OMT in Anesthesia

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i'm going to be starting D.O. school in the fall. i'm interested in Anesthesia and EM. i've searched this site and other sources and it seems that DOs barely ever use OMT in anesthesia. is this due to

1. time restrictions/high patient load
2. billing issues
3. lack of skill
4. contraindications and
5. lack of applicability of OMT
6. any conditions that could have been treated with OMT have already been treated by the time surgery rolls around

which specialties utilize (or have the potential to utilize OMT) the most? primary care specialties, sports med, physiatry, neurology, and surgical post-op procedures? it's just kinda disheartening that OMT, the major component of osteopathic medicine, isn't really even used in osteopathic medicine. but who knows, maybe i'll be jaded in a few years too.

(i also posted this in the EM forum. not trying to spam!)

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i'm going to be starting D.O. school in the fall. i'm interested in Anesthesia and EM. i've searched this site and other sources and it seems that DOs barely ever use OMT in anesthesia. is this due to

1. time restrictions/high patient load
2. billing issues
3. lack of skill
4. contraindications and
5. lack of applicability of OMT
6. any conditions that could have been treated with OMT have already been treated by the time surgery rolls around

which specialties utilize (or have the potential to utilize OMT) the most? primary care specialties, sports med, physiatry, neurology, and surgical post-op procedures? it's just kinda disheartening that OMT, the major component of osteopathic medicine, isn't really even used in osteopathic medicine. but who knows, maybe i'll be jaded in a few years too.

(i also posted this in the EM forum. not trying to spam!)

Have you had any exposure to field of anesthesiology at all? You are not going to be manipulating anyone in the pre-op area or in the OR. There is virtually no OMT application in the field unless you do pain (fellowship after anesthesiology residency). The only field that I know of that you can extensively incorporate OMT is Physiatry. Alot of DO's do very well in PM&R. Hope that helps.
 
OMT, the major component of osteopathic medicine

I would put forth quite a number of things before OMT (?history and physical) as "the major component" of osteopathic medicine.

Also, add to your differential
7. General skepticism about OMT among the MD's that overwhelmingly populate american medicine
 
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I would put forth quite a number of things before OMT (?history and physical) as "the major component" of osteopathic medicine.

Also, add to your differential
7. General skepticism about OMT among the MD's that overwhelmingly populate american medicine

Wow, wow, wow! Hang on there a minute, Mista! Yeah, we MD's know a thing or two 'bout Dr. Andrew Tyler Still. Don't mean that we have a "general skepticism about OMT that overwhelmingly populates our thinking...." Just means that we had good enough GPA's and MCAT scores to get into MD schools, that's all.... j/k ;)
 
I'm admittingly pretty ignorant to OMT, but my experience with D.O. residents, several of which are top-notch residents, ranging from internal medicine, Anes, OB/gyn to surgery is they NEVER use OMT. The exception being those interested in sports medicine or PMR. I would extend this to D.O. attendings in various specialties as well. I have no evidence as to why this is.
 
i'm going to be starting D.O. school in the fall. i'm interested in Anesthesia and EM. i've searched this site and other sources and it seems that DOs barely ever use OMT in anesthesia. is this due to

1. time restrictions/high patient load
2. billing issues
3. lack of skill
4. contraindications and
5. lack of applicability of OMT
6. any conditions that could have been treated with OMT have already been treated by the time surgery rolls around

which specialties utilize (or have the potential to utilize OMT) the most? primary care specialties, sports med, physiatry, neurology, and surgical post-op procedures? it's just kinda disheartening that OMT, the major component of osteopathic medicine, isn't really even used in osteopathic medicine. but who knows, maybe i'll be jaded in a few years too.

(i also posted this in the EM forum. not trying to spam!)
don't go to DO school. How much debt will you have coming out? How much money do you expect to make when you're done? It isn't worth it. DO schools are expensive. Docs don't make the kind of money they used to. Go into something else.
 
don't go to DO school. How much debt will you have coming out? How much money do you expect to make when you're done? It isn't worth it. DO schools are expensive. Docs don't make the kind of money they used to. Go into something else.

from just a career perspective, maybe there are better fields than medicine right now. but from DO school perspective, although you might close some doors (subspecialty surgery comes to mind), ER, anesthesia, and PM&R are definitely receptive to DOs, even at top programs.

and to the OP, for the love of god, don't listen to this dude, he's a DO hater. a few of us tried to put him in his place on this thread (click on the link) but he still pops up every now and again spewing the same trash. entertaining reading... :)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=681932&page=2
 
from just a career perspective, maybe there are better fields than medicine right now. but from DO school perspective, although you might close some doors (subspecialty surgery comes to mind), ER, anesthesia, and PM&R are definitely receptive to DOs, even at top programs.

and to the OP, for the love of god, don't listen to this dude, he's a DO hater. a few of us tried to put him in his place on this thread (click on the link) but he still pops up every now and again spewing the same trash. entertaining reading... :)

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=681932&page=2

I question that.

I wonder what your definition of "top programs" is for anesthesia.

If you're including UCSF, Stanford, MGH, BID, Duke etc in that list, that statement may not apply.

Nothing against DOs but not on par with MDs wrt applying to anesthesia.
 
I question that.

I wonder what your definition of "top programs" is for anesthesia.

If you're including UCSF, Stanford, MGH, BID, Duke etc in that list, that statement may not apply.

Nothing against DOs but not on par with MDs wrt applying to anesthesia.

yeah, definitely not on par with MDs, you will never hear me argue that. maybe not UCSF, Stanford, MGH, BID, Duke; but CCF, Mayo, Michigan, Hopkins, BWH, and Penn ain't bad.
 
yeah, definitely not on par with MDs, you will never hear me argue that. maybe not UCSF, Stanford, MGH, BID, Duke; but CCF, Mayo, Michigan, Hopkins, BWH, and Penn ain't bad.

:thumbup:

True.
 
I question that.

I wonder what your definition of "top programs" is for anesthesia.

If you're including UCSF, Stanford, MGH, BID, Duke etc in that list, that statement may not apply.

Nothing against DOs but not on par with MDs wrt applying to anesthesia.

Your a med student who just matched into anesthesia, please don't make generalizations you know nothing about. Are you a program director? did you interview any of these candidates? Did you sit on the board and listen as they decided which applicants to accept and which to deny? do you even know how many DO's applied to the above schools? Your accusations have no basis in fact and merely represent opinion. As Mista pointed out there are plenty of good DOs at top programs and there are many that have been and will continue to be good anesthesiologists.

If OP is interested in OMT and chose to go to an osteopathic school for that reason then he might want to consider a career in FP, pm&r, or some other specialty that allows him or her to open up their own clinic and use OMT as a part of their practice. While I do believe that OMT may have some place in the post op care of patients, evidence is just not there yet. The way anesthesia is practiced today does not lend itself to doing OMT. You won't find the time or have the necessary follow up to make a difference. Definatly not a good field to choose if you wish to practice OMT. On the positive side though, you have plenty of time to practice OMT and decided if this is the path you want to pursue in your career. In 3 years when you apply to match you will have much more information and a better idea of what you want to do in life
 
Your a med student who just matched into anesthesia, please don't make generalizations you know nothing about. Are you a program director? did you interview any of these candidates? Did you sit on the board and listen as they decided which applicants to accept and which to deny? do you even know how many DO's applied to the above schools? Your accusations have no basis in fact and merely represent opinion. As Mista pointed out there are plenty of good DOs at top programs and there are many that have been and will continue to be good anesthesiologists.

If OP is interested in OMT and chose to go to an osteopathic school for that reason then he might want to consider a career in FP, pm&r, or some other specialty that allows him or her to open up their own clinic and use OMT as a part of their practice. While I do believe that OMT may have some place in the post op care of patients, evidence is just not there yet. The way anesthesia is today does not lend itself to doing OMT. You won't find the time or have the necessary follow up to make a difference. not a good field to choose if you wish to practice OMT. On the positive side though, you have plenty of time to practice OMT and decided if this is the path you want to pursue in your career. In 3 years when you apply to match you will have much more information and a better idea of what you want to do in life

1. I'm not a med student.

2. I can ACCURATELY comment on this topic having been through the process myself, and having thoroughly researched the process prior to and during applications by:
i. reviewing NRMP stats
ii. lengthy discussions with PDs and chairs as well as input from other residents and other applicants, MD & DOs, in addition to a number of other avenues :rolleyes:
3. If there's anything factually inaccurate in my statements about DOs not being on par with MDs wrt applying to anesthesia, you are welcome to correct it and provide stats

4. None of my statements represent a denigration of DO training or capabilities. Your hostility is reactive and misplaced.

Whatever
 
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duplicate
 
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what the heck means OMT?
sorry my ignorance.:smuggrin:

omt = osteopathic manipulative treatment, sometimes called omm = osteopathic manipulative medicine.

essentially they are chiropractic techniques utilized by a shrinking number of DO's to relieve pain. OMM can be effective and useful in treating acute back pain , joint pain, sinus issues, but it's not a cure for anything.

OMT was the original foundation for DO's and osteopathic medicine back in the day before antibiotics or any real medicine came about, and many docs were treating patients with leeches and mercury, all that jazz. OMT has grown less popular as osteopathic medicine aligned itself with mainstream medicine, but DO schools still teach it to keep their 'unique' identity. aspects of it are dubious, especially cranial osteopathic treatment, which can claim to treat such things as down syndrome, autism, etc etc.

overall it's not a bad skill to have in an FP setting , but its not really useful anywhere else im my opinion.
 
1. I'm not a med student.

2. I can ACCURATELY comment on this topic having been through the process myself, and having thoroughly researched the process prior to and during applications by:
i. reviewing NRMP stats
ii. lengthy discussions with PDs and chairs as well as input from other residents and other applicants, MD & DOs, in addition to a number of other avenues :rolleyes:
3. If there's anything factually inaccurate in my statements about DOs not being on par with MDs wrt applying to anesthesia, you are welcome to correct it and provide stats

4. None of my statements represent a denigration of DO training or capabilities. Your hostility is reactive and misplaced.

Whatever

I think you make a good point -

osteopathic students match into great programs every year, amongst them uchicago, hopkins, etc etc, but there are some super 'high' end programs ( yale, stanford, etc ) that won't be receptive to DO students.

i don't think this has a lot to do with the fact that the DO students aren't 'as qualified' as their MD counterparts, but when you get to that level of prestige and competitiveness, everyone is just so good. for mid level or just "A-" anesthesia programs, the averages on step1 range in the 225-235 range, and the DO students who typically match here are 5-15 points higher on their step 1 compared to their allo counterparts, or are at least bringing something else extra to the table.

it's tough to pick a DO student with a 250 step1 , great grades, research, etc etc, when you have 10 applications from top tier MD students with the same stats ( or more ) for the same spots.

this may be blunt, but i feel that it's true. most great programs will easily take a DO with a 240 step1 over an equally qualified MD student with a 225. but when everyone is 'stellar', you have to sort through the applications somehow, and that's usually when the DO's, IMG's, or less prestigious MD school candidates are sorted out.
 
I think you make a good point -

osteopathic students match into great programs every year, amongst them uchicago, hopkins, etc etc, but there are some super 'high' end programs ( yale, stanford, etc ) that won't be receptive to DO students.
...period and my point exactly.

I think your buddy may have interpreted my statements as some form of deprecation. They are statements of fact, not some attempt at disparaging DO training/competency for anesthesia.


for mid level or just "A-" anesthesia programs, the averages on step1 range in the 225-235 range, and the DO students who typically match here are 5-15 points higher on their step 1 compared to their allo counterparts, or are at least bringing something else extra to the table.
QFT
Again, these are just THE facts.

For your logical response, :thumbup:

AND ANYONE WITH ENOUGH STATISTICAL EVIDENCE OR EXPERIENCE, MED STUDENT OR NOT, IS QUALIFIED TO COMMENT ON THIS TOPIC, AS YOU HAVE
.
 
The NRMP stats are facts. Saying that Yale or Stanford won't be receptive to DO applicants is opinion. Clearly a good indicator would be if they have accepted DO's in the past, which is research it appears you may not have done. But even at the places that have not yet taken a DO for residency, some excellent DO candidate could be the first. If I were that candidate, I would not put all my eggs in one basket, but I might put one egg in.:D

And ETA, as much as I like things to be spelled correctly, pointing this kind of stuff out on here to belittle someone you disagree with seems petty. Isn't it beneath you?:cool:
 
But, didn't you just match a few weeks ago? I thought you were a MSIV also. Did you take a year off? Coming from another specialty perhaps?

You are welcome to view my profile or read my previous posts.
 
The NRMP stats are facts. Saying that Yale or Stanford won't be receptive to DO applicants is opinion. Clearly a good indicator would be if they have accepted DO's in the past, which is research it appears you may not have done. But even at the places that have not yet taken a DO for residency, some excellent DO candidate could be the first. If I were that candidate, I would not put all my eggs in one basket, but I might put one egg in.:D

And ETA, as much as I like things to be spelled correctly, pointing this kind of stuff out on here to belittle someone you disagree with seems petty. Isn't it beneath you?:cool:

The DO issue is moot.
 
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Today has gotta be "chip on the shoulder" day.
 
The NRMP stats are facts. Saying that Yale or Stanford won't be receptive to DO applicants is opinion. Clearly a good indicator would be if they have accepted DO's in the past, which is research it appears you may not have done. But even at the places that have not yet taken a DO for residency, some excellent DO candidate could be the first. If I were that candidate, I would not put all my eggs in one basket, but I might put one egg in.:D

Of course all we have to go on are stats or the history of DO acceptance at these places.

I guess for you, none of that has any bearing on anything. It's all just coincidence...or...wait, what's the word I'm searching for...uh...opinion :rolleyes:
 
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bringing it back to the original topic, as others have pointed out, you will likely NOT use any OMT in the OR (which is where you will spend most of your time). Most people graduating from DO school will not use that aspect of your medical school training during their residency if at all (i say most, excluding some - before someone decides to point out the exceptions).
 
per profile: I was done with med school almost a year ago.
 
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Today has gotta be "chip on the shoulder" day.

ng7rqp_th.jpg


For the sake of Tommy Lee Jones, remove all chips from shoulders.

Thank you DO compatriots.
 
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Isn't OMT just an excuse to start unapproved medical schools? Why would anyone continue the charade once in practice?
 
i'm going to be starting D.O. school in the fall. i'm interested in Anesthesia and EM. i've searched this site and other sources and it seems that DOs barely ever use OMT in anesthesia. is this due to

1. time restrictions/high patient load
2. billing issues
3. lack of skill
4. contraindications and
5. lack of applicability of OMT
6. any conditions that could have been treated with OMT have already been treated by the time surgery rolls around

which specialties utilize (or have the potential to utilize OMT) the most? primary care specialties, sports med, physiatry, neurology, and surgical post-op procedures? it's just kinda disheartening that OMT, the major component of osteopathic medicine, isn't really even used in osteopathic medicine. but who knows, maybe i'll be jaded in a few years too.

(i also posted this in the EM forum. not trying to spam!)

A pain practice would probably be the only practical use for OMT as an anesthesiologist.

And OMT is not the major component of osteopathic medicine, modern evidence-based medicine is. OMM is presented as an extra tool/skill that can developed and utilized in certain specialties (the ones you mentioned), if you want.
 
A pain practice would probably be the only practical use for OMT as an anesthesiologist.

And OMT is not the major component of osteopathic medicine, modern evidence-based medicine is. OMM is presented as an extra tool/skill that can developed and utilized in certain specialties (the ones you mentioned), if you want.

right, but that's not something exclusive to osteopathic medical schools, is it?

sorry, but i hate it when DO students talk about evidence based medicine as if it were AT still's osteopathic idea, it wasn't. being 'holistic' and 'caring for the patient' isn't something unique to us either.

the only thing that sets an osteopathic curricula apart from an allopathic one is OMT. OMT was originally all that was included in osteopathic medicine.
 
right, but that's not something exclusive to osteopathic medical schools, is it?

sorry, but i hate it when DO students talk about evidence based medicine as if it were AT still's osteopathic idea, it wasn't. being 'holistic' and 'caring for the patient' isn't something unique to us either.

the only thing that sets an osteopathic curricula apart from an allopathic one is OMT. OMT was originally all that was included in osteopathic medicine.

Dude, chill. That was exactly my point. Not sure who you've been talking to, but I have never heard any DO students claim evidence-based medicine is somehow unique to DO schools; that would be asinine.
 
In retrospect, I refuse to believe that one came down from his/her almighty-attending-ship to insert oneself into this minor and inconsequential imbroglio.

thkyosn.gif





sorry to derail.

Back to original topic.

Not sure what you are talking about. I was only commenting based on my recollection of your previous posts. Perhaps I mis-remembered? I was thinking that you were discussing recent interviews. The issue is not important enough to me to read your profile though. Not sure why you are turning your anger towards me.
 
Still mildly confused by the whole 2 different types of doctors who (depending on who you ask) may or may not actually be different....but anyway back to the OP - what's the link in your mind between anaesthesia and manipulation?????? Methinks you need to actually spend some time finding out what anaesthetists actually do.

And is this manipulation stuff the same sort of thing that chiropractors do? Ie the same stuff that our radiology department has to MRI people to diagnose their vertebral artery ruptures?
 
Still mildly confused by the whole 2 different types of doctors who (depending on who you ask) may or may not actually be different....but anyway back to the OP - what's the link in your mind between anaesthesia and manipulation?????? Methinks you need to actually spend some time finding out what anaesthetists actually do.

And is this manipulation stuff the same sort of thing that chiropractors do? Ie the same stuff that our radiology department has to MRI people to diagnose their vertebral artery ruptures?

yes, OMT/OMM practiced by D.O's is essentially the same thing chiropractors learn, give or take a few techniques and details. the two types of medicine are different in history and original philosophy, but are virtually identical in modern day education and practice.
 
Dude, chill. That was exactly my point. Not sure who you've been talking to, but I have never heard any DO students claim evidence-based medicine is somehow unique to DO schools; that would be asinine.

my bad, misinterpreted your previous post.:thumbup:
 
you guys all missed my original point. DO schools are MUCH more expensive than MD schools.

facts are facts, DO school will put you into a huge debt hole. And the way medicine is going its just not worth that kind of debt.
 
you guys all missed my original point. DO schools are MUCH more expensive than MD schools.

facts are facts, DO school will put you into a huge debt hole. And the way medicine is going its just not worth that kind of debt.

yes, if youre comparing it to a in-state public Med school , it's usually twice as much, but when it comes to private schools,
not necessarily. there are plenty of DO schools whose tuition rates linger in the 20k-30k/year range, which is pretty standard for most private MD schools. the MOST expensive DO schools are around 48-50k/ year, which is also comparable to a 40k or so average for a lot of private medical schools.

not a huge difference at the end of the day.
 
you guys all missed my original point. DO schools are MUCH more expensive than MD schools.

facts are facts, DO school will put you into a huge debt hole. And the way medicine is going its just not worth that kind of debt.

This is a common misconception by people who aren't DOs. Tuition to DO schools is the same as many MD schools.

Allopathic:...........................Osteopathic:
NYMC ($41,500).................NYCOM (41,000)
Harvard ($39,900)...............LECOM (26,000)
UPenn ($41,036).................UNECOM (42,000)
Drexel ($44,000).................NSUCOM (32,000)
JHU ($38,000).....................OUCOM (25,000 resident, 35,000 non-res)
Duke ($41,000)...................TUNCOM (42,000)
Univ Chicago ($37,000)........KCOM (39,000)
Vanderbilt ($38,400)............PCSOM (32,800)
Cornell ($41,730).................VCOM (33,000)
Case Western ($42,000)
Creighton ($42,612)

There are also state DO schools as well with cheaper tuition (WVSOM=$20,000, UMDNJ=$21,000, MSUCOM=$21,000). Compare these to state MD schools which are all in the same $22,000 range.
 
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This is a common misconception by people who aren't DOs. Tuition to DO schools is the same as many MD schools.

Allopathic:...........................Osteopathic:
NYMC ($41,500).................NYCOM (41,000)
Harvard ($39,900)...............LECOM (26,000)
UPenn ($41,036).................UNECOM (42,000)
Drexel ($44,000).................NSUCOM (32,000)
JHU ($38,000).....................OUCOM (25,000 resident, 35,000 non-res)
Duke ($41,000)...................TUNCOM (42,000)
Univ Chicago ($37,000)........KCOM (39,000)
Vanderbilt ($38,400)............PCSOM (32,800)
Cornell ($41,730).................VCOM (33,000)
Case Western ($42,000)
Creighton ($42,612)

There are also state DO schools as well with cheaper tuition (WVSOM=$20,000, UMDNJ=$21,000, MSUCOM=$21,000). Compare these to state MD schools which are all in the same $22,000 range.

:thumbup:

Surfer said:
you guys all missed my original point. DO schools are MUCH more expensive than MD schools.

facts are facts, DO school will put you into a huge debt hole. And the way medicine is going its just not worth that kind of debt.

:slap:
surfer, i'm sure you are a really smart guy who knows a lot of stuff, but you should really just stop posting on threads related to DOs. you are just making yourself look misinformed repeatedly.
 
I start residency next year.

I'm going to be doing some serious OMT in the OR.

Peak pressures too high? Nothing a little rib raising can't help.

BIS number off? Cranial to the rescue.
 
I start residency next year.

I'm going to be doing some serious OMT in the OR.

Peak pressures too high? Nothing a little rib raising can't help.

BIS number off? Cranial to the rescue.

if you're good enough at cranial you don't even need to use drugs...you can slow the whole body's breathing mechanism down by controlling the Cranial rhythmic impulse and temporal bone movement.

don't forget to do a little muscle energy sacrum stretch on your pregnant patients after an epidural.
 
if you're good enough at cranial you don't even need to use drugs...you can slow the whole body's breathing mechanism down by controlling the Cranial rhythmic impulse and temporal bone movement.

don't forget to do a little muscle energy sacrum stretch on your pregnant patients after an epidural.


vomit.jpg
 
I'm just a med student (DO btw), but I say give the OP a break...he or she will learn pretty quickly how OMT may or may not be used in various settings. A huuuge proportion (virtually all) of DO grads practice identically to allopathic doctors all within the same systems/hospitals. A DO in a mixed or predominantly MD group can't logistically spend an extra 15 minutes employing OMT on a lung dysfunction (for instance). The billing is more complicated and it will drastically slow down volume. In MOST settings these days it's just not practical within the current system to truly be an osteopathic doctor, especially specialist...and MOST DO's appear to prefer it this way.

In the past year I've become increasingly interested in these MD/DO issues (not the bs applicant stuff), politics, perceptions, biases, etc...I think that a lot of people (MD and DO students) don't realize the complexity of certain issues. A couple come to mind...

only a very small number of US physicians are D.O.'s...then, when people see 4 attending D.O.'s in a particular department, their conclusion is that they were the lucky few who "broke down the barrier." STATISTICALLY, D.O.'s are appropriately represented in many top hospitals throughout the country.

Further, I'm going to unfairly point the finger for a minute and say that a lot of MD's are still insanely closed-minded about what DO's can and cannot do. Read a book, talk to a D.O., heck, go to wikipedia! It barely takes any effort at all to google a few top departments/hospitals and take a look at an attending list or a resident list to see that D.O's are appropriately represented and it's only getting better much to people's chagrin.

Another interesting issue is the decision-making process for osteopathic boards and politics...I'm sincerely not here to "push any buttons", but in my short time in an osteopathic medical school, i've been able to conclude that "our" most important decisions are being made by the small 1% of DO's who are technically and philosophically distinct from MD's. I'll even take that a step further and make the inflammatory remark that most decisions regarding our (DO's) future are not being made with the interests of the majority at heart...don't have any evidence of this, I just like to take in the gossip...

Let's call a spade a spade....a lot of MD's are disillusioned by DO's competing for their residency and attending spots because most think we never should have gone to medical school in the first place and perhaps we have used a back-door approach. This excuse is simply no longer working. I am shocked by the number of students in my class that had mid-30's MCATS and stellar GPA's and ONLY applied to osteopathic schools because 1) they truly wanted to be osteopathic physicians, or 2) have DO parents and had early and significant exposure to osteopathic medicine. Pursuant to fairness, however, there ARE also a number of students who had no prayer at allopathic schools. This being said, though, these will not likely be the students competing for your better allopathic residency spots...

Osteopathic students, residents, and attendings have invariably proven that the individual student is far more important than the school from which one graduates.

Just my opinion here. I'm just a med student, though. I just think people should check their egos in all walks of life.
 
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I'm just a med student (DO btw), but I say give the OP a break...he or she will learn pretty quickly how OMT may or may not be used in various settings. A huuuge proportion (virtually all) of DO grads practice identically to allopathic doctors all within the same systems/hospitals. A DO in a mixed or predominantly MD group can't logistically spend an extra 15 minutes employing OMT on a lung dysfunction (for instance). The billing is more complicated and it will drastically slow down volume. In MOST settings these days it's just not practical within the current system to truly be an osteopathic doctor, especially specialist...and MOST DO's appear to prefer it this way.

In the past year I've become increasingly interested in these MD/DO issues (not the bs applicant stuff), politics, perceptions, biases, etc...I think that a lot of people (MD and DO students) don't realize the complexity of certain issues. A couple come to mind...

only a very small number of US physicians are D.O.'s...then, when people see 4 attending D.O.'s in a particular department, their conclusion is that they were the lucky few who "broke down the barrier." STATISTICALLY, D.O.'s are appropriately represented in many top hospitals throughout the country.

Further, I'm going to unfairly point the finger for a minute and say that a lot of MD's are still insanely closed-minded about what DO's can and cannot do. Read a book, talk to a D.O., heck, go to wikipedia! It barely takes any effort at all to google a few top departments/hospitals and take a look at an attending list or a resident list to see that D.O's are appropriately represented and it's only getting better much to people's chagrin.

Another interesting issue is the decision-making process for osteopathic boards and politics...I'm sincerely not here to "push any buttons", but in my short time in an osteopathic medical school, i've been able to conclude that "our" most important decisions are being made by the small 1% of DO's who are technically and philosophically distinct from MD's. I'll even take that a step further and make the inflammatory remark that most decisions regarding our (DO's) future are not being made with the interests of the majority at heart...don't have any evidence of this, I just like to take in the gossip...

Let's call a spade a spade....a lot of MD's are disillusioned by DO's competing for their residency and attending spots because most think we never should have gone to medical school in the first place and perhaps we have used a back-door approach. This excuse is simply no longer working. I am shocked by the number of students in my class that had mid-30's MCATS and stellar GPA's and ONLY applied to osteopathic schools because 1) they truly wanted to be osteopathic physicians, or 2) have DO parents and had early and significant exposure to osteopathic medicine. Pursuant to fairness, however, there ARE also a number of students who had no prayer at allopathic schools. This being said, though, these will not likely be the students competing for your better allopathic residency spots...

Osteopathic students, residents, and attendings have invariably proven that the individual student is far more important than the school from which one graduates from.

Just my opinion here. I'm just a med student, though. I just think people should check their egos in all walks of life.

This basically sums up the issue. Couldn't have said it better.
 
I'm just a med student (DO btw), but I say give the OP a break...he or she will learn pretty quickly how OMT may or may not be used in various settings. A huuuge proportion (virtually all) of DO grads practice identically to allopathic doctors all within the same systems/hospitals. A DO in a mixed or predominantly MD group can't logistically spend an extra 15 minutes employing OMT on a lung dysfunction (for instance). The billing is more complicated and it will drastically slow down volume. In MOST settings these days it's just not practical within the current system to truly be an osteopathic doctor, especially specialist...and MOST DO's appear to prefer it this way.

In the past year I've become increasingly interested in these MD/DO issues (not the bs applicant stuff), politics, perceptions, biases, etc...I think that a lot of people (MD and DO students) don't realize the complexity of certain issues. A couple come to mind...

only a very small number of US physicians are D.O.'s...then, when people see 4 attending D.O.'s in a particular department, their conclusion is that they were the lucky few who "broke down the barrier." STATISTICALLY, D.O.'s are appropriately represented in many top hospitals throughout the country.

Further, I'm going to unfairly point the finger for a minute and say that a lot of MD's are still insanely closed-minded about what DO's can and cannot do. Read a book, talk to a D.O., heck, go to wikipedia! It barely takes any effort at all to google a few top departments/hospitals and take a look at an attending list or a resident list to see that D.O's are appropriately represented and it's only getting better much to people's chagrin.

Another interesting issue is the decision-making process for osteopathic boards and politics...I'm sincerely not here to "push any buttons", but in my short time in an osteopathic medical school, i've been able to conclude that "our" most important decisions are being made by the small 1% of DO's who are technically and philosophically distinct from MD's. I'll even take that a step further and make the inflammatory remark that most decisions regarding our (DO's) future are not being made with the interests of the majority at heart...don't have any evidence of this, I just like to take in the gossip...

Let's call a spade a spade....a lot of MD's are disillusioned by DO's competing for their residency and attending spots because most think we never should have gone to medical school in the first place and perhaps we have used a back-door approach. This excuse is simply no longer working. I am shocked by the number of students in my class that had mid-30's MCATS and stellar GPA's and ONLY applied to osteopathic schools because 1) they truly wanted to be osteopathic physicians, or 2) have DO parents and had early and significant exposure to osteopathic medicine. Pursuant to fairness, however, there ARE also a number of students who had no prayer at allopathic schools. This being said, though, these will not likely be the students competing for your better allopathic residency spots...

Osteopathic students, residents, and attendings have invariably proven that the individual student is far more important than the school from which one graduates from.

Just my opinion here. I'm just a med student, though. I just think people should check their egos in all walks of life.

I don't think MD students care about competition from DO students. DO schools are essentially MD schools with a little extra BS in your training. Just drop the manipulation and convert to MD schools. If you want to be a quack, go to chiropractors school. There is no good reason for DO's to exist. We need to be a unified front against nurse practice creep, but having multiple types of real doctors just adds to the confusion.
 
Completely agree. Perhaps many of these issues will change drastically over the next decade.
 
Originally Posted by wanttogohome
I'm just a med student (DO btw), but I say give the OP a break...he or she will learn pretty quickly how OMT may or may not be used in various settings. A huuuge proportion (virtually all) of DO grads practice identically to allopathic doctors all within the same systems/hospitals. A DO in a mixed or predominantly MD group can't logistically spend an extra 15 minutes employing OMT on a lung dysfunction (for instance). The billing is more complicated and it will drastically slow down volume. In MOST settings these days it's just not practical within the current system to truly be an osteopathic doctor, especially specialist...and MOST DO's appear to prefer it this way.

In the past year I've become increasingly interested in these MD/DO issues (not the bs applicant stuff), politics, perceptions, biases, etc...I think that a lot of people (MD and DO students) don't realize the complexity of certain issues. A couple come to mind...

only a very small number of US physicians are D.O.'s...then, when people see 4 attending D.O.'s in a particular department, their conclusion is that they were the lucky few who "broke down the barrier." STATISTICALLY, D.O.'s are appropriately represented in many top hospitals throughout the country.

Further, I'm going to unfairly point the finger for a minute and say that a lot of MD's are still insanely closed-minded about what DO's can and cannot do. Read a book, talk to a D.O., heck, go to wikipedia! It barely takes any effort at all to google a few top departments/hospitals and take a look at an attending list or a resident list to see that D.O's are appropriately represented and it's only getting better much to people's chagrin.

Another interesting issue is the decision-making process for osteopathic boards and politics...I'm sincerely not here to "push any buttons", but in my short time in an osteopathic medical school, i've been able to conclude that "our" most important decisions are being made by the small 1% of DO's who are technically and philosophically distinct from MD's. I'll even take that a step further and make the inflammatory remark that most decisions regarding our (DO's) future are not being made with the interests of the majority at heart...don't have any evidence of this, I just like to take in the gossip...

Let's call a spade a spade....a lot of MD's are disillusioned by DO's competing for their residency and attending spots because most think we never should have gone to medical school in the first place and perhaps we have used a back-door approach. This excuse is simply no longer working. I am shocked by the number of students in my class that had mid-30's MCATS and stellar GPA's and ONLY applied to osteopathic schools because 1) they truly wanted to be osteopathic physicians, or 2) have DO parents and had early and significant exposure to osteopathic medicine. Pursuant to fairness, however, there ARE also a number of students who had no prayer at allopathic schools. This being said, though, these will not likely be the students competing for your better allopathic residency spots...
I don't think MD students care about competition from DO students. DO schools are essentially MD schools with a little extra BS in your training.
:laugh:
you said it.
competition? Really?






We need to be a unified front against nurse practice creep, but having multiple types of real doctors just adds to the confusion.
:thumbup::thumbup:
 
i think most DO students would be fine with converting DO schools to MD schools and uniting the degrees. i just don't think it'll happen, there are too many DO's in administration still obsessed with maintaining OMT/ 'unique identities' ( whatever that is )
 
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