Online Graduate Degrees: Good Enough?

[DayKD]

I'm new to these forums and need some advice. I'm currently a senior in my psychology bachelors (graduating in May 2017). The closest grad schools for psychology are 40 minutes to an hour away. Because of this, I would prefer to get my master's and Psy.D online. My issue is that two psychology professors (one is my advisor) basically told me online degrees are useless and I need to find an on-campus program. What are your opinions on getting one or both of these degrees online? I called the Ohio Board of Psychology and was told the program just needed to be accreditted (which almost all programs I considered are). If you have gotten either or both of these degrees online, did you have problems getting licensed or employed? If you have any suggestions for online psychology programs (preferably clinical), that would also be wonderful!

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[PsychPhDone]

I'm new to these forums and need some advice. I'm currently a senior in my psychology bachelors (graduating in May 2017). The closest grad schools for psychology are 40 minutes to an hour away. Because of this, I would prefer to get my master's and Psy.D online. My issue is that two psychology professors (one is my advisor) basically told me online degrees are useless and I need to find an on-campus program. What are your opinions on getting one or both of these degrees online? I called the Ohio Board of Psychology and was told the program just needed to be accreditted (which almost all programs I considered are). If you have gotten either or both of these degrees online, did you have problems getting licensed or employed? If you have any suggestions for online psychology programs (preferably clinical), that would also be wonderful!

 

[deleted343839]

Your professor is correct. Doctoral training in psychology is a full-time endeavor and it is impossible to achieve the same type and caliber of experiences online that you would receive in a high-quality training program. The only people who will try to persuade you otherwise fall into two categories: (1) those who want your money and (2) those who want your validation for their own poor educational choices. Admission to accredited programs is competitive and people often move across the country to attend good programs.

 

[erg923]

The closest grad schools for psychology are 40 minutes to an hour away. Because of this, I would prefer to get my master's and Psy.D online.

Uh, Is this serious? I would seriously question your motivation and commitment to this field if so.

40 minutes is probably half of this country's daily work commute due to rush hour traffic congestion? It took me 30 minutes to get to my high school in the morning....

 

[AcronymAllergy]

Agreed with the above: entirely-online programs are questionable enough when it comes to various masters degrees; they're outright insufficient when it comes to a doctorate, particularly in a field involving direct patient-related training and care.

Ask yourself--would you consider it appropriate for a physician to earn their MD or DO online? If they did, would you want yourself or your family to be their patient?

 

[Peacemaker36]

It baffles me that online clinical psychology schools exist. I just can't understand how these schools would provide adequate instruction and supervision. I do know that some reputable brick-and-mortar universities such as Columbia and BU offer online social work degrees. I find that similarly baffling.

That said, the online movement continues to encroach upon our society. There is also a proliferation of technology-assisted therapies. I don't think we are far away from third-party insurers reimbursing for an A.I. CBT therapy session.

 

[PsyDr]

I'm not surprised that someone who is too lazy to consider a 40 minute commute is too lazy to do a basic search on this forum. You might have seen both employers and dots outright saying that applications from online school graduates in the trash.

From an employers perspective, I consider people from online schools ridiculously poorly trained, lazy, and entitled. In a productivity based profession, there's no reason to bother hiring a person whose work ethic is so low that they refuse to do the same training as everyone else in the profession. And the liability of trying to defend the screw ups of someone who has less training than the rest of the field isn't worth the hassle.

 

[erg923]

I'm not surprised that someone who is too lazy to consider a 40 minute commute is too lazy to do a basic search on this forum. You might have seen both employers and dots outright saying that applications from online school graduates in the trash.

From an employers perspective, I consider people from online schools ridiculously poorly trained, lazy, and entitled. In a productivity based profession, there's no reason to bother hiring a person whose work ethic is so low that they refuse to do the same training as everyone else in the profession. And the liability of trying to defend the screw ups of someone who has less training than the rest of the field isn't worth the hassle.

I am always curious where these people work. I have been in 3 different states and involved in the MH arena for over 10 years. I have NEVER actually met practitioner from one of these programs. The one person I have met from Capella (not in a professional capacity) was likely more mentally aberrant that any potential patients see may be seeing as part of her training.

 

[PsyDr]

I am always curious where these people work. I have been in 3 different states and involved in the MH arena for over 10 years. I have NEVER actually met practitioner from one of these programs. The one person I have met from Capella (not in a professional capacity) was likely more mentally aberrant that any potential patients see may be seeing as part of her training.

I've never met a doctoral one. An IME company that hired me once had an MA graduate of one of these programs who worked as a quality analyst for like $12/hr.

 

[DayKD]

I am always curious where these people work. I have been in 3 different states and involved in the MH arena for over 10 years. I have NEVER actually met practitioner from one of these programs. The one person I have met from Capella (not in a professional capacity) was likely more mentally aberrant that any potential patients see may be seeing as part of her training.

My sister in law received her master's degree (online) in counseling from a reputable school. She is an LPC and works in an outpatient behavioral health facility. Her degree also involved in person classes at least twice. She did her practicum in person with a licensed therapist. She had no problems with getting hired despite having a degree that was almost completely online. My question is, how did she have no issues getting into the mental health field if online degrees are discouraged? Many of the degrees I looked at also involved in person internships and practicums. At least for my master's degree, why should it matter? What if the degree comes from a reputable, accredited school that offers online degrees? At my university, we have regional campuses and the main campus. If you get a degree offered exclusively on the regional campuses, it looks like it came from the main campus. There is no distinction that the degree was from the regionals. How would this be different in my sister in law's case? I'm almost sure that it doesn't say "___ University Online". I am not looking at the schools that everyone knows are online (Capella, Walden, etc.). Right now, I'm considering getting my master's degree from a reputable university that offers online degrees.

 

[erg923]

My sister in law received her master's degree (online) in counseling from a reputable school. She is an LPC and works in an outpatient behavioral health facility. Her degree also involved in person classes at least twice. She did her practicum in person with a licensed therapist. She had no problems with getting hired despite having a degree that was almost completely online. My question is, how did she have no issues getting into the mental health field if online degrees are discouraged? Many of the degrees I looked at also involved in person internships and practicums. At least for my master's degree, why should it matter? What if the degree comes from a reputable, accredited school that offers online degrees? At my university, we have regional campuses and the main campus. If you get a degree offered exclusively on the regional campuses, it looks like it came from the main campus. There is no distinction that the degree was from the regionals. How would this be different in my sister in law's case? I'm almost sure that it doesn't say "___ University Online". I am not looking at the schools that everyone knows are online (Capella, Walden, etc.). Right now, I'm considering getting my master's degree from a reputable university that offers online degrees.

You were asking about getting your ph.d or psyd online., were you not? Whole different ballgame than getting a masters in counseling.

The fact that you want to get an online degree and then hide the fact that you got an online degree is interesting, don't you think? Seems you have some cognitive dissonance? This is actually encouraging, as it show you are at least insightful on some level that this is not a good idea.

Again, beyond this, this is a productivity based profession...and it requires a commitment to science, service, and long-hours. Not wanting to even drive 40 minutes to get training shows a poor work ethic/commitment. I too would not consider hiring someone who has made active efforts to avoid the sacrifices that 99% of the rest of us did, and who actively avoided rigorous training programs in favor of less rigorous training programs.

Anything worth doing is worth doing right.

 

[WisNeuro]

These degrees are indeed useless. When internship and postdoc applications roll in, these applications immediately find their way into the circular filing bin. For those that don't know what that is, I'm saying we put these applications with the rest of the trash.

 

[PsyDr]

My sister in law received her master's degree (online) in counseling from a reputable school. She is an LPC and works in an outpatient behavioral health facility. Her degree also involved in person classes at least twice. She did her practicum in person with a licensed therapist. She had no problems with getting hired despite having a degree that was almost completely online. My question is, how did she have no issues getting into the mental health field if online degrees are discouraged? Many of the degrees I looked at also involved in person internships and practicums. At least for my master's degree, why should it matter? What if the degree comes from a reputable, accredited school that offers online degrees? At my university, we have regional campuses and the main campus. If you get a degree offered exclusively on the regional campuses, it looks like it came from the main campus. There is no distinction that the degree was from the regionals. How would this be different in my sister in law's case? I'm almost sure that it doesn't say "___ University Online". I am not looking at the schools that everyone knows are online (Capella, Walden, etc.). Right now, I'm considering getting my master's degree from a reputable university that offers online degrees.

The first question is about an outlier. Generalizing that experience is not productive. It's like asking how a fat guy you know dates models.

The second part is that admissions people and employers will absolutely ask you and your professors about your training. Due diligence and all.

 

[erg923]

The first question is about an outlier. Generalizing that experience is not productive. It's like asking how a fat guy you know dates models.

Kevin James

 

[CheetahGirl]

I'd like to add that what seems to be missing from an online MH degree is the interpersonal exchange during coursework and all the implicit learning that comes with it. Implicit communication is key when dealing with actual patients, and you learn more about yourself when you have that exchange in your classes and with your cohort.

I have a good friend that got his MBA online. He'd fly in from West Coast (as he traveled for work) and we'd work in parallel on our graduate papers together. For his degree, I could see how the brief exchange with professors and/or even online discussions with his classmates were beneficial to his learning and clarification of subject matter, but it is an entirely different ballgame when you are discussing something as sensitive as, say...the first admission of childhood sexual abuse by your client/patient. By the time, you actually have a client/patient reveal something so delicate (as a way to join and learn to trust you, the therapist), you (hopefully) would have discussed possible patient reactions, related interpersonal reactions, and YOUR reactions within the intimacy of (hopefully) a small cohort. Hopefully, you would have had the opportunity to blurt out "OH, gross" in the comfort of your classmates and professor if that was your initial reaction...or maybe if you're less sophomoric, you may have had the chance to express your anger and disgust with the adults involved, again within the confines of others you trust in training...as well as hear their possible reactions to the sample case. For a hypothetical patient to see you 'flinch' (not saying you would) could be detrimental to the treatment (b/c perhaps every other person flinched when this disclosure came about) and the hypothetical patient was hoping for something new and different with you (as their therapist) to facilitate healing.

Now, in-person supervision (I should HOPE so), and in-person practicums (Ummm....how would you learn the trade otherwise?) are necessities(!). And there is a parallel process that you learn in brick and mortar institutions that I just do not understand how this could be practiced in an online forum before the person is unleashed into the world as a "professional.'

This is just one of many examples of why in-person mental health training is vital, and online degrees do not benefit the trainee or field as a whole. In-person yields much more exposure to all the factors that are necessities, and should never be conceived of as "bonuses,' (i.e., oh, we had in-person supervision; oh, we were placed in practicums to see actual cases - uh, please makes sure you have malpractice insurance if this was not the case...yikes! ).

P.S. ...And I don't want to even discuss the 40-minute commute. High school kids in NYC have longer commutes every day (to and fro), especially if they get into their specialized high school of choice. Starting 'em young.

 

[GoPokes]

What are your opinions on getting one or both of these degrees online?

I think given the responses you've received here from professionals in the field (some of which are part of the review/hiring/internship process) along with the general consensus about these degrees that are available in other threads about this topic, it should tell you a lot about how this degree will be perceived when you intend to apply for jobs, etc.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

1. If you can't commit to a traditional program (in person, at a college/university), then you will be at a severe disadvantage in the job market.

2. Online training for grad psych is not held in high regard...and that phrasing is being generous.

3. I would never hire, refer to, or trust the professional opinion of someone w. an online grad psych degree.

 

[Istilldontknow]

40 mins? Most people in this field relocate entirely to get proper training. If you cant do an.hour in traffic, youre not going to be able to handle 40+ hrs of schoolwork everyweek.

 

[smalltownpsych]

My commute in grad school was well over 40 minutes at times, depending on traffic. I usually left home about an hour and a half before a class and if I made it quicker, then there was always work to catch up on. Several of my practicum placements could be even further. In fact, a two hour commute home one Friday afternoon was the deciding factor to apply solely to internships outside the state of California.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Also, I'll add my vote to the No for online degrees. I have had some experience working with some of them and found the level of training woefully inadequate and a setup for misrepresentation when they can't get licensed as a psychologist, but think they are equivalent. Can I vote No again? I feel that strongly about it. I also think the online counseling degrees are inadequate and I have had many of the more ethical and aware of them want me to help them which I can't and won't do without getting paid so they ended up getting substandard supervision from other counselors who got online degrees. It becomes the blind leading the blind.

 

[MCParent]

I've been on committees where we've chucked online doc applicants, is that close enough?

 

[entitlement]

Not to add to all the negativity but I really think this can't be stressed enough - online degrees are just a bad idea all around. Review committees I've been on both for internship and postdocs have definitely not even continued to look at any application that came from an online program. Are there seriously APA-accredited online PsyDs and PhDs?! I'm familiar with the unaccredited ones but did not realize there are actually accredited ones. If this is true, we really need to start advocating for changes on the APA accreditation process.

Also, to add what others said about the commute, I commute to work 30-40 minutes on a bike, or one hour on the subway, and I basically work and live in the same city. I really hope that was a typing error but considering how hard you are pushing for folks to tell you online degrees are a good idea I'm going to gather that it was not.

On a related note, I taught one online class for some extra $$ a few years back for an entirely online MA psychology program. Students in that online program complained incessantly to the head of the department that I assigned too much work because they were spending 5-6 hours a week on my class (mind you, this is online, so they don't need to sit in class) and it was interfering with their jobs. I never taught there again and I think this is largely the type of student that applies for these places. Basically, give me a degree in exchange for my money, but don't expect me to do much. And this is the type of student I think of when I think of online programs, so I will never, ever hesitate to throw your application in the trash, no matter what else you may have done.

And to be fair, many students applying and entering online, diploma mill type programs are also students from underrepresented and disadvantaged backgrounds, who didn't have good mentoring, resources, or knowledge to know whether a program is good or not. This does not seem to be your case at all - you have TWO faculty members telling you this is a bad idea, that is two more than other students would have, not to mention your ability to find and access these forums. You do not sound ready to enter graduate school - take some time to think about what you are willing to work hard for in your life, because this doesn't sound like its it at this point in time. Maybe unnecessarily harsh but you will be better off in the long run and definitely save yourself some money and time.

 

[Ceke2002]

Offering up a different perspective, but I think it depends on where you are and what sort of quality control the online course has in place. Here, in Australia, there is an online Bachelor's Degree in Psychology offered through one of the Universities in Melbourne (that's a part of the Open Universities program), and it is actually set up as a proper degree, with the backing and approval of the Australian Psychology Accreditation Council. So completing that degree, even though it's primarily an online course, will allow you to then apply for honours/masters levels study (which can't be done online), and also will allow you to potentially be eventually licensed as a practicing Psychologist. It's the one I'm hoping to do next year, which I was going to do this year but had to withdraw my application from, because my health decided to go **** itself.

Compare that though to some of the other 'online study course' type cr@p that has been popping up lately (You too can get your diploma out of a Weeties box Oh FFS ) and I can definitely see the other side to this.

I take it in the US there's not so much of the former, and WAY more of the latter?

 

[smalltownpsych]

Offering up a different perspective, but I think it depends on where you are and what sort of quality control the online course has in place. Here, in Australia, there is an online Bachelor's Degree in Psychology offered through one of the Universities in Melbourne (that's a part of the Open Universities program), and it is actually set up as a proper degree, with the backing and approval of the Australian Psychology Accreditation Council. So completing that degree, even though it's primarily an online course, will allow you to then apply for honours/masters levels study (which can't be done online), and also will allow you to potentially be eventually licensed as a practicing Psychologist. It's the one I'm hoping to do next year, which I was going to do this year but had to withdraw my application from, because my health decided to go **** itself.

Compare that though to some of the other 'online study course' type cr@p that has been popping up lately (You too can get your diploma out of a Weeties box Oh FFS ) and I can definitely see the other side to this.

I take it in the US there's not so much of the former, and WAY more of the latter?

Yes. Also, we are talking about post-graduate work here so it is roughly equivalent to what you are saying about down under. The doctorate programs in psychology here would be difficult to gain admissions to if your bachelors was from an online university for a variety of factors. Obtaining both the required internship and licensure to practice as a psychologist in the US with an online doctorate is impossible in most states and extremely difficult in the few that would allow it.

 

[Ceke2002]

Yes. Also, we are talking about post-graduate work here so it is roughly equivalent to what you are saying about down under. The doctorate programs in psychology here would be difficult to gain admissions to if your bachelors was from an online university for a variety of factors. Obtaining both the required internship and licensure to practice as a psychologist in the US with an online doctorate is impossible in most states and extremely difficult in the few that would allow it.

Ah, I see. Yes, in that case, that is completely in line with how it is here as well. There is no way you could do a Post Grad online and then expect to be let into a Doctorate program. The undergrad course that is offered is no different to the course you would be doing if you were actually attending the University itself (it's just conducted online, obviously), but after that you have to attend a University if you want to go any further.

 

[DayKD]

I'm just going to address all of the posters here. Some of you gave good advice in a polite manner. Thank you for that. Others just came off as rude and unprofessional. Heres an update on what I have decided. I have found a program (on campus) that I am very interested in. The school I thought was 40 minutes away isn't as far as I thought (and actually a shorter commute time). The distance is no longer an issue since I did a bit of research on the location. However, calling me "lazy" as mentioned before is just rude. No one on here knows my reasons for asking about online degrees. I do not want to go into a a lot of detail, but the biggest factor is the cost. I can't afford to relocate AND spend thousands of dollars on degrees. Yes, I know it is expensive, but it would be easier (and cheaper) if I can stay where I currently live and commute. I have found one school nearby (APA accredited) that I will likely apply to. Now, if anyone would be willing to answer this, can you go into a Psy.D without a master's degree? The program I am looking at sounded like this is the case, however, I haven't received any information from the school yet. The admissions page says, "The applicant must possess a bachelor's or master's degree or their equivalent from a regionally accredited institution." Would there be any benefit to getting a master's first?

 

[PsyDr]

You didn't "do research" on how far the commute was?!

 

[DayKD]

You didn't "do research" on how far the commute was?!

I did look up how far the commute was. When i originally posted, I though it was a longer commute. I wasn't completely sure where the school was located, but now I know. I don't see why it matters if I did or did not know how long my commute would be. When I posted last night, I hadn't really looked anything up, but had a general idea of where the nearest schools are. Again, I don't see why it should matter that I didn't know everything, including the commute time, when I posted.

 

[Sanman]

A couple of though on the original question and a few on the one.

Regarding online degrees.

1. If you were in a life threatening situation and needed surgery, would you want the last words from the surgeon before went under to be "Don't I went to an online program" or not? If the answer is no, consider the impact of that on the future suicidal patient you see that needs help.

2. Why does anyone think is a good idea to train someone for a career that largely involves interpersonal interaction with minimal interpersonal interactions? Seems like an intuitively terrible idea as you either dislike the training or the career.

As for you PsyD question, no you don't need a masters degree. That said, finances a silly reason not to move as you will still need to move to internship and post-doc to finish school and be appropriately licensed. Also, you don't pay for PhD programs and some PsyD programs. They waive tuition and you work for a stipend.

My advice to you if you really can't move and are that poor is get a master's and go be a counselor or a MSW. Easier to find a program, less barriers to entry, and easier to start making an income. Letting something like a distance of 40 miles and finances (in the age of student loans) stop you means you likely will never finish and become licensed. This is coming from someone who went straight from college to doctorate without any money from my parents (thank you funded program and Uncle Sam for the cost of living loans).

 

[MAClinician]

@DayKD it appears you are approaching graduate school like you would undergraduate schools (I.e. how far away can I move and how will I pay for it?). Graduate school is a different kind and level of training and must be approached differently. What is your career goal(s)? Why a PsyD? It may be helpful to talk to your advisor about your goals and ways to reach those goals. Also, on the first page of this forum is a sticky thread for doctoral applicants. Check out the links as there are topics that will explain more about the process and expectations of grad school.

 

[erg923]

I'm just going to address all of the posters here. Some of you gave good advice in a polite manner. Thank you for that. Others just came off as rude and unprofessional. Heres an update on what I have decided. I have found a program (on campus) that I am very interested in. The school I thought was 40 minutes away isn't as far as I thought (and actually a shorter commute time). The distance is no longer an issue since I did a bit of research on the location. However, calling me "lazy" as mentioned before is just rude. No one on here knows my reasons for asking about online degrees. I do not want to go into a a lot of detail, but the biggest factor is the cost. I can't afford to relocate AND spend thousands of dollars on degrees. Yes, I know it is expensive, but it would be easier (and cheaper) if I can stay where I currently live and commute. I have found one school nearby (APA accredited) that I will likely apply to. Now, if anyone would be willing to answer this, can you go into a Psy.D without a master's degree? The program I am looking at sounded like this is the case, however, I haven't received any information from the school yet. The admissions page says, "The applicant must possess a bachelor's or master's degree or their equivalent from a regionally accredited institution." Would there be any benefit to getting a master's first?

Are you ok with moving for your internship? You can look up the statistics on this, but I think its like 90% of individuals. How bout for your post doc? How bout for your job? If no to all, then your career is limited already, and may be dead in the water depending on your specific location and the market demands there.

Look, the degree (ph.d or psyd) and this career require certain things. Geographic flexibility during training is one. While you might not be a "lazy" person, your approach to your potential graduate career certainly comes across as lazy thus far.

I 'm not sure if maybe this is a millennial thing with you, but when I grew up, calling someone lazy may or may not have been accurate, but it wasn't considered rude. I heard the term countless time from football coaches, teachers, and my father on occasion. I didn't always agree with their assessment, but it didn't hurt my feelings or anything. Some people do indeed suffer from the sin of "sloth."

 

[CheetahGirl]

I'll chime in that erg923's assessment of 90% of doctoral students have moved at various points for training (doctoral program, internship, postdoc) is approximately accurate.

However, I was able to stay in NYC for all...but the Major Caveat was that ALL of it was super-competitive for me...every last bit of it. I have become well-versed in interviewing at this point, as we all are...at the postdoc level. But unless you can network AND live in a major metropolitan area, mobility is quite necessary and more often a given for many applicants.‎ And (to beat a dead horse), my commute was never less than 40-minutes. In fact, I mark the day that I hit Manhattan, Brooklyn, and the Bronx all before 8am one-day b/c running ONE dissertation participant was necessary before my 8am internship began. Just a minor sacrifice.

On SDN, I view some of the 'rudeness' as 'tough love,' otherwise why would we spend our time offering input? We all want the best of best, and you have to prove yourself to YOU first...not us.

Good luck in your decisions.‎

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I consider 95% of the more blunt posts as "tough love" because most applicants don't hear about the realities of the process and field prior to their experiencing it. A big reason I stuck around was to help applicants and trainees navigate the field, as I never had that luxury when I was in that position (pre-SDN?! forum). I can't assume other people's motivations, but the forum is definitely better off because of the willingness for people to provide some of that tough love.

 

[WisNeuro]

I consider 95% of the more blunt posts as "tough love" because most applicants don't hear about the realities of the process and field prior to their experiencing it. A big reason I stuck around was to help applicants and trainees navigate the field, as I never had that luxury when I was in that position (pre-SDN?! forum). I can't assume other people's motivations, but the forum is definitely better off because of the willingness for people to provide some of that tough love.

I do it because I'm a terrible person, and the tears of others is one of the sweetest tastes imaginable.