Official NBME details from AAOMS

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bdbdent said:
Need some advice...

So I got a 69 on the May exam and am trying to decide whether or not to take it again. I know its a good score and it'll most likely be good enough to get me in, the general pattern has been that people taking it a second time see a solid 5-10 point increase in their score. I know if I put in about a months worth of studying I could bump up to around a 75. Is it worth it? Am I a masochist?

I'm just finishing up 2nd year btw.
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How long did you study for the May exam?

I guess you didn't read my previous post. Don't get cocky when considering a re-take. You have to keep in mind that the next exam is in 3 months+. When you say you think you think you should be able to see a 5-10 point increase with 1 month of studying then I assume you don't plan to maintain the knowledge that got you the 69. You will be disappointed in September if this is the case. Most people who re-took from September had at least 3 months on top of their previous studying for Sept. I wish I had motivated myself to study another month ahead of time but it's not so easy when you start getting into clinic during your 3rd year.

I believe a 69 is a solid first attempt and am not trying to discourage you from re-taking. It depends on how picky you are about a program and a lot has to do with what happens THIS cycle. We will get a much better picture of how the NBME factors when we get match results - assuming people are willing to share info. From the looks of match threads nowadays they are pretty slim compared to the ones I remember reading as an undergrad haha...

I believe a 69 will still be a "good" score next cycle. If you want to go to a top program or even if you are set on a 6 year program I would say another shot couldn't hurt but don't expect to jump from a 69 to an 80 with 1 month of studying .. after taking a 2 month break from the material. You will probably be wasting time you could be putting towards graduation.

Asking around I am hearing that mid 60's are actually pretty good (we all hear of high scores on SDN but that's the nature of this site - remember DAT?). A lot of the higher scores are coming from schools with a higher level of didactic teaching or combined medical school systems. If your school is more clinic oriented it will be a more uphill climb. It might be interesting to see how future dental school applicants interested in OMFS may start prioritizing certain dental schools more now and other dental schools may begin to lose reputation when their weak didactics start to show. The NBDE was easy to study for and get a 90+ ... this exam requires a lot of time and effort and if you don't go to a school that prepares you well or even supports you (mine didn't - am in trouble for clinic attendance) through this whole mess then the whole process is a really steep uphill climb.

Hope this helps.
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duckcommander said:
How long did you study for the May exam?

I guess you didn't read my previous post. Don't get cocky when considering a re-take. You have to keep in mind that the next exam is in 3 months+. When you say you think you think you should be able to see a 5-10 point increase with 1 month of studying then I assume you don't plan to maintain the knowledge that got you the 69. You will be disappointed in September if this is the case. Most people who re-took from September had at least 3 months on top of their previous studying for Sept. I wish I had motivated myself to study another month ahead of time but it's not so easy when you start getting into clinic during your 3rd year.

I believe a 69 is a solid first attempt and am not trying to discourage you from re-taking. It depends on how picky you are about a program and a lot has to do with what happens THIS cycle. We will get a much better picture of how the NBME factors when we get match results - assuming people are willing to share info. From the looks of match threads nowadays they are pretty slim compared to the ones I remember reading as an undergrad haha...

I believe a 69 will still be a "good" score next cycle. If you want to go to a top program or even if you are set on a 6 year program I would say another shot couldn't hurt but don't expect to jump from a 69 to an 80 with 1 month of studying .. after taking a 2 month break from the material. You will probably be wasting time you could be putting towards graduation.

Asking around I am hearing that mid 60's are actually pretty good (we all hear of high scores on SDN but that's the nature of this site - remember DAT?). A lot of the higher scores are coming from schools with a higher level of didactic teaching or combined medical school systems. If your school is more clinic oriented it will be a more uphill climb. It might be interesting to see how future dental school applicants interested in OMFS may start prioritizing certain dental schools more now and other dental schools may begin to lose reputation when their weak didactics start to show. The NBDE was easy to study for and get a 90+ ... this exam requires a lot of time and effort and if you don't go to a school that prepares you well or even supports you (mine didn't - am in trouble for clinic attendance) through this whole mess then the whole process is a really steep uphill climb.

Hope this helps.
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I agree that there is really no point taking the test over 65 (or even lower). There are only like 300 people or less taking the test per class, so even an average score should be enough to get in. Obviously if you want to go to some top program, then they might care. If you just want to do omfs, then it is pretty much take the test, and get in.
 
avangusva said:
We don't know, but tell her you got around the 90th percentile (depending on how high into the 70's you got). Congratulations!
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Thanks! So if I scored a 74, does that mean that I was in the top 25 - 35 people who took the test?!!! :)
 
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Assuming the distribution was normally distributed... but that's hard to tell based on the info provided.
 
alxspider said:
Thanks! So if I scored a 74, does that mean that I was in the top 25 - 35 people who took the test?!!! :)
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If I know 6 people who got above a 74 from 2 different schools ... it makes me think that something's wrong here with the stats? Unless I only know the smart people?
 
STANDARDOFCARE said:
I was never good at math but is there a way to combine the information from the first and second exam to get a percentile in context of all 550 scores? (300 sept 250 may)
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Not quite sure, 0230 here, can't sleep. However, you can decrease the number of unique scores as 55% were second timers.

As to the post above on my best guestimate is that the skew might be toward the lower end, at least the range is skewed that way based on the data we were sent today.
 
STANDARDOFCARE said:
If I know 6 people who got above a 74 from 2 different schools ... it makes me think that something's wrong here with the stats? Unless I only know the smart people?
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You could very well know only smart people. Obviously, it isn't a perfect distribution as nothing in life is. I am open ears to your interpretation.
 
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Toronto77 said:
You could very well know only smart people. Obviously, it isn't a perfect distribution as nothing in life is. I am open ears to your interpretation.
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I think it is close to a normal distribution, with a few very high scores and many scores around the 50's.
 
alxspider said:
I think it is close to a normal distribution, with a few very high scores and many scores around the 50's.
Click to expand...

One more thought. You are definitely >90 percentile in the combination of both tests as the first test had a lower mean.
 
I am interested what you guys think of this:

I got a similar score so I am also trying to see where I stand among the rest of the applicants this year. I don't think the stats are really in our favor if you remember that the means are artificially low due to people just taking the test knowing they have multiple future attempts. If we assume that the majority of the 55% of May test takers are 3rd year applicants we have to assume that the roughly ~100 other students who took the test were much less prepared than we were going into this test. On top of that - the mean this round was already higher than the September exam.

I am thinking that our percentiles are much more modest when compared against the actual pool of 3rd year OMFS applicants this cycle ... the percentile that actually matters. With scores in the 30's-50's pulling down the mean I think that the mean for applicants will probably be about 10 points higher...? Maybe more maybe less. However, I also think the spread of scores for applicants will be pretty tight. I think most competitive applicants will be in the 70's with a high 70 to 80 required to actually stand out a little and a 90 to really shine .. maybe comparable to having that perfect 99 on NBDE.

I don't know.. what do you guys think? I know a handful of first years who took the exam with very minimal studying and scored in the 40-50's. I also know that in my class all of our scores are really tight and nowhere near the range one might expect from the 28-92 or whatever stated.

If I were to just make a prediction I would say that there are a few smartasses who got 90's .. statistically probably 3 or so. I think there are a bunch of 80's from top applicants who worked hard and/or those who went to medical school integrated dental schools. And I think the mean stands to be around a 70 maybe std dev 10 or something.

I go to a pretty competitive school with a high rate of specializing and I think only two or three people out of over 10 who are applying are going in with something below 70. Maybe others with general knowledge of their class's general standing could provide additional insight into this and either support or refute (hopefully). I think my class averages may be on the higher end but I don't have much to compare to.

This calculation would put our mid 70's in the range of 65-70-ish percentile... or top 30% of applicants. And students getting an 80 would be top 15%... And a score of 85+ or so being in the top 5% of applicants.

Yeah after running theses hypothetical values through that stat site previously posted I think this is more representative of what we are up against. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also couple this with the fact that the "cutoff" for people deciding whether or not to re-take the exam this May was a score of ~65-70's on the Sept exam and I think our applicant pool will be flooded with 70's.
 
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STANDARDOFCARE said:
I am interested what you guys think of this:

I got a similar score so I am also trying to see where I stand among the rest of the applicants this year. I don't think the stats are really in our favor if you remember that the means are artificially low due to people just taking the test knowing they have multiple future attempts. If we assume that the majority of the 55% of May test takers are 3rd year applicants we have to assume that the roughly ~100 other students who took the test were much less prepared than we were going into this test. On top of that - the mean this round was already higher than the September exam.

I am thinking that our percentiles are much more modest when compared against the actual pool of 3rd year OMFS applicants this cycle ... the percentile that actually matters. With scores in the 30's-50's pulling down the mean I think that the mean for applicants will probably be about 10 points higher...? Maybe more maybe less. However, I also think the spread of scores for applicants will be pretty tight. I think most competitive applicants will be in the 70's with a high 70 to 80 required to actually stand out a little and a 90 to really shine .. maybe comparable to having that perfect 99 on NBDE.

I don't know.. what do you guys think? I know a handful of first years who took the exam with very minimal studying and scored in the 40-50's. I also know that in my class all of our scores are really tight and nowhere near the range one might expect from the 28-92 or whatever stated.

If I were to just make a prediction I would say that there are a few smartasses who got 90's .. statistically probably 3 or so. I think there are a bunch of 80's from top applicants who worked hard and/or those who went to medical school integrated dental schools. And I think the mean stands to be around a 70 maybe std dev 10 or something.

I go to a pretty competitive school with a high rate of specializing and I think only two or three people out of over 10 who are applying are going in with something below 70. Maybe others with general knowledge of their class's general standing could provide additional insight into this and either support or refute (hopefully). I think my class averages may be on the higher end but I don't have much to compare to.

This calculation would put our mid 70's in the range of 65-70-ish percentile... or top 30% of applicants. And students getting an 80 would be top 15%... And a score of 85+ or so being in the top 5% of applicants.

Yeah after running theses hypothetical values through that stat site previously posted I think this is more representative of what we are up against. Thoughts?

EDIT: Also couple this with the fact that the "cutoff" for people deciding whether or not to re-take the exam this May was a score of ~65-70's on the Sept exam and I think our applicant pool will be flooded with 70's.
Click to expand...

I think if you applied simple stats, you would find that what you are saying is ridiculous. If I am at the 90th percentile of all test takers with a score in the 70's, then there are only a handful of people 25-35 with a score in that range of ALL test takers (first and second years). If you were to remove the first years, this number would get even smaller. Using a normal distribution, a score in the 80's would put you in the top 10 people. The second years (i am one of them) in my class scored on par with the third years retaking the exam cause they knew how to approach the test. If you are going to stratify scores based on classes, you have to realize that the total number of applicants drops to like 200 or so per class. And even in this group, if you combined sept test takers, you will probably have maybe 70-80 people with scores from 65-79, 10-15 people in the 80's, and about 5 people with a 90+. I think this is probably a more realistic spread based on standard deviation percentages and the total number of test takers. Even if you factored skews in either direction, the number won't change much. If you are in the 70's, you are one of the most competetive applicants. You have to realize that a 65+ is a 90 and a 72+ is ABOVE a 97.
 
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I think I might weigh in here. I have made an excel doc that gives an idea of where you stand for the September and the May exams. I made this for personal use, but I though some of you might like to use it as well.

From what i see, I am thinking this is distribution is probably a little skewed to the left (negative skew). I could be wrong though :)
 

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Bereno said:
I think I might weigh in here. I have made an excel doc that gives an idea of where you stand for the September and the May exams. I made this for personal use, but I though some of you might like to use it as well.

From what i see, I am thinking this is distribution is probably a little skewed to the left (negative skew). I could be wrong though :)
Click to expand...

very nice Bereno.
 
Bereno said:
I think I might weigh in here. I have made an excel doc that gives an idea of where you stand for the September and the May exams. I made this for personal use, but I though some of you might like to use it as well.

From what i see, I am thinking this is distribution is probably a little skewed to the left (negative skew). I could be wrong though :)
Click to expand...

Thanks for the file! I think there were like 290 people in the Sept exam instead of 230, as listed in your document.

I still think there might be a right skew on the Sept exam with almost a normal distribution on the May one.
 
alxspider said:
Thanks for the file! I think there were like 290 people in the Sept exam instead of 230, as listed in your document.

I still think there might be a right skew on the Sept exam with almost a normal distribution on the May one.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I tried to find the proper number for that and found inconsistent values. I will look again tomorrow :)
 
Bereno said:
Yeah, I tried to find the proper number for that and found inconsistent values. I will look again tomorrow :)
Click to expand...

Bereno,

Great work! I had seen your stuff on the dental debt, etc a while back as well.

The May exam had 230 following the deadline when I contacted AAOMS of which 55% were retakers. I don't have confirmed data on the exam from last September but maybe somebody else do.

Again, nice job.
 
Toronto77 said:
Bereno,

Great work! I had seen your stuff on the dental debt, etc a while back as well.

The May exam had 230 following the deadline when I contacted AAOMS of which 55% were retakers. I don't have confirmed data on the exam from last September but maybe somebody else do.

Again, nice job.
Click to expand...

Thanks for the kind words! I plan on keeping this document updated over the next few tests until I take it in a year. Hopefully it will give an idea of what to expect for future applicants.

Also, if anyone does have the confirmed number for September, I would be very appreciative!
 
Bereno said:
Thanks for the kind words! I plan on keeping this document updated over the next few tests until I take it in a year. Hopefully it will give an idea of what to expect for future applicants.

Also, if anyone does have the confirmed number for September, I would be very appreciative!
Click to expand...

Maybe get in touch with Mary from AAOMS, they might be amenable to you making this kind of thing for data purposes.
 
The Anhedonia said:
you might even include your fancy sheet in the email so they see how well-made it is.
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Too late lol. I mentioned that I was compiling a sheet though, hopefully that will help the cause haha
 
So.. I am wondering what will happen with the September exam.. I'm guessing nobody really cares at this point?
 
STANDARDOFCARE said:
So.. I am wondering what will happen with the September exam.. I'm guessing nobody really cares at this point?
Click to expand...

It appears that there was not enough concern (read evidence) of cheating, so it appears they are going to stand.
 
alxspider said:
Thanks for the file! I think there were like 290 people in the Sept exam instead of 230, as listed in your document.

I still think there might be a right skew on the Sept exam with almost a normal distribution on the May one.
Click to expand...

Toronto77 said:
Bereno,

Great work! I had seen your stuff on the dental debt, etc a while back as well.

The May exam had 230 following the deadline when I contacted AAOMS of which 55% were retakers. I don't have confirmed data on the exam from last September but maybe somebody else do.

Again, nice job.
Click to expand...

Just as an update, Mary got back to me today with the official data (295 for Sept, and 240 for May). I have updated the file to include the proper data and notes along with it. Did anyone else see that the 2014 exam dates are going to be in Feb and Aug!?

Also, can the OP put the excel file in the first post? I think this might be annoying for people to hunt for should they want to use it. If not, I just might make my own thread and update it as the tests accumulate
 
The Anhedonia said:
why the F would you want to take the MCAT? that has zero application or utility when it comes to (1) the knowledge you've learned in dental school and (2) relevancy for OMS applications.

the point of this new exam is not an arbitrary hurdle but an accurate and calibrated measure of knowledge - the MCAT is not at all suitable for this in this context.
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Oddly enough, I believe that the 6-year OMS program at USC requires the MCAT for admission.
 
With the Sept 21st NBME looming-- I think it's fair to bump this thread. Anyone have NEW information on a "good" score?
 
With less than 30 days to go..how is everyone coming on their studying? Think any interview invites will happen before we submit the scores from this test?
 
Cowhorner said:
With less than 30 days to go..how is everyone coming on their studying? Think any interview invites will happen before we submit the scores from this test?
Click to expand...

Yes. Interview invites will happen. The use of the CBSE differs at each program. My home program (4 year-er) says they will hardly consider it and focus more on grades/class rank/OS involvement and interest. Some programs I externed at looked at my scores, rank, etc and said, "we want you to get XX on the CBSE to be considered a competitive applicant." Another program,6 year-er, said the medical school plans on using it to help determine an applicants competitiveness. Other programs have said, "Just get the average," or, "Just Pass[>65]." So, with that being said, schools who plan on relying on the CBSE to rank applicants may wait while others might not even care.

As far as studying goes, I still have years worth of medical knowledge to cram in 30 days.
 
MrRongeurs said:
Yes. Interview invites will happen. The use of the CBSE differs at each program. My home program (4 year-er) says they will hardly consider it and focus more on grades/class rank/OS involvement and interest. Some programs I externed at looked at my scores, rank, etc and said, "we want you to get XX on the CBSE to be considered a competitive applicant." Another program,6 year-er, said the medical school plans on using it to help determine an applicants competitiveness. Other programs have said, "Just get the average," or, "Just Pass[>65]." So, with that being said, schools who plan on relying on the CBSE to rank applicants may wait while others might not even care.

As far as studying goes, I still have years worth of medical knowledge to cram in 30 days.
Click to expand...

Can you tell the which programs said they will reply heavily on the CBSE and what the XX was?
 
MrRongeurs said:
Cook County. >70
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Not sure about this. Had a buddy who externed there who stated that they were looking for > 65 on the NBME. Anyways, this is pretty much hearsay until interviews are underway and applicants can talk to faculty face to face.

Side note: did Jacksonville contact you about an interview on the 21st?
 
Count Chokula said:
Not sure about this. Had a buddy who externed there who stated that they were looking for > 65 on the NBME. Anyways, this is pretty much hearsay until interviews are underway and applicants can talk to faculty face to face.

Side note: did Jacksonville contact you about an interview on the 21st?
Click to expand...

The >70 was direct from Dr Fung while I was externing there. He even mentioned that applicants with less than stellar class ranks [~ > top 40%] should shoot for an 80. He expects his residents to get a 65 if they want to moonlight during their second year.

Yes, Jacksonville sent me an email on Aug 21.
 
MrRongeurs said:
The >70 was direct from Dr Fung while I was externing there. He even mentioned that applicants with less than stellar class ranks [~ > top 40%] should shoot for an 80. He expects his residents to get a 65 if they want to moonlight during their second year.

Yes, Jacksonville sent me an email on Aug 21.
Click to expand...

Good info. Thanks.
 
MrRongeurs said:
Yes, Jacksonville sent me an email on Aug 21.
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Rongeur,

Congrats on the interview with Jacksonville. Over these nest few months hopefully all of us will be getting some good news as well.
 
Do we have information about minimums mentioned by other programs?

Cook County >65 - 70

What about other programs?
 
Oh haha that makes more sense .. thanks for clarifying
 
I'm thinking those programs are going to have to reconsider strongly if they think they're going to be seeing lots of 70+ scores.
 
I've never prepared for an exam like I did for this one. And I just feel so demoralized...I don't even know how I would've prepared differently...

I just have to conclude that I do not have the capacity to do well on that exam. To those who did well I'm truly envious of your abilities.
 
Not fun. Any ideas when we get our scores and how?
 
McKnightRider said:
I've never prepared for an exam like I did for this one. And I just feel so demoralized...I don't even know how I would've prepared differently...

I just have to conclude that I do not have the capacity to do well on that exam. To those who did well I'm truly envious of your abilities.
Click to expand...

I feel very much the same way. I took it last year and did alright but felt I could do better. So I studied more and finished a significantly greater portion of UWorld plus 2 NBMEs; I went in feeling quite confident and left feeling like I'd run naked backwards through a cornfield for 4 hours and 15 minutes.

avangusva said:
Not fun. Any ideas when we get our scores and how?
Click to expand...

Last year we got them in 5-6 days and this May I heard students received them 3-4 days afterward.
 
NoPresident said:
I feel very much the same way. I took it last year and did alright but felt I could do better. So I studied more and finished a significantly greater portion of UWorld plus 2 NBMEs; I went in feeling quite confident and left feeling like I'd run naked backwards through a cornfield for 4 hours and 15 minutes.

Last year we got them in 5-6 days and this May I heard students received them 3-4 days afterward.
Click to expand...


May 4 - test
May 9 - personal score report
May 20 - AAOMS mean, etc.

I felt similar to you when I left the exam. My score did correlate to the 2 or 3 test exams I did a couple weeks before the exam. In those last few weeks I made no improvement. Good luck to all those who took it today. It will be interesting to see the results come in so we have more data for comparison.
 
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Toronto77 said:
In May the results came out 16 days after the test. Test May 4, results May 20.

I felt similar to you when I left the exam. My score did correlate to the 2 or 3 test exams I did a couple weeks before the exam. In those last few weeks I made no improvement. Good luck to all those who took it today. It will be interesting to see the results come in so we have more data for comparison.
Click to expand...
Hmmm, I took the test today with a friend who took it May 5, 2013. He checked his email and got results the morning of the May 9th so I don't know about that crazy 2+ week waiting period you were subjected too. Moreover, I know for a fact that a lot of PDs are waiting on these results so I'm sure they'll be released as soon as possible.
 
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