OMM used to shield sexual abuse

[raiderette]

Excuse used by a serial predator. The same situation could be used by someone performing pelvic or breast exams and both are performed by MDs and DOs alike. OMM does not encourage such behavior in any way, why any reasonable/educated person would think this is related to OMM/DOs as a whole or think this guy isn't an outlier is beyond me.

Apparently, the Title IX investigation trusted the OMM explanation. It hurts all of us, like over-prescribing narcotics or bilking Medicare.

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[AlbinoHawk DO]

Oh, I hope we don’t have to do this in lab this semester.

Also, how do you pull or hurt those muscles? Horseback riding or an enthusiastic game of leap frog.

At my school we definitely did.

You can hurt those muscles during childbirth or injury to the area.

 

[ncide]

That seems like it's one finger slip away from sexual assault. I can certainly see why a sexual predator would be willing to do "medical" treatments like that.

It seems to be therapy that could either be falsely construed to be sexual assault, or be used with ill intention to rationalize or excuse assault.

 

[JP2740]

I am disturbed that he was able to convince anyone that his sexual abuse was a medical treatment. Is that an OMM issue, or is it an excuse used by a serial predator? Either way, it hurts MSU and the validity of DO. Glad to see the president is stepping down.

Apparently several DO's in this thread convincing themselves the same

 

[Stagg737]

Apparently several DO's in this thread convincing themselves the same

No one is convincing themselves that this POS wasn't sexually assaulting people, just that a technique that involves digital insertion isn't necessarily sexual assault. I suppose you also believe that pelvic manual exams are sexual assault and that DREs and manual disimpaction are sodomy? BTW, I'm not defending those OMT techniques, just pointing out the stupidity of your argument.

 

[libertyyne]

No one is convincing themselves that this POS wasn't sexually assaulting people, just that a technique that involves digital insertion isn't necessarily sexual assault. I suppose you also believe that pelvic manual exams are sexual assault and that DREs and manual disimpaction are sodomy? BTW, I'm not defending those OMT techniques, just pointing out the stupidity of your argument.

Got some evidence and rationale , plus underlying scientific basis. Do these OMT techniques have the same?

Accuracy of the pelvic examination in detecting adnexal masses.

Padilla LA, Radosevich DM, Milad MP

Obstet Gynecol. 2000;96(4):593.

 

[Reveler]

Many DO schools across the country teach techniques that manipulate sensitive areas while patients are clothed. The teaching of these techniques takes place in OMM labs with as many as 100 students taking part. I have a friend at a DO school that tried to opt-out of participating in certain OMM techniques due to various reasons that I won't disclose here. The school didn't handle it well and only granted her request when she threatened legal action.

I think some might agree that DO schools should re-evaluate which OMM techniques are taught (obviously, those that are evidence based) and leave the bulk of OMM education to fellowships and electives so that students with an actual interest can opt-in, rather than creating barriers for students to opt-out.

 

[MSTPlease]

Oh, I hope we don’t have to do this in lab this semester.

Also, how do you pull or hurt those muscles? Horseback riding or an enthusiastic game of leap frog.

Pregnancy, endometriosis, cycling, and pelvic adhesions from prior surgery come to mind

 

[MSTPlease]

Got some evidence and rationale , plus underlying scientific basis. Do these OMT techniques have the same?

Accuracy of the pelvic examination in detecting adnexal masses.

Padilla LA, Radosevich DM, Milad MP

Obstet Gynecol. 2000;96(4):593.

Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) for lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) in women. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS: The quantitative analysis shows a statistically significant and clinically relevant improvement when the osteopathic intervention was compared to an untreated group. Two studies which compare OMT with the pelvic floor muscle training as a reference treatment document almost the same therapeutic effect.

 

[Stagg737]

Got some evidence and rationale , plus underlying scientific basis. Do these OMT techniques have the same?

Accuracy of the pelvic examination in detecting adnexal masses.

Padilla LA, Radosevich DM, Milad MP

Obstet Gynecol. 2000;96(4):593.

There's minimal evidence for the long term efficacy of most treatment modalities (including invasive procedures) for relief of low back pain over placebo, yet those are still performed regularly. If a treatment is believed to be efficacious (even if there isn't solid evidence of it), is explained to a patient, and the patient approves, are you really going to call that assualt/harassment? Because that's the argument JP is making. If so, then you better consider other procedures and techniques outside of OMT, like epidurals for chronic LBP, to be assault as well. Again, that's not what this guy did. He legitimately abused his power to directly harm his patients. That is a very different argument than saying a treatment is assault because there isn't sufficient and definitive evidence for it's use.

Btw, more recent guidelines than 18 years ago from numerous groups have stated that there is insufficient evidence to recommend pelvic manual exams in most asymptomatic patients yet many OB's still do it. Even ACOG who still recommends them as regular screening for ovarian cancer and 1 or 2 other conditions (which we have other tests for) is reviewing their recommendation because of the results of the USPSTF findings.

Article: Medscape: Medscape Access

Current USPSTF recommendations:
Final Update Summary: Gynecological Conditions: Periodic Screening With the Pelvic Examination - US Preventive Services Task Force

 

[zero0]

Questionable, meme-intensive sources inform me he got 175 years

 

[NontradCA]

you guys are so clueless about D.O. What Nassar did was wrong but there are legitimate OMM pelvis treatments as the above video demonstrated

Lol no there aren’t

 

[NontradCA]

If you mean that it doesn't have extensive and rigorous scientific studies behind them, then there is plenty of that in medicine as a whole, not just regarding OMM. Especially in areas like pain management. Not saying there aren't areas of OMM that aren't total BS, but I wouldn't write off the field completely.

Regardless of your stances on OMM, the implications of the article are a joke and stating that there's "a nuanced difference between OMM and sexual assault" shows a complete lack of understanding of medicine in general.

Lol. That’s not from the article. That’s a quote by the MSU administration to dismiss the allegations of rape. SMH seems like a lot of you chip on the shoulder students don’t see what’s going on here. They need to be in prison too, not just stepping down.

A lot of you are undermining the implications of this. This sets OMM back 50 years. Have any of you ever heard of beneficence? OMM is a ****ty excuse for medicine.

 

[Microshaft]

Don't really understand why the doc has to palpate the labia in order to move the leg as if it affects the positioning lmfao

 

[JP2740]

Don't really understand why the doc has to palpate the labia in order to move the leg as if it affects the positioning lmfao

Lmao, in comes the DO army

 

[libertyyne]

Osteopathic manipulative treatment (OMT) for lower urinary tract symptoms (LUTS) in women. - PubMed - NCBI

RESULTS: The quantitative analysis shows a statistically significant and clinically relevant improvement when the osteopathic intervention was compared to an untreated group. Two studies which compare OMT with the pelvic floor muscle training as a reference treatment document almost the same therapeutic effect.

Do you have an english link to the study this doesnt really show much.

 

[libertyyne]

There's minimal evidence for the long term efficacy of most treatment modalities (including invasive procedures) for relief of low back pain over placebo, yet those are still performed regularly. If a treatment is believed to be efficacious (even if there isn't solid evidence of it), is explained to a patient, and the patient approves, are you really going to call that assualt/harassment? Because that's the argument JP is making. If so, then you better consider other procedures and techniques outside of OMT, like epidurals for chronic LBP, to be assault as well. Again, that's not what this guy did. He legitimately abused his power to directly harm his patients. That is a very different argument than saying a treatment is assault because there isn't sufficient and definitive evidence for it's use.

Btw, more recent guidelines than 18 years ago from numerous groups have stated that there is insufficient evidence to recommend pelvic manual exams in most asymptomatic patients yet many OB's still do it. Even ACOG who still recommends them as regular screening for ovarian cancer and 1 or 2 other conditions (which we have other tests for) is reviewing their recommendation because of the results of the USPSTF findings.

Article: Medscape: Medscape Access

Current USPSTF recommendations:
Final Update Summary: Gynecological Conditions: Periodic Screening With the Pelvic Examination - US Preventive Services Task Force

Thats the thing, we find something that doesnt work, we stop using it. Our societies issue guidance. We acknowledge doubt of efficacy. And eventually the practice does changes just like PSA. Do DO's do that with OMM? Is there any critical review of your own literature? or does it get taught and practiced like it is completely efficacious. They make cult members out of you.

The annual clinical breast exam and prostate exam both have little to no efficacy in screening for cancer. Yet most primary care/obgyn MDs I know do one or both routinely. This problem isn't unique to osteopathy.

From UpToDate:
View attachment 228395
View attachment 228396

Think of it like the PSA, first there was disbelief, then backlash, then acknolwedgement and then acceptance. We are atleast capable of apraising something and then saying . Nope, not doing it. Eventually it does trickle into practice. I dont think OMM recieves the same treatment from most DOs.

 

[libertyyne]

First off, I'm an MD student, so I can assure you that brainwashing is not the reason for my opinion. Second, lots of societies have issued guidance yet I don't know a single MD who has phased both of these exams out of practice as screening tools, and my medical school taught both exams in our clinical skills course as something to be done routinely and annually regardless of whether the patient was symptomatic. Look at all the back pain surgeries like laminectomy and spinal fusion that have little to no efficacy at follow up that are done almost daily by orthopedic surgeons. The proportion of DOs actually practicing OMM is quite small, and I would imagine those doing the pelvic floor techniques described above is a fraction of that number. If you want to be disillusioned with OMM, that's just fine, but MDs are doing the same thing with much more invasive, expensive, and harmful procedures than somebody touching your back for 10 minutes. The idea that we're so much better is naive.

I never said you were brainwashed. And im almost constantly railing against inefficacious and overutilization of procedures. Including cath, and a plethora of back pain surgeries. The issue I have is with the absolute certainity with which OMM is promulgated. Or the claims that large portions of it are evidence based.Furthermore, Two wrongs do not make a right just because other people are doing some questionable stuff, doesnt mean that these people get a pass. The whataboutism is not a good logical defense of any action.

 

[ThrowAwayStepDO]

I never said you were brainwashed. And im almost constantly railing against inefficacious and overutilization of procedures. Including cath, and a plethora of back pain surgeries. The issue I have is with the absolute certainity with which OMM is promulgated. Or the claims that large portions of it are evidence based.Furthermore, Two wrongs do not make a right just because other people are doing some questionable stuff, doesnt mean that these people get a pass. The whataboutism is not a good logical defense of any action.

first off, i hate omm, its a complete time suck in my life and too much of it is bogus (cranial, chapman points, etc). that being said, it is clear you really have no idea what MOST of omm is. as MOST of it is literally physical therapy. look, i get it, my sister is an MD and shes like "so do you guys just crack backs during that class or what." but, clearly you have no actual idea of what omm is or all the techniques within it.

so, i guess you dont thnk physical therapy is evidence-based...as that is literally 2/3 of the crap we have to do in those labs. f regaining mobility!

 

[libertyyne]

first off, i hate omm, its a complete time suck in my life and too much of it is bogus (cranial, chapman points, etc). that being said, it is clear you really have no idea what MOST of omm is. as MOST of it is literally physical therapy. look, i get it, my sister is an MD and shes like "so do you guys just crack backs during that class or what." but, clearly you have no actual idea of what omm is or all the techniques within it.

so, i guess you dont thnk physical therapy is evidence-based...as that is literally 2/3 of the crap we have to do in those labs. f regaining mobility!

Could you link the most evidence based of your techniques?

 

[NontradCA]

first off, i hate omm, its a complete time suck in my life and too much of it is bogus (cranial, chapman points, etc). that being said, it is clear you really have no idea what MOST of omm is. as MOST of it is literally physical therapy. look, i get it, my sister is an MD and shes like "so do you guys just crack backs during that class or what." but, clearly you have no actual idea of what omm is or all the techniques within it.

so, i guess you dont thnk physical therapy is evidence-based...as that is literally 2/3 of the crap we have to do in those labs. f regaining mobility!

Physical therapy is much more useful than OMM. And you know, has evidence behind it. Please don’t insult physical therapists by trying to minimize what they do to OMM.

Everyone knows there’s only one reason for OMM. To keep administrative jobs at DO schools. It’s a complete joke.

 

[NontradCA]

What is it that they do in cults again? Starts with a "b" and ends with a "rainwashing"?

Also, every DO student I have ever talked to about OMM says when the efficacy for a technique was debateable, they were taught that. None of the multiple DOs I see for my primary care and various medical issues have ever suggested OMM as a modality of treatment for me. Nobody I've spoken to is laboring under the delusion that they're curing anybody with OMM. Maybe some people at the top are "promulgating" that idea, but I think your average DO isn't taking that hook, line and sinker. One study found that more than half of DOs use OMM in <5% of their patients (Diminished use of osteopathic manipulative treatment and its impact on the uniqueness of the osteopathic profession. - PubMed - NCBI). My point is that OMM isn't used frequently enough and isn't placing patients at a high enough risk of harm to be railing against it.

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

 

[deleted707454]

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

I do think the musculoskeletal components of OMM have a huge utility for athletes. I'm a former athlete and many of my past teams exclusively used DOs for best identifying & treating overuse issues. The sports med MDs I'd see on my own dime weren't completely clued in to the muscle compensation patterns and how to correct them. They tended to be very steroid shot happy. For MSK stuff now, I usually like to see board certified in OMT. For other things though, e.g. if I had cancer or cardiac issues, I'd turn to the MDs for sure.

 

[Lawpy]

I do think the musculoskeletal components of OMM have a huge utility for athletes. I'm a former athlete and many of my past teams exclusively used DOs for best identifying & treating overuse issues. The sports med MDs I'd see on my own dime weren't completely clued in to the muscle compensation patterns and how to correct them. They tended to be very steroid shot happy. For MSK stuff now, I usually like to see board certified in OMT. For other things though, e.g. if I had cancer or cardiac issues, I'd turn to the MDs for sure.

I think you are making an artificial and false distinction between MD and DO physicians. Why is OMM unique to DOs? What is preventing MD schools from making OMM an elective? Why can't sports medicine MD docs use OMM if OMM is so effective?

 

[deleted707454]

I think you are making an artificial and false distinction between MD and DO physicians. Why is OMM unique to DOs? What is preventing MD schools from making OMM an elective? Why can't sports medicine MD docs use OMM if OMM is so effective?

Some do, I have seen one MD sports doc who did do OMM

 

[Who Knows!]

DO here, LOL @ OMM. Lets be real the only reason majority of us are at DO schools is because we messed up somewhere along the way (MCAT, GPA, Drank to many beers in college) and couldn't get accepted into MD school. We didn't go to DO school because we throughly believed that "we treat the body as a whole" and MD's don't or we wanted to treat the body with our hands. Its just how things worked out. There is some usefulness in OMM, but majority of it I don't personally believe in.

Now for the arrogant MD's out there, don't make blanket statements about the DO profession just cause of one guy. I can link you to a few MD who have been charged with sexual assault but I'm not going to question your training by saying this hurts the MD profession. We we never taught in OMM to sexually harass people and the media covering it hasn't made reference to the DO profession as doing such. First time reading about it here.

Cheers.

 

[Chibucks15]

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

Ehh idk from my experience people think that it can work in MSK, which is true, but doubt the rest of the stuff that doesn't have full evidence behind it. But blanket statements are more fun

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Got some evidence and rationale , plus underlying scientific basis. Do these OMT techniques have the same?

Accuracy of the pelvic examination in detecting adnexal masses.

Padilla LA, Radosevich DM, Milad MP

Obstet Gynecol. 2000;96(4):593.

Didn't we used to do a rectal on every dude like every year until we realized it was a waste and guidelines changed? The same goes for guidelines on breast exams. Now they are saying even the ones done by doctors are useless. Don't come here pretending everything is perfectly established science

 

[libertyyne]

Didn't we used to do a rectal on every dude like every year until we realized it was a waste and guidelines changed? The same goes for guidelines on breast exams. Now they are saying even the ones done by doctors are useless. Don't come here pretending everything is perfectly established science

Atleast we can admit when we are wrong and change guidelines. Did they stop teaching chapman points? Was the phrenology class booked? How about that derm omm?

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Atleast we can admit when we are wrong and change guidelines. Did they stop teaching chapman points? Was the phrenology class booked? How about that derm omm?

Don't give me that BS. A ton of us are against chapman points and other stupid aspects of osteopathy. It doesn't mean it's easy to change things with a reluctant leadership. Besides, I'm sure there are many allopathic things out there that they try to refuse to change. Usually it is anything that brings in money. Just look how long it took to accept H pylori as a cause for ulcers.

 

[Chibucks15]

Atleast we can admit when we are wrong and change guidelines. Did they stop teaching chapman points? Was the phrenology class booked? How about that derm omm?

you realize that DOs also do the physical exams that were changed right? Honestly with the amount of primary care DOs they probably did it just as often. But alas we should all bow down to the mighty MDs who are humble enough to realize 'they' were wrong to change things. On a more serious not though I don't believe any of us are arguing OMM is a perfect thing...honestly most students don't buy in.

 

[NotYou20]

Thats the thing, we find something that doesnt work, we stop using it. Our societies issue guidance. We acknowledge doubt of efficacy. And eventually the practice does changes just like PSA. Do DO's do that with OMM? Is there any critical review of your own literature? or does it get taught and practiced like it is completely efficacious. They make cult members out of you.



Think of it like the PSA, first there was disbelief, then backlash, then acknolwedgement and then acceptance. We are atleast capable of apraising something and then saying . Nope, not doing it. Eventually it does trickle into practice. I dont think OMM recieves the same treatment from most DOs.

The vast majority of DOs using little or much more commonly zero OMM is exactly what you're describing

 

[Goro]

He digitally penetrated young girls. He was given the nickname "Crotch Doc" by the MSU volleyball team. These reports are so heinous that anyone who didn't order a full investigation should never be in leadership again.

Fortunately, heads are starting to roll at MSU. I'm wondering when the convictions will come in.

 

[jw3600]

I can’t wait to finish med school and for the most part cut ties with anyone remotely tied with the AOA, a DO school, or thats believes that OMM is different than tarot cards.

Caveat: some of the MSK stuff is fine but until people admit that 90% is bull**** I’ll gladly through the baby out with the bath water.

 

[Psai]

you guys are so clueless about D.O. What Nassar did was wrong but there are legitimate OMM pelvis treatments as the above video demonstrated

hahahahahahahahahah

 

[Stagg737]

Lol. That’s not from the article. That’s a quote by the MSU administration to dismiss the allegations of rape. SMH seems like a lot of you chip on the shoulder students don’t see what’s going on here. They need to be in prison too, not just stepping down.

A lot of you are undermining the implications of this. This sets OMM back 50 years. Have any of you ever heard of beneficence? OMM is a ****ty excuse for medicine.

And I agree with you, that if the MSU admins were complicit they should absolutely be punished. I also agree that statements like the one you circled have the potential to do a ton of damage, which is all the more reason BS OMM needs to be vetted and the more legitimate and potentially helpful techniques need to have some actual solid research done. I'm not surprised it hasn't been done though, given the lack of research funding and research in general available to DO schools compared to MD schools.

Thats the thing, we find something that doesnt work, we stop using it. Our societies issue guidance. We acknowledge doubt of efficacy. And eventually the practice does changes just like PSA. Do DO's do that with OMM? Is there any critical review of your own literature? or does it get taught and practiced like it is completely efficacious. They make cult members out of you.

Think of it like the PSA, first there was disbelief, then backlash, then acknolwedgement and then acceptance. We are atleast capable of apraising something and then saying . Nope, not doing it. Eventually it does trickle into practice. I dont think OMM recieves the same treatment from most DOs.

Then why did the ACOG reject the recommendations of the USPSTF after their (well-backed) findings that manual pelvic exams should not be used as a screening tool in asymptomatic patients? They're still recommending it's use as a screening tool, and even went so far as to say there's inadequate evidence either way, so we're going to recommend OB's keep doing it. How about that kayexelate is still used in many hospital EDs when patients come in with hyperkalemia suspected to be acute despite it's known to be slow-acting and that the evidence that it even lowers total body K is dubious at best? Why is it still recommended that tPA be used as treatment for ischemic stroke within 4.5 hours of onset despite now having solid evidence that the number of people required to be treated to save 1 life is higher than the incidence of a patient who is treated developing permanent neurological damage or even dying? How about the lap band procedure or even gastric bypass for weight loss vs. sleeve gastrectomies? Let's not even get started on management of back pain and surgical interventions. So no, as physicians (both MD and DO) we don't always stop doing things that don't work even after solid evidence has come out.

I agree with you that there's an issue with the empirical research on OMM, but the same can be said about many treatments that are used regularly by MDs and DOs (like the lack of studies showing that using pressors for HTN actually improve long term mortality rates, as was mentioned by Psai in another thread recently). I'm not trying to defend OMM as a whole, or even most treatment modalities (though it's probably coming across that way). I'm just saying not to completely discredit every treatment modality because you hear that some are total crap or there aren't studies done yet. You also clearly haven't had an actual OMM lecture, our prof would tell us straight up beforehand which techniques he felt had legitimate efficacy and which ones we just needed to know for boards. Most DOs and DO students do have brains that we use, don't lump the very small minority who believe in crap like cranial or Chapman's points in with the vast majority of DOs who will never use OMM again after they graduate and think most of OMM shouldn't be used in almost any treatment plan.

Could you link the most evidence based of your techniques?

Imo the most legitimate techniques that I'd like to see an actual body of research on is myofascial/soft tissue release, HVLA (specifically for acute issues), and muscle energy (also known as post-isometric stretching in the PT/OT world, where there is more research on it). I'd also like to see some legitimate studies for mesenteric release for the treatment of inpatient constipation (technique is literally "releasing" the ascending, descending, and sigmoid colon to help mobilize fecal matter). Idk if the last one would show much, but I've heard enough instances of it being very successful that it's peaked my curiosity. I also personally believe that effleurage and petrissage is a legitimate treatment modality for upper and lower extremity edema, but better outcomes can be achieved with devices like SCDs and imo it's more of a historical technique than anything at this point.

Physical therapy is much more useful than OMM. And you know, has evidence behind it. Please don’t insult physical therapists by trying to minimize what they do to OMM.

Everyone knows there’s only one reason for OMM. To keep administrative jobs at DO schools. It’s a complete joke.

There are several physical therapy techniques that are literally exactly the same as OMM techniques. MR = soft tissue release. ME = post-isometric stretching. This post makes me question if you've ever actually studied any PT or been involved with that field outside of seeing patients getting walked around the wards.

I agree there's a huge administrative aspect to it, and personally wouldn't mind if COCA went away and DO medical education just merged with MD education with OMM as an elective or even just taught in certain fields of residency which focus more on the MSK system.

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

Lol, maybe in Cali, but 99% of the DOs I've talked to either laugh when I ask what they think of OMM or groan and say they wish there was more research but they'd never use it themselves. Imo most of it is irrelevant for most fields, but there are a few techniques that are very relevant to certain fields (PM&R, sports med, clinical ortho, some random cases for FM and peds, etc). Seriously, who are you hanging out with where the majority are OMM apologists? Agree that it's utility is at best limited though and that certain techniques have no business even existing.

I think you are making an artificial and false distinction between MD and DO physicians. Why is OMM unique to DOs? What is preventing MD schools from making OMM an elective? Why can't sports medicine MD docs use OMM if OMM is so effective?

I've been treated by MDs who used OMM in college. There are CME courses on OMM available for MD attendings and residents, Harvard even offered one and there are MD schools that have them for students.

Atleast we can admit when we are wrong and change guidelines. Did they stop teaching chapman points? Was the phrenology class booked? How about that derm omm?

To the bolded: *sometimes*. So do almost all DOs though, unfortunately there's a small number (mostly from the old guard) who hang on to it and continue to advocate for all modalities in the education model. Unfortunately chapman's points are still taught (for some reason), phrenology isn't OMM and has no relation, and I've never even heard of OMM techniques to treat derm conditions unless someone is implying treating edema can prevent some derm issues (which I'm guessing is not what was being presumed). Again, most of us don't believe in most of OMM and want actual research for the few modalities we feel would be useful. Your perspective on the field seems to be skewed by a lot of what is posted on SDN, which is not congruent with reality when it comes to the OMM discussion imo.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

I dont think OMM recieves the same treatment from most DOs.

Lol come on bro, you and I both know this statement is straight up garbage. 95% of us will never perform any sort of OMM anything once we graduate... It most definitely gets the same treatment.

Physical therapy is much more useful than OMM. And you know, has evidence behind it. Please don’t insult physical therapists by trying to minimize what they do to OMM

I really don’t think you even understand what PT is.... we literally learn the exact same techniques in a number of instances.

Why can't sports medicine MD docs use OMM if OMM is so effective?

There are a good chunk who do.

Besides, I'm sure there are many allopathic things out there that they try to refuse to change

*cough* knee scopes *cough*

Look Nassar is literally the scum of the earth and would have found a way to rape these women regardless of his degree. I also think the AOA needs to come out and make a statement that what Nassar was doing is completely wrong and not OMM. On top of that I am with the large majority of DO students that says that 90% of OMM is historical, steaming bull feces, but to sit here and say that Nassar has made DOs look like quacks is stupid. By that argument I could easily say all MDs are quacks and murderers because that neurosurgeon in Texas was actively killing people while operating high as a kite, or that all football coaches everywhere holding youth camps are pediphiles because Jerry Sandusky was molesting kids.

 

[sab3156]

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

Honestly, this is not true. The majority of my class right now completely hates OMM and views it as a massive waste of our time. The vast, vast majority of DOs will never practice OMM. I personally am very vocal about my opposition to teaching this nonsense in a medical school setting. There is PT school for this stuff. Some of the musculoskeletal stuff does stretch you out and make you feel good, I'll give it that. That's why OMM is the most requested medical treatment by olympic athletes. Sports teams love OMM. But it's still stupid to teach it in a medical school.

 

[flightnurse2MD]

Good news is I hear they go easy on child molesters in prison

Just ask Jared from Subway...

 

[WingedOx]

Do you have an english link to the study this doesnt really show much.

Plus, I tend to take studies involving any manipulation technique with a grain of salt large enough for a horse to lick unless it's compared to sham (as opposed to no tx).

I dove into the wormhole that is the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association a couple years ago. If you want to see some wacky AF studies, dive in and see what they're trying to claim involving OMM for psychiatric conditions.

 

[WingedOx]

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists.

ehhhhh... I really wouldn't go that far, or even close to that.

Source: I may or may not have grown up in the shadow of one of the largest Osteo training facilities in the country and PapaOx was MSUCOM faculty for a while. DOs everywhere.

 

[Stagg737]

Plus, I tend to take studies involving any manipulation technique with a grain of salt large enough for a horse to lick unless it's compared to sham (as opposed to no tx).

I dove into the wormhole that is the Journal of the American Osteopathic Association a couple years ago. If you want to see some wacky AF studies, dive in and see what they're trying to claim involving OMM for psychiatric conditions.

What? You're telling me you don't check the skull of all your depression patients to see if there's no cranial motion and is as hard as a bowling ball?!?

 

[deleted407021]

Actually most DOs are OMM apologists. The fact is there’s no evidence behind it, for some fields it is completely inappropriate (psychiatry), and in this example it was used as an excuse for rape.

Surgery is inappropriate largely for psychiatry. And many medical treatments could be used as excuses for assault. You’re not making a point.

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

So, is anybody else looking forward to practicing medicine in the "current year," where performing a necessary physical exam on the wrong #metoo female may land you in prison as a sex offender*, and not performing it to lose your house and your license?

Well, at least we get to help people!


*This is not in reference to the criminal case discussed in this thread but to something that could hypothetically happen in the current climate

 

[Microshaft]

I like how the court calls the victims "survivors"
having a female judge didn't help him at all lmfao

 

[Microshaft]

yeah the dude got roasted

 

[WingedOx]

So, is anybody else looking forward to practicing medicine in the "current year," where performing a necessary physical exam on the wrong #metoo female may land you in prison as a sex offender*, and not performing it to lose your house and your license?

Well, at least we get to help people!


*This is not in reference to the criminal case discussed in this thread but to something that could hypothetically happen in the current climate

Why are you like this?

 

[Brahnold Bloodaxe]

Why are you like this?

Because I am the hero you need, Winged Ox, not the hero you deserve. I concede that this explanation isn't very specific, but then neither is the question. Nevertheless, I hope that in due time you can exorcise your demons and learn to accept that all I have done for you I did with the utmost love.

So long for now, dear lad!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Besides, I'm sure there are many allopathic things out there that they try to refuse to change.

You wouldn’t have to look too hard to find examples (eg, fetal heart monitoring).

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

yeah the dude got roasted

****er deserved it.

Eta: my favorite is the victim who told him to have fun in hell.