Oh, the irony is just too rich...

Started by Dustbunny
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Dustbunny

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In the Spring of 2006, I was booted out of school because I made two "attempts" at a "professional" class. The first time I withdrew to lighten my courseload due to an unexpected illness that put me in the hospital for a week before 4 major exams.

The second time, I legitimately failed it. Thanks to a really crappy home life -- I was a commuter -- wherein my addict brother was kicked out of rehab and had no place to go, and my grandmother's SO of 20 years finally died. They both ended up parking their @sses at my mom's house right smack in the middle of the semester. My grandmother permanently, and my brother for about two months. (Was raised as an only child, so this was a HUGE adjustment, on top of the relative neediness of the two individuals in question, to give you an idea of the enormity of the change for me.) Couple this with my mom -- the only other person who lives here normally besides myself -- being in China 2 of the 4 months I'm in school leaving me to deal with these two people on my own.

Spending 3 hours a day commuting in gnarly traffic on top of this didn't help.

That's why I failed the second time 'round.

Anyways, after appealing the decision to Dean @sshat -- who denied me readmission to the program 🙂rolleyes🙂, I found myself wanting to go to med school instead. Hence my presence on SDN.

Fast forward from 2006 until this past Sunday. I meet up with a pharmacist who's also a professor at the same school. She's a friend of mine -- we met when she was an intern -- and she's telling me about a lecture she's giving on Tuesday. This past Tuesday. It's on MTM in general, and community pharmacy MTM specifically.

Oh fabulous, I say. I did a metric f*ckload of MTM in the latter half of 2006, in a community environment. I mean people making appointments to see me and everything. Hardcore medication and treatment plan reviews, therapy recommendations, interfacing with doctors and in some cases twisting arms to get them to do what I want. The whole nine yards. I learned a lot along the way both about medicine and pharmacy, but mostly about how to get doctors to do what I want. She asks me if I'd be willing to do this part of the lecture for her. I just start laughing. She's only done MTM in an institutional environment, but community MTM is a completely different animal.

I agreed.

So Tuesday, I find myself in front of a bunch of P1.95s (it's an accelerated, 2 year, 10 month program, and they're coming to the end of their first year) lecturing for 30 minutes or so about the ins and outs of effective MTM in a community pharmacy. Mostly nuance stuff, and about some of the roadblocks you'll encounter and how to overcome them, etc. Any idiot can make therapy recommendations, but getting these recommendations implemented requires a finer touch, especially in a non-institutional environment where prescribers are (rightfully) protective of their turf.

She invites me back to do some more lecturing, and also participate in grading some of the debates that they're going to have to do. It was implied that I will also help grade their final projects.

I had a blast doing it, and I look forward to going back and doing some more teaching.

But the irony of the whole thing is just too rich. And absolutely f'n hilarious by anyone's standard.
 
Cool... perhaps the p1.95s will be sucking up to you. Be kind to them.
 
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So, you got kicked out of the school that you are now teaching at? That sucks.
 
I'm confused. Were you booted out of pharmacy school? Also if you were booted out then why on earth were you reviewing patient charts and their medications and getting doctors "to do what you want." If you did fail out of pharmacy school then you certainly don't have the training or credentials to have people see you and you change their therapies (or recommend changes). Furthermore I certainly agree that "any idiot can make therapy recommendations" I see this all the time when 80 year old Ms. Smith says her friend told her to take this drug and yada yada. Just because someone can make the recommendation doesn't mean they should.

If you did in fact graduate and are a licensed pharmacist then Congrats and way to push through the adversities.

Clearly I'm confused by your story.
 
So what have you been doing since you were kicked out? Just working? Any plans of applying to other programs?
 
Ya, sorry for the confusion. I have been invited to teach at the school that booted me out. I did not finish, and I've been working and taking classes elsewhere.

Also if you were booted out then why on earth were you reviewing patient charts and their medications and getting doctors "to do what you want." If you did fail out of pharmacy school then you certainly don't have the training or credentials to have people see you and you change their therapies (or recommend changes).
I was kicked out on a technicality. And I certainly am qualified to do MTM. I did turn down cases I didn't feel comfortable with. Furthermore, I had the blessing of my PIC, his boss, and his boss's boss. They tried to get me to split my time between multiple locations, which was a nice thought, but just wasn't feasible given my work/class schedule in late 2006. FWIW, I'm not even supervised anymore when it comes to therapy recommendations. We would occasionally go over some things together -- it was actually a two-way exchange. I teach them things, and they teach me things. It's nice. (They=the pharmacists I work with.)

And obviously a few people think I'm qualified if I'm being asked to teach. :laugh:

I just don't look particularly good on paper if you're a bean-counter, which is what the Dean of the other campus turned into. I am teaching at another campus of the school that kicked me out. Just to clarify. And no I'm not faculty, I am an invited guest. I don't get paid.

I will be attending the school that I am teaching at either this fall or in the fall of 2008, which is a serious WTF when you think about it.

My blog has actually opened a lot of doors for me in more ways than I ever expected it would. Some of this stems from that.
 
So you are like the guy that wants to "fix my roof" for cash, but doesn't have a license. :scared:

:meanie:
 
Ya, sorry for the confusion. I have been invited to teach at the school that booted me out. I did not finish, and I've been working and taking classes elsewhere.

I was kicked out on a technicality. And I certainly am qualified to do MTM. I did turn down cases I didn't feel comfortable with. Furthermore, I had the blessing of my PIC, his boss, and his boss's boss. They tried to get me to split my time between multiple locations, which was a nice thought, but just wasn't feasible given my work/class schedule in late 2006. FWIW, I'm not even supervised anymore when it comes to therapy recommendations. We would occasionally go over some things together -- it was actually a two-way exchange. I teach them things, and they teach me things. It's nice. (They=the pharmacists I work with.)

And obviously a few people think I'm qualified if I'm being asked to teach. :laugh:

I just don't look particularly good on paper if you're a bean-counter, which is what the Dean of the other campus turned into. I am teaching at another campus of the school that kicked me out. Just to clarify. And no I'm not faculty, I am an invited guest. I don't get paid.

I will be attending the school that I am teaching at either this fall or in the fall of 2008, which is a serious WTF when you think about it.

My blog has actually opened a lot of doors for me in more ways than I ever expected it would. Some of this stems from that.

How would you be qualified if you don't have a license? If you were kicked out then you're not a licensed pharmacist. I don't know how on earth you can do MTM legally without being licensed. The MMA only mentions Licensed Pharmacists as being able to do MTM. It's no different than a physician practicing without a license. Sure you can do but you're not doing it legally. Like Forcedentry says it's like a non-licensed roofer wanting to fix your roof. There is a reason why there are laws in place. Now you very well could be good but you're still not licensed. If you were kicked out you would technically not be a licensed intern anymore either. I just think it sets up a huge liability. Furthermore, although your suggestions might be right, how is this going to look to a physician if he finds out you're not licensed? It's going to make them second guess who is actually calling them to change meds. These patients are coming to you with the assumption that you're a licensed professional. It just seems very misleading especially since you're calling the docs to change meds. I do find it ironic that someone would hire you to teach at the school that you were kicked out of. To me it just seems wrong to have students being taught pharmacy classes by someone who isn't even a licensed pharmacist.
 
If I were billing for MTM, then I'd have to be a licensed pharmacist. Though practically speaking, a pharmacist could be the one billing while delegating the work to an intern. (Interns in my area can do anything a pharmacist can do so long as they have the RPh's blessing.)

urthermore, although your suggestions might be right, how is this going to look to a physician if he finds out you're not licensed? It's going to make them second guess who is actually calling them to change meds. These patients are coming to you with the assumption that you're a licensed professional.
They know who I am and they know I'm not a pharmacist. I wasn't a mystery guest. They also know I know what I'm doing, as I've worked there for years.

It just seems very misleading especially since you're calling the docs to change meds.
I never encountered a doctor who was interested in my title. And I was thanked on countless occasions for my services. Sometimes even by doctors. (PCPs, btw, are more open to suggestions as a rule than specialists.)

I also never made a phonecall to change a medication in the MTM context. Asynchronous communication is more effective for non-urgent matters like these. That means faxing until there's a secure form of email or other electronic communication. (You might've learned something if you'd sat in on it. :meanie:)

I do find it ironic that someone would hire you to teach at the school that you were kicked out of. To me it just seems wrong to have students being taught pharmacy classes by someone who isn't even a licensed pharmacist.
I'm not being paid, therefore I haven't been "hired." I'm a guest lecturer. Surely you had those in school? If not, you missed out.

Frankly I'd rather learn from someone who's been there and done that than someone with a title but no experience. I don't care where information comes from -- if it's useful the content will stand on its own. If not, it won't.

The thrust of my lecture was how it's done in a practical (retail) environment which is completely different from how it's done in an institutional environment.

FWIW, I don't know of any pharmacies in my area actually billing or officially offering MTM services. I'd be interested to see how they're doing it, or if they're just doing it to get the extra pennies, since the amount you're reimbursed for the work involved is a pittance.
 
How would you be qualified if you don't have a license? If you were kicked out then you're not a licensed pharmacist. I don't know how on earth you can do MTM legally without being licensed. The MMA only mentions Licensed Pharmacists as being able to do MTM. It's no different than a physician practicing without a license. Sure you can do but you're not doing it legally. Like Forcedentry says it's like a non-licensed roofer wanting to fix your roof. There is a reason why there are laws in place. Now you very well could be good but you're still not licensed. If you were kicked out you would technically not be a licensed intern anymore either. I just think it sets up a huge liability. Furthermore, although your suggestions might be right, how is this going to look to a physician if he finds out you're not licensed? It's going to make them second guess who is actually calling them to change meds. These patients are coming to you with the assumption that you're a licensed professional. It just seems very misleading especially since you're calling the docs to change meds. I do find it ironic that someone would hire you to teach at the school that you were kicked out of. To me it just seems wrong to have students being taught pharmacy classes by someone who isn't even a licensed pharmacist.

Promise you this...if I found out UF was using non-licensed "guest lecturers" to provide me with my $11k/yr professional education, I would sue their ass for fraud and most likely punch you in the face. I don't give a **** if the instructor is "good" at what they do. Their lack of a license, and, more importantly, the fact they were kicked out of school could easily cause the credibility of my licensure to be questioned.
 
Promise you this...if I found out UF was using non-licensed "guest lecturers" to provide me with my $11k/yr professional education, I would sue their ass for fraud and most likely punch you in the face. I don't give a **** if the instructor is "good" at what they do. Their lack of a license, and, more importantly, the fact they were kicked out of school could easily cause the credibility of my licensure to be questioned.

No schpitt. There is something about this that just isn't right.
 
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If I were billing for MTM, then I'd have to be a licensed pharmacist. Though practically speaking, a pharmacist could be the one billing while delegating the work to an intern. (Interns in my area can do anything a pharmacist can do so long as they have the RPh's blessing.)

They know who I am and they know I'm not a pharmacist. I wasn't a mystery guest. They also know I know what I'm doing, as I've worked there for years.

I never encountered a doctor who was interested in my title. And I was thanked on countless occasions for my services. Sometimes even by doctors. (PCPs, btw, are more open to suggestions as a rule than specialists.)

I also never made a phonecall to change a medication in the MTM context. Asynchronous communication is more effective for non-urgent matters like these. That means faxing until there's a secure form of email or other electronic communication. (You might've learned something if you'd sat in on it. :meanie:)

I'm not being paid, therefore I haven't been "hired." I'm a guest lecturer. Surely you had those in school? If not, you missed out.

Frankly I'd rather learn from someone who's been there and done that than someone with a title but no experience. I don't care where information comes from -- if it's useful the content will stand on its own. If not, it won't.

The thrust of my lecture was how it's done in a practical (retail) environment which is completely different from how it's done in an institutional environment.

FWIW, I don't know of any pharmacies in my area actually billing or officially offering MTM services. I'd be interested to see how they're doing it, or if they're just doing it to get the extra pennies, since the amount you're reimbursed for the work involved is a pittance.

How are you still an intern if you got kicked out? Also, I understand you weren't billing them, that doesn't make it right. I certainly question the pharmacists judgment as well. Like I said, just because you claim to know what you're doing doesn't make it a legal. Do the pharmacists know you were kicked out? Also, at UF our guest lecturers were usually experts in their field (the ID pharmacist helped write the guidelines) and most of them were BCPS and all were licensed (some Dr's, some pharmacists). We never had a average joe who was an "expert" lecture. They were all licensed and qualified. I've been in no way judging you, I just know that if the board of pharmacy were to find this out there would be some hell to pay, which still is the point you don't get. It's not right and it's a question of licensure and qualifications. Just because you think you're qualified doesn't mean you are according to the board of pharmacy (A PharmD or a licensed intern STILL in school). Maybe the law is wacky where you are and they just keep your intern license active even though you're in not in pharmacy school currently, although I'd venture to say that they still think you're in school because I'm sure you didn't notify the board.
 
I would like to add that judging from DustBunny's location and descriptions, my guess is the school in question is MCPHS-Worcester (although DustBunny may have been asked to lecture at one of the other campuses). This same school also a few other threads on here about their shadyness. The most recent one is: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=380319. So, I agree that what's going on here is not right, but I am not terribly surprised. As a student of this poorly run school, I can definitely say I am wasting a good chunk of my >$30K/yr tuition.
 
I'm not really sure whats going on but in NY practicing pharmacy without a license is highly illegal. MTM=practicing pharmacy. It does not matter if you were not billing or not. A person can't do pro bono medical stuff without a license and nether can you. The whole thing sounds very sketchy.
 
I call BS on the the 'MTM expert' who failed because his/her personal life got in the way (Let me shed a tear for you, like you are the only person going to school that has it tough at home - difference is the rest of us continued to study and didn't fail).

I don't see any legitimate school allowing a flunkey to come back and lecture students. It they do, every student at that school should sue the crap out of it because the flunkey just totally devalued their education. I also think that school should have it's accredidation yanked because it is allowing flunkeys to teach.

I don't see it happening. This 'MTM expert' is full of it.
 
What would be truly ironic would be that if the school in question here suddenly became the subject of some intense inquiries because the OP, who has given enough details to be recognizable to people within that program, came in here bragging about getting over.

Now that would be rich......
 
Yeah.....I'm feeling about the same - the OP knows just enough to get into trouble.

If this is true (hard to believe), the real people at fault here are the supervising pharmacists. Wouldn't that state board have fun with those folks!

Oh & you get nailed for fraud in one profession, you're not likely to be admitted to another profession (all those pre-osteo posts) - called moral terpitude. But, go ahead & walk that tightrope - its done lots of times in health food stores - but, no one there is legitimately licensed - doesn't keep them from handing out lots & lots of bad advice.

I'm with Caverject though - my hand is raised!
 
No one is laughing with you on the richness of this "irony."

Not only did you get kicked out of school for poor academic performance, you got kicked out of a school that appears to have low ethical/academic standards.

It isn't a matter of "you're so bright you can teach at a university."
It's a matter of "they're so stupid, they let you."