Obstacles as an Osteopathic Student

[JimmyB123]

I was wondering if some students can comment on any obstacles they face as a DO student whether it comes down to matching, on away rotations with other MD students, in medical environments not heavily populated with DOs, or just in their personal lives in general. Or is it really just smooth sailing in this day and age?

Any comments would be much appreciated

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[sylvanthus]

In before the usual chaos ensues.

 

[costales]

Jimmy, you ever been in a cockpit before? Have you ever been in a Turkish prison?

 

[NurWollen]

I was wondering if some students can comment on any obstacles they face as a DO student whether it comes down to matching, on away rotations with other MD students, in medical environments not heavily populated with DOs, or just in their personal lives in general. Or is it really just smooth sailing in this day and age?

Any comments would be much appreciated

Smooth sailing is an excellent way to describe medical school!

 

[JimmyB123]

I know my comments may sound naive but that's because I really am! I don't know any DOs or any DO students. I have a couple interviews and while preparing for my interviews, I wanted some perspective. That's all! Help me out

 

[joeDO2]

1) harder to match certain high demand specialties on acgme residencies
2) harder to get some of the better away rotations
3) harder to become faculty at a few of the big name places

 

[hallowmann]

1) harder to match certain high demand specialties on acgme residencies
2) harder to get some of the better away rotations
3) harder to become faculty at a few of the big name places

Yeah, this is probably an exhaustive list. All else is likely equal. These are all things you'll have to deal with pre-residency.

Maybe I'll also add that as a DO, you are required to take the COMLEX exams, and you may also want to take the USMLE as well to be more competitive for ACGME residencies. But I suppose you don't have to, so it may fall under joeDO2's first thing.

 

[Dharma]

As an osteopathic student, I found the ischial tuberosity spread to be quite the obstacle… both giving and receiving. Now cough B!+(#

 

[koan]

Funny you ask, our campus has an obstacle course that was previously used by the military. We faced these obstacles, and ultimately surmounted them. You will do the same.

 

[bajastapler]

I've only made up to pre-clincals, so I will only speak in that regard.

obstacle 1: more mandatory class hours, which translates to less free time. You are required to spend a minimum of X hours per week learning OMM in a lab. Depending on your school this will vary, but expect to lose ~5 hrs per week to OMM. + more during a test week.
obstacle 2: lack of research opportunities. Again this is school dependent, but during your summer b/ween MS1-MS2 is the first major opportunity you have to start defining your CV. If you want to go into a fellowship/competitive specialty it would behoove you to cling onto a research opportunity. Some schools offer a fair number of opportunities, most; however, do not. More pressure on you to define your CV.


tldr: The major obstacles I've faced as a DO student so far: more mandatory class hours and less research opportunities.

edit: I forgot the biggie. Two set of board exams. You really should take both the USMLE and COMLEX, which translates to more money down the drain.

 

[NurWollen]

I've only made up to pre-clincals, so I will only speak in that regard.

obstacle 1: more mandatory class hours, which translates to less free time. You are required to spend a minimum of X hours per week learning OMM in a lab. Depending on your school this will vary, but expect to lose ~5 hrs per week to OMM. + more during a test week.
obstacle 2: lack of research opportunities. Again this is school dependent, but during your summer b/ween MS1-MS2 is the first major opportunity you have to start defining your CV. If you want to go into a fellowship/competitive specialty it would behoove you to cling onto a research opportunity. Some schools offer a fair number of opportunities, most; however, do not. More pressure on you to define your CV.


tldr: The major obstacles I've faced as a DO student so far: more mandatory class hours and less research opportunities.

edit: I forgot the biggie. Two set of board exams. You really should take both the USMLE and COMLEX, which translates to more money down the drain.

I agree but I don't really think the extra class time thing can be considered a big deal at all. I don't think there is a single exam where I can say, "well, if I hadn't had OMM this week I'd have done so much better." I bet the amount of time spent in class varies more between individual schools than it does between DO schools as a whole vs MD schools as a whole.

 

[wjs010]

I've only made up to pre-clincals, so I will only speak in that regard.

obstacle 1: more mandatory class hours, which translates to less free time. You are required to spend a minimum of X hours per week learning OMM in a lab. Depending on your school this will vary, but expect to lose ~5 hrs per week to OMM. + more during a test week.
obstacle 2: lack of research opportunities. Again this is school dependent, but during your summer b/ween MS1-MS2 is the first major opportunity you have to start defining your CV. If you want to go into a fellowship/competitive specialty it would behoove you to cling onto a research opportunity. Some schools offer a fair number of opportunities, most; however, do not. More pressure on you to define your CV.


tldr: The major obstacles I've faced as a DO student so far: more mandatory class hours and less research opportunities.

edit: I forgot the biggie. Two set of board exams. You really should take both the USMLE and COMLEX, which translates to more money down the drain.

Two weeks in so far, and we do 1.5 hours a week of omm

 

[bajastapler]

-

 

[Silent Cool]

I was wondering if some students can comment on any obstacles they face as a DO student whether it comes down to matching, on away rotations with other MD students, in medical environments not heavily populated with DOs, or just in their personal lives in general. Or is it really just smooth sailing in this day and age?

Any comments would be much appreciated

1. Being a DO.
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1,256. Being a DO.

 

[JimmyB123]

1. Being a DO.
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1,256. Being a DO.

So you regret going into the profession?

 

[Silent Cool]

So you regret going into the profession?

It was a joke. I mean only that the biggest obstacle for any given Osteopathic medical students with any given set of board sores, research, third year grades, pre-clin grades, etc..., will be the simple fact that they are DOs. They will automatically be held in lower regard when evaluated for admission to any given residency program or field because of that one fact. Other obstacles are those that have been mentioned, like having to spend time with OMM (which will hinder your pre-clin performance), or getting crappy third year rotations (which is the standard at many DO schools), or having to relocate to some $hitty city (which is where many if not most DO schools are located). All of this plays into the fact that the degree and associated training are perceived as inferior and necessarily make it more challenging for any given DO student to achieve some arbitrary level of success compared to his/her MD equivalent.

I spoke to an MD friend of mine a few years ago who related to me her MD cousin's experience with DOs. "All the DO residents suck," her cousin said.

::shrugs::

You can take it for what you think it's worth, but the fact of the matter is that perception is alive and well--like it or not--and that will most likely be your biggest obstacle.

good luck.

 

[sylvanthus]

Agree with above, just wanted to add my personal story to the mix also. For EM interviews, I had to apply to roughly twice as many programs as MD students with lower board scores to get the same number of interviews. So even a moderately competitive field like EM has discrimination toward DO students. It is not just the competitive specialties.

 

[JimmyB123]

Wow..this is depressing. Thanks for the feedback anyways

 

[Dr. Zombie]

"All the DO residents suck," her cousin said.

Yeah I have a feeling most of these DOs don't suck simply by the way it was stated. Pretty sure the cousin is just talking out of her duodenum.

 

[Izanami]

eh I think the 'obstacles' are being blown out of proportion here on SDN. I am a 3rd year student at an MD school, my sister recently graduated from LECOM, my uncles and cousins are MDs/DOs so the topic of MD vs DO comes up quite frequently during family meetings. I would say her medical school experience is pretty much identical to mine, she never mentioned about any discrimination in any kinds or forms although she did really went on the boards and matched into a good academic Gas program. The MDs in my family have nothing but good things to say about their DO counterparts. Personally, I have seen a few 4th year DO audition rotators on the floors my school hospital as well, and the attendings and residents are treating them the same way as everyone else. Most of the time, you won't even know if they are DO or MD.

I think you are overthinking stuff asking these types of questions on an internet message board. If you have the grades and score to get into MD schools and being DO bothers you, then by all mean, go MD. Remember some people on SDN are hellbent on putting down the DO degree just because they can over the INTERNET. Once medical school starts, you will be busy enough not to care about the little stuff. I am not saying that there aren't any obstacles but I think they aren't as bad as people make them out to be on SDN. It doesn't really help if you keep being paranoid about people discriminating against you. Personally, if I were a DO, I wouldn't even apply to those residencies that are known to discriminate against my degree. It's masochistic to pick hostile environments over ones that welcome and value your worth. Thousands of DO students graduate every year, if they are doing fine then you should be too.

My sister graduated from medical school with 150k in debt. My debt load will be around 280k once I graduated. I am thinking about going into EM or Gas as well. So at the of the day, I probably will be my sister's colleague doing the very same thing that she does but she's already 130k ahead of me. At family meetings, it's kinda hard for me to justify for that 130k difference in student loan. I guess the moral of the story is that you should go to the cheapest medical school that you can find because in the long run your financial wellbeing will far outweigh all these trivial things that you think of as a big deal right now.

Some people might say "but your experience is an anecdotal exception!" eh but still I think mine is still more representative of the real thing than what someone heard from his/her MD's MD friend. Sorry I don't have any stories about the 'DO struggle' that you are looking to read about but I guess I am just trying to give you the big picture, the stuff that matters, "the light at the end of the tunnel" kinda thing. And please don't even try to correct or refute me, I am not looking for an argument, I am just sharing what I know . Good luck with your career choice! There are more to life than picking MD vs DO.

 

[user3]

It was a joke. I mean only that the biggest obstacle for any given Osteopathic medical students with any given set of board sores, research, third year grades, pre-clin grades, etc..., will be the simple fact that they are DOs. They will automatically be held in lower regard when evaluated for admission to any given residency program or field because of that one fact. Other obstacles are those that have been mentioned, like having to spend time with OMM (which will hinder your pre-clin performance), or getting crappy third year rotations (which is the standard at many DO schools), or having to relocate to some $hitty city (which is where many if not most DO schools are located). All of this plays into the fact that the degree and associated training are perceived as inferior and necessarily make it more challenging for any given DO student to achieve some arbitrary level of success compared to his/her MD equivalent.

I spoke to an MD friend of mine a few years ago who related to me her MD cousin's experience with DOs. "All the DO residents suck," her cousin said.

::shrugs::

You can take it for what you think it's worth, but the fact of the matter is that perception is alive and well--like it or not--and that will most likely be your biggest obstacle.

good luck.

here is what frustrates me.

complaints about clinical rotations pop up fairly frequently here, even from the most established DO schools. Usually the poster will also comment to the effect that clinical education at DO schools is inferior/uneven/poorly standardized, whatever, compared to MD. But then another person from their school will fire back and say their experience was great. And another will tell them they should have taken more initiative to be taught/do procedures/write SOAP notes/whatever they complained about. And another will say the MD students they knew had similar complaints.

so back to what is frustrating- so many people condone the status quo (this as an example), when it is exactly these types of issues that have contributed to DO stigma/discrimination. why?

 

[hallowmann]

eh I think the 'obstacles' are being blown out of proportion here on SDN. I am a 3rd year student at an MD school, my sister recently graduated from LECOM, my uncles and cousins are MDs/DOs so the topic of MD vs DO comes up quite frequently during family meetings. I would say her medical school experience is pretty much identical to mine, she never mentioned about any discrimination in any kinds or forms although she did really went on the boards and matched into a good academic Gas program. The MDs in my family have nothing but good things to say about their DO counterparts. Personally, I have seen a few 4th year DO audition rotators on the floors my school hospital as well, and the attendings and residents are treating them the same way as everyone else. Most of the time, you won't even know if they are DO or MD.

I think you are overthinking stuff asking these types of questions on an internet message board. If you have the grades and score to get into MD schools and being DO bothers you, then by all mean, go MD. Remember some people on SDN are hellbent on putting down the DO degree just because they can over the INTERNET. Once medical school starts, you will be busy enough not to care about the little stuff. I am not saying that there aren't any obstacles but I think they aren't as bad as people make them out to be on SDN. It doesn't really help if you keep being paranoid about people discriminating against you. Personally, if I were a DO, I wouldn't even apply to those residencies that are known to discriminate against my degree. It's masochistic to pick hostile environments over ones that welcome and value your worth. Thousands of DO students graduate every year, if they are doing fine then you should be too.

My sister graduated from medical school with 150k in debt. My debt load will be around 280k once I graduated. I am thinking about going into EM or Gas as well. So at the of the day, I probably will be my sister's colleague doing the very same thing that she does but she's already 130k ahead of me. At family meetings, it's kinda hard for me to justify for that 130k difference in student loan. I guess the moral of the story is that you should go to the cheapest medical school that you can find because in the long run your financial wellbeing will far outweigh all these trivial things that you think of as a big deal right now.

Some people might say "but your experience is an anecdotal exception!" eh but still I think mine is still more representative of the real thing than what someone heard from his/her MD's MD friend. Sorry I don't have any stories about the 'DO struggle' that you are looking to read about but I guess I am just trying to give you the big picture, the stuff that matters, "the light at the end of the tunnel" kinda thing. And please don't even try to correct or refute me, I am not looking for an argument, I am just sharing what I know . Good luck with your career choice! There are more to life than picking MD vs DO.

I really think the issue here could be simply regional. Some areas really have many more DOs, so it's not as apparent, whereas some have very few, so they are still looked at questionably.

The truth is discrimination against DOs exists. Sylvanthus might have been bitter about his situation from the get go, but his experience is telling. As a DO applicant, he had to apply to twice as many ACGME residencies to get the same number of interviews (there are barely enough AOA residencies to cover 50% of graduating DOs, so most will have to apply ACGME as well). That experience, applying to double the number to get the same number of interviews, is what I've consistently heard, and honestly is most likely accurate. That said, Sylvanthus is also now in a residency he likes that was I believe near, if not at the top of his rank list. Does it matter for him now? Probably not. But I'm sure leading up to it was pretty annoying. That said, people going in to the profession need to know what they're getting into.

As far as the why would people apply to where they're discriminated against, for one thing most places don't have a big sign at the hospital saying "DOs NOT WELCOME", its just a rule that comes into play when selecting applicants to interview or to rank.

here is what frustrates me.

complaints about clinical rotations pop up fairly frequently here, even from the most established DO schools. Usually the poster will also comment to the effect that clinical education at DO schools is inferior/uneven/poorly standardized, whatever, compared to MD. But then another person from their school will fire back and say their experience was great. And another will tell them they should have taken more initiative to be taught/do procedures/write SOAP notes/whatever they complained about. And another will say the MD students they knew had similar complaints.

so back to what is frustrating- so many people condone the status quo (this as an example), when it is exactly these types of issues that have contributed to DO stigma/discrimination. why?

DO rotations seem to some degree to be like that by design. A lot of DO schools cater to primary care and rural/community areas, so they send people to doctor's offices and rural/community hospitals that tend not to have a ton of volume. Now because of this, they really have to send people all over (100 kids can't go to some private PCP's office). It's virtually impossible to standardize experiences when most people are going to different places, and with that you'll have variability in terms of rotation quality.

The thing is, DO schools don't seem to want to change that. It's the way things have been done, and honestly the hospital setting isn't really representative of how most physicians work. The main problem with that is that the bigger hospitals are still primarily where most GME is done, so it may be an issue in terms of audition rotations or what level you'll be at come internship time.

 

[razor]

I agree but I don't really think the extra class time thing can be considered a big deal at all. I don't think there is a single exam where I can say, "well, if I hadn't had OMM this week I'd have done so much better." I bet the amount of time spent in class varies more between individual schools than it does between DO schools as a whole vs MD schools as a whole.

bajastape's argument was that it cuts into free time, not that it cuts into his preclinical studies. I often dream of what it would be like to not have to stare at my fat OMM partner for 4 hours once a week...

 

[laboholic]

I have had ZERO problems as an osteopathic medical student. Thus far (currently MSIV), it has been my experience that a lot of DO students are their own obstacle by the mere fact that are expecting obstacles. As a general rule, if you are smart and hard working, you will be treated well. Yes, it is true that some people will treat you like an idiot.. However, these are the same people who shun allopathic students that didn't also go to the same ivy league program as they did.... actually, they probably have an inferiority complex themselves for whatever reason.
As for research opportunities mentioned earlier.... It is true that the average DO school has fewer research opportunities than the average MD school.... But the fact is that DO schools aren't focused on research... they are focused on primary care, just like a lot of smaller allopathic programs are. If you want to do research, apply to an allopathic university program for med school. Otherwise, if you are already going DO, apply to summer programs or year-out research programs at allopathic schools. There are many available and they absolutely do take DO students, I speak from experience.
Be proud that you have gotten to experience medicine as an osteopathic student, and make it your mission to show everyone that you are a talented future physician and not a title with excuses.

 

[sylvanthus]

I have had ZERO problems as an osteopathic medical student. Thus far (currently MSIV), it has been my experience that a lot of DO students are their own obstacle by the mere fact that are expecting obstacles. As a general rule, if you are smart and hard working, you will be treated well. Yes, it is true that some people will treat you like an idiot.. However, these are the same people who shun allopathic students that didn't also go to the same ivy league program as they did.... actually, they probably have an inferiority complex themselves for whatever reason.
As for research opportunities mentioned earlier.... It is true that the average DO school has fewer research opportunities than the average MD school.... But the fact is that DO schools aren't focused on research... they are focused on primary care, just like a lot of smaller allopathic programs are. If you want to do research, apply to an allopathic university program for med school. Otherwise, if you are already going DO, apply to summer programs or year-out research programs at allopathic schools. There are many available and they absolutely do take DO students, I speak from experience.
Be proud that you have gotten to experience medicine as an osteopathic student, and make it your mission to show everyone that you are a talented future physician and not a title with excuses.

To respond to the bolded above. You are a ms4 and have not begun the whole interview season, plus we have no idea what your specialty of choice is, this obviously matters. To respond to the 2nd bolded, I had very high boards (732 comlex 1, 688 comlex 2, 25o usmle step 1, 258 usmle step 2, 3rd in class, national leadership positions, etc etc) and STILL was flat out rejected by EM programs MERELY because I was a DO. This had nothing whatsoever to do with anything save for me being a DO.

Ill quote what I always quote and it still manages to get ignored for some reason. 68% of ACGME EM programs will interview and rank DO applications. meaning nearly 1/3 of MD EM programs will not interview nor rank a DO MERELY because he or she is a DO, regardless of boards, class rank, etc. Read this for yourselves and do not listen to me or anyones N=1 on here. Here are the actual facts below for each specialty.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

 

[hallowmann]

...http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

That survey is key. That said, I would like to see a newer one sometime soon. It seems they've done one every 2 years since 2008, so a new one should be due sometime soon.

 

[Bill Brasky]

To respond to the bolded above. You are a ms4 and have not begun the whole interview season, plus we have no idea what your specialty of choice is, this obviously matters. To respond to the 2nd bolded, I had very high boards (732 comlex 1, 688 comlex 2, 25o usmle step 1, 258 usmle step 2, 3rd in class, national leadership positions, etc etc) and STILL was flat out rejected by EM programs MERELY because I was a DO. This had nothing whatsoever to do with anything save for me being a DO.

Ill quote what I always quote and it still manages to get ignored for some reason. 68% of ACGME EM programs will interview and rank DO applications. meaning nearly 1/3 of MD EM programs will not interview nor rank a DO MERELY because he or she is a DO, regardless of boards, class rank, etc. Read this for yourselves and do not listen to me or anyones N=1 on here. Here are the actual facts below for each specialty.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

Were you told specifically that you weren't being considered because you're a DO graduate during the application process, then? I'm curious about how we can tell what programs are and aren't going to consider us seriously.

 

[Dharma]

Yeah I have a feeling most of these DOs don't suck simply by the way it was stated. Pretty sure the cousin is just talking out of her duodenum.

^ someone's taking anatomy!!! ah trietz!

 

[sylvanthus]

Were you told specifically that you weren't being considered because you're a DO graduate during the application process, then? I'm curious about how we can tell what programs are and aren't going to consider us seriously.

No, few programs are going to come out and say they won't take DOs. Best way to look is to see how many DOs they have in their program. But, there are exceptions to this. A friend of mine this last year was the first DO taken at HCMC in minneapolis. So, honestly, the best bet is to just go overboard with applying. The general rule of thumb for EM, for instance, is to apply to about 30 ish programs if you have a decent application. Id double that as a DO.

 

[IH8ColdWeath3r]

No, few programs are going to come out and say they won't take DOs. Best way to look is to see how many DOs they have in their program. But, there are exceptions to this. A friend of mine this last year was the first DO taken at HCMC in minneapolis. So, honestly, the best bet is to just go overboard with applying. The general rule of thumb for EM, for instance, is to apply to about 30 ish programs if you have a decent application. Id double that as a DO.

Wholly S***. You're stats were insane. This is a little disconcerting because I am interested in EM and don't even come close to the number you put up.

 

[DopaDO]

Wholly S***. You're stats were insane. This is a little disconcerting because I am interested in EM and don't even come close to the number you put up.

I have a friend who had a below average Step 1, around average Step 2 who matched EM last year. She matched her first choice - a fantastic high mid tier program. She had around 30 interviews including top places (Cleveland clinic). I'm not saying that sylvanthus is lying bc clearly he's not. Everyone has their own experience. One of the reasons my friend matched well and was highly desired was because she did an away at a program that wrote her an incredible letter both in content and by person (chair wrote it). I'm guilty of this too but people on this forum freak out way too much about numbers. While Step 1 and Step 2 are important, they are really far from the whole app. They are mainly used as a cut off after the cut off they really don't matter. Letters, research, etc are far more important (once you hit the step cut off).

PS: Not saying it isn't harder to match as a DO, bc it probably is... But it's not anywhere near as hard as people on this forum want you to believe.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

I have a friend who had a below average Step 1, around average Step 2 who matched EM last year. She matched her first choice - a fantastic high mid tier program. She had around 30 interviews including top places (Cleveland clinic). I'm not saying that sylvanthus is lying bc clearly he's not. Everyone has their own experience. One of the reasons my friend matched well and was highly desired was because she did an away at a program that wrote her an incredible letter both in content and by person (chair wrote it). I'm guilty of this too but people on this forum freak out way too much about numbers. While Step 1 and Step 2 are important, they are really far from the whole app. They are mainly used as a cut off after the cut off they really don't matter. Letters, research, etc are far more important (once you hit the step cut off).

PS: Not saying it isn't harder to match as a DO, bc it probably is... But it's not anywhere near as hard as people on this forum want you to believe.

Soon you'll have people reply to your post and say how your opinion doesn't matter because you haven't gone through the match process yet.

But if you were agreeing with the negativity, very few people will call you out on it. That's how users on SDN roll.

Oh, and if you happen to match really good in the future, contradicting the exaggerated negativity, people will just say you're only a n=1.

 

[DopaDO]

Soon you'll have people reply to your post and say how your opinion doesn't matter because you haven't gone through the match process yet.

But if you were agreeing with the negativity, very few people will call you out on it. That's how users on SDN roll.

Oh, and if you happen to match really good in the future, contradicting the exaggerated negativity, people will just say you're only a n=1.

For the record I am an MS-4 with decent stats applying to a very competitive MD surgical subspecialty (rather not say what) and I already have a few interviews. Ive spoken with numerous PDs and ppl that actually know what they are talking about. I'm not in the wrong here.

 

[Dr. Zombie]

For the record I am an MS-4 with decent stats applying to a very competitive MD surgical subspecialty (rather not say what) and I already have a few interviews. Ive spoken with numerous PDs and ppl that actually know what they are talking about. I'm not in the wrong here.

I was siding with you

 

[DopaDO]

I was siding with you

Oh I know. I was just pre-emptively trying to answer the questions you said people will ask (I agree those questions will be asked).

 

[hallowmann]

Guys, sylvanthus, as far as I can tell isn't saying matching anything is impossible as a DO. What he is saying is that if you want a good shot in a specialty you like, you will likely have to apply to twice as many ACGME programs as an MD might.

Honestly, we should take that advice. It doesn't mean we need to be bitter or scared, but it means we should be broad with our residency apps. I don't want to see DOs not matching, and too many people I know talk about a applying to barely any programs. Reach out more. Don't wait until later in the process when you don't have enough interviews. It's much better to choose to decline interviews than realize you don't have enough to guarantee a match, and rush to add programs later in the fall.

 

[BestDoctorEver]

If you want to be a physician first and foremost, it won't be a problem...

 

[user3]

Ill quote what I always quote and it still manages to get ignored for some reason. 68% of ACGME EM programs will interview and rank DO applications. meaning nearly 1/3 of MD EM programs will not interview nor rank a DO MERELY because he or she is a DO, regardless of boards, class rank, etc. Read this for yourselves and do not listen to me or anyones N=1 on here. Here are the actual facts below for each specialty.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

yikes

 

[hallowmann]

yikes

Is this a surprise? This survey has been talked about many times on here, and I remember looking through it before I even applied.

Like I said though, I would like to see the new 2014. The 2012 one was the first time the PD survey asked about whether programs would consider other applicants, so it's only a one time snapshot of PD attitudes towards DOs.

EDIT: they just published the new one:
http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/09/PD-Survey-Report-2014.pdf

 

[235009]

For the record I am an MS-4 with decent stats applying to a very competitive MD surgical subspecialty (rather not say what) and I already have a few interviews. Ive spoken with numerous PDs and ppl that actually know what they are talking about. I'm not in the wrong here.

So....urology

Otherwise you miraculously got interviews before submitting your application

 

[laboholic]

To respond to the bolded above. You are a ms4 and have not begun the whole interview season, plus we have no idea what your specialty of choice is, this obviously matters. To respond to the 2nd bolded, I had very high boards (732 comlex 1, 688 comlex 2, 25o usmle step 1, 258 usmle step 2, 3rd in class, national leadership positions, etc etc) and STILL was flat out rejected by EM programs MERELY because I was a DO. This had nothing whatsoever to do with anything save for me being a DO.

Ill quote what I always quote and it still manages to get ignored for some reason. 68% of ACGME EM programs will interview and rank DO applications. meaning nearly 1/3 of MD EM programs will not interview nor rank a DO MERELY because he or she is a DO, regardless of boards, class rank, etc. Read this for yourselves and do not listen to me or anyones N=1 on here. Here are the actual facts below for each specialty.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/programresultsbyspecialty2012.pdf

How do you know that the reason you were rejected was because you are a DO? Did they say that to you? Maybe your personal statement was bad, or maybe you came across as being smug. Maybe your medical school has a poor reputation and the programs you applied to got burnt in the past and didn't want to take a chance with you?
Anyways, I don't entirely disagree with you that there is discrimination, and maybe even a small amount of "DO discrimination" among some select sub-specialties... but I don't think that it is what you think. As said before, I'm sure students from certain unnamed allopathic institutions are probably discriminated against as well. What we really should be asking is the following: If your osteopathic institution suddenly changed to an allopathic institution but retained its original reputation regarding the quality of resident physician that it generates, would you be treated any differently as an applicant?
Neither you or I will never win this argument because there is simply no hard data.

Per my original comment: I was just giving my opinion which is based on quite a lot of exposure to allopathic schools. For example: I have given oral research presentations at Mayo Clinic, the American College of Surgeons National Meeting among others. I have gotten a research grant from the American Medical Association. I was accepted into a medical student research fellowship in a national year-out program that is only offered at 10 allopathic universities...among my colleagues were students from Harvard, Duke, UNC, Yale, etc. I not a test-taking genius as I have very ordinary board scores; I just consider myself ambitious and dedicated. Not once have I felt like I was treated differently because I was a DO, and I am pretty confident that if I were discriminated against I would not have been awarded the previously mentioned honors.

Furthermore, I may be an MSIV now but I started medical school long before you did. I have friends and former classmates who are now attending physicians/faculty, so I know a little about what matters in the selection process. I do know my specialty of interest and I intend on matching at a competitive allopathic institution (*not because I discriminate against osteopathic residencies, but because allopathic is a better fit for my research interests).

...Just trying to give some positive input among the overrepresented negative positions that tend to appear on message boards.

 

[cliquesh]

How do you know that the reason you were rejected was because you are a DO? Did they say that to you? Maybe your personal statement was bad, or maybe you came across as being smug. Maybe your medical school has a poor reputation and the programs you applied to got burnt in the past and didn't want to take a chance with you?
Anyways, I don't entirely disagree with you that there is discrimination, and maybe even a small amount of "DO discrimination" among some select sub-specialties... but I don't think that it is what you think. As said before, I'm sure students from certain unnamed allopathic institutions are probably discriminated against as well. What we really should be asking is the following: If your osteopathic institution suddenly changed to an allopathic institution but retained its original reputation regarding the quality of resident physician that it generates, would you be treated any differently as an applicant?
Neither you or I will never win this argument because there is simply no hard data.

Per my original comment: I was just giving my opinion which is based on quite a lot of exposure to allopathic schools. For example: I have given oral research presentations at Mayo Clinic, the American College of Surgeons National Meeting among others. I have gotten a research grant from the American Medical Association. I was accepted into a medical student research fellowship in a national year-out program that is only offered at 10 allopathic universities...among my colleagues were students from Harvard, Duke, UNC, Yale, etc. I not a test-taking genius as I have very ordinary board scores; I just consider myself ambitious and dedicated. Not once have I felt like I was treated differently because I was a DO, and I am pretty confident that if I were discriminated against I would not have been awarded the previously mentioned honors.

Furthermore, I may be an MSIV now but I started medical school long before you did. I have friends and former classmates who are now attending physicians/faculty, so I know a little about what matters in the selection process. I do know my specialty of interest and I intend on matching at a competitive allopathic institution (*not because I discriminate against osteopathic residencies, but because allopathic is a better fit for my research interests).

...Just trying to give some positive input among the overrepresented negative positions that tend to appear on message boards.

I know I wasn't ranked highly at a program in Chicago solely because I am a DO. One of my interviewers told me. He actually said he felt sorry for me because he thought I deserved to be there. I didn't rank the program that highly, so it didn't really matter.

 

[GUH]

How do you know that the reason you were rejected was because you are a DO? Did they say that to you? Maybe your personal statement was bad, or maybe you came across as being smug. Maybe your medical school has a poor reputation and the programs you applied to got burnt in the past and didn't want to take a chance with you?
Anyways, I don't entirely disagree with you that there is discrimination, and maybe even a small amount of "DO discrimination" among some select sub-specialties... but I don't think that it is what you think. As said before, I'm sure students from certain unnamed allopathic institutions are probably discriminated against as well. What we really should be asking is the following: If your osteopathic institution suddenly changed to an allopathic institution but retained its original reputation regarding the quality of resident physician that it generates, would you be treated any differently as an applicant?
Neither you or I will never win this argument because there is simply no hard data.

Per my original comment: I was just giving my opinion which is based on quite a lot of exposure to allopathic schools. For example: I have given oral research presentations at Mayo Clinic, the American College of Surgeons National Meeting among others. I have gotten a research grant from the American Medical Association. I was accepted into a medical student research fellowship in a national year-out program that is only offered at 10 allopathic universities...among my colleagues were students from Harvard, Duke, UNC, Yale, etc. I not a test-taking genius as I have very ordinary board scores; I just consider myself ambitious and dedicated. Not once have I felt like I was treated differently because I was a DO, and I am pretty confident that if I were discriminated against I would not have been awarded the previously mentioned honors.

Furthermore, I may be an MSIV now but I started medical school long before you did. I have friends and former classmates who are now attending physicians/faculty, so I know a little about what matters in the selection process. I do know my specialty of interest and I intend on matching at a competitive allopathic institution (*not because I discriminate against osteopathic residencies, but because allopathic is a better fit for my research interests).

...Just trying to give some positive input among the overrepresented negative positions that tend to appear on message boards.

Many programs self-report that they specifically reject DOs. That is not speculation. And it's not only in sub-specialties. It may happen more often in competitive specialties but it is not unheard of for programs in other fields to reject DOs for being DOs.

I'm glad that you seem to be doing well and that's awesome. You have to admit that most DO students don't have your background or Sylvanthus's board scores. Hell, most MD students don't. So it's not realistic to pretend we don't have a bit more of an uphill climb.

 

[sylvanthus]

How do you know that the reason you were rejected was because you are a DO? Did they say that to you? Maybe your personal statement was bad, or maybe you came across as being smug. Maybe your medical school has a poor reputation and the programs you applied to got burnt in the past and didn't want to take a chance with you?
Anyways, I don't entirely disagree with you that there is discrimination, and maybe even a small amount of "DO discrimination" among some select sub-specialties... but I don't think that it is what you think. As said before, I'm sure students from certain unnamed allopathic institutions are probably discriminated against as well. What we really should be asking is the following: If your osteopathic institution suddenly changed to an allopathic institution but retained its original reputation regarding the quality of resident physician that it generates, would you be treated any differently as an applicant?
Neither you or I will never win this argument because there is simply no hard data.

Per my original comment: I was just giving my opinion which is based on quite a lot of exposure to allopathic schools. For example: I have given oral research presentations at Mayo Clinic, the American College of Surgeons National Meeting among others. I have gotten a research grant from the American Medical Association. I was accepted into a medical student research fellowship in a national year-out program that is only offered at 10 allopathic universities...among my colleagues were students from Harvard, Duke, UNC, Yale, etc. I not a test-taking genius as I have very ordinary board scores; I just consider myself ambitious and dedicated. Not once have I felt like I was treated differently because I was a DO, and I am pretty confident that if I were discriminated against I would not have been awarded the previously mentioned honors.

Furthermore, I may be an MSIV now but I started medical school long before you did. I have friends and former classmates who are now attending physicians/faculty, so I know a little about what matters in the selection process. I do know my specialty of interest and I intend on matching at a competitive allopathic institution (*not because I discriminate against osteopathic residencies, but because allopathic is a better fit for my research interests).

...Just trying to give some positive input among the overrepresented negative positions that tend to appear on message boards.

Did you bother to take a look at the program directors survey?

 

[laboholic]

Did you bother to take a look at the program directors survey?

Yes I did actually... kindly point out to me where it says that they specifically didn't rank applicants because they were a DO.

 

[sylvanthus]

/facepalm

 

[DrBowtie]

I have a friend who had a below average Step 1, around average Step 2 who matched EM last year. She matched her first choice - a fantastic high mid tier program. She had around 30 interviews including top places (Cleveland clinic). I'm not saying that sylvanthus is lying bc clearly he's not. Everyone has their own experience. One of the reasons my friend matched well and was highly desired was because she did an away at a program that wrote her an incredible letter both in content and by person (chair wrote it). I'm guilty of this too but people on this forum freak out way too much about numbers. While Step 1 and Step 2 are important, they are really far from the whole app. They are mainly used as a cut off after the cut off they really don't matter. Letters, research, etc are far more important (once you hit the step cut off).

PS: Not saying it isn't harder to match as a DO, bc it probably is... But it's not anywhere near as hard as people on this forum want you to believe.

I don't think CC is top tier for EM. Do they even see that many undifferentiated patients? IIRC they arent a trauma center, Metrohealth is the main one. Fancy names dont translate across all specialties.

 

[laboholic]

/facepalm

For the sake of argument, I'm going to hold my ground here. The survey doesn't prove that programs are not taking DOs just because they are DOs. How many allopathic schools have never had a student represented at some of these big name institutions? Probably quite a few, but the question "how many students from allopathic school X are typically ranked?" was not posed.
Also, the survey uses the word "typically"... what does "typically" mean? According to the directors survey, FMGs are "typically" only ranked about the same percentage of times that DO students are (or less), but programs like Harvard Derm (which have likely never taken a DO) have FMGs. Maybe its because they take them sometimes, but not "typically"?
Like I said before. I know there is DO discrimination in certain specialties at certain institutions, but I feel like this forum constantly blows this out of proportion and using it as an excuse too much of the time. Believe me, my allopathic colleagues who have awesome board scores wish they had a chance of going Ivy League for residency... if only they had gone to Columbia med.

 

[laboholic]

... I typically do not get involved in studentdoctornetwork arguments.

 

[hallowmann]

For the sake of argument, I'm going to hold my ground here. The survey doesn't prove that programs are not taking DOs just because they are DOs. How many allopathic schools have never had a student represented at some of these big name institutions? Probably quite a few, but the question "how many students from allopathic school X are typically ranked?" was not posed.
Also, the survey uses the word "typically"... what does "typically" mean? According to the directors survey, FMGs are "typically" only ranked about the same percentage of times that DO students are (or less), but programs like Harvard Derm (which have likely never taken a DO) have FMGs. Maybe its because they take them sometimes, but not "typically"?
Like I said before. I know there is DO discrimination in certain specialties at certain institutions, but I feel like this forum constantly blows this out of proportion and using it as an excuse too much of the time. Believe me, my allopathic colleagues who have awesome board scores wish they had a chance of going Ivy League for residency... if only they had gone to Columbia med.

I get what you're trying to say, I really do, but you're pushing it a bit far. Even if they meant "typically" and not "never", it still describes a tendency to not consider DO applicants for interviews and ranking simply because they are DO applicants. I don't think anyone is saying that rare superstars never get interviewed and ranked, but we're looking at an overall trend, and the trend is that if 71% of a big sample of ACGME PDs said they typically consider DO applicants, that means 29% typically don't. That's more than 0-1%, it's practically 1/3.

Now I know sometimes people really emphasize DO discrimination, and I don't always think it's productive or reasonable. That said, it's also not reasonable to be unaware of it or pretend it's smaller than it is. Like I said, it shouldn't make us bitter, scared, or ashamed, but it should make us take extra steps to be prepared.

The truth is that there are many ACGME PDs that won't look at a DO's app simply because they're a DO. Again, this isn't something to get discouraged about, it just is the way things are.

I'm glad to be a DO student. I like my school, I like the curriculum, I even like most of OMT, and you better believe I'm going to be proud to wear that "D.O." on my chest. As DO students we don't need to let that knowledge of how some PDs are discourage us from reaching for the programs we want. We just need to do so either with a longer app list and/or a backup just in case (really almost everyone should do this).