything up. it has been chipping away at us forever. our respective professional societies attempt to protect and lobby for us.


this was one of the last 1st world countries in the world where a person could come and work really hard and make something of herself.

again, i wouldn't mind paying more in taxes if it would do something/anything for me or my children. but, it won't. my tax money will be directly redistributed to the middle class. by the sound of your post, my money will likely go to you. so lets cut out the middle man. why don't you just PM me your address and i'll write you a check.

Look... politics and government intervention is what props up the medical profession and guarantees high incomes. If you want a minimalist government with no taxes, we should as a corrollary return to a state of medicine before Flexner: America at the turn of the 20th century when income tax was non-existent and any doctor could hang a shingle and practice. Allow general practice through a licensure exam like the lawyers and specializing through passage of specialty boards (which would require training to pass). If incompetent physicians mess up, malpractice will take them out of the market.

Physicians in this country control an essential good and the fact that they limit their numbers through residencies gives the profession monopolistic control over the market. If you want no taxes, you should also accept no protectionism. It's pointless to whine about these tax hikes because most Americans are getting tax cuts and it's unlikely these changes will rescind anytime soon.

 

[Duane E]

Atlas Shrugged is a BOOK. It is not reality. Please stop citing fiction in political debates.

"The Prince" and "Communist Manifesto" are books too. Sometimes books become reality if we let them...

 

[Duane E]

this was one of the last 1st world countries in the world where a person could come and work really hard and make something of herself.

That was the "American dream" of the 50s and 60s, but apparently that doesn't work anymore. Time for "change" so that it doesn't matter if you work hard or not, we all get your money.

Hmm, I couldn't find the sarcasm smilie...

 

[Scrub MD]

Just thought this was interesting and somewhat relevant...

http://www.citizen-times.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=200990223030

This guy is who I want helping shape the future of healthcare.