OMFS Private Practice

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sevodes

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Anyone know if it makes it more difficult to find work as an associate if you only want to do dentoalveolar cases in private practive. In other words, are u expected to take facial trauma call, do orthognathic cases, etc. by individuals accepting associates into larger firms? Anyone have any experience with this or resources to use-other then AAOMS-when trying to attain a position. Anyone know what oms associates are asking for in salary or make with production right out of the gate?

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<----Grabs popcorn and finds warm spot on couch
 
flat4 said:
<----Grabs popcorn and finds warm spot on couch


BOOYAKASHA!
 
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sevodes said:
Anyone know if it makes it more difficult to find work as an associate if you only want to do dentoalveolar cases in private practive. In other words, are u expected to take facial trauma call, do orthognathic cases, etc. by individuals accepting associates into larger firms? Anyone have any experience with this or resources to use-other then AAOMS-when trying to attain a position. Anyone know what oms associates are asking for in salary or make with production right out of the gate?
You should probably call the program directors of all the programs you're interested in and ask them this question. They can be a great resource.
 
omfsStud said:
You should probably call the program directors of all the programs you're interested in and ask them this question. They can be a great resource.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: great IDEA, but only ask the program directors of where you want to be a resident that you only want to do dental alveolar surgery in private practice with no call :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I like this new stud guy, he's going to take some weight off my shoulders....
 
sevodes said:
Anyone know if it makes it more difficult to find work as an associate if you only want to do dentoalveolar cases in private practive. In other words, are u expected to take facial trauma call, do orthognathic cases, etc. by individuals accepting associates into larger firms? Anyone have any experience with this or resources to use-other then AAOMS-when trying to attain a position. Anyone know what oms associates are asking for in salary or make with production right out of the gate?

I heard about two recent grads in NY who work at a clinic that is straight EXT and make $250K.
 
esclavo said:
:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: great IDEA, but only ask the program directors of where you want to be a resident that you only want to do dental alveolar surgery in private practice with no call :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: I like this new stud guy, he's going to take some weight off my shoulders....

First of all I am a 3rd year OMFS resident. Second of all, you must either just have matched into a program or be a first year because you obviously have no idea about life after residency. If you think the $ is in facial trauma and orthognathic surgery then you are really in for a surprise. Perhaps you should bring this topic up with any of your attendings who are actually in private practice before you post such idiotic replies on this website. You also need to chill out that arrogant tone before I start pimping you online. I don't think you want everyone to see how little you truley know about your own profession.
 
sevodes said:
First of all I am a 3rd year OMFS resident. Second of all, you must either just have matched into a program or be a first year because you obviously have no idea about life after residency. If you think the $ is in facial trauma and orthognathic surgery then you are really in for a surprise. Perhaps you should bring this topic up with any of your attendings who are actually in private practice before you post such idiotic replies on this website. You also need to chill out that arrogant tone before I start pimping you online. I don't think you want everyone to see how little you truley know about your own profession.
Yeah, inter-residency battle! BTW, Esclavo is also a 3rd year resident! I would love you two to pimp one another (the street pimping, not OMFS pimping). Just let me know which street corner this will take place. I know this real nice "girl" who is willing to pay $0.25 for the both of ya! :laugh:
 
sevodes said:
First of all I am a 3rd year OMFS resident. Second of all, you must either just have matched into a program or be a first year because you obviously have no idea about life after residency. If you think the $ is in facial trauma and orthognathic surgery then you are really in for a surprise. Perhaps you should bring this topic up with any of your attendings who are actually in private practice before you post such idiotic replies on this website. You also need to chill out that arrogant tone before I start pimping you online. I don't think you want everyone to see how little you truley know about your own profession.

Now its more appropriate to say...

<----Grabs popcorn and finds warm spot on couch
 
sevodes said:
First of all I am a 3rd year OMFS resident. Second of all, you must either just have matched into a program or be a first year because you obviously have no idea about life after residency. If you think the $ is in facial trauma and orthognathic surgery then you are really in for a surprise. Perhaps you should bring this topic up with any of your attendings who are actually in private practice before you post such idiotic replies on this website. You also need to chill out that arrogant tone before I start pimping you online. I don't think you want everyone to see how little you truley know about your own profession.

First off, before you start calling Esclavo an idiot, you should re-evaluate your own question. The question is pretty idiotic, because the answer is a resounding YES.

I think you're catching a lot of flack on here because the question you asked makes you appear like a lazy bum who doesn't want to give back to his profession (trauma, orthognathics) and just wants to reap the rewards (high reimbursement rates for extractions, etc.).

My opinion - you should have gone into perio.
 
sevodes said:
First of all I am a 3rd year OMFS resident. Second of all, you must either just have matched into a program or be a first year because you obviously have no idea about life after residency. If you think the $ is in facial trauma and orthognathic surgery then you are really in for a surprise. Perhaps you should bring this topic up with any of your attendings who are actually in private practice before you post such idiotic replies on this website. You also need to chill out that arrogant tone before I start pimping you online. I don't think you want everyone to see how little you truley know about your own profession.
Here's my pimping question: Ditka vs. The Bears... BUT, The Bears are all mini-Ditkas??? :eek: :confused:
 
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6897729 said:
First off, before you start calling Esclavo an idiot, you should re-evaluate your own question. The question is pretty idiotic, because the answer is a resounding YES.

I think you're catching a lot of flack on here because the question you asked makes you appear like a lazy bum who doesn't want to give back to his profession (trauma, orthognathics) and just wants to reap the rewards (high reimbursement rates for extractions, etc.).

My opinion - you should have gone into perio.

That sounds like something a 4th year dental student would say. It sounds like you guys don't really know the answer to my question. You just replied "yes" to my question. Do you have something other then this online forum to base that answer on? Have you actually started searching for an associate spot? Do you know what insurance pays out on orthognathic surgery these days? IS THAT ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR PRACTICE RUNNING? Your opinion only matters if it actually worth something? I wish you all the best. It sounds like you are all very motivated.
 
sevodes said:
That sounds like something a 4th year dental student would say. It sounds like you guys don't really know the answer to my question. You just replied "yes" to my question. Do you have something other then this online forum to base that answer on? Have you actually started searching for an associate spot? Do you know what insurance pays out on orthognathic surgery these days? IS THAT ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR PRACTICE RUNNING? Your opinion only matters if it actually worth something? I wish you all the best. It sounds like you are all very motivated.


http://www.healthecareers.com/site_templates/AAOMS/index.asp?aff=AAOMS&SPLD=AAOMS

Here is a link to the AAOMS career line. It will give you all you need.
 
rrc said:
http://www.healthecareers.com/site_templates/AAOMS/index.asp?aff=AAOMS&SPLD=AAOMS

Here is a link to the AAOMS career line. It will give you all you need.

I thought sevodes was a dental student. Sorry to ruffle your feathers. Most of the people that view this forum aren't residents, they are future residents. Most of them will interview with people who practice full scope and are in academia. Most of these people in academia feel that T&T (tooth/titanium) oral surgeons, while being wealthy, are weenies. A third year resident can ask your question, but I have been trying to help the younglings not fall into this trap especially while thinking about the application process, interview, residency experience, and promoting the specialty. I look at the AAOMS carreer line weekly getting an idea of what is out there. RRC has given you a good lead. Also, you can contact OMS Exclusively which is a placement business that has its feelers all across the country. The lady that runs it is the wife of an OMS and she knows alot of insider stuff from the "new guy's" point of view. She can cut to the chase and tell you stuff like scope, call, etc....she found our chief a KILLER spot this next year... I blush to think about his contract....
 
Average salary after Res. should be at least 200K this could go up dramatically in the first year depending on your contracctual agreement.
I have been checking the AAOMS classified site for about two years now. I had just heard about OMS EXCLUSIVE. So its the wife of an OMS guy that runs it? Does she charge you or the practice she is recruiting surgeons for. Has anyone heard anything else about this company or any other recruiting firms. I basically had heard that sending your CV to all OMFS practices in the area you want to practice is another way to do this. Any thoughts? Well see you all later--enjoy your Sat. night if you are not getting raped by face call.
 
esclavo said:
... Most of these people in academia feel that T&T (tooth/titanium) oral surgeons, while being wealthy, are weenies.....
Because they are.
 
There's nothing wrong with being weenies! If you have an expensive wife and a bunch of other little weenies running around at your house then you probably would think twice about being a hero or a macho macho man!
 
sevodes said:
Do you know what insurance pays out on orthognathic surgery these days? IS THAT ENOUGH TO KEEP YOUR PRACTICE RUNNING?
Medicaid! You'd declare bankruptcy if you depend on orthognathic surgery referrals from orthodontists!

6897729 said:
I think you're catching a lot of flack on here because the question you asked makes you appear like a lazy bum who doesn't want to give back to his profession (trauma, orthognathics) and just wants to reap the rewards (high reimbursement rates for extractions, etc.).

My opinion - you should have gone into perio.
When your debts are up to your eye balls, your wife/girlfriend(s!) are nagging for quality times and materialistic things, the noble idea of "giving back" seems to take a back seat!

IMHO, there's nothing wrong with "giving back" to the goverment first, with interest! then "giving back" to society, our profession later...
 
lnn2 said:
... If you have an expensive wife and a bunch of other little weenies running around at your house then you probably would think twice about being a hero or a macho macho man!
I have all these things and I'm already looking for academic jobs. Even though I'll be poor by OMFS standards, academic guys will still make more money than 95% of the US population.

There's a bigger issue here. The private tooth/titanium guys have been developing a disturbing trend to avoid hospital call. The political ramifications of this are huge. We fought for decades to obtain hospital admitting privileges and operative respect from other surgical specialties who previously viewed us as mere tooth-pullers. Now we're trying to go back to those days.

We've all chosen to do what we're doing, and we're very fortunate to have choices. The choices these days tend to be more selfish. That's the difference between the pool of students to select from now and students 50 years ago. In the past, surgeons lived to work. Now they work to live. But it doesn't change the fact that you have to be a real pu$$y to sell out to the almighty dollar and not contribute back to the specialty that made you so prosperous.
 
toofache32 said:
I have all these things and I'm already looking for academic jobs. Even though I'll be poor by OMFS standards, academic guys will still make more money than 95% of the US population.

There's a bigger issue here. The private tooth/titanium guys have been developing a disturbing trend to avoid hospital call. The political ramifications of this are huge. We fought for decades to obtain hospital admitting privileges and operative respect from other surgical specialties who previously viewed us as mere tooth-pullers. Now we're trying to go back to those days.

We've all chosen to do what we're doing, and we're very fortunate to have choices. The choices these days tend to be more selfish. That's the difference between the pool of students to select from now and students 50 years ago. In the past, surgeons lived to work. Now they work to live. But it doesn't change the fact that you have to be a real pu$$y to sell out to the almighty dollar and not contribute back to the specialty that made you so prosperous.

Excellent points. I'd also like to say, to all the future members of the "tooth and titanium" club, that times are changing and the $$$ is certainly going to decrease over the next decade or so...At some point, there will be little difference between a tooth and titanium OMFS and a periodontist - you can bet on it. Let's see you guys try to fight that off with your #150s.
 
6897729 said:
Excellent points. I'd also like to say, to all the future members of the "tooth and titanium" club, that times are changing and the $$$ is certainly going to decrease over the next decade or so...At some point, there will be little difference between a tooth and titanium OMFS and a periodontist - you can bet on it. Let's see you guys try to fight that off with your #150s.
That's a pretty broad statement to make without any supporting information...
 
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OMFSCardsFan said:
That's a pretty broad statement to make without any supporting information...

Yes, you're right. So good of you to point that out, given that you've always provided evidence for your assertions.

Well, obviously what I said is conjecture, albeit strongly-worded conjecture. However, here's what I know to be true:

1. Perio programs are now teaching and preaching extractions and routine dentoalveolar surgery, partly because of the $$$, partly because everybody and their Esclavo will be placing implants in the future. Without implants, let's face it, the perio ship doesn't float.
2. AAOMS has comissioned a major third molar study, precisely because they want to show the public and dental community that they do all the research on third molars and are the most qualified to take them out. Given the plethora of research already existing on third molars, one would wonder why AAOMS would spend 1.5 million dollars on this, unless they were genuinely concerned about perio's encroachment.

I guess my point is this: if OMS abandons trauma, orthognathics, and craniofacial (i.e. the stuff that doesn't pay), then why even bother training to learn all of these things?

I'm certainly not the only one that feels this way. Check out Jim Hupp's editorial in February's Triple O or his editorial from a few months back entitled "Retreating to our cottages". You may not place much value in what I (a 4th year OMFS resident planning on academics) have to say, but surely Dr. Hupp knows a lot more about this than you, my dear OMFSCardsFan.
 
toofache32 said:
I have all these things and I'm already looking for academic jobs. Even though I'll be poor by OMFS standards, academic guys will still make more money than 95% of the US population.
My hat is off to ya! We need more people like you in this profession!

toofache32 said:
There's a bigger issue here. The private tooth/titanium guys have been developing a disturbing trend to avoid hospital call. The political ramifications of this are huge. We fought for decades to obtain hospital admitting privileges and operative respect from other surgical specialties who previously viewed us as mere tooth-pullers. Now we're trying to go back to those days.

We've all chosen to do what we're doing, and we're very fortunate to have choices. The choices these days tend to be more selfish. That's the difference between the pool of students to select from now and students 50 years ago. In the past, surgeons lived to work. Now they work to live. But it doesn't change the fact that you have to be a real pu$$y to sell out to the almighty dollar and not contribute back to the specialty that made you so prosperous.
Excellent point! I hate it when the ingnorance folks ask me "why do you call a dentist, oral surgeon...are they doctors (MDs)..." If I remember it correctly, there's a Seinfeld show in which he asked the same question, why do you call them Oral surgeon if all they're doing is pulling out teeth?"
I wouldn't spend another 4-6yrs postdoc just to pull out teeth. It'd be a waste of time, skill and intelllect. It's overkilled!
 
6897729 said:
Yes, you're right. So good of you to point that out, given that you've always provided evidence for your assertions.

Well, obviously what I said is conjecture, albeit strongly-worded conjecture. However, here's what I know to be true:

1. Perio programs are now teaching and preaching extractions and routine dentoalveolar surgery, partly because of the $$$, partly because everybody and their Esclavo will be placing implants in the future. Without implants, let's face it, the perio ship doesn't float.
2. AAOMS has comissioned a major third molar study, precisely because they want to show the public and dental community that they do all the research on third molars and are the most qualified to take them out. Given the plethora of research already existing on third molars, one would wonder why AAOMS would spend 1.5 million dollars on this, unless they were genuinely concerned about perio's encroachment.

I guess my point is this: if OMS abandons trauma, orthognathics, and craniofacial (i.e. the stuff that doesn't pay), then why even bother training to learn all of these things?

I'm certainly not the only one that feels this way. Check out Jim Hupp's editorial in February's Triple O or his editorial from a few months back entitled "Retreating to our cottages". You may not place much value in what I (a 4th year OMFS resident planning on academics) have to say, but surely Dr. Hupp knows a lot more about this than you, my dear OMFSCardsFan.


What about the lack of anesthesia training in Perio. Do you think that perio. programs will, in the future, attempt to incorporate a more significant anesthesia component into their res? Bottom line, you cannot legally use drugs like propofol and ketamine or gases like Sevo. w/o that training. Personally I cannot imagine running a productive outpatient clininc without GA.
 
6897729 said:
Excellent points. I'd also like to say, to all the future members of the "tooth and titanium" club, that times are changing and the $$$ is certainly going to decrease over the next decade or so...At some point, there will be little difference between a tooth and titanium OMFS and a periodontist - you can bet on it. Let's see you guys try to fight that off with your #150s.


Here is the dilema that i am hearing over and over from guys in private practice:
Trauma takes you away from your private practice patients. When you are spending 2-10 hours in the OR doing facial tauma cases ( or similar "non-paying" cases) you are missing out on that day's outpatient clinic. It is my opinion that you are doing these cases to be able to bring your "paying cases" to that hospital. Nothing else makes sense. Sure, you do have the occassional trauma patient that does have insurance and that is fine. What about the rest? The interesting thing is that in some hospitals, usually level 2 TS, plastics and ent have both pulled out of the facial trauma game because it disrupts their outpatient clinic flow. Anyone else know any resources for job hunting for OMFS associate spots (besides AAOMS and OMS exclus.)?
 
sevodes said:
What about the lack of anesthesia training in Perio. Do you think that perio. programs will, in the future, attempt to incorporate a more significant anesthesia component into their res? Bottom line, you cannot legally use drugs like propofol and ketamine or gases like Sevo. w/o that training. Personally I cannot imagine running a productive outpatient clininc without GA.

True, but many perio programs are training their residents in IV sedation. Now, you can argue that these perio residents aren't getting GA training, but if they can IV sed certificates, they'll be able to take a significant chunk out of the OMFS market.
 
6897729 said:
True, but many perio programs are training their residents in IV sedation. Now, you can argue that these perio residents aren't getting GA training, but if they can IV sed certificates, they'll be able to take a significant chunk out of the OMFS market.

I just cannot imagine taking FBI thirds out and not being able to use propofol. You think GP would actually refer to Periodontist for that type of procedure?
 
6897729 said:
True, but many perio programs are training their residents in IV sedation. Now, you can argue that these perio residents aren't getting GA training, but if they can IV sed certificates, they'll be able to take a significant chunk out of the OMFS market.


I agree, as shady and pathetic as it may be, they do train nowadays to basically do all the "bread and butter" oral surgery, and they get their sedation certificate doing like 20 sedations with only narcotics and benzo's. But i wonder how long their game will continue before one of them kills someone with sedation or makes then anoxic long enough so their patients eating through a straw for the rest of their life. Once that starts happening you'll see the legislature get involved like they did in florida when plastic surgeons were killing or debilitating patients doing their own sedations. They will make a law that only allows sedations in hospitals or by anesthatists or anesthesiologists. And hopefully they will spare the OMF's and still let us sedate in the clinic.


FYI, That is why you need the dental degree to sedate in your clinic down their and we (dual trained surgeons) can't practice OMFS under the MD only so we could avoid their rediculous test. You couldn't do the sedation for your extractions with just the MD without being in a hospital.
 
The periodontists at my program used to do an anesthesia rotation. Having almost killed several patients, they are now forever banned from the OR and forbidden to perform any type of sedation in their clinic.
 
6897729 said:
2. AAOMS has comissioned a major third molar study, precisely because they want to show the public and dental community that they do all the research on third molars and are the most qualified to take them out. Given the plethora of research already existing on third molars, one would wonder why AAOMS would spend 1.5 million dollars on this, unless they were genuinely concerned about perio's encroachment.

I was on a flight a few years ago and saw a long ad for "dental implants." The ad kept shouting "and then the ORAL SURGEON places the implant." At the end there was the AAOMS logo. I just thought dang, I guess the market is really competitive.

It seemed like the periodontists I have encountered in NYC are busy enough with bone grafts and gum surgeries and implants that they don't have to extract third molars to make ends meet. Although I have seen them suit up and turn the entire room sterile for extraction of a class III mobile tooth. Maybe the procedures in perio are a regional thing? More people in this area are willing to pay the money for the gum procedures?
 
You're talking about two distinctly different topics here:
1. Perio encroaching into OMS domain.
2. Lack of OMS involvement in academia.

6897729 said:
I'm certainly not the only one that feels this way. Check out Jim Hupp's editorial in February's Triple O or his editorial from a few months back entitled "Retreating to our cottages".

Dr. Hupp's article is more geared toward #2 above. He's commenting on how the private practice trend is going to reverse all the privileges that the OMSs of the past worked so hard to get. He's saying that when OMSs leave the hospital setting, we no longer are associated with the complex procedures that we fought so hard to get. Instead, OTOHNS and PRS become the sole providers of care in these situations. As time goes on, doctors, nurses, and hospital staff will start to forget that OMS ever had a place there. I didn't get the impression from the article that Dr. Hupp is more than minimally concerned with Perio's attempts to enter the world of impactions. He specifically mentions that impaction surgery is less likely to be encroached upon than other aspects of our specialty. It's a fact that implants are going to be placed by many other than OMS. This is because, in most situations, its a simple procedure. Even if implant surgery continues to spread amongst the specialties, we'll still be the go-to guys for complex cases.

6897729 said:
I'd also like to say, to all the future members of the "tooth and titanium" club, that times are changing and the $$$ is certainly going to decrease over the next decade or so...At some point, there will be little difference between a tooth and titanium OMFS and a periodontist...

1. Perio programs are now teaching and preaching extractions and routine dentoalveolar surgery, partly because of the $$$, partly because everybody and their Esclavo will be placing implants in the future. Without implants, let's face it, the perio ship doesn't float.
2. AAOMS has comissioned a major third molar study...one would wonder why AAOMS would spend 1.5 million dollars on this, unless they were genuinely concerned about perio's encroachment.
Getting the training is one thing, getting the patients is another. It doesn't matter how much training a periodontist gets in third molar impactions if no dentist will refer third molar cases to him/her. I'm not sure what you're trying to prove by saying "to all future members of the 'tooth and titanium' club..." Are you posing a threat, nicely saying "Eat it, b*tch!" to someone who has wronged you in some way (like the kid that beat you up repeatedly in fifth grade)? I don't know how criticizing private practice guys in this way makes the point below:

6897729 said:
I guess my point is this: if OMS abandons trauma, orthognathics, and craniofacial (i.e. the stuff that doesn't pay), then why even bother training to learn all of these things?
I'm in 100% agreement with you here. However, going into private practice doesn't mean giving all this up. For some, yes, but not for all. I certainly plan on going into private practice, but I don't plan on giving up the good stuff. I think that we've all got some responsibility to the profession and the public in general, but I don't think we have to be in an academic institution to serve this responsibility. When I start looking for associateships, I'll be looking for a practice with this attitude.
 
Rezdawg said:
Now its more appropriate to say...

<----Grabs popcorn and finds warm spot on couch


dude, i'm already on this couch... go sit on the other one. Put some pants on too!!! leave the popcorn though. :smuggrin:
 
rrc said:
The periodontists at my program used to do an anesthesia rotation. Having almost killed several patients, they are now forever banned from the OR and forbidden to perform any type of sedation in their clinic.

I had one oral surgery wannabe (perio resident) tell me that he knows periodontists in private practice who are using Diprivan illegally. Its "not that big of a deal because it such a short acting GENERAL ANESTHETIC". I was in the middle of a MAC with Prop and Remi in the OR at that time and found myself looking over my shoulder to make sure nobody was listening to our conversation. I was embarrassed that this dude was actually associated with my profession. This is the type of **** the general population (as well as ENT, Anesthesia, and Plastics) could use against our profession. I could just see the article in Time: "dentist kills patient using GA". I think it is a real problem being put in the same group as GPR grads, perio res., and other idiots we have IV sed. Lisc. Even though our lisc is GA, nobody seems to know this.
 
sevodes said:
I had one oral surgery wannabe (perio resident) tell me that he knows periodontists in private practice who are using Diprivan illegally. I think it is a real problem being put in the same group as GPR grads, perio res., and other idiots we have IV sed. Lisc. Even though our lisc is GA, nobody seems to know this.

"I know a guy, that knows a guy, that knows a general dentist that told him that an OMFS almost killed a guy doing a prophy".

I get tired of the same stuff over and over again. If you actually know a Periodontist that is illegally using "general anesthetic," report him and stop him from any future harm to his patients. If you do not know him personally, then stop the whole "90210/Melrose Place" rumor spreading crap.

I like OMFSCardsFans earlier response. If there are actually people out there oversteping there bounds (like a Periodontist doing FBI or an OS doing a ScRP), a prudent General Dentist will likely not refer to them, so you can probably chill. :cool:
 
Periogod said:
"I know a guy, that knows a guy, that knows a general dentist that told him that an OMFS almost killed a guy doing a prophy".

I get tired of the same stuff over and over again. If you actually know a Periodontist that is illegally using "general anesthetic," report him and stop him from any future harm to his patients. If you do not know him personally, then stop the whole "90210/Melrose Place" rumor spreading crap.

I like OMFSCardsFans earlier response. If there are actually people out there oversteping there bounds (like a Periodontist doing FBI or an OS doing a ScRP), a prudent General Dentist will likely not refer to them, so you can probably chill. :cool:

Look man, I am just telling people what a perio. resident told me. Besides, as an OMFS resident I don't have the time to chase down all you crazy "illegal" periodontists. If you are not actually involved in this type of practice then relax. If you are truley a Periogod then this should not make you so angry. By the way, ScRP and FBI? That is like putting a pimple and a melanoma in the same Dif. DX.
 
Periogod said:
"I know a guy, that knows a guy, that knows a general dentist that told him that an OMFS almost killed a guy doing a prophy".

I get tired.............................. :


Actually i think you got it wrong, the way i heard it, was a periodontist who killed the guy doing the prophy. you see the OMFS was too busy with his normal workload to have to resort to doing prophys.
 
sevodes said:
Look man, I am just telling people what a perio. resident told me. Besides, as an OMFS resident I don't have the time to chase down all you crazy "illegal" periodontists. If you are not actually involved in this type of practice then relax. If you are truley a Periogod then this should not make you so angry. By the way, ScRP and FBI? That is like putting a pimple and a melanoma in the same Dif. DX.

Sevodes - I am glad you are saving lives taking out all of those FBI 3rd molars. Give me a break!

Do you have time to chase down all of the "illegal" OMS? Oh yeah, your too busy being a resident. All professions have people who push the limits, practice substandard care, and have ship happens (including yours). So, before you start pointing fingers at others look at your own profession. I copied these articles from my malpractice carrier.

Article 1
Friday, May 23, 2003 [major northwest newspaper article]:

When [patient] awoke from dental surgery, his chin was numb.

Six years later, it's still numb.

Because of a misinterpreted notation on an X-ray, a [City] oral surgeon had drilled into [patient's] jaw, trying to reach a wisdom tooth that wasn't there.

"He kept going deeper and deeper until he finally clipped that nerve," said [patient's] attorney, [name].

On Thursday, the state Supreme Court upheld a ruling that the surgeon, [name], was negligent. [Patient] and his attorneys will collect $52,500 that a [City] jury awarded for the 1996 mistake.

"Mr. [patient] woke up after being rendered unconscious to find out that he had four holes in his mouth, and he knew he only had three wisdom teeth," said [attorney].

[Dentists'] defense of the mistake centered on a radiograph - an X-ray picture - provided by [patient's] regular dentist. The film included a mark in one corner, which [dentist] apparently interpreted as "LR," or "lower right."

Going by the X-ray, [dentist] began drilling toward what should have been an impacted wisdom tooth. But there was nothing there. He was drilling on the wrong side of [patient's] jaw.

"He interpreted the radiograph in a reasonable way, given the way it was labeled," said [dentists'] attorney, [name]. "The problem here was always with this radiograph."

[Dentists' attorney] had challenged the jury ruling, saying that the judge made it too easy for the jury to find negligence in the case. Under a legal shortcut called res ipsa loquitur ("the thing speaks for itself"), jurors can infer negligence in obvious cases where the thing causing the injury is under the control of a defendant. In this case, [patient's] attorney argued, the thing causing the damage was the drill.

[Dentists'] attorney argued, on the other hand, that the thing that led to the damage was actually the X-ray.

The nine justices sided with [patient].

"The role the X-ray played, if any, in the injury is unclear," Chief Justice [name] wrote. "What is clear is that it was the drill which was the direct and immediate cause of [patient's] injury, and that [dentist] had exclusive control over the drill."

[Dentist] referred questions about the case to his attorney.

[Patient's attorney] said that doctors say [patient's ] numbness will likely last the rest of his life. It hasn't affected his speech, but while eating, he worries constantly that a piece of food might be stuck on his chin.

"He wouldn't feel it," [patients' attorney] said.


Article 2
LARGE SOUTHERN CITY (AP) - A wrongful death lawsuit filed by a [City] family alleges that a dental clinic took advantage of low-income patients after their teenage son died the morning after he had his wisdom teeth pulled. The family of [victim], 16, said [dental clinic] used a "quick turnaround" scheme to maximize the number of patients and the amount of Medicaid payments.

The suit came days before a state cap on malpractice damages took effect. It seeks $10 million for wrongful death.

[Victim's] parents found him dead in his bed on Aug. 9. The County medical examiner has not determined a cause of death.

On Thursday, the family sued the dental clinic, charging that it negligently went through with the surgery despite warning signs that something was wrong.

Representatives of the clinic said that it's too early to conclude that the surgery caused [victim's] death and that they stand by their procedures.

"Like the family, we want to understand how this tragedy happened and are awaiting that determination," the clinic's founders, said in a statement. "We continue to have great faith and confidence in the professionalism and commitment that our dentists and employees show our patients."

[Victim] would have been a junior at [name] High School this year. The brawny 6-foot-1, 347-pound defensive tackle hoped to play for the University of Florida and maybe even in the NFL.

According to family members, the teen's parents took him to the clinic to get his wisdom teeth pulled on the advice of the family orthodontist. They said they were alarmed that the dentist, [name], recorded victim's blood pressure as 155 over 43. A typical blood pressure reading for people his age is 120 over 80.

"I doubt that's an accurate blood pressure," said [dentist], an oral surgeon and president of the County Dental Society. "That should have been retaken and verified ... I think their blood pressure cuff was off."

The [families'] lawsuit says the clinic should have delayed [victim's] surgery to make sure the reading was accurate and to check the teenager's physical health and medical history.

[Dental clinic] said [dentist], who is on administrative leave, is a qualified dentist.

[Mother] said when they returned home, she gave her son the prescribed painkillers and antibiotic, and he went to sleep. When she checked on him the next morning, he was dead.

"I have to adjust and change my cooking habits," she said in an article in Tuesday's editions of the [City] Morning News. "It's hard because I know I have to cut it down. But that's one of the things."

[Victim's] teammates at [high school] are dealing with the loss as they prepare for the new season. [High school] football coach [name] described [victim] as good-natured.

"In the coaching business and teaching business, you try to touch somebody's life," [coach] said. "He was the type of kid that touched your life and the lives of the people around him. We lost a player, but a mother lost her child. Football is not even important when it comes to life and death," he said.

Article 3
Two [name of town] dentists have been ordered to pay nearly $130,000 in fines for performing cosmetic plastic surgery without proper medical licenses, authorities said Wednesday. Michael [dentist 1] and David [dentist 2], both 46 and partners at [name] Facial and Oral Surgery, are licensed oral surgeons but received medical degrees from an Internet company. Such degrees are not valid in California, authorities said.

Prosecutors said the dentists performed eye-area procedures and nose jobs, which they were not legally allowed to do, on about five patients. Additionally, they misrepresented themselves as medical doctors in advertisements, a violation of the state's unfair competition laws, prosecutors said.

"They were holding themselves out as medical doctors in a number of ways -- in telephone books, in brochures in their offices," said Deputy Dist. Atty. [name].

[Dentist 1] and [dentist 2] agreed to the settlement, ending a civil case brought against them by the county. As part of the deal, the dentists have removed all medical doctor references from their advertising.
 
Mouthjaw said:
Sevodes - I am glad you are saving lives taking out all of those FBI 3rd molars. Give me a break!

Do you have time to chase down all of the "illegal" OMS? Oh yeah, your too busy being a resident. All professions have people who push the limits, practice substandard care, and have ship happens (including yours). So, before you start pointing fingers at others look at your own profession. I copied these articles from my malpractice carrier.

...
What city is that last one from?
 
Mouthjaw, what on earth do those articles have to do with what we're talking about. Are you trying to prove a point that periodontists should be doing OMFS work because an oral surgeon

1. got sued reading an xray wrong
2. got sued b/c he didn't verify a NIBP
3. got fined for false advertising.

Well, i guess i agree with number one and three above, number 2 is a little sketchy without an autopsy. I actually detest OMFS's who have internet/foreign medical degrees and try to use them illegally, so i'm right with ya there pal.

But i still don't know how this pertains to the topic at hand?
 
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north2southOMFS said:
I actually detest OMFS's who have internet/foreign medical degrees and try to use them illegally, so i'm right with ya there pal.

A certain faculty at a program in the northeast recieved his MD in antigua....pretty shady IMHO.
 
Doggie said:
A certain faculty at a program in the northeast recieved his MD in antigua....pretty shady IMHO.

If an oral surgeon revieves his/her medical degree from a foreign school, i think its alright to use the degree if they actually have a US license, which means after they got the foreign degree they came here, took all three medical step exams, then did an intern year so they could get a legal license. The douche bags i don't agree with are the ones who get like a "few month" degree in the carribean or an internet style degree and use it in their daily routine without an acutal license for it. They are and will continue to give all oral surgeons (4 and 6 year) alike a bad name and give us less credit with our medicine colleagues.


-N2S
 
north2southOMFS said:
If an oral surgeon revieves his/her medical degree from a foreign school, i think its alright to use the degree if they actually have a US license, which means after they got the foreign degree they came here, took all three medical step exams, then did an intern year so they could get a legal license. The douche bags i don't agree with are the ones who get like a "few month" degree in the carribean or an internet style degree and use it in their daily routine without an acutal license for it. They are and will continue to give all oral surgeons (4 and 6 year) alike a bad name and give us less credit with our medicine colleagues.


-N2S

Yup.....this faculty that I am referring to did exactly what you hated. shadyville
 
Did you notice that the letter written in this month's joms is somebody that did a foreign med school.
north2southOMFS said:
If an oral surgeon revieves his/her medical degree from a foreign school, i think its alright to use the degree if they actually have a US license, which means after they got the foreign degree they came here, took all three medical step exams, then did an intern year so they could get a legal license. The douche bags i don't agree with are the ones who get like a "few month" degree in the carribean or an internet style degree and use it in their daily routine without an acutal license for it. They are and will continue to give all oral surgeons (4 and 6 year) alike a bad name and give us less credit with our medicine colleagues.


-N2S
 
north2southOMFS said:
If an oral surgeon revieves his/her medical degree from a foreign school, i think its alright to use the degree if they actually have a US license, which means after they got the foreign degree they came here, took all three medical step exams, then did an intern year so they could get a legal license. The douche bags i don't agree with are the ones who get like a "few month" degree in the carribean or an internet style degree and use it in their daily routine without an acutal license for it. They are and will continue to give all oral surgeons (4 and 6 year) alike a bad name and give us less credit with our medicine colleagues.


-N2S


Don't most 6-year grads in the US effectifly recieve their med degrees in 24 months or so.. how long is the antigua program? Is it that big of a difference? What do you think about the MD-optional agreement OMS residency Seton hall has with one of the carribean med colleges?


Although.. I do agree with everything you've said. :thumbup:

Interestingly enough.. I have met a couple of the dual trained OMS guys who are from the UK and Australia. I believe in those countries they are actually required to have both degrees now anyway and they are also required to do the full 4 years of med school after dentistry before really begininig their surgery training. Which is pretty hardcore IMO.. What do you think about that? Some examples like that I can think of who work here in the US would be like Prof. Ord at Maryland

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/robert_a_ord.html

And Prof. Pogrel at UCSF

http://www.omfs.ucsf.edu/people/index.cfm/FullTime-M_Anthony_Pogrel_1.htm
 
OzDDS said:
Don't most 6-year grads in the US effectifly recieve their med degrees in 24 months or so.. how long is the antigua program? Is it that big of a difference? What do you think about the MD-optional agreement OMS residency Seton hall has with one of the carribean med colleges?

What about 1) US accredidation, 2) USMLE 1-3, 3) ACGME Shelf exams 4) PGY-1 after med school

MD-optional is sort of pointless. Very few surgeons would feel the need to do this AFTER completing residency. It won't improve your surgical skills only take away 3 years of income. However, I can see how someone in acedemics would want it because their practice is mostly hospital based and they're around other MDs all the time. To a lot of our unenightened MD colleagues, the MD puts you on their level. To others you will not be "a real doctor", no matter what degrees you have.
 
OzDDS said:
Don't most 6-year grads in the US effectifly recieve their med degrees in 24 months or so.. how long is the antigua program? Is it that big of a difference? What do you think about the MD-optional agreement OMS residency Seton hall has with one of the carribean med colleges?


Although.. I do agree with everything you've said. :thumbup:

Interestingly enough.. I have met a couple of the dual trained OMS guys who are from the UK and Australia. I believe in those countries they are actually required to have both degrees now anyway and they are also required to do the full 4 years of med school after dentistry before really begininig their surgery training. Which is pretty hardcore IMO.. What do you think about that? Some examples like that I can think of who work here in the US would be like Prof. Ord at Maryland

http://www.umm.edu/doctors/robert_a_ord.html

And Prof. Pogrel at UCSF

http://www.omfs.ucsf.edu/people/index.cfm/FullTime-M_Anthony_Pogrel_1.htm


Most of the European and Austrailian OMFS training requires both MD and DMD/DDS to be recognized as an OMFS consultant with FRCS (Maxfac) or FRACS (Maxfac) Fellow of the royal college of surgeons ,which is the board certification for OMFS. They are required to get their MDs but they don't do the full medical school curriculum, most of the time it's 3-4 years but remember medical schools outside the US usually between 6-8 years which includes a year of internship before you recieve your MD.
 
Doggie said:
A certain faculty at a program in the northeast recieved his MD in antigua....pretty shady IMHO.

Yeah, here's a list of these shady characters...

http://www.dentalwatch.org/edu/uhsa.html

I personally don't care where someone went to medical school, but you'd damn well better be licensed to practice medicine in the US if you want to advertise your MD. Having these jokers around just makes OMFS look bad.

Offshore medical degree - okay. Onshore medical licensure - you'd better believe it.
 
omfsres said:
What about 1) US accredidation, 2) USMLE 1-3, 3) ACGME Shelf exams 4) PGY-1 after med school.

Well.. I was writing that under the assumtion that you had your degrees licensed in the US if you were practicing here. incl. USMLE 1-3, ECMFG cert, ACGME PGY-1, NDEB 1-3, etc.

Guys like Pogrel and Ord I believe not only completed their degrees in the UK, but also most/all of their OMS training as well.
 
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