OMM at Harvard?!?!

[hotlikebutter]

is this true or not? my friend just told me that Harvard has or will start teaching a OMM component in their medical school.

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[DOctorJay]

is this true or not? my friend just told me that Harvard has or will start teaching a OMM component in their medical school.

Harvard recently had an OMM course for MDs put on by their DO PM&R staff. I believe about 50 physicians attended and the majority were MDs trying to learn some OMM. For specifics consult "The DO" magazine. It appeared to be a very positive experience and great way to get some recognition for OMM. I don't know of any plans to teach OMM to the medical students at Harvard though.

-J

 

[dr.z]

Harvard recently had an OMM course for MDs put on by their DO PM&R staff. I believe about 50 physicians attended and the majority were MDs trying to learn some OMM. For specifics consult "The DO" magazine. It appeared to be a very positive experience and great way to get some recognition for OMM. I don't know of any plans to teach OMM to the medical students at Harvard though.

-J

I don't know if they should really extend teaching to med students. This will make MDs much more like DOs.

 

[MsEvolution]

So would these MD's be licensed to practice OMM?? Or is it just a CME type of thing...

 

[Hernandez]

I don't know if they should really extend teaching to med students. This will make MDs much more like DOs.

so?


Your local friendly OSU-COM UAAO VP.....

 

[DOctorJay]

Remember, once you're licensed as a physician you have an unrestricted license to practice medicine. Now that doesn't mean an FP should be doing neurosurgery but you can get away with a lot, certainly MDs can get away with doing OMM if they want and have some kind of training.

Also, I have heard a lot of MD schools are considering teaching OMM especially if we can provide some solid evidence that it truly is efficacious in treating certain disease entities. Just look across the pond at some of the schools and you'll see that a lot of OMM related teaching goes on as they realize the benefits associated.

Could this be good for DOs? yes
Could this be bad for DOs? yes, but don't forget OMT isn't the only thing that sets us apart

Time will tell

-J

 

[Docgeorge]

Could this be bad for DOs? yes, but don't forget OMT isn't the only thing that sets us apart

Time will tell

-J

That is hard to back up. At the end of the day we practice EBM just like them the only thing that really does set us appart is OMT. My cousin (allo student)and I had a talk about this he approaches a GI pt just like I do except for the structural exam.

Teaching OMM to the MD's is a good thing, thats waht AT wanted to do in the first place.

 

[Coca Cola]

The AOA pres. spoke at our school today and said that it could be good or it could be bad. Time will tell. However, he did mention that the MDs wanted some sort of certificate for the completion of the training and the AOA said no way. It remains to be seen if someone could learn enough OMM to proficiently use it in one weekend or seminar.

Late
Cola

 

[Hernandez]

The AOA pres. spoke at our school today and said that it could be good or it could be bad. Time will tell. However, he did mention that the MDs wanted some sort of certificate for the completion of the training and the AOA said no way. It remains to be seen if someone could learn enough OMM to proficiently use it in one weekend or seminar.

Late
Cola

there is no way they could learn enough in a weekend or a seminar (IMHO), but we have an MD that teaches part of our OMM class here at OSU-COM, it is odd to have the rivial state medical school colors in our parking lot on tuesdays & wensdays

 

[docbill]

They can always come up to TOronto or Montreal and learn OMM and get a diploma of Osteopathy. They don't need AOA aproval.

I don't see what the fuss.. is. It is great that MD are trying new things. It will bring more credit to DOs and their profession.

The evolution of medicine. Long time ago they split... and in the future the two phil may merge... don't forget all the stuff that DO have taken from MDs. Why should our field be selective what we can take and what they can't.

 

[hotlikebutter]

They can always come up to TOronto or Montreal and learn OMM and get a diploma of Osteopathy. They don't need AOA aproval.

I don't see what the fuss.. is. It is great that MD are trying new things. It will bring more credit to DOs and their profession.

The evolution of medicine. Long time ago they split... and in the future the two phil may merge... don't forget all the stuff that DO have taken from MDs. Why should our field be selective what we can take and what they can't.

you stole the words right out of my mouth! no one owns knowledge, it should be used by all if it can benefit patients. the emergence of a stronger US medical profession is the only real risk of MD's using OMM. Also, if you think US medicine (DO and MD) are the only way to heal, you are missing alot! Alternative approaches will be incorporated into western medicine no doubt as we start realizing their potential.

 

[Dr JPH]

you stole the words right out of my mouth! no one owns knowledge, it should be used by all if it can benefit patients. the emergence of a stronger US medical profession is the only real risk of MD's using OMM. Also, if you think US medicine (DO and MD) are the only way to heal, you are missing alot! Alternative approaches will be incorporated into western medicine no doubt as we start realizing their potential.

Bravo. Well said.

You give me one good reason why teaching MDs manipulative therapy will be bad for DO's and I will give you 5 resons to refute it. I am in the unique position to see this first hand as an OMM Fellow.

First of all, I disagree with the term "OMM". It's not "osteopathic manipulative medicine", it's manual/manipulative therapy.

Many of the techniques have been practiced for years by practitioners other than DOs. Many were developed by PTs and chiropractors. Some by PhDs who simply had a unique interest in dynamic anatomy.

I don't know one good osteopath who thinks it an ill move to educate a non-DO or non-DO student about manipulative therapy.

We can't even get more than 50% of the DOs out there to use manipulation, why the hell are we so worried about all these MDs suddenly "finding the secret" and running with it? Please.

If you are worried about an MD learning manipulation in a weekend course and being better than you then #1 you are not spending enough time in OMM lab learning or #2 you're ignorant. Maybe both.

 

[PublicHealth]

is this true or not? my friend just told me that Harvard has or will start teaching a OMM component in their medical school.

It was a weekend seminar. This man coordinated it:

Darren C. Rosenberg, DO
Staff Physiatrist, Outpatient
Tel: 508-872-2200

Location of Practice: Spaulding-Framingham Outpatient Center
570 Worcester Road (Route 9)
Framingham, MA 01702

Clinical Background:
D.O. Degree: University of New England College of Osteopathic Medicine, 1995
Residency: Johns Hopkins University/Sinai Hospital, 1999 – Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation
Board Certified: Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation, 1999

Clinical/Research Interests: Musculoskeletal medicine, manual medicine,
sports medicine

 

[cooldreams]

seems interesting... they need a certificate to look like they are equal to DO's.... kinda sounds like what happend back in california, only in reverse... lets make them pay their 65 bucks for it...

 

[EMTLizzy]

Any kind of education for physicians is good. If a doctor wants to learn about an "alternative" therapy then more power to him/her. If a well-respected school held a seminar such as this one then I think it shows there isn't the kind of stigma we fear so much on SDN.

Teaching MD's about OMM is beneficial to DO's because it explains what it is we learn (or in my case, will be learning) through school. MD's and DO's work together well and are equals, but I wonder how many MD's have a good understanding of what the OMM component of our training is.

While I don't think it is a good idea for an MD to start using OMM after a one weekend seminar, it may educate them enough to suggest it to their patients as a treatment possibility and refer them to a DO who does OMM in their area.

If there is an MD who is interested in fully learning OMM, maybe some DO shools could offer an OMM fellowship for MD's (or DO's who want a refresher). The MD's could take an AOA-approved exam and have a more "official" certificate to hang on their wall. If MD's learn accupuncture, why can't they learn OMM from an actual medical school where they can get proper training?

 

[cooldreams]

Any kind of education for physicians is good. If a doctor wants to learn about an "alternative" therapy then more power to him/her. If a well-respected school held a seminar such as this one then I think it shows there isn't the kind of stigma we fear so much on SDN.

Teaching MD's about OMM is beneficial to DO's because it explains what it is we learn (or in my case, will be learning) through school. MD's and DO's work together well and are equals, but I wonder how many MD's have a good understanding of what the OMM component of our training is.

While I don't think it is a good idea for an MD to start using OMM after a one weekend seminar, it may educate them enough to suggest it to their patients as a treatment possibility and refer them to a DO who does OMM in their area.

If there is an MD who is interested in fully learning OMM, maybe some DO shools could offer an OMM fellowship for MD's (or DO's who want a refresher). The MD's could take an AOA-approved exam and have a more "official" certificate to hang on their wall. If MD's learn accupuncture, why can't they learn OMM from an actual medical school where they can get proper training?

sure... nothing wrong with them learning omm, on OUR terms if they want OUR certificate. a weekend seminar does not in any way compare to many years learning it - from day 1 as a ms1 to the last day of residency.

for them to request a certificate saying they are knowledgable in omm after a weekend is just ridiculing us.... saying that they are so good that they can learn in a weekend what takes us years to learn...

 

[Hernandez]

Any kind of education for physicians is good. If a doctor wants to learn about an "alternative" therapy then more power to him/her. If a well-respected school held a seminar such as this one then I think it shows there isn't the kind of stigma we fear so much on SDN.

Teaching MD's about OMM is beneficial to DO's because it explains what it is we learn (or in my case, will be learning) through school. MD's and DO's work together well and are equals, but I wonder how many MD's have a good understanding of what the OMM component of our training is.

While I don't think it is a good idea for an MD to start using OMM after a one weekend seminar, it may educate them enough to suggest it to their patients as a treatment possibility and refer them to a DO who does OMM in their area.

If there is an MD who is interested in fully learning OMM, maybe some DO shools could offer an OMM fellowship for MD's (or DO's who want a refresher). The MD's could take an AOA-approved exam and have a more "official" certificate to hang on their wall. If MD's learn accupuncture, why can't they learn OMM from an actual medical school where they can get proper training?

MD's can and do learn OMM well enough to use it, like I"ve said, an MD teaches OMM here at OSU-COM, but they will need to take the 40 hour seminiars and take the OMM classes at the school like our prof did.......

 

[Dr JPH]

While I don't think it is a good idea for an MD to start using OMM after a one weekend seminar, it may educate them enough to suggest it to their patients as a treatment possibility and refer them to a DO who does OMM in their area.

If you only knew how many things physicians do after only a weekend course in something...can be scary. I talked to a guy who uses sternocleidomastoid injection therapy for treating migranes. He learned it at a weekend course.

Manipulation therapy is not "ours". We dont own or have a patent on any techniques.

A certificate of completion would carry no merit. It is just something to put on a CV. I have been to tons of weekend courses for things and each time you bet you ass I get a certificate. Do you know what I can "do"? The certificates are used primarily as fodder for boosting a resume, not for framing and hanging on the wall.

MDs who take a weekend course and being treating patients will find very quickly that:

#1 it works...in which case they are likely to take more courses and continue their education

OR

#2 it doesnt work...in which case they will stop using it

Thats what I have done. I take a course and something works well for me...I follow up with it. If it doesnt, I put it in the "come back to that later" pile.

I cant understand why people who have never even used OMM in a clinical setting, or better yet, PREMEDS who havent even learned these skills feel so threatened.

I would just call it being naive, but you people are supposed to look at the big picture...after all, you want to be a doctor and help people, right?

Isnt that what its about? Altruism not selfishness?

If anyone wants a first hand idea of what using OMM is like, working with MDs and OMM and the real world of osteopathy, PM me and maybe I will write an article to get stickied on the forum.

So much confusion...pisses me off.

I have been gone from SDN too long. You all are loosing you way.

Yosh!! Where are you? Some rescue these people!

 

[Ypo.]

If you only knew how many things physicians do after only a weekend course in something...can be scary. I talked to a guy who uses sternocleidomastoid injection therapy for treating migranes. He learned it at a weekend course.

Manipulation therapy is not "ours". We dont own or have a patent on any techniques.

A certificate of completion would carry no merit. It is just something to put on a CV. I have been to tons of weekend courses for things and each time you bet you ass I get a certificate. Do you know what I can "do"? The certificates are used primarily as fodder for boosting a resume, not for framing and hanging on the wall.

MDs who take a weekend course and being treating patients will find very quickly that:

#1 it works...in which case they are likely to take more courses and continue their education

OR

#2 it doesnt work...in which case they will stop using it

Thats what I have done. I take a course and something works well for me...I follow up with it. If it doesnt, I put it in the "come back to that later" pile.

I cant understand why people who have never even used OMM in a clinical setting, or better yet, PREMEDS who havent even learned these skills feel so threatened.

I would just call it being naive, but you people are supposed to look at the big picture...after all, you want to be a doctor and help people, right?

Isnt that what its about? Altruism not selfishness?

If anyone wants a first hand idea of what using OMM is like, working with MDs and OMM and the real world of osteopathy, PM me and maybe I will write an article to get stickied on the forum.

So much confusion...pisses me off.

I have been gone from SDN too long. You all are loosing you way.

Yosh!! Where are you? Some rescue these people!

I agree. usually those weekend course are the first step. I'd like to point out that even many DOs don't feel comfortable using OMM after two years of practice. Its something you have to actively seek out and develop, it doesn't happen on its own.

So Harvard is recongnizing its usefulness? So what? I mean, its good that they are offering a class, but it doesn't change anything.

We don't OWN it, and yes, we should be happy that others are trying to learn it to help patients.

 

[Dr JPH]

I agree. usually those weekend course are the first step. I'd like to point out that even many DOs don't feel comfortable using OMM after two years of practice. Its something you have to actively seek out and develop, it doesn't happen on its own.

So Harvard is recongnizing its usefulness? So what? I mean, its good that they are offering a class, but it doesn't change anything.

We don't OWN it, and yes, we should be happy that others are trying to learn it to help patients.

Ahhh...someone sees the light.

 

[Creamfly]

If an MD uses OMM on a patient, can he or she charge for it? Can only a licensed individual in OMM actually charge or can anyone with a medical license charge? I have no idea and was wondering if it's even an issue?

 

[Docgeorge]

As a physican you can pretty much do anyting and bill for anything that has a code in Medicare Handbook. If you've been taught how to do it you can do it. The only hurtle is getting malpractice coverage or hospital privilidge. OMM is considered very low risk by ins companies thus that obsticle is really nonexistant and Hospital privilidge does'nt really matter for OMM.

 

[Creamfly]

Domo Arigato, Docgeorge

 

[Dr JPH]

As an MD you CANNOT bill for OMT codes. You will not be reimbursed for them. You need to be a DO in order to get paid for OMT through insurance companies...for now, at least.

There is talk that in the future, only DOs who complete either an OMM residency or a +1 year will be able to bill for OMT.

If an MD wants to charge cash for OMT, he can do it. I can charge for acupunture right now if I wanted to. After all, as a physician I can insert needles.

 

[Docgeorge]

You sure about that? Then why the heck are FP doing scopes and botox? Can someone for OSU find out is the MD who teaches part of your OMM bills ins for OMT she does on pts?

 

[cooldreams]

As an MD you CANNOT bill for OMT codes. You will not be reimbursed for them. You need to be a DO in order to get paid for OMT through insurance companies...for now, at least.

There is talk that in the future, only DOs who complete either an OMM residency or a +1 year will be able to bill for OMT.

If an MD wants to charge cash for OMT, he can do it. I can charge for acupunture right now if I wanted to. After all, as a physician I can insert needles.

yea that sounds wrong to me... it would basically mean that even though you are a doctor, your scope is STILL limited...

 

[Ypo.]

As an MD you CANNOT bill for OMT codes. You will not be reimbursed for them. You need to be a DO in order to get paid for OMT through insurance companies...for now, at least.

There is talk that in the future, only DOs who complete either an OMM residency or a +1 year will be able to bill for OMT.

If an MD wants to charge cash for OMT, he can do it. I can charge for acupunture right now if I wanted to. After all, as a physician I can insert needles.

I'm pretty sure this is incorrect, too.

 

[OSUdoc08]

You sure about that? Then why the heck are FP doing scopes and botox? Can someone for OSU find out is the MD who teaches part of your OMM bills ins for OMT she does on pts?

She does, but she didn't take a weekend class. She did the entire 4 years of OMM training in "real time" at our medical school.

The Harvard seminar was 3 days.

However, the fact that a top allopathic schools finds interest in OMM should be considered positive for our profession.

 

[Ypo.]

She does, but she didn't take a weekend class. She did the entire 4 years of OMM training in "real time" at our medical school.

The Harvard seminar was 3 days.

However, the fact that a top allopathic schools finds interest in OMM should be considered positive for our profession.

There are CME classes on OMM offered quite frequently in Michigan, and the people who go to them most often are MDs and PTs. They don't have to do 4 years of OMM classes to bill for OMM in their offices.

 

[Docgeorge]

Ok just talked to Dr. Boesler our Chair of OMM and he says MD's can bill for OMT.

 

[bones]

Ok just talked to Dr. Boesler our Chair of OMM and he says MD's can bill for OMT.

I am fairly sure this is correct, though I haven't seen it done. At the moment I believe any physician can bill for OMM regardless of training.

However, I have heard the same rumors as JP about only board certified OMM specialists (residency or +1 programs) coding for OMM in the future. This would make little sense since some of the best OMM docs out there are specialists in other fields- and there are already enough barriers to using OMM integratively in medicine. I have no idea if this will come to pass however, and at this point i would just regard this as a rumor.

If any of you have direct personal knowledge on the subject, could you fill us in?

 

[VALSALVA]

Just to add to the discussion...I know that there were OMM docs from KCOM teaching OMM to FP residents at Southern Illinois U last year. The doc that was heading that initiative went off to do another residency so I don't know if that's continuing. I had also heard that some folks at the Medical College of Wisconsin were very enthusiastic about learning OMM - which is one of the reasons why KCOM and MCW struck an OPTI deal.

 

[Buster Douglas]

So Harvard is recongnizing its usefulness? So what? I mean, its good that they are offering a class, but it doesn't change anything.

We don't OWN it, and yes, we should be happy that others are trying to learn it to help patients.

I completely disagree.

If Harvard wants to teach OMT to its students then they should make the switch, gain accreditation from the AOA, and start granting their students the DO degree.

Seriously... What's the point of the DO degree if MDs can bill for "OSTEOPATHIC Manipulative Treatment" and MD schools start teaching OMT as a course?

It's cool and all that MDs, PTs, and your mom recognize its utility, but as one of our OPP professors says, "Without Distinction = Extinction." Either OMT should only be billable by those with the DO degree or one of the two degrees should be completely done away with. I'm pretty sure MDs aren't allowed to bill for chiropractic techniques (even though DOs have hi-jacked some of those and called them their own ), so why should they be allowed to bill for osteopathic ones?

 

[Docgeorge]

I completely disagree.

If Harvard wants to teach OMT to its students then they should make the switch, gain accreditation from the AOA, and start granting their students the DO degree.

Seriously... What's the point of the DO degree if MDs can bill for "OSTEOPATHIC Manipulative Treatment" and MD schools start teaching OMT as a course?

It's cool and all that MDs, PTs, and your mom recognize its utility, but as one of our OPP professors says, "Without Distinction = Extinction." Either OMT should only be billable by those with the DO degree or one of the two degrees should be completely done away with. I'm pretty sure MDs aren't allowed to bill for chiropractic techniques (even though DOs have hi-jacked some of those and called them their own ), so why should they be allowed to bill for osteopathic ones?

By your logic then we really should'nt use any of the theraputic interventions that we did'nt come up with. We have evolved from the Still osteopaths to what we are today because we incorperated treantment modalities that benifted our patients. If one feels that OMT is efficasiouse and is a treatment modality that patients can benifit from then it should be taught to all those who want to learn.

If we were to make a move to eliminate one of the Physician degrees then it probablly be the DO degree that will go away and not the MD degree. Just a sheer numbers thing, there are much much more of them then there are of us. I really think what will hapen prob in the next 30-40 years is that the DO and MD degrees will be synonimus with MD degrees. Oh....wait a sec it's already like that. There is'nt a thing that I cant do that that an MD can and visa versa (esp if they take courses in OMM). The notion that we are some how distinctive out side the use OMM some thing that at this time just does'nt hold water for me. I dont know how that will change as I progress through the rest of my traing but as of now that how I feel.

One other thing that we have to keep in mind is that AT took OMM first to the Baxter School of Medicine in Ks before he set out to K'ville. He wanted to teach MD's OMM and have them use it as part of their practice. I really think that if he went about presenting his argument back in 1875 in the manner of Virchow,Morgagni, or even better Lister, they would have incorperated it into allopathic medicine. Instead what he did was go off on his own and start his own branch of medicine. It seems in my mind anyway, is that OMT is comming in to what AT wanted it to be when he developed it.

 

[tkim]

As an MD you CANNOT bill for OMT codes. You will not be reimbursed for them. You need to be a DO in order to get paid for OMT through insurance companies...for now, at least.

The November 2004 issue of "The D.O." magazine has an article about the Harvard OMM class, and the three-day class included information on how to "accurately code and bill for manual medicine treatment".

 

[spreebee]

I completely disagree.

If Harvard wants to teach OMT to its students then they should make the switch, gain accreditation from the AOA, and start granting their students the DO degree.

Seriously... What's the point of the DO degree if MDs can bill for "OSTEOPATHIC Manipulative Treatment" and MD schools start teaching OMT as a course?

It's cool and all that MDs, PTs, and your mom recognize its utility, but as one of our OPP professors says, "Without Distinction = Extinction." Either OMT should only be billable by those with the DO degree or one of the two degrees should be completely done away with. I'm pretty sure MDs aren't allowed to bill for chiropractic techniques (even though DOs have hi-jacked some of those and called them their own ), so why should they be allowed to bill for osteopathic ones?

Why can D.O. students do M.D. residencies?

 

[Bacchus]

Why can people not notice that a post is 5 years old?

 

[Dissected]

 

[KingstonPre]

Why can people not notice that a post is 5 years old?

+1

 

[Eilat87]

man this forum is bad, lol, this always seems to be happening. dead forum much?

 

[ShyRem]

Happens in pre-allo as well. And other forums.

 

[JaggerPlate]

man this forum is bad, lol, this always seems to be happening. dead forum much?

That doesn't even make sense. Someone obviously searched 'Harvard' in DO or something and this is what came up. It's not like 5 year old threads just sit at like the second page of the forum or something.