OMM Course

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but do they feel better than they would have if they'd gotten a massage instead? or a half hour counseling session? read your argument again and this time replace OMM with something totally out of left field. see if you end up convinced that "treatment x out of left field" is worthwhile when the most the person arguing for it can say is that in their experience some patients do say they feel better. when is this not true? with anything someone might try? maybe they're just trying to make you feel better since you're so enthusiastic about OMM? or is the entusiasm part of the skill that takes years to master?

I think you are missing his point. For the most part, patients are not just going to say it makes them feel better just because they want to please the physician. If what the patient is experiencing truly painful, they will express it before and after the treatment if the treatment truly did not benefit him. This isn't a comparison between OMM and other treatments that may or may not be applicable. He is simply stating his experiences with OMM and patient interaction.

Do you have any experience with OMM? Have you practiced it over an extended period of time or have witnessed OMM treatment being done more than just a few times? If you really don't have any experience with OMM I don't think you understand that you can't just learn it over a week and become a "master" at it. It takes practice in regards to your palpation skills on different patients with different bodies. To become good at OMM is not as simple as memorizing information and being able to spit it out for exams.
 
I think you're missing the point.

Do you have any experience with bloodletting? Have you practiced it over an extended period of time or have witnessed bloodletting treatment being done more than just a few times? If you really don't have any experience with bloodletting I don't think you understand that you can't just learn it over a week and become a "master" at it. It takes practice in regards to your bloodletting skills on different patients with different bodies. To become good at bloodletting is not as simple as memorizing information and being able to spit it out for exams.

not very convincing is it?
 
but do they feel better than they would have if they'd gotten a massage instead? or a half hour counseling session? read your argument again and this time replace OMM with something totally out of left field. see if you end up convinced that "treatment x out of left field" is worthwhile when the most the person arguing for it can say is that in their experience some patients do say they feel better. when is this not true? with anything someone might try? maybe they're just trying to make you feel better since you're so enthusiastic about OMM? or is the entusiasm part of the skill that takes years to master?

Of course I can't make a blanket statement like that. You can't make a generalization like that anywhere in medicine. Every medicine/treatment/protocol doesn't work on every patient. You have to know when and where to use which tools. Similarly, OMM doesn't work on every patient. It might not even be indicated in every patient. It does work (in my experience) when patient's are selected appropriately.

Just to play devil's advocate, how "left field" is OMM? To know what is "left field," you must have some sort of definition, right?

So tell me, "what is left field?"🙂
 
A few comments (DO student):

1. I do agree that some of the issues with OMM is that a lot of people want to chalk it up to more than it is. OMM is a useful, interesting, helpful modality for MSK issues, but I think it's when people (OMM professors, lol) start reaching with it's usefulness that others get turned off and don't want to hear the anecdotes.

However, as a modality for MSK issues, especially things like low back pain - which, from what I've read, is one of the top reasons people seek primary care, it seems quite effective.

Now, even as I type that, I definitely see the fallacy of my argument - 'it seems quite effective.'

Great ... that's not how science works, and it needs to be backed with objective research and empirical data before acceptance.

I'm definitely not going to sit here and argue that OMM is well researched, because frankly, it's 120 years old and the research is absolutely lacking, however, I do think there are a few important points to consider here:

1. It's a difficult thing to research because, like I said before, it really isn't a cutting-edge modality that requires extensive research and NIH funding. It's a useful therapy for MSK dysfunction, and because 98% of it is just based on anatomy and physiology, it just isn't something people are bursting out of their seat to prove.

Additionally, and unfortunately, many of the individuals who really utilize OMM a lot prefer to fall back onto anecdotes and very outdated studies while practicing the modalities, but not researching and proving it themselves.

2. It does not lend itself to a double blind modality well ... at all. I took a research course one time and wrote a big report on hypothetically researching OMM, and had a much harder time than I thought I would trying to come up with effective, non-biased, randomized, double blind studies.

It's just unfortunate that any practitioner is going to know whether they are giving a sham or real OMM treatment (it's not the same as handing two people identical pills, one a sugar placebo, the other the trial drug) and even worse that the potential sham treatment could have actual effect (either positive or negative, but more than a simply psychological, placebo effect).

3. The research is out there, but, like I said earlier, people aren't dying to fund and publish studies on OMM, so a lot of it is very poorly funded and most of it is published in JAOA (which people immediately dismiss). The Osteopathic Research Center in Texas is doing some pretty interesting things, and there was the recent article (last year I believe) in the Journal of OB/GYN that demonstrated it was effective for pregnancy related back pain, so hopefully studies like this in more academically respected sources will continue

Now, having said all that, it's still not an excuse, and if we want to push OMM more into the main stream (and see IM residents, for example/as Old Grunt said) utilize it in clinical settings without raising eyebrows, then proper research and publications are necessary.

2. With regards to the numbers of individuals who use OMM in practice ...

The numbers I've usually seen thrown around SDN seem to arise from a singular study (more of a survey) I actually reviewed during the previously mentioned research course. Essentially, what this study did was look at NOT the number of practitioners who utilize OMM, but the percentage of people who use it + the percentage of patient they use it on. For example ...

Less than 5% of DOs reported that they used OMM on 50% or more of their patients. From here, we can't really extrapolate that only 5% of DOs use OMM in general, but what we can say is that less than 5% of DOs use it (roughly) on every other patient they treat. However, the number practitioners who use it on lower numbers of patients, 10%, 5%, 2%, etc is higher than 5 or 10% (if I remember correctly). Which means that although it's being utilized in small numbers, it is still being used by practitioners.

3. With regard to why it isn't used by more doctors ...

Frankly, OMM, for those who aren't the hardcore 'osteopaths,' really only lends itself to certain primary care, outpatient, office settings (in my opinion). It's not that it has no validity in areas like IM (some of the counterstrain techniques and soft tissue manipulation would probably actually be much appreciated - for whatever that's worth), but you aren't going to whip out a table and ask a sick patient to lay prone and receive OMM in the middle of the ICU when you still have to round on GOD knows how many patients that hour. It doesn't make sense ... even in the most 'Osteopathic' of training programs.

However, in a comprehensive, outpatient, private practice, primary care setting, it definitely has a place.

4. As far as some of the 'voo doo,' 'witch doctor' comments are concerned ...

I'd say that 98% of OMM is based in very simple anatomical and physiological principles. This is out of place, it's, therefore, affecting these tissues (which can be palpated), ergo by performing this technique you place this back, affect this, recheck here and BOOM ... done. No magic behind it, no real need (again, not an excuse) for a NIH funded study ... just manipulating the simple basics we learn via modalities that are widely adapted and used in fields like physical therapy, PM&R, etc, etc.

However, I think the 2% of OMM that's 'out there' is what gives the modality, in general, a black eye (I'm looking at you cranial). When you have 98% of something that's sound, boring, and mundane and one little BLIP that claims to do wild things and really doesn't rest (or flat out denies) upon sound, scientific principles, other scientists are going to take notice and extrapolate from here.

As physicians (and future physicians) we should really be strict with ourselves, review the treatments, and cut the ones that are outdated and flawed (which again, I personally believe are a very small amount). To be honest, it seems like a very small, aging, and vocal minority LOVES these treatments ( I don't even know why, but start talking about cranial with a hardcore cranial OMM guy and it's like mentioning 'Han shot first' to a hardcore Star Wars fan), and their adherence to these traditions without any real proof (and quite a bit of evidence to the contrary) isn't acceptable. Streamlining OMM by removing techniques like this would, in my opinion, help make it more universal in practice as well.

5. The way it's taught ...

This won't mean much to the MD students, but I know a lot of DO students take issue with the way OMM is taught and get really turned off/have no intention of utilizing it further because they don't like the curriculum (and therefore don't understand it, feel like it's valid, etc) when it's first presented. If you hated Pathology during pre-clinical, it's unlikely you'll be very interested in path when it's time for residency selection and practice, you know?

Again, just some thoughts. I actually really like OMM and plan on using it as much as I can (and when appropriate), but just some arguments for both sides/things I've personally noticed ... I guess. Sorry for the novel.
 
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I have no idea whether or not OMM is "left field" or not, it doesn't really matter, that isn't exactly the standard for medical treatments.

what matters is that the burden of proof lies with those arguing for the treatments, and no compelling arguments have been made. it's been around forever, those in favor of OMM would undoubtedly like to offer the kinds of evidence that are standard in every other major aspect of medical care, and they haven't been able to do it. students spend countless hours learning the craft and a large number of them disregard as soon as it is up to them.

take almost every argument for OMM in this thread, replace OMM with something that is unquestionably out of left field, and there are people making the same arguments for that treatment. why should I believe the arguments for OMM and not the arguments for alternative treatment x?

physical therapy seems to come up with evidence based guidelines without much difficulty, why are they able to overcome the obstacles of EBM while OMM advocates are not?

this has nothing to do with having an open mind. How many hundreds of years do we have to leave our minds open before reasonable people are allowed to close the book on something that hasn't met the burden of proof?

the sad thing is that I don't doubt certain aspects of OMM are viable treatments. the problem is that the people offering them want to sell the whole package and won't submit themselves to the rigors of EBM, tease out the things that do work, and toss out the crap that doesn't measure up.

And for the record, I spent five years working in healthcare in AT Still's backyard, a very DO friendly environment, and I have no issue with DO's. most of the ones I have worked with share my feelings about OMM.
 
thanks for your input jagger, refreshing to hear.

here's hoping that our kids won't be having these same debates. I'd love to see certain techniques rise out of the mess and become mainstream while others disappear, but currently the biggest hurdle to this is the people claiming these techniques work, which is just odd.
 
I have no idea whether or not OMM is "left field" or not, it doesn't really matter, that isn't exactly the standard for medical treatments.

what matters is that the burden of proof lies with those arguing for the treatments, and no compelling arguments have been made. it's been around forever, those in favor of OMM would undoubtedly like to offer the kinds of evidence that are standard in every other major aspect of medical care, and they haven't been able to do it. students spend countless hours learning the craft and a large number of them disregard as soon as it is up to them.

take almost every argument for OMM in this thread, replace OMM with something that is unquestionably out of left field, and there are people making the same arguments for that treatment. why should I believe the arguments for OMM and not the arguments for alternative treatment x?

physical therapy seems to come up with evidence based guidelines without much difficulty, why are they able to overcome the obstacles of EBM while OMM advocates are not?

this has nothing to do with having an open mind. How many hundreds of years do we have to leave our minds open before reasonable people are allowed to close the book on something that hasn't met the burden of proof?

the sad thing is that I don't doubt certain aspects of OMM are viable treatments. the problem is that the people offering them want to sell the whole package and won't submit themselves to the rigors of EBM, tease out the things that do work, and toss out the crap that doesn't measure up.

And for the record, I spent five years working in healthcare in AT Still's backyard, a very DO friendly environment, and I have no issue with DO's. most of the ones I have worked with share my feelings about OMM.

Physical therapy and OMM are different schools of thought and it's similar to comparing apples to oranges. There is no standard "OMM protocol" which is part of the reason why it's hard to study. Every patient is different and had different findings. Therefore it's hard to find even two of the same patient let alone 100 to even attempt a RCT. With the physical therapy literature, patients are hopefully classified/stratified and assigned a protocol/type of therapy i.e. modalities only, usual treatment, MDT, Delitto, Sahrmann. These classifications of "treatments" simply do not exist in the OMM world because there is no cookie cutter treatment for a patient. Every patient is different and every practioner has a different approach.

Since you are so stuck on EBM, please try and find me the definitive proof that any of these scenarios. These are the same real world examples that I've said before but no one seems to give them credence:
-Interventional epidural steroid injections; does it work?
-laminectomy for sub-acute/chronic radiculopathy; does this improve functional outcome?-weaning protocols for cervical orthoses after an anterior cervical disc fusion; what is the protocol?
-steroid use with acute spinal cord injuries; does it make a difference if you don't get steroids?
-platelet rich plasma injections with chronic tendinopathies; does it work?


Why are these treatments done? Not because the literature says theres a benefit but because these is a perceived clinical benefit. Perhaps we should all not do these procedures as well.
 
I think you're missing the point.

Do you have any experience with bloodletting? Have you practiced it over an extended period of time or have witnessed bloodletting treatment being done more than just a few times? If you really don't have any experience with bloodletting I don't think you understand that you can't just learn it over a week and become a "master" at it. It takes practice in regards to your bloodletting skills on different patients with different bodies. To become good at bloodletting is not as simple as memorizing information and being able to spit it out for exams.

not very convincing is it?

Although I see what your are getting at, that isn't really where I am coming from. I understand if you are going to have a mainstream treatment the burden of proofs lies within substantial evidence. All I am saying is whether or not you have had extensive experience with OMM, if you have found beneficial aspects of OMM then use it. Look, I don't think OMM is a cure all by any means but I do think it as a place in medicine. In addition, I personally will probably not use OMM that much in practice, but I feel as though I have benefited from learning it. The practicing of palpating varies tissues has also helped me develop other areas of palpating (i.e. feeling for nodules, lymph nodes, etc.). So, regardless of how much impact OMM can really have on mainstream medicine, it's helped me develop in more ways than one and I don't think that is a bad thing. If you disagree that is fine and it is your own opinion, but I am on the same page with you in regards to not all the techniques being clinically relevant.
 
Let's not overlook either that the current practice environment is prohibitive of OMM. 15 minutes is not enough time to utilize techniques as one should. You can do some stuff, but not a lot. You're almost forced to have a sole OMM practice to be able to spend the time on and use OMM as intended.
 
Fozzy also makes a very good point. No two practitioners are going to treat the same patient the same way. There are multiple ways to treat problems achieving the same level of patient satisfaction. Even if two practitioners agree on the same treatment there is a likelihood they will implement the technique differently.
 
Since you are so stuck on EBM, please try and find me the definitive proof that any of these scenarios. These are the same real world examples that I've said before but no one seems to give them credence:
-Interventional epidural steroid injections; does it work?
-laminectomy for sub-acute/chronic radiculopathy; does this improve functional outcome?-weaning protocols for cervical orthoses after an anterior cervical disc fusion; what is the protocol?
-steroid use with acute spinal cord injuries; does it make a difference if you don't get steroids?
-platelet rich plasma injections with chronic tendinopathies; does it work?


Why are these treatments done? Not because the literature says theres a benefit but because these is a perceived clinical benefit. Perhaps we should all not do these procedures as well.

I have no idea what the lit says on these things, but I'm guessing a much larger consensus exists within those fields than exists for the validity of OMM among DO's.... and yeah, maybe we shouldn't be doing them if it hasn't been shown to be of any benefit? we should probably study this!

There is no standard "bloodletting protocol" which is part of the reason why it's hard to study. Every patient is different and had different findings. Therefore it's hard to find even two of the same patient let alone 100 to even attempt a RCT. With the physical therapy literature, patients are hopefully classified/stratified and assigned a protocol/type of therapy i.e. modalities only, usual treatment, MDT, Delitto, Sahrmann. These classifications of "treatments" simply do not exist in the bloodletting world because there is no cookie cutter treatment for a patient. Every patient is different and every practioner has a different approach.

how does any of that not apply to every other type of treatment given to a patient? same story no matter what you're talking about, yet many others find ways to overcome these obstacles and come up with results and protocols and best practices....

excuses excuses excuses... there's no standard protocols, all patients are different, research is hard, takes years to master, is an art.... so on and so on....
 
I have no idea what the lit says on these things, but I'm guessing a much larger consensus exists within those fields than exists for the validity of OMM among DO's.... and yeah, maybe we shouldn't be doing them if it hasn't been shown to be of any benefit? we should probably study this!

There is no standard "bloodletting protocol" which is part of the reason why it's hard to study. Every patient is different and had different findings. Therefore it's hard to find even two of the same patient let alone 100 to even attempt a RCT. With the physical therapy literature, patients are hopefully classified/stratified and assigned a protocol/type of therapy i.e. modalities only, usual treatment, MDT, Delitto, Sahrmann. These classifications of "treatments" simply do not exist in the bloodletting world because there is no cookie cutter treatment for a patient. Every patient is different and every practioner has a different approach.

how does any of that not apply to every other type of treatment given to a patient? same story no matter what you're talking about, yet many others find ways to overcome these obstacles and come up with results and protocols and best practices....

excuses excuses excuses... there's no standard protocols, all patients are different, research is hard, takes years to master, is an art.... so on and so on....

Haha...that's what I thought. I've given you 4 examples above where "others have not found a way to overcome. No other suggestions from you except for "so on and so on..."

I've given real world examples, citations, and clinical experience. When push comes to shove it's hard to defend the "nuh-uh" argument.

Moderator, please make this a sticky🙂
 
this is about OMM. if johnny jumped off a bridge, would you do it too?
 
Haha...that's what I thought. I've given you 4 examples above where "others have not found a way to overcome. No other suggestions from you except for "so on and so on..."

I've given real world examples, citations, and clinical experience. When push comes to shove it's hard to defend the "nuh-uh" argument.

Moderator, please make this a sticky🙂

I think he is making some pretty valid points.

Let's say that OMM is a valid non-narcotic treatment for certain msk conditions, esp that elusive lumbar pain. In our current healthcare environment OMM - a low cost, non pharmacological treatment for non specific lumbar pain - seems like it would be a fairly hot area of investigation. Acupuncture and homeopathic remedies are being actively studied with funding from NIH.

It seems that DO's and/or the faculty at DO schools would be pursuing clinical trials (perhaps through the NIH's complementary medicine center). Aren't these OMM residency and fellowship programs conducting research? A fellow (especially those associated with a medical school) usually have a research requirement.

Also, with the number of DO schools out there, all with(I hope) academically active faculty, it seems that there would be a good deal of research going on in the field.

It would also be logical to assume that there would be an attempt to rigorously investigate if manual medicine is effective - there is an entire system of medicine dedicated to it.

I don't buy the "too complicated to research" argument either, but posting on the iPhone is too much of a pain to continue.
 
I think he is making some pretty valid points.

Let's say that OMM is a valid non-narcotic treatment for certain msk conditions, esp that elusive lumbar pain. In our current healthcare environment OMM - a low cost, non pharmacological treatment for non specific lumbar pain - seems like it would be a fairly hot area of investigation. Acupuncture and homeopathic remedies are being actively studied with funding from NIH.

It seems that DO's and/or the faculty at DO schools would be pursuing clinical trials (perhaps through the NIH's complementary medicine center). Aren't these OMM residency and fellowship programs conducting research? A fellow (especially those associated with a medical school) usually have a research requirement.

Also, with the number of DO schools out there, all with(I hope) academically active faculty, it seems that there would be a good deal of research going on in the field.

It would also be logical to assume that there would be an attempt to rigorously investigate if manual medicine is effective - there is an entire system of medicine dedicated to it.

I don't buy the "too complicated to research" argument either, but posting on the iPhone is too much of a pain to continue.
I don't know how current this is:
http://www.pcom.edu/department_web_...teopathic_mani/OMM_Research/omm_research.html
 
Haha...that's what I thought. I've given you 4 examples above where "others have not found a way to overcome. No other suggestions from you except for "so on and so on..."

I've given real world examples, citations, and clinical experience. When push comes to shove it's hard to defend the "nuh-uh" argument.

Moderator, please make this a sticky🙂


No some treatments non OMM that you gave have very little evidence showing that they work. Also these treatments have not been out nearly as long as OMM. The treatments you raised have no real major effect that can be compared to placebo. Same as OMM.

Also for ESI it works well for short term pain given caudally with an anesthetic. Given in other areas the results are less clear but studies are being done. Science is a process.

You can't use topics that are undergoing scientific research to OMM which is does not really going under scientific scrutiny nor can it back its claims and need I remind you that the burden of proof falls on the OMM practitioners to prove its effectiveness.

Physical therapy gets scientific results unlike OMM.

Physical therapy and OMM are different schools of thought and it's similar to comparing apples to oranges. There is no standard "OMM protocol" which is part of the reason why it's hard to study. Every patient is different and had different findings. Therefore it's hard to find even two of the same patient let alone 100 to even attempt a RCT. With the physical therapy literature, patients are hopefully classified/stratified and assigned a protocol/type of therapy i.e. modalities only, usual treatment, MDT, Delitto, Sahrmann. These classifications of "treatments" simply do not exist in the OMM world because there is no cookie cutter treatment for a patient. Every patient is different and every practioner has a different approach.

If there is no standard OMM protocol than how can you say its effective? Physical therapy also has to deal with "different" patients and yet it is still backed by strong scientific evidence.

And how many physicians use their extensive histology training, pray tell.

Pathologists. Also the argument that "not" many physicians will use it does not mean it is not useful especially since researchers are advancing medicine with these fields of science. Just because a primary care doctor might not use it much doesn't mean it is not very important. Those 1 in 10 physicians play a very important part which is why specialists exist.
 
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No some treatments non OMM that you gave have very little evidence showing that they work. Also these treatments have not been out nearly as long as OMM. The treatments you raised have no real major effect that can be compared to placebo. Same as OMM.
My point with some of the therapies that I've listed is that the literature does not suppor the efficacy but it is still being clinically practiced.

Also for ESI it works well for short term pain given caudally with an anesthetic. Given in other areas the results are less clear but studies are being done. Science is a process.
I agree that science is a process. There are researchers actively studying the current back pain model and OMM.

You can't use topics that are undergoing scientific research to OMM which is does not really going under scientific scrutiny nor can it back its claims and need I remind you that the burden of proof falls on the OMM practitioners to prove its effectiveness.

There is active research, I'm not sure why you're making this assumption.
Posadzki P, Ernst E. Osteopathy for musculoskeletal pain patients: a
systematic review of randomized controlled trials. Clin Rheumatol. 2011
Feb;30(2):285-91. Epub 2010 Oct 30. PubMed PMID: 21053038.

Physical therapy gets scientific results unlike OMM.
Who said that OMM isn't getting scientific results? Please see above.

If there is no standard OMM protocol than how can you say its effective? Physical therapy also has to deal with "different" patients and yet it is still backed by strong scientific evidence.
What does the quotations around "different" imply? Are they all the same. Please tell me the next time you see 2 patients with the same MSK complaint and pathophysiology. It's difficult to find. Again, no one is saying that it's not worth studying and to accept it. I'm saying that it's hard to study because of how it's practiced.
 
Pondered the MCV? No, not really. But I don't really work up anemia either. If they're symptomatic I address it, and if they aren't I let someone else do the mental masturbation either as an inpatient or an outpatient.

But there is no doubt that it is important to working up anemia, right? Even if that's not what you address in your scope of practice.
 
Sorry for the delayed response. I didn't see that this was responded to.

No problem. We are all busy. I am on my surgery clerkship, which means, this is the last thing I should be doing.

That is true that a majority of DOs don't use their OMM training. However, I would argue that it might not be in their scope of practice. There are plenty of things that we learn in medical school that we don't do anymore from a practical standpoint. OMM is time consuming and it can be hard to fit into a very hectic day unless you set up your clinic to accordingly.

You could argue that, but it would be a supposition that you can't prove. I can't tell you why most DO's abandon OMM. However, I can tell you that it doesn't speak highly of OMM as a treatment modality.

I agree that there are many things we learn in medical school that aren't terribly useful in clinical practice. However, when it comes to clinical practice (which OMM falls under), this shouldn't be the case. OMM is not some abstract biochemical pathway that you memorize and spit out for step 1. It's the basis of the DO degree.

The study I was referring to is a actually a huge article in the rehabilitation world. It looks at lumbar manipulation (which is a part of OMM) and low back pain. It basically shows that you can stratify who can benefit from lumbar manipulation in the setting of acute low back pain.

I understand that. I've never argued that all back pain is equal, and I appreciate the study (done by physical therapists and not about the efficacy of OMM).

The study was fine, but it wasn't an endorsement of OMM.

I understand the point of evidenced based medicine however it's a best attempt at objectifying the subjective and/or account for diversity of study design. However, there are limitations to EBM one of which is what is "best practice" may not be the best for the patient. Clinicians are going by patient response not just "my intuition/clinical instinct." The fact is that certain patients do feel better.

The hard truth is, giving patient's what they want to make them feel better is not necessarily good medicine. It's not good medicine to treat an anxiety disorder in perpetuity with benzos. It's not good medicine to treat musculoskeletal pain in perpetuity with narcotics. It's not good medicine to throw antibiotics at patients when they clearly have a virus. The other side of the coin to "EBM is not the end all be all" is that it does attempt to quantify clinical practice and shy away from anecdotes. In the end, this is a science based venture. We don't have to be robots, but we should try and be able to justify what we do by the outcomes, both intended and unintended.

True. But I'm not the one that's assuming that it's ineffective.

Neither am I. I said I think it has limited efficacy. The best studies on the matter have supported this conclusion. I think it can help to a degree. I don't think it is the silver bullet for pathology, even low back pain; which resolves on it's own 80% of the time.

I'm arguing that I have personally seen clinical benefit and that the studying these techniques in a scientific way is difficult. Try to find 2 patients with the same back pain. It's impossible.

But you just told me that back pain could be stratified for treatment? I don't doubt you have tons of anecdotal evidence. I also suspect you have a degree of bias on the efficacy of OMM. I certainly agree that it is hard to study OMM.

However, frankly, the burden of proof is on your side. It's not going to be sufficient to simply say "this is hard to study!". Such excuses are only going to continue to marginalize OMM.

So you are extremely masterful at everything that you've attempted or you are clinically inexperienced.

I believe you misread my quote. I said "everything in medicine is hard to study/master". OMM is not unique in that aspect. The mantra that OMM is not being used by practitioners simply because it is hard to implement doesn't hold water with me. It won't hold water with the profession. We don't shy away from treatment plans because they are "hard". We do shy away from them if they don't deliver tangible results to enough people to justify mastering them.

Seeing as you admit no experience with OMM I will go with the latter. I've done a multitude of procedures in my clinical training and OMM has been one of the hardest things to pick up let alone master.

I fully admit to ignorance in OMM. I also fully profess that I haven't seen a convincing argument to invest the time in studying it. Anecdotes aside, if the evidence supported OMM as highly efficient in treating even the most basic of problems, MS pain, it would be adapted by the established profession.

- Did you or will you learn how to do a cardiac catheterization before graduation?
- Did you or will you learn how to put in a baclofen pump before graduation?
My point is that you don't learn how to do everything in medical school. Just because you don't hear about it doesn't make it irrelevant.

And I am left to ponder why the multitude of DO residents I see at my hospital in Internal Medicine and Family Practice don't receive formal post-grad training in OMM?

I appreciate your time and a lengthy response. I see that you are very fixed on your current views which I will chalk up to inexperience for the time being. However, once you get into clinical practice I think you'll start to see the subtle differences in didactic learning and clinical practice.

Let's not play the rank game. It's silly and asinine and does nothing to advance your position. If you want to dismiss my points, simply because I am a medical student; that's your prerogative. However, you do yourself a disservice. If OMM is the product, you are the salesman and you aren't going to sale anything by belittling someone who isn't going to simply buy the party line. As it stands, even if you dismiss me, you have the larger problem of the medical establishment in general which sees little utility in OMM.

For a lot of things in medicine, they are congruent. The reality is there are still a lot of things in medicine that are unexplained. OMM is one of them.

Again, this doesn't hold water as a scientific argument.
 
Listen, we can agree to disagree. I'm not hear to make you believe me or choose not to. I think I've made a compelling argument with facts, actual citations, and specific clinical examples. My argument is that the jury is still out and have even given you a 2011 review of the literature citation.

It's difficult to make my point because you don't understand osteopathic philosophy nor do I expect you to. The citation "done by physical therapists" is not directly OMM but it does speak to one of our popular techniques: lumbar manipulation. It very clearly shows that there is a way to stratify patients with clinical effectiveness.

I just don't understand how you can claim to know the effectiveness and limitations of a treatment you know very little about. You can say all you want about the literature but if you can't interpret the designs and the data then what good is it.

Let's not play the rank game. It's silly and asinine and does nothing to advance your position. If you want to dismiss my points, simply because I am a medical student; that's your prerogative. However, you do yourself a disservice. If OMM is the product, you are the salesman and you aren't going to sale anything by belittling someone who isn't going to simply buy the party line. As it stands, even if you dismiss me, you have the larger problem of the medical establishment in general which sees little utility in OMM.

I'm not playing the rank game. I'm playing the experience game. I'm a trained osteopathic physician and see patients with musculoskeletal patients all day long. I know the popular literature regarding physical therapies and osteopathic techniques fairly well.

All you've done is disagree with no evidence.

To the OP, seek out these manipulation courses if you really are interested in developing your manual skills.

This was a great discussion and I will make sure to reference this link when the same arguments come up again.
 
Hey guys....lets not get too carried away. OMM is always taught and reiterated over and over again at my DO school (and I suspect all DO schools) as an ADJUNCTIVE therapy to all other standard of care. It is NEVER used as first line therapy for anything. The majority of DO's dont use it because the current standard of care works just fine. If someone comes in with back pain and it is relieved with Ibuprofen, then who the hell wants to spend time doing OMT. I sure as heck wont. Maybe the only time I would ever consider using it is if all other standard therapy does not seem to be working. An example is in GERD....anecdotal OMT evidence (no studies) have stated that some thoracic techniques addressing the sympathetics helps with gerd symptoms. So if all labs come back normal, the scope comes back normal, all medical therapy does not help (protonix, nexium..etc), and the patient continues to get on and off gerd like symptoms, and I am all out of options, then yeah...I might try some OMT technique which is lost cost, no risk, with only anecdotal evidence of efficacy. What else do I have to lose?...That is the best approach to using OMM in anything and that is my suggestion to all DO's and MD's that want to use OMT.👍
 
Listen, we can agree to disagree. I'm not hear to make you believe me or choose not to. I think I've made a compelling argument with facts, actual citations, and specific clinical examples. My argument is that the jury is still out and have even given you a 2011 review of the literature citation.

It's difficult to make my point because you don't understand osteopathic philosophy nor do I expect you to. The citation "done by physical therapists" is not directly OMM but it does speak to one of our popular techniques: lumbar manipulation. It very clearly shows that there is a way to stratify patients with clinical effectiveness.

I just don't understand how you can claim to know the effectiveness and limitations of a treatment you know very little about. You can say all you want about the literature but if you can't interpret the designs and the data then what good is it.

I am not trying to convince you one way or the other. My point is simply that the burden of proof for the efficacy of OMM is on the people who advocate that it is highly effective at treating the most simple of problems (musculoskeletal pain) to the claims that require even larger leaps of faith (the lymph pump).

I've already commented on the most reputable OMM study (the Andersson study in the NEJM) and had no problem in interpreting the designs and data. In fact, I pointed out major design flaws in the study (evaluation by a DO for ability to be treated - this study predates the methodology of the PT study you provided) as well as many other problems with it that are present in the responses. All that aside, Andersson's findings were modest.

The article you provided me with initially, I have no problem with at all. I understand the methodology. It also had nothing to do with OMM and was not carried out by osteopaths.

On a separate thread, I looked at the study for using the lymph pump for reducing hospital stays and noted that, with the exception of two outcomes, the p values were less than impressive. One p value was .94.

I haven't read your current article, but I will eventually. At any rate, I am perfectly capable of reading a peer reviewed article and thinking critically about it and analyzing the biostatistics.

I think you also misinterpret my thoughts on OMM. I am not rooting against it. If OMM (as opposed to narcotics) were highly successful for treating musculoskeletal pain and we could stop handing out narcotics like candy, I'd be it's biggest fan. I do think OMM has legitimate use and is helpful, I just think it's value is overstated. To date, I've seen little evidence outside of anecdotes that would argue against that.

What I often seen is a sort of "bunker mentality" when it comes to this issue. (i.e. "You don't understand the osteopathic philosophy" With all due respect, that is just bunk. All physicians treat the "whole body" and if you are suggesting that only people with the D.O. degree are capable of understanding or implementing OMM, then it becomes really ludicrous).

With respect to the last paragraph: that's also not a terribly persuasive arrangement. As I said before, as someone who strongly believes in this, you should be interested in trying to "sell it" and not simply dismiss anyone that has legitimate issues with the claims behind it's efficacy. The vast majority of physicians who aren't trained in OMM know little about it. If you are going to automatically marginalize their questions on the matter on that basis alone, OMM will continue to be something that is a rarity in medicine these days.

I'm not playing the rank game. I'm playing the experience game. I'm a trained osteopathic physician and see patients with musculoskeletal patients all day long. I know the popular literature regarding physical therapies and osteopathic techniques fairly well.
And I respect that. However, that is alone is not going to quash inquisitive minds on this matter.

All you've done is disagree with no evidence.
Maybe I've not cited it on this particular thread, but this is the study I have looked at the most on this matter (mostly because it appears in the NEJM, which can be viewed as relatively unbiased on this matter).

http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199911043411903

The responses to the article do a better job of pointing out the flaws than I could:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM200003163421112

The response sums up the basic debate on the matter:
http://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJM199911043411910
(Though I admit there is some snarkyness in there that I don't personally agree with and felt served the article poorly).

I am not trying to be disrespectful to you and I have nothing but respect for any physician who is competent, regardless of degree source. I just have problems with the wide ranging claims about the efficacy of OMM when they haven't been well supported by clinical research. That is my only point.
 
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Hey guys....lets not get too carried away. OMM is always taught and reiterated over and over again at my DO school (and I suspect all DO schools) as an ADJUNCTIVE therapy to all other standard of care. It is NEVER used as first line therapy for anything. The majority of DO's dont use it because the current standard of care works just fine. If someone comes in with back pain and it is relieved with Ibuprofen, then who the hell wants to spend time doing OMT. I sure as heck wont. Maybe the only time I would ever consider using it is if all other standard therapy does not seem to be working. An example is in GERD....anecdotal OMT evidence (no studies) have stated that some thoracic techniques addressing the sympathetics helps with gerd symptoms. So if all labs come back normal, the scope comes back normal, all medical therapy does not help (protonix, nexium..etc), and the patient continues to get on and off gerd like symptoms, and I am all out of options, then yeah...I might try some OMT technique which is lost cost, no risk, with only anecdotal evidence of efficacy. What else do I have to lose?...That is the best approach to using OMM in anything and that is my suggestion to all DO's and MD's that want to use OMT.👍

That's a reasonable approach. However, I think before people sign on with it; their is going to have to be sufficient evidence that OMT, which will require additional training (and even years of practice as some claim) is a little better than a "hail mary" when everything else fails.

I think it would be great as a first line therapy against low back pain so we could hopefully start to ween people of the percocet they have been taking for the last 10 years. However, the research hasn't really born that out.

However, if it ever did, considering the large number of patients with low back pain; I'd (for whatever that is worth) advocate that it be incorporated in post graduate training for all primary care providers.

I am not anti-OMM. I am anti "OMM works, you just have to trust me." That is simply not going to carry any water in the larger sense.

People can dismiss that from a mere medical student, but we all know it's the truth and the established medical profession is going to have the exact same attitude.
 
Hilarious! couldn't find full text, was actually going to keep an open mind and read the review you cited, but I did find this gem from the abstract.

"Five RCTs suggested that osteopathy compared to various control interventions leads to a significantly stronger reduction of musculoskeletal pain. Eleven RCTs indicated that osteopathy compared to controls generates no change in musculoskeletal pain. Collectively, these data fail to produce compelling evidence for the effectiveness of osteopathy as a treatment of musculoskeletal pain"

you've been making my argument for me this whole time!
 
Hilarious! couldn't find full text, was actually going to keep an open mind and read the review you cited, but I did find this gem from the abstract.

"Five RCTs suggested that osteopathy compared to various control interventions leads to a significantly stronger reduction of musculoskeletal pain. Eleven RCTs indicated that osteopathy compared to controls generates no change in musculoskeletal pain. Collectively, these data fail to produce compelling evidence for the effectiveness of osteopathy as a treatment of musculoskeletal pain"

you've been making my argument for me this whole time!

I have been saying that the research does not DEFINITIVELY say that OMM support the effectiveness of osteopathy in the setting of musculoskeletal pain. I'm not sure if you do have access to get the article but the studies they reviewed had mixed results, some showing benefit and some not showing a difference when compared to other treatments. The authors clearly state in the discussion (not the abstract) that conclusions can't be made because of variation in study design, patient selection, and treatment techniques.

I'm not sure if you've been reading my posts from the beginning but I've been saying this the entire time. Furthermore, in case you need more help interpreting my posts, the reason that I posted some of those clinical examples is because those are other situations where the literature does not support the clinical findings...as the review article also says.

Nice try🙂 Please sticky!!!
 
everyone understands exactly why you posted the other clinical examples. you seem to think that if you can show a couple exceptions to the rule, that this opens the door for disregarding the rule altogether. just because other treatments have made their way into the mainstream without going through the normal process does not mean that OMM gets to ride in on their coattails.

it's your logic that is flawed. your justification for OMM basically amounts to someone trying to get out of a speeding ticket by pointing out that other people speed. excellent observation, totally irrelevant to the discussion at hand. the question isn't "are there things in medicine that literature doesn't fully justify?" the question is "is OMM a worthwhile treatment?" the answer to the first question has nothing to do with the answer to the second question. I'm perfectly comfortable answering yes with you on the first question, but you are mistaken if you think that has anything to do with the answer to the second question.

Your premises
1) studying OMM is hard so proponents shouldn't be held to the same standards as almost every other medical treatment
2) other treatments have been accepted without being held to the EBM standard
3) "the research does not DEFINITIVELY say that OMM support the effectiveness of osteopathy in the setting of musculoskeletal pain"
4) I think it works

the only one of those that even comes close to being a positive argument for the use of OMM is the last one. I realize all of this stuff was founded on some dude's opinion, but that doesn't exactly cut it anymore. I'm hoping that if someone else tried convincing you of the validity of some random treatment they're a fan of, you wouldn't even consider it if this is the best they could do.
 
4) I think it works
I know it works because my patients keep coming back and tell me. Should I disagree that they are feeling better and say that what I'm doing doesn't work?🙄

Again, your entire post is purely your opinion and perception.

Anyone see any hard evidence yet in motomed's comments to support his/her argument? Let me know when you find some.
 
I know it works because my patients keep coming back and tell me. Should I disagree that they are feeling better and say that what I'm doing doesn't work?🙄

Again, your entire post is purely your opinion and perception.

Anyone see any hard evidence yet in motomed's comments to support his/her argument? Let me know when you find some.

Which is exactly what your patients provide to you as feedback, which you are using as one of your main arguments in favor of OMM as a efficacious therapy. An argument in favor of OMM being used therapeutically isn't going to be won on the grounds of rigorous scientific study. If it had been scientifically proven to work, as has been mentioned here multiple times, it would be taught in both MD and DO programs.
 
I've already commented on the most reputable OMM study (the Andersson study in the NEJM) and had no problem in interpreting the designs and data. In fact, I pointed out major design flaws in the study (evaluation by a DO for ability to be treated - this study predates the methodology of the PT study you provided) as well as many other problems with it that are present in the responses. All that aside, Andersson's findings were modest.
THANK YOU for the article. I'll read this and get back to you.

The article you provided me with initially, I have no problem with at all. I understand the methodology. It also had nothing to do with OMM and was not carried out by osteopaths.
I think that's a pretty bold statement that it has "nothing to do" with OMM because lumbar manipulation is a popular technique. If it works regardless of who is doing the manipulation, it works!

I think you also misinterpret my thoughts on OMM. I am not rooting against it. If OMM (as opposed to narcotics) were highly successful for treating musculoskeletal pain and we could stop handing out narcotics like candy, I'd be it's biggest fan. I do think OMM has legitimate use and is helpful, I just think it's value is overstated. To date, I've seen little evidence outside of anecdotes that would argue against that.
I actually agree with you on this. OMM (in my opinion) does have adjunctive benefit in certain musculoskeletal problems. Like you, I'm not a big fan of people overstating the benefits of their treatment. However, this is not a phenomenon limited to osteopaths. There are plenty of other practitioners do this as well. Like you said, anecdotes definitely are not great forms of proof. In that review article, there are plenty of studies that show that OMM techniques work. However, they are flawed by design and patient selection.

"What I often seen is a sort of "bunker mentality" when it comes to this issue. (i.e. "You don't understand the osteopathic philosophy" With all due respect, that is just bunk. All physicians treat the "whole body" and if you are suggesting that only people with the D.O. degree are capable of understanding or implementing OMM, then it becomes really ludicrous)."
I disagree with you on this. Osteopathy medicine is much more than philosophy. There is alot of didactic and lab hours to learn the principles and techniques let alone diagnosis and implementing a treatment plan. I'm not saying that you are unable to understand. I'm saying you don't understand because you didn't study it.

If you still disagree, can you tell me some indirect techniques to treat myofascial dysfunction and tender points with in the trapezius and levator scapulae?

I don't expect you to know this.

With respect to the last paragraph: that's also not a terribly persuasive arrangement. As I said before, as someone who strongly believes in this, you should be interested in trying to "sell it" and not simply dismiss anyone that has legitimate issues with the claims behind it's efficacy. The vast majority of physicians who aren't trained in OMM know little about it. If you are going to automatically marginalize their questions on the matter on that basis alone, OMM will continue to be something that is a rarity in medicine these days.

And I respect that. However, that is alone is not going to quash inquisitive minds on this matter.

I absolutely and not trying to dismiss anyone and I mean no disrespect. If anything, I appreciate you questions! I don't think I'm marginizing questions because I keep trying to answer them. Some of you just don't like answers I'm giving. I'm not sure what else there is to say about that.

Hopefully, this clears up my "claims":
Does OMM work? Yes, but it depends on what you are treating.
Does it work for musculoskeletal problems like low back pain? Patient's have been shown to benefit from lumbar manipulation in acute low back pain as long as there is no radiating symptoms down legs, symmetric internal hip rotation, and symptoms have been less than 4weeks.
Is this my primary mode of treatment? No.
Is it adjunctive? Yes
So how does it help? It gives pain relief so that patients can participate in physical therapy and decrease medication usage.
Does the literature show efficacy? The literature is inconclusive on it's efficacy.
Is it safe? Yes, if done correctly (like most things)

That's it!
 
Which is exactly what your patients provide to you as feedback, which you are using as one of your main arguments in favor of OMM as a efficacious therapy. An argument in favor of OMM being used therapeutically isn't going to be won on the grounds of rigorous scientific study. If it had been scientifically proven to work, as has been mentioned here multiple times, it would be taught in both MD and DO programs.

Does every clinical treatment we use in medicine have scientific proof of effectiveness?
 
If it had been scientifically proven to work, as has been mentioned here multiple times, it would be taught in both MD and DO programs.

This isn't necessarily true. Again, the main point made by Pansit (which was great) is that OMM is an adjunct therapy - not the first line of treatment. This means that it's absence at MD schools (as I'm sure there are many solid adjunct treatments that aren't taught in either models) doesn't prove it's not valid.

Also, Fozzy + Moto ... are you guys arguing over one study? Research is lacking, but definitely more than 1 valid study out there in favor of OMM.

I'll find a few I've referenced before and put em up in a bit.
 
"OMM" is too vague an intervention to study effectively. There's a lot of 'art' in the practice of OMM, as there is with chiropractic, making it more difficult to study as a whole conglomeration. For this reason, much of the manual medicine research for MSK issues has looked at spinal manipulation, which usually means high-velocity low-amplitude spinal manipulation. There is a lot of spinal manipulation literature, particularly for neck and low back pain. Why don't DOs cite this literature more? I think it would help to at least start the conversation

And someone mentioned earlier that 80% of back pain resolves on its own. This is partly true, but more is known about the natural history of neck and back pain. It's important to bear in mind that, while the pain itself may improve, the dysfunction often remains (this has been convincingly shown with muscular firing patterns of spinal stabilizers). Also, the current wisdom is that neck and back pain don't always resolve and go on to be chronic, and that in many people neck and back pain are recurrent and episodic. Here's a nice review of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204403
 
My point with some of the therapies that I've listed is that the literature does not suppor the efficacy but it is still being clinically practiced.


I agree that science is a process. There are researchers actively studying the current back pain model and OMM.



There is active research, I'm not sure why you're making this assumption.
Posadzki P, Ernst E. Osteopathy for musculoskeletal pain patients: a
systematic review of randomized controlled trials. Clin Rheumatol. 2011
Feb;30(2):285-91. Epub 2010 Oct 30. PubMed PMID: 21053038.


Who said that OMM isn't getting scientific results? Please see above.


What does the quotations around "different" imply? Are they all the same. Please tell me the next time you see 2 patients with the same MSK complaint and pathophysiology. It's difficult to find. Again, no one is saying that it's not worth studying and to accept it. I'm saying that it's hard to study because of how it's practiced.

I mean scientific results of showing that is effective which physical therapy has. Again you are making excuses for a treatment when other methods have to deal with these problems and still produce good research showing its effectiveness.
 
This isn't necessarily true. Again, the main point made by Pansit (which was great) is that OMM is an adjunct therapy - not the first line of treatment. This means that it's absence at MD schools (as I'm sure there are many solid adjunct treatments that aren't taught in either models) doesn't prove it's not valid.

Also, Fozzy + Moto ... are you guys arguing over one study? Research is lacking, but definitely more than 1 valid study out there in favor of OMM.

I'll find a few I've referenced before and put em up in a bit.

MD schools do not have to disprove that a treatment is effective in order for it to be practiced it must show to be effective. The burden of proof lies upon OMM practitioners to justify its use. OMM has been around for a long time yet there are very little studies that show it is effective even as a supplemental therapy. Cranial manipulation and such can also be dangerous. The excuse that other doctors perform so and so treatment that has little evidence of working does not justify the use of OMM.

Many clinicians do things that have no real benefit such as giving pap smears to women who have had a hysterectomy. I find it very unethical to bill a patient for a treatment that shows shoddy evidence at best of working and the cases of it working are only on lower back pain.

Also some OMM practitioners also believe cranial scaral manipulation is an effective treatment to autism.

http://www.upledger.com/pdf/CS0707.pdf
 
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I mean scientific results of showing that is effective which physical therapy has. Again you are making excuses for a treatment when other methods have to deal with these problems and still produce good research showing its effectiveness.

I've already answered this but let me ask you something.

Tell me, is all "physical therapy" the same?
 
"OMM" is too vague an intervention to study effectively. There's a lot of 'art' in the practice of OMM, as there is with chiropractic, making it more difficult to study as a whole conglomeration. For this reason, much of the manual medicine research for MSK issues has looked at spinal manipulation, which usually means high-velocity low-amplitude spinal manipulation. There is a lot of spinal manipulation literature, particularly for neck and low back pain. Why don't DOs cite this literature more? I think it would help to at least start the conversation

And someone mentioned earlier that 80% of back pain resolves on its own. This is partly true, but more is known about the natural history of neck and back pain. It's important to bear in mind that, while the pain itself may improve, the dysfunction often remains (this has been convincingly shown with muscular firing patterns of spinal stabilizers). Also, the current wisdom is that neck and back pain don't always resolve and go on to be chronic, and that in many people neck and back pain are recurrent and episodic. Here's a nice review of this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18204403

I agree.
 
MD schools do not have to disprove that a treatment is effective in order for it to be practiced it must show to be effective. The burden of proof lies upon OMM practitioners to justify its use. OMM has been around for a long time yet there are very little studies that show it is effective even as a supplemental therapy. Cranial manipulation and such can also be dangerous. The excuse that other doctors perform so and so treatment that has little evidence of working does not justify the use of OMM.

Many clinicians do things that have no real benefit such as giving pap smears to women who have had a hysterectomy. I find it very unethical to bill a patient for a treatment that shows shoddy evidence at best of working and the cases of it working are only on lower back pain.

Also some OMM practitioners also believe cranial scaral manipulation is an effective treatment to autism.

http://www.upledger.com/pdf/CS0707.pdf

This whole argument is so moot...Only 5% of DO's actually use OMT, I bet I can find a HIGHER percentage of MD's who believe and use "alternative" medicine on a daily basis. The entire country of CHINA believes in chinese medicine, and many chinese MD's here believe in it. OMT is taught at osteopathic medical schools but in no way is it the "backbone" of osteopathic medicine. The backbone of osteopathic medicine today is Evidence-based medicine. It is the reason why you will find half of DO's in acgme programs, DO's in every allopathic medical institution, and DO's in every type of fellowship and specialties.
 
MD schools do not have to disprove that a treatment is effective in order for it to be practiced it must show to be effective. The burden of proof lies upon OMM practitioners to justify its use.

Ummm yeah ... I'm not arguing any of this. Someone made a comment about OMM not being valid based upon the fact that if it was, it would be taught at MD schools. I explained why this wasn't logical. Nothing more, nothing less.

Cranial manipulation and such can also be dangerous. The excuse that other doctors perform so and so treatment that has little evidence of working does not justify the use of OMM.

I don't "believe" in cranial (in the sense that it's taught and propagated right now), but I find it ironic that most of the time, the argument that I hear is that it's a farce and doesn't work. I'm having a bit of trouble seeing how if it's something that's fake, literally putting your hands on someone's head, etc, why it's also dangerous?

Don't get me wrong, I'm NOT, NOT, NOT defending cranial osteopathy ... at all, but what I'm saying is arguments like this (it does nothing ... AND it's dangerous) make me think you have a big bias against OMM in general and nothing anyone says is really going to change the knee-jerk opposition to it.

Now, if you want to say it's dangerous in the sense that some of these individuals also do crazy things like balk about vaccines, use energy healing, etc, then I understand that, but there are a LOT of quacks out there who do all this stuff without ever taking a cranial course, so, again, it doesn't have anything to do with 'danger.'



Also some OMM practitioners also believe cranial scaral manipulation is an effective treatment to autism.

http://www.upledger.com/pdf/CS0707.pdf

Upledger has been notoriously cited as ... well, nuts. However, this is an n = 1 example here, and like someone else brought up, I can do a 2.2 second google search and find 10 MDs pushing crap just as misguided and inane.

Look at someone like Andrew Weil for example ... a Harvard trained MD who, for YEARS, advocated for the use of 'black salve' as a treatment for skin cancers and linked companies that sold black salve from his website. Do a quick google search and read the horror stories of people who literally had their faces eaten off by this stuff.

Now, there is one total whack job, but I'm not trying to lump him in with the rest of Harvard trained MDs, just in the same sense that I wouldn't lump a hard working FM DO who uses some simple OMM techniques for MSK issues with his patients with Upledger.
 
This whole argument is so moot...Only 5% of DO's actually use OMT, I bet I can find a HIGHER percentage of MD's who believe and use "alternative" medicine on a daily basis. The entire country of CHINA believes in chinese medicine, and many chinese MD's here believe in it. OMT is taught at osteopathic medical schools but in no way is it the "backbone" of osteopathic medicine. The backbone of osteopathic medicine today is Evidence-based medicine. It is the reason why you will find half of DO's in acgme programs, DO's in every allopathic medical institution, and DO's in every type of fellowship and specialties.

Please do so and point out that a higher % of US MDs use alternative medicine.

And this is an argument about OMT and its effectiveness. And 5% of D.Os use OMT on about 50% of their patients which does not mean no other % of D.O uses it. The fact that so many D.Os disregard OMT shows that it has little evidence of being effective.

So what if Chinese MD's use alternative medicine that does not justify its use in of its self and does not justify OMM.

And cranial manipulation is dangerous which is part of the reason why there was such a big fallout against chiropractors there are cases where chiropractors who did cranial manipulation ended up paralyzing patients so yeah it is dangerous.

And Andrew Weil is following what is in his own deranged head. They didn't teach the curative powers of selling black salves at Harvard to cure cancer.
 
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And cranial manipulation is dangerous which is part of the reason why there was such a big fallout against chiropractors there are cases where chiropractors who did cranial manipulation ended up paralyzing patients so yeah it is dangerous.

Dude, what the hell are you even talking about? DCs don't practice cranial manipulation, and seizure/vertebral artery issues with CERVICAL manipulation have actually been demonstrated at like 1:1,000,000 .... honestly, have you done much research into OMM at all? I feel like some of the things you say are very misinformed and a blind rejection of it???

Again, please grab me the source where a fallout against DCs happened because they were paralyzing people with cranial manipulation. If OMM can't use anecdotal evidence, neither can you.
 
I've already answered this but let me ask you something.

Tell me, is all "physical therapy" the same?

You mean physical therapy supported by evidence in kinesiology and anatomy goes under rigorous study? Then no not all physical therapy is the same just like not all treatment is the same.
 
You mean physical therapy supported by evidence in kinesiology and anatomy goes under rigorous study? Then no not all physical therapy is the same just like not all treatment is the same.

1. You keep bringing up the vast amounts of research behind physical therapy, but I don't think you've shared a link thus far. I'm not doubting that it's well researched, but I find it kind of odd that people who shun OTM are allowed to get away with forging conclusive statements without sharing scholarly sources, but OMM has to adhere to a different set of rules??

2. Again, have you studied or really reviewed OMM at all? Frankly, stating that a HUGE majority of it isn't based in simple anatomical and physiological principles shows, again, a lack of understanding in my opinion.
 
Dude, what the hell are you even talking about? DCs don't practice cranial manipulation, and seizure/vertebral artery issues with CERVICAL manipulation have actually been demonstrated at like 1:1,000,000 .... honestly, have you done much research into OMM at all? I feel like some of the things you say are very misinformed and a blind rejection of it???

Again, please grab me the source where a fallout against DCs happened because they were paralyzing people with cranial manipulation. If OMM can't use anecdotal evidence, neither can you.

I'm not trying to prove the effectiveness of a study you are. Hence the burden of proof falls on you that it is justified. Some of these malpractice reports say it was cranial and even if the name was cervical it is still dangerous to give and bill for a treatment that is not proven to be effective at ALL.

And cranial manipulaton it is more like 5%

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7751168
And for the chiropractor thing

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/edmonton/story/2008/06/13/chiro-lawsuit.html

And in the 70s the war against Chiropractors by AMA many arguments were made that the treatment that Chiropractors gave was dangerous.

Oh and I have used empirical evidence and studies showing that there is little evidence showing the effectiveness of OMT.

And what the hell are you mean if If OMM can't use anecdotal evidence then neither can I? If you are pushing for a treatment that patients have to pay for burden of proof falls on YOU. Skepticism is a part of scientific discovery. You need to show its effectiveness if you are arguing about it or defending about it not me.
 
You mean physical therapy supported by evidence in kinesiology and anatomy goes under rigorous study? Then no not all physical therapy is the same just like not all treatment is the same.

Osteopathic techniques are also based on kinesiology, anatomy, and biomechanics.

Different physical therapies often have a protocol when tested in comparison to other treatments. Physical therapy can apply these protocols because typically their protocols are diagnosis based (i.e. low back pain). Occasionally, they subcategorize the back pain by directional preference. With osteopathic diagnosis (and chiropractic medicine), the diagnosis is focused on segmental dysfunction.

Again it's easier to find two patients with a diagnosis of "low back pain" and randomize them compared to finding two patients with osteopathic diagnosis of L4/L5 segments that are flexed, sidebent, and rotated to the right with an anteriorly rotated innominate 2/2 an anatomically short right leg.

I know everyone is going to say this is an excuse but it is a valid reason. Plus, I advocate further research and not to stop at this reason.
 
I'm not trying to prove the effectiveness of a study you are. Hence the burden of proof falls on you that it is justified. Some of these malpractice reports say it was cranial and even if the name was cervical it is still dangerous to give and bill for a treatment that is not proven to be effective at ALL.

God you're bad at this game ...

1. Yes you ARE trying to prove something is valid because you've quoted, over, and over, and over again with CONVICTION that PT is highly scientifically researched, and yet when I ask for one article to back up your claim or opinion you've so deeply forged, you say that I'm the one trying to validate a theory? That makes no sense.

Listen, I'm not saying PT isn't scientifically sound. What I am saying is that you've never personally researched this issue at all and are making conclusive statements without doing any of the objective data finding. However, you're using this logic to condemn OMM for ... making subjective, anecdotal claims and not backing it with research.

Why are you held to a different set of standards. I'll ask again, you have said probably a dozen times that PT is scientifically sound and research proven. Can you please provide some studies which have led you to this conclusion.

Additionally, you provided one

I put one study up there that I found interesting ... I'm not forging a thesis here.

And cranial manipulaton it is more like 5%

5% what? Additionally, did you read the study you linked about cranial? It was about a group of DOs trying to 'feel' a diagnostic cranial sign in people who already suffered brain injuries. It wasn't the cranial that caused the brain injuries.


1. Like I said before, it was cervical, not cranial (don't try to pretend like the two are interchangeable)

2. It looks like the case was thrown out of court instantly

3. We don't have any further details here

4. She's probably one of the people who should have been tested for vertebral artery issues before cervical manipulation was attempted. We're trained how to do this (I was at least), but like I said, it's literally 1 in a million.

5. The whole point of the argument was that you said cranial was dangerous because chiropractors did it and paralyzed PEOPLE (not a person) so the AMA waged a war against them. There is not one factual piece of information in that sentence, which leads me to conclude, again, that you're basing this entire argument off personal feelings and anecdotes.

And in the 70s the war against Chiropractors by AMA many arguments were made that the treatment that Chiropractors gave was dangerous.

How did that war go?

Again, AMA raging a war against DCs frankly has nothing to do with DOs at all. Different modalities in a lot of respects.

Oh and I have used empirical evidence and studies showing that there is little evidence showing the effectiveness of OMT.

I saw one about inter-practitioner reliability with regard to cranial ... not something I'm arguing for.

And what the hell are you mean if If OMM can't use anecdotal evidence then neither can I? If you are pushing for a treatment that patients have to pay for burden of proof falls on YOU. Skepticism is a part of scientific discovery. You need to show its effectiveness if you are arguing about it or defending about it not me.

I don't disagree that the burden of proof lies on DOs ... I've never argued this. What I AM saying is that you're dismissing OMM based off your own personal, subjective opinions. You've made a series of wild, unsubstantiated claims - DCs paralyzing people with cranial, cranial being both fake and dangerous at the same time, OMM being unrelated to anatomy and physiology without any sort of real research into the subject. Furthermore, to try and validate your own personal beliefs, you've quickly pulled up a few articles on pubmed during our argument (ie the last 20 minutes) and have never done any of this research before forging an opinion.
 
God you're bad at this game ...

1. Yes you ARE trying to prove something is valid because you've quoted, over, and over, and over again with CONVICTION that PT is highly scientifically researched, and yet when I ask for one article to back up your claim or opinion you've so deeply forged, you say that I'm the one trying to validate a theory? That makes no sense.

Listen, I'm not saying PT isn't scientifically sound. What I am saying is that you've never personally researched this issue at all and are making conclusive statements without doing any of the objective data finding. However, you're using this logic to condemn OMM for ... making subjective, anecdotal claims and not backing it with research.

Why are you held to a different set of standards. I'll ask again, you have said probably a dozen times that PT is scientifically sound and research proven. Can you please provide some studies which have led you to this conclusion.



I put one study up there that I found interesting ... I'm not forging a thesis here.



5% what? Additionally, did you read the study you linked about cranial? It was about a group of DOs trying to 'feel' a diagnostic cranial sign in people who already suffered brain injuries. It wasn't the cranial that caused the brain injuries.



1. Like I said before, it was cervical, not cranial (don't try to pretend like the two are interchangeable)

2. It looks like the case was thrown out of court instantly

3. We don't have any further details here

4. She's probably one of the people who should have been tested for vertebral artery issues before cervical manipulation was attempted. We're trained how to do this (I was at least), but like I said, it's literally 1 in a million.

5. The whole point of the argument was that you said cranial was dangerous because chiropractors did it and paralyzed PEOPLE (not a person) so the AMA waged a war against them. There is not one factual piece of information in that sentence, which leads me to conclude, again, that you're basing this entire argument off personal feelings and anecdotes.



How did that war go?

Again, AMA raging a war against DCs frankly has nothing to do with DOs at all. Different modalities in a lot of respects.



I saw one about inter-practitioner reliability with regard to cranial ... not something I'm arguing for.



I don't disagree that the burden of proof lies on DOs ... I've never argued this. What I AM saying is that you're dismissing OMM based off your own personal, subjective opinions.
You've made a series of wild, unsubstantiated claims - DCs paralyzing people with cranial, cranial being both fake and dangerous at the same time, OMM being unrelated to anatomy and physiology without any sort of real research into the subject. Furthermore, to try and validate your own personal beliefs, you've quickly pulled up a few articles on pubmed during our argument (ie the last 20 minutes) and have never done any of this research before forging an opinion.

You are still posting a whole lot of nothing fine I show you multiple scientific articles showing the effectiveness of PT. Since you are repeatedly asking for it. So I guess OMM=PT to you...

http://www.best-seller-books.com/ki...tal-system-foundations-for-rehabilitation.pdf

http://ajpheart.physiology.org/content/early/2008/10/10/ajpheart.00902.2008.full.pdf

http://ukpmc.ac.uk/abstract/MED/5378020

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19290675

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21423253

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21421266

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21419358

I guess a 3 second google search is too hard for you. Sure you believe that PT is supported by science which is why you asked for multiple articles...🙄

Get off your persecution complex you are not held to no different standard. And get it straight AMA said chiropractors where DANGEROUS and could lead to harm of multiple patients. They made numerous attacks on the profession.

http://www.chiro.org/Wilk/

Nope I gave multiple studies that should that OMM had little effectiveness. I dismissing OMM based off of numerous empirical studies that have not shown that in is more effective than massage.

You are the one trying to throw red herrings out by posting things like "MDs do stuff that is not supported by science" and acting as if that justifies the use of OMM at all.

And for the study I linked 3 cases of iatrogenesis occurred which means that the treatment caused it.

Ok dude show me evidence of cranial bone movement and cranial rhythm.

And show proof that harm is literally 1 in a million.
 
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