Official Diploma Mill List

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EquateThis

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A clear tier system is forming. Don't worry, you won't have to make a list, the market will for you.

Personally, I don't trust any school that's younger than I am.
 
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Equate are we including schools that don't have ACPE accreditation yet? if so I think Roosevelt University in Chicago should be there. (I dpn't think they even have a nursing program let alone any type of medical school). They are trying to enroll their first class and they are getting a visit from ACPE this fall.

Hmm, what do you guys mean when you say a tier system is forming? Are you saying that only people who graduate with good grades from these "top tier" schools will be offered residencies and well-paying jobs?

I'm only familiar with d'youville's questionable pharmacy program (Commercials for Pharm.D???? Give me a break!!!)

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (2)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (1)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (1)
Roosevelt University(1)
 
EquateThis said:
LIST

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (2)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (1)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (1)
Roosevelt University (1)
NEUCOM (1)
Click to expand...

Concordia University
Appalachian College of Pharmacy
 
Calling them diploma mills is hyperbole. The students still go through the education and still have to pass the NAPLEX. They are legally legitimate schools...unlike real diploma mills. They are just going to destroy the profession due to the creation of a surplus. They are predatory institutions. It's a problem with the entire system. So don't call them "diploma mills". Nobody will take you seriously. What you want to do is start a two or three tiered system. For years, I've had such a system that we've shared on here legit (like Pitt, Rutgers, Ohio State, WVU...), quesitonable, but legit (FAMU, Xavier), and just flat out scary (Appalachia, Cal Northern, Dyouville). I'm thinking about adding a tier between 1 and 2 for the new schools that appear legit like Jefferson, South Florida, and Marshall. Maybe..."neophyte and potentially legit"...hell, I don't know.

Here in WV...I can tell you right now it would clearly be 4 tiers if all 4 proposed schools open. WVU way above the rest. Marshall below them once they get established...Charleston below them (their people have really underwhelmed me on rotations and in the real world)...and that technical college in Huntington that is trying to open up is in a pit of darkness with D'Youville. Hell...below even that...it's HICP levels of scary.

After deliberation with myself...we'll say:
Tier 1 - Legit, established schools
Tier 2 - New schools with potential/underperforming old schools
Tier 3 - The new schools with no major medical academic relationship, but legitimate accreditation candidacy
Tier X - HICP

Interestingly, this may be the next bubble that pops. The education bubble. The cost of education has outpaced inflation for decades...and its getting to the point where the amount of personal debt that is created isn't sustainable.
 
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You want to know what's f'd up. My school that is now charging close to 40,000 per year tuition only, sends me mail to donate money about 4 times a year.
The funny thing is when they send out the yearly report you will see alumni that graduated in the 80s and 90s giving money and then 2006 and up no one is donating anything. :D
 
best post I have a read in a while.

What bothers me the most is that schools charge full tuition during 4th year rotations when we aren't even in lecture halls but giving back to the school/community

WVUPharm2007 said:
Calling them diploma mills is hyperbole. The students still go through the education and still have to pass the NAPLEX. They are legally legitimate schools...unlike real diploma mills. They are just going to destroy the profession due to the creation of a surplus. They are predatory institutions. It's a problem with the entire system. So don't call them "diploma mills". Nobody will take you seriously. What you want to do is start a two or three tiered system. For years, I've had such a system that we've shared on here legit (like Pitt, Rutgers, Ohio State, WVU...), quesitonable, but legit (FAMU, Xavier), and just flat out scary (Appalachia, Cal Northern, Dyouville). I'm thinking about adding a tier between 1 and 2 for the new schools that appear legit like Jefferson, South Florida, and Marshall. Maybe..."neophyte and potentially legit"...hell, I don't know.

Here in WV...I can tell you right now it would clearly be 4 tiers if all 4 proposed schools open. WVU way above the rest. Marshall below them once they get established...Charleston below them (their people have really underwhelmed me on rotations and in the real world)...and that technical college in Huntington that is trying to open up is in a pit of darkness with D'Youville. Hell...below even that...it's HICP levels of scary.

After deliberation with myself...we'll say:
Tier 1 - Legit, established schools
Tier 2 - New schools with potential/underperforming old schools
Tier 3 - The new schools with no major medical academic relationship, but legitimate accreditation candidacy
Tier X - HICP

Interestingly, this may be the next bubble that pops. The education bubble. The cost of education has outpaced inflation for decades...and its getting to the point where the amount of personal debt that is created isn't sustainable.
Click to expand...
 
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koercive said:
best post I have a read in a while.

What bothers me the most is that schools charge full tuition during 4th year rotations when we aren't even in lecture halls but giving back to the school/community
Click to expand...


Do you know how much hospitals and sites charge to allow a student to do rotations there? As the IPPE requirements increase, this was named as the number one reason for tuition going up.

I don't know of a school that doesnt charge full tuition the final year (or even more because most start the full summer before). I wouldn't really associate that with a "diploma mill" only.
 
I agree with Mikey's notion of the tier system, versus calling these schools "diploma mills." You don't send them cash and get a license. Rather than listing schools as such in this thread, why don't you actually create a tier list for each state or something along those lines?

Otherwise, you're just going to see a list of new schools in each state and insult students attending those schools.

Although D'youville might be at the bottom of most lists regardless. :smuggrin:
 
I have an idea. Why don't we evaluate individual students and practitioners based on their knowledge and skills instead of getting hung up on where they graduated? I see no purpose to this list other than letting those students who got into schools that they perceive as "top tier" pat themselves on the back while looking down on everyone else. In the end, it's not where you went to school, it's what you know and (most importantly) how you apply that knowledge.
 
All4MyDaughter said:
I have an idea. Why don't we evaluate individual students and practitioners based on their knowledge and skills instead of getting hung up on where they graduated? I see no purpose to this list other than letting those students who got into schools that they perceive as "top tier" pat themselves on the back while looking down on everyone else. In the end, it's not where you went to school, it's what you know and (most importantly) how you apply that knowledge.
Click to expand...

YEAH THAT. dumbest thread ever. only for the purpose of being condescending toward others.
 
we are not evaluating the competency of pharmacist since naplex is a minimum competency to practice..and cmon how superior of education do u need to become a retail pharmacist.

diploma mill is any pharmacy school that opened past 10 years motivated by tuition profit.

not saying those grads are inferior.
 
and those handful of mofos laughing all the way to the bank with the tuition money will have forever destroyed our our already fragile profession tainted by mass retailers and chains.
 
Its Z said:
any pharmacy school that opened past 10 years motivated by tuition profit
Click to expand...

I think that's any school that opened in the last 10 years, then. All schools say they are motivated by the desire to train good pharmacists, address the (alleged) pharmacist shortage, serve the community, etc etc. But no college/university would open a pharmacy school if it was going to lose money.
 
EquateThis said:
thanks!


LIST

D'Youville College of Pharmacy (2)
University of the Incarnate Word Feik School of Pharmacy (1)
College of Norte Dame School of Pharmacy (1)
Roosevelt University (1)
NEUCOM (1)
Concordia University (1)
Appalachian College of Pharmacy (1)
Click to expand...

Add PCOM in Ga

There is already a saturation in Georgia, yet that school still opens up acting like there is a shortage. :rolleyes: If PCOM is the only school you can get into then you shouldn't be in pharmacy. Hell, if the only schools you can get into are the candiate or pre candiate schools then you shouldn't be in pharmacy.
 
Quick recap:

This is thread #129 that is of the following basic premise:

People who are going to/graduated from the "established" schools (established meaning was around pre-2000):
"New schools are the suck"

People who are going to/graduated from the "new" schools:
"No they don't, it's not the school, there are good students and bad students at every school"
 
gotdrugs said:
Quick recap:

This is thread #129 that is of the following basic premise:

People who are going to/graduated from the "established" schools (established meaning was around pre-2000):
"New schools are the suck"

People who are going to/graduated from the "new" schools:
"No they don't, it's not the school, there are good students and bad students at every school"
Click to expand...

So I got accepted by the established school and rejected by the new school... what does that mean?
 
I am afraid there is no use in ranking schools into tiers. Those students who choose to go into pharmacy for that 6-digit salary will settle for any schools no matter what tier as long as they can earn a degree that will be recognized by an employer. And most retail chains will take students from a low-tier school as long as the students possess the basic IQ not to get the companies into legal troubles and bear the willingness to be sodomized in any degrading ways imaginable.
 
charfdorn said:
So I got accepted by the established school and rejected by the new school... what does that mean?
Click to expand...

That your GPA and PCAT score were so high that the new school assumed
a) That you had to have clearly forged them if you were considering their school
or
b) They knew that they wouldn't be able to challenge you

:smuggrin::smuggrin::smuggrin::smuggrin:
 
gotdrugs said:
Quick recap:

This is thread #129 that is of the following basic premise:

People who are going to/graduated from the "established" schools (established meaning was around pre-2000):
"New schools are the suck"

People who are going to/graduated from the "new" schools:
"No they don't, it's not the school, there are good students and bad students at every school"
Click to expand...

I think I'm one of the few, if not the ONLY person on this forum who has actually been admitted to and attended both a "Top 10" pharmacy school and a new, candidate status school. There is a post of mine in another thread that summarizes my thoughts on the differences between the two programs.

With that perspective, I truly believe that the type of practitioner one becomes depends much more on the PERSON and less on the school one attends. People can fail or be mediocre despite the BEST of circumstances. People can and do succeed despite less than ideal circumstances. We are intelligent professionals, not robotic, mindless products of our environment.
 
You think the OP is mean? You should hear what some of the deans say behind closed doors about these new schools...heh.

If they get their way, a tiered system is going to be created. Just like law when everyone and his brother opened a school. Try telling major law firms that the school doesn't matter. In the next decade or so, I have a feeling a system differentiating schools is going to be created. Just how it is. I liked it a lot better when every school was at least 50 years old and a PharmD was a PharmD...but that's changing.

And the truth is that there is a difference. But it's not with the didactic school crap. That's just powerpoint reading. It's with both the quality of kids (compare admission averages) and, more importantly, with the quality of rotations. I did 4 internal medicine rotations with professors at a major academic hospital. 4 months of hanging out on the floors and in units. 4 months of five 12 hour days a week. That's almost like doing a freaking residency. And that's because WVU has established and strong rotation offerings. Now compare that with some of the new schools - and the ones in my neck of the woods, anyway, just can't offer that. I remember getting a kid from one school (I won't name names) that was there in February and it was the first time they ever set foot in a hospital for a rotation. WTF? I can't and do not claim to know what it's like at these new, private schools in other parts of the country. For all I know, the ones on Texas and California are brilliant. But the ones around here just do not put out the same quality of graduates.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
And the truth is that there is a difference. But it's not with the didactic school crap. That's just powerpoint reading. It's with both the quality of kids (compare admission averages) and, more importantly, with the quality of rotations. I did 4 internal medicine rotations with professors at a major academic hospital. 4 months of hanging out on the floors and in units. 4 months of five 12 hour days a week. That's almost like doing a freaking residency. And that's because WVU has established and strong rotation offerings. Now compare that with some of the new schools - and the ones in my neck of the woods, anyway, just can't offer that. I remember getting a kid from one school (I won't name names) that was there in February and it was the first time they ever set foot in a hospital for a rotation. WTF? I can't and do not claim to know what it's like at these new, private schools in other parts of the country. For all I know, the ones on Texas and California are brilliant. But the ones around here just do not put out the same quality of graduates.
Click to expand...

I over heard my preceptors talking about how the new school in Georgia (PCOM) is basically planning on offering triple what UGA and Mercer are paying per student for a a 5-week rotation spot. It makes sense that if you're charging $30-40K/year of tuition, you would have the extra money for that. But I really don't see how established schools who charge ~5K/semester for tuition are going to compete with that. It's only going to make matters worse for UGA students. Our experiential program faculty has already sat us down and explained to us plenty of times how they are having trouble securing enough rotation spots. In fact, my current rotation has signs posted up around the pharmacy explaining to the the staff pharmacists that both UGA and mercer are having trouble finding enough rotation spots and to please try to put up with all the damn students using their computers.
 
ALL PHARMACY SCHOOLS ARE DIPLOMA MILLS! They are handing out Doctorate degrees to 23-24 year olds with no bachelor's degree, and have never worked in their lives. There are people at my school who will have a doctorate at 22 because of AP credit.
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
ALL PHARMACY SCHOOLS ARE DIPLOMA MILLS! They are handing out Doctorate degrees to 23-24 year olds with no bachelor's degree, and have never worked in their lives. There are people at my school who will have a doctorate at 22 because of AP credit.
Click to expand...

how the hell did they get their pharmd at age 22??!?!?! are they in a 3 year school or something?
 
p-rog said:
I over heard my preceptors talking about how the new school in Georgia (PCOM) is basically planning on offering triple what UGA and Mercer are paying per student for a a 5-week rotation spot. It makes sense that if you're charging $30-40K/year of tuition, you would have the extra money for that. But I really don't see how established schools who charge ~5K/semester for tuition are going to compete with that. It's only going to make matters worse for UGA students. Our experiential program faculty has already sat us down and explained to us plenty of times how they are having trouble securing enough rotation spots. In fact, my current rotation has signs posted up around the pharmacy explaining to the the staff pharmacists that both UGA and mercer are having trouble finding enough rotation spots and to please try to put up with all the damn students using their computers.
Click to expand...

If it gets that bad, then they will start raising tuition and buying out sites, too. Then we'll get this ******ed arms race going down and people everywhere will pay $60k a year for school. Gee, thanks new private schools.
 
pharmwannebe2 said:
how the hell did they get their pharmd at age 22??!?!?! are they in a 3 year school or something?
Click to expand...
Some high schools give college credit for biology, english, etc. They finished high school at 17, and were in pharmacy school at 18. I know a guy who graduated at 21 from South.
 
I don't know if my school pays for sites or not, but we have really good sites. I do know that the school puts their faculty members into local hospitals and other practice sites to work, at the school's expense. I'm really happy with my rotations and don't have any crappy ones. The majority of our sites are at a major academic medical center (Level 1 trauma center, cancer center, etc). We are the only pharmacy school in this city and only the 2nd in this state. No idea what other new schools do.

My cost to attend this private school is comparable to what I paid to attend the state school.
 
rofl, what is this list supposed to be, an elementary school playground club? "You cant be invitd becuz ur skool is NEW!" Time to grow up and stop inflating your own ego, people. If you like this idea, I bet you'd like to tell people about how you're in a 'doctorate' program too, oh mighty scholars. Believe it or not, new schools can open that just might turn out to be better than longer running programs. I'll be the first to say that most of the time that probably won't happen, but a little fresh blood never hurt. If these newer schools really do suck, NAPLEX scores will show it, among other things. Just do your research on a school before hand.

But D'Youville? Ack. I just moved out of Buffalo, and those commercials looked like the crappy college ads that come on during Maury. And UB is a great pharm school, with no need for any local competition.
 
so apteryx, which mill do you go to
 
Concordia has ads on the highways about their new pharmacy school in Milwaukee.

Chicago State is in danger of losing its regional accreditation. I wouldn't recommend that anyone attend that school until that mess is dealt with.
 
WVUPharm2007 said:
If it gets that bad, then they will start raising tuition and buying out sites, too. Then we'll get this ******ed arms race going down and people everywhere will pay $60k a year for school. Gee, thanks new private schools.
Click to expand...

I want to know where all of the P4 money goes. I'm a preceptor and we (the site, not me) get paid but it's 25-30% of what my students pay in tuition to state schools. WTF happens to the rest of that money?

Thus far the "diploma mills" have stayed out of my neck of the woods but they are creeping ever closer. I would not pay one red cent to a school that thinks they can charge full tuition to provide classes via satellite :thumbdown: Twice the students/tuition, half the faculty/salary - yipee!

I'm going to start a pharmacy school in my garage. Cheap tuition! Generous admissions!
 
I hate to cast stones being from a new school myself, however, we graduated our first class and are accredited now. I know a few students from undergrad who have applied to WSOP for the past two years and been declined. Both of them are now in the inaugural class at Dyouville. Just saying something about their admissions. Of course the first class you're in a rush to fill seats, but just seems a little fishy.

On the plus side for them, it seems that they must pay their faculty well, as I've heard they took some teachers from our school and UB. Only time will tell for quality of education.
 
spacecowgirl said:
I would not pay one red cent to a school that thinks they can charge full tuition to provide classes via satellite :thumbdown: Twice the students/tuition, half the faculty/salary - yipee!
Click to expand...

"Higher" education is big business right now. Anytime there is enormous deficit spending through the easy availability of debt, a bubble occurs. The student loan bubble is the next bubble to pop. A pharmacist can comfortably pay $120K in student loans, but an unemployed pharmacist can not. The same goes with unemployed teachers, nurses, etc... and any other programs that have popped up at every POS school that wants to suck up student loan money and strap their students with unmanageable debts.

People go back to school during hard economic times, in hopes that once they finish, there will be a job available for them. Since the recession, everyone and their parents are going back to school and the economy is not going to just create jobs for them because the degrees were created. Colleges are in a race to develop and suck in the loan money before the bubble bust and the loan defaulting begins. Much like the thousands of subdivisions that popped up over the last decade, this is all debt fueled expansion, and not directly related to the real need or value of the service.
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
"Higher" education is big business right now. Anytime there is enormous deficit spending through the easy availability of debt, a bubble occurs. The student loan bubble is the next bubble to pop. A pharmacist can comfortably pay $120K in student loans, but an unemployed pharmacist can not. The same goes with unemployed teachers, nurses, etc... and any other programs that have popped up at every POS school that wants to suck up student loan money and strap their students with unmanageable debts.

People go back to school during hard economic times, in hopes that once they finish, there will be a job available for them. Since the recession, everyone and their parents are going back to school and the economy is not going to just create jobs for them because the degrees were created. Colleges are in a race to develop and suck in the loan money before the bubble bust and the loan defaulting begins. Much like the thousands of subdivisions that popped up over the last decade, this is all debt fueled expansion, and not directly related to the real need or value of the service.
Click to expand...

:thumbup::thumbup::thumbup:
 
BavarianMWE46 said:
ALL PHARMACY SCHOOLS ARE DIPLOMA MILLS! They are handing out Doctorate degrees to 23-24 year olds with no bachelor's degree, and have never worked in their lives. There are people at my school who will have a doctorate at 22 because of AP credit.
Click to expand...


I agree. If they make tiers, I hope tier 1 schools require a bachelor's degree.

I know a bachelors degree doesn't mean anything but it is just the logical progression for a doctoral professional degree, just like most md and law degrees. You gotta do the time to earn the title. 21,22,23 year olds should not be drs unless they are Neal Patrick Harris... Of course!
 
museabuse said:
I agree. If they make tiers, I hope tier 1 schools require a bachelor's degree.

I know a bachelors degree doesn't mean anything but it is just the logical progression for a doctoral professional degree, just like most md and law degrees. You gotta do the time to earn the title. 21,22,23 year olds should not be drs unless they are Neal Patrick Harris... Of course!
Click to expand...

and james watson (had PhD at age 21) even though he's a giant ***hole.
 
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