Opening a can of worms/beating a dead horse

[78222]

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I know this has subject has been beat to death but it still makes me really angry. I just received this email with the subject line "AMA Scholarships" and thought "oh, I sure could use a scholarship". When I opened I saw it was basically just another minority scholarship which I probably would have just exited had the wording I bolded not been so maddening

AMA Minority Scholarship:

The cost of medical education continues to increase, while the number of federally funded assistance programs continues to decrease. This unfortunate reality is leaving many minority medical students saddled with an overwhelming financial burden The cost of medical education is leaving MOST of us, regardless of race, with an overwhelming financial burden. Just because you are a minority doesn't mean you are necessarily worse off than anyone else in medical school. Why are a certain subgroup of people more deserving of coming out of medschool with less debt than the rest of us? They have the same access to loans as me and will have the same earning potential as me when we are finished. . To help provide monetary assistance to these aspiring physicians, while promoting diversity in the medical environment, the American Medical Association (AMA) Foundation has created the Minority Scholars Award. These $10,000 awards are presented annually to 10 medical students from groups historically underrepresented in the medical profession. The awards are offered in collaboration with the AMA Minority Affairs Consortium, with support from the Pfizer Medical Humanities Initiative.

The Minority Scholars Award recognizes personal commitment to improving minority health status, scholastic achievement and financial need among minority students. The College of Medicine Scholarship Committee may submit up to two (2) nominations to the AMA Foundation for consideration. (Previous recipients of this award are not eligible.)


Eligibility


Eligible nominees must be:

· medical students demonstrating financial need from one of the underrepresented minority groups listed below. Receipt of this scholarship will count towards the recipients' second- or third-year medical school costs.

o African-American/Black

o American Indian

o Native Hawaiian

o Alaska Native

o Hispanic/Latino

· permanent resident or citizen of the United States in their first or second year at an accredited US medical school.

Application Deadline:


Applications must be received by the College of Medicine Scholarship Selection Committee no later than March 15, 2009.

 

[silas2642]

I know this has subject has been beat to death but it still makes me really angry. I just received this email with the subject line "AMA Scholarships" and thought "oh, I sure could use a scholarship". When I opened I saw it was basically just another minority scholarship which I probably would have just exited had the wording I bolded not been so maddening

This sounds totally awful, but they tend to get the majority of the scholarship money anyway. Could you imagine what would happen if someone set up a scholarship fun just for white people? And you rarely see scholarships just for asians.

 

[45408]

For all I care, any group can offer any scholarship to anyone they want. If I want to offer scholarships to hard core video gamers, I should be allowed to.

However, this statement:

This unfortunate reality is leaving many minority medical students saddled with an overwhelming financial burden

Was pretty dumb. The reality is that there are more non-minority medical students with six-figure student loans than there are minority medical students with six-figure loans, simply because there are more non-minorities. So whoever wrote that wasn't thinking clearly.

 

[atomi]

So whoever wrote that wasn't thinking clearly.

They were thinking clearly, just not rationally. The same argument applies to need-based financial aid. Does somebody from a poor background 'need' to have less debt than someone from a middle class background?

 

[78222]

For all I care, any group can offer any scholarship to anyone they want. If I want to offer scholarships to hard core video gamers, I should be allowed to.

However, this statement:


Was pretty dumb. The reality is that there are more non-minority medical students with six-figure student loans than there are minority medical students with six-figure loans, simply because there are more non-minorities. So whoever wrote that wasn't thinking clearly.

I dunno, I have a problem with basing anything solely on race or using race as an excluding factor. Further, since this scholarship is awarded by the AMA, which should represent all of us, it seems wrong for them to show racial preference towards a particular group.

If the (faulty) logic behind this kind of scholarship is that minorities are more likely to come from impoverished backgrounds, then the scholarship should be set up to help anyone from a low income background - not just people with a certain hue of skin. You can't even use the old affirmative action arguments here because since this is a medical scholarship, these people have already been accepted and will become doctors if they finish their training. All this does is lower their debtload relative to their classmates simply because they fit the right racial criteria.

 

[FrickenhugeMD]

They were thinking clearly, just not rationally. The same argument applies to need-based financial aid. Does somebody from a poor background 'need' to have less debt than someone from a middle class background?

My guess is somebody at some point decided that they deserve it more based on perceptions of how difficult it was for them growing up. Not sure why med schools expect a parental contribution from middle classer's, mine could barley put me through 2 years of UG!

Not like I choose to grow up middle class and white, but I guess it means that I have to pay more for it

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

It IS a very weird statement and poorly phrased.

First, is the issue that MOST of us will have massive debt, regardless of our racial affiliation.

However, the other issue is the inherent racism in the statement.

"We want to help minorities with debt. You know, because all minorities are poor, right? Oh wait, I guess technically Asians and Indians are minorities, but we're talking about the POOR minorities...excuse me, under represented"

 

[Crazyday]

It IS a very weird statement and poorly phrased.

First, is the issue that MOST of us will have massive debt, regardless of our racial affiliation.

However, the other issue is the inherent racism in the statement.

"We want to help minorities with debt. You know, because all minorities are poor, right? Oh wait, I guess technically Asians and Indians are minorities, but we're talking about the POOR minorities...excuse me, under represented"

It's like my history teacher said, we're not over discrimination which is made painfully obvious by how big of a deal Obama becoming president was. If we were truly non-discriminatory and past that era, it wouldn't have been such a huge deal to have a black man as a president.

 

[PepperMD]

Whether or not you believe in affirmative action, at least it makes some LOGICAL sense. Minority students may not have had the same access to good schools, SAT prep, whatever, so you give them a leg up in college admissions because they started at a disadvantage. With this, the minorities are IN MED SCHOOL! Where is the disadvantage? Everybody has to pay the same tuition (w/ obvious state residency difference), so everybody will have the same debt burden. If need-based, maybe, but the way this is set up it appears that even the minorities with rich parents have an opportunity to lessen their debt. But I agree, it's their money and they can decide who to give it to regardless of whether it's discriminatory.

 

[BigRedBeta]

To play devil's advocate here...

Look again and realize that it's for underrepresented minorities. I certainly agree that EVERYONE in medical school is takign out a lot of debt, and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that there are some individuals (from every racial group) out there who started out as pre-meds, looked at the expected debt and said "no thanks". Given the AMA and the AAMC's concerns about low numbers of URM's in medicine (and if IIRC that minority applications went DOWN this year as the economy tanked), the hope is obviously that if they can alleviate some of this financial burden, that they can make headway on the URM issue.

I'm not saying it's the right way to go about it, or that it's any less frustrating, but the thinking behind the program is rational and is about more than just giving away money.

 

[silas2642]

To play devil's advocate here...

Look again and realize that it's for underrepresented minorities. I certainly agree that EVERYONE in medical school is takign out a lot of debt, and I'm willing to bet dollars to donuts that there are some individuals (from every racial group) out there who started out as pre-meds, looked at the expected debt and said "no thanks". Given the AMA and the AAMC's concerns about low numbers of URM's in medicine (and if IIRC that minority applications went DOWN this year as the economy tanked), the hope is obviously that if they can alleviate some of this financial burden, that they can make headway on the URM issue.

I'm not saying it's the right way to go about it, or that it's any less frustrating, but the thinking behind the program is rational and is about more than just giving away money.

Yes, and while I kind of sort of maybe see what they're trying to do, what I think they are inadvertantly doing is pissing everyone else off at the same time. Seriously, how many URM's are like Dr. Ben Carson who literally from the ghettos? Most of the URM's at my school seem to be like everyone else at my school-- upper middle class parents who went to really good undergraduate schools.

All scholarships that are limited just to URM's do are bridge the gap that much more, pissing everyone else off in the process. If you want to level the playing field, take socioeconomic status into account-- if your parents really were flipping burgers for a living and you learned how to read while you were raising your 3 younger siblings, than damn! Yeah, you deserve that scholarship and then some. But there is no way that I shouldn't be able to compete with you for scholarship money if you had all the same opportunities that I had (if not more) based solely on the color of your skin and some school's desire to look like they have a "diverse student body."

 

[d1ony5u5]

In the name of full disclosure, let me begin by saying that I am part of a URM.

I do agree that the wording in the original post was badly chosen. However, I also see why there is a need to limit this type of opportunity to a single group.

Before a lot of you get all fired up, let me explain:
I see the racial factor as being merely a correlation of a very real problem. It so happens to be that certain minorities tend to be more impoverished than others. It also happens that those same minorities tend to be under-represented in medicine. There definitely are exceptions to this pattern, but it exists regardless.

What the AMA and other entities are trying to accomplish is to increase the enrollment of this group of people in the medical field. It's not a perfect correlation, but financial need and under-representation are linked to specific racial groups. With that in mind, it would be foolish for the granting entities to open the pool of applications to anyone. They would never achieve their objective. Just to make myself more clear: the intention is to encourage minorities to pursue a medical career, so one way to go about it is to offer some financial aid to those minorities exclusively.

Now, I understand that a majority of medical students need the money just as badly, without regard to race. The problem is that that majority does not need more encouragement. I would venture that this is why you don't see many scholarship opportunities for asians or indians or even caucasians.

To summarize, I think you are obviously upset by this particular system, but you misunderstand the intention behind it. In general, the scholarship money is more an encouragement to enter the field than debt assistance. If it were merely debt assistance, you would undoubtedly be right; almost every med student would deserve a chance at it. But it is not, it is an effort to increase the number of minorities in medicine, and as such I think it makes sense.

I will concede, though, that the wording and the way in which this particular scholarship is being implemented is not without flaws, but in general the idea of helping out minorities is a noble and necessary goal.

Finally, if you think, as you suggested in an earlier post, that the playing field is leveled, and that any sort of support for minorities is groundless in the present, you certainly delude yourself. If that is the case, I don't think anything I or anybody says will change your skewed perspective. It's clearly evident when you come in contact with these groups.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

I agree with the above post, mostly. The fact of the matter is, my family has money. We're not rich, but we're doing okay. I haven't had to use them for this, but they've made it clear they'd be happy to be my safety net if my car breaks down or I need to take a cross country flight at the last minute.

I have no problems extending aid to URM's who come from less lucky backgrounds as I do, because I believe there are financial factors that affect enrollment rates in medicine.

That said, I am amazed at the gall the AMA to make such an awkwardly phrased (and potentially offensive) statement like this.

 

[Dr Roboto]

What the AMA and other entities are trying to accomplish is to increase the enrollment of this group of people in the medical field.

This scholarship is for current medical students. Unless pre-meds are receiving this information, the AMA's motives may not be as noble as we think they are.

Eligible nominees must be:

· medical students demonstrating financial need from one of the underrepresented minority groups listed below. Receipt of this scholarship will count towards the recipients' second- or third-year medical school costs.

I would argue that FAP is doing a better job of encouraging URM enrollment than this AMA scholarship. At least with FAP more URM can afford the ridiculous application process.

 

[SoCuteMD]

In the name of full disclosure, let me begin by saying that I am part of a URM.

I do agree that the wording in the original post was badly chosen. However, I also see why there is a need to limit this type of opportunity to a single group.

Before a lot of you get all fired up, let me explain:
I see the racial factor as being merely a correlation of a very real problem. It so happens to be that certain minorities tend to be more impoverished than others. It also happens that those same minorities tend to be under-represented in medicine. There definitely are exceptions to this pattern, but it exists regardless.

What the AMA and other entities are trying to accomplish is to increase the enrollment of this group of people in the medical field. It's not a perfect correlation, but financial need and under-representation are linked to specific racial groups. With that in mind, it would be foolish for the granting entities to open the pool of applications to anyone. They would never achieve their objective. Just to make myself more clear: the intention is to encourage minorities to pursue a medical career, so one way to go about it is to offer some financial aid to those minorities exclusively.

Now, I understand that a majority of medical students need the money just as badly, without regard to race. The problem is that that majority does not need more encouragement. I would venture that this is why you don't see many scholarship opportunities for asians or indians or even caucasians.

You make a good point, but if the true purpose of this scholarship were to increase minority enrollment in medical school and it's being awarded to a rising 2nd or 3rd year medical student, it's probably about 4 years too late to "encourage" enrollment. Where it REALLY should be targeted is towards minorities enrolled in premedical classes if the true intention is to increase enrollment. Once they are enrolled in medical school, the golden handcuffs (debt burden) is just about the same for everyone and is probably worse for those of us who are caucasian since URMs tend to garner lots of scholarship money as schools vie for the best URM candidates.

 

[diosa428]

Yeah, sorry I don't buy it. My school offers full rides to URMs, and you know what? At least half the URMs in my class aren't even American. They are from Africa, Jamaica, Barbados, etc. But yet they have full tuition + stipend scholarships. Because they're black. That totally makes sense... ?

Furthermore, the URMs that are American have a lot more money than me, and other white people I know. And this AA crap has taken over. Do you know how hard it is to get research experience where I live if you're an undergrad and you need to get paid over the summer? All of the summer research internships are for URMs only. Sure, you can volunteer, and maybe your car will just magically drive itself without gas or insurance, and hopefully you won't have to buy new clothes for the school year. I know white kids who come from crappy backgrounds and they want to go back and serve their communities too - why isn't anyone trying to help them out? They can't do it with $200,000 in debt either.

 

[WellWornLad]

Yeah, sorry I don't buy it. My school offers full rides to URMs, and you know what? At least half the URMs in my class aren't even American. They are from Africa, Jamaica, Barbados, etc. But yet they have full tuition + stipend scholarships. Because they're black. That totally makes sense... ?

You do know that non-Americans can't get Federal student loans, right?

Furthermore, the URMs that are American have a lot more money than me, and other white people I know.

Funny, people at my school get all weird when I want to compare W2s. Then again, I don't go to school in Bizzaro World.

 

[scarletgirl777]

You do know that non-Americans can't get Federal student loans, right?



Funny, people at my school get all weird when I want to compare W2s. Then again, I don't go to school in Bizzaro World.

 

[Re3iRtH]

In the name of full disclosure, let me begin by saying that I am part of a URM.

I do agree that the wording in the original post was badly chosen. However, I also see why there is a need to limit this type of opportunity to a single group.

Before a lot of you get all fired up, let me explain:
I see the racial factor as being merely a correlation of a very real problem. It so happens to be that certain minorities tend to be more impoverished than others. It also happens that those same minorities tend to be under-represented in medicine. There definitely are exceptions to this pattern, but it exists regardless.

What the AMA and other entities are trying to accomplish is to increase the enrollment of this group of people in the medical field. It's not a perfect correlation, but financial need and under-representation are linked to specific racial groups. With that in mind, it would be foolish for the granting entities to open the pool of applications to anyone. They would never achieve their objective. Just to make myself more clear: the intention is to encourage minorities to pursue a medical career, so one way to go about it is to offer some financial aid to those minorities exclusively.

Now, I understand that a majority of medical students need the money just as badly, without regard to race. The problem is that that majority does not need more encouragement. I would venture that this is why you don't see many scholarship opportunities for asians or indians or even caucasians.

To summarize, I think you are obviously upset by this particular system, but you misunderstand the intention behind it. In general, the scholarship money is more an encouragement to enter the field than debt assistance. If it were merely debt assistance, you would undoubtedly be right; almost every med student would deserve a chance at it. But it is not, it is an effort to increase the number of minorities in medicine, and as such I think it makes sense.

I will concede, though, that the wording and the way in which this particular scholarship is being implemented is not without flaws, but in general the idea of helping out minorities is a noble and necessary goal.

Finally, if you think, as you suggested in an earlier post, that the playing field is leveled, and that any sort of support for minorities is groundless in the present, you certainly delude yourself. If that is the case, I don't think anything I or anybody says will change your skewed perspective. It's clearly evident when you come in contact with these groups.

Clearly, 10 smart white people were not able to come to this conclusion,
or rationalize this the way that you have, but of course the first
minority to post has a perfect explanation for these scholarships??
Last time I checked they havent found any genetic differences to
justify labeling one group "white" and another "black", no different
than 2 people of different nationalities.
I guess you have to be a minority to understand economics, and
the psychology of people offering scholarships.

 

[45408]

You do know that non-Americans can't get Federal student loans, right?

It's pretty dang hard for anyone to get into a US medical school without being a citizen. And you're wrong, non-Americans can get federal loans. My buddy was born in Russia and came to the US and got Stafford loans when he was a resident alien (green card).

Funny, people at my school get all weird when I want to compare W2s. Then again, I don't go to school in Bizzaro World.

My parents could be jillionaires, and it wouldn't show up on my W2. I do have classmates whose parents buy them condos, cars, and pay for tuition.

 

[scarletgirl777]

It's pretty dang hard for anyone to get into a US medical school without being a citizen. And you're wrong, non-Americans can get federal loans. My buddy was born in Russia and came to the US and got Stafford loans when he was a resident alien (green card).


My parents could be jillionaires, and it wouldn't show up on my W2. I do have classmates whose parents buy them condos, cars, and pay for tuition.

Green card holders get treated just like citizens in the admissions process and for financial aid, but anyone who came here on a student visa or other kind of visa is not going to be eligible for those loans.

 

[45408]

Green card holders get treated just like citizens in the admissions process and for financial aid, but anyone who came here on a student visa or other kind of visa is not going to be eligible for those loans.

I know. This has nothing to do with what Diosa said.

 

[Pghboy18]

Man, what do you do nowadays if you're poor and white? It's kind of like getting the middle finger with both hands.

 

[WellWornLad]

It's pretty dang hard for anyone to get into a US medical school without being a citizen.

Don't tell it to me, tell it to diosa, whose school is apparently full of them.

And you're wrong, non-Americans can get federal loans. My buddy was born in Russia and came to the US and got Stafford loans when he was a resident alien (green card).

I don't think this is the context that diosa put the issue in. Someone with a green card has made great steps towards either becoming a citizen or is invested in American culture. Perhaps diosa meant to include these people when he said "non-American," in which case I gave him too much credit.

My parents could be jillionaires, and it wouldn't show up on my W2. I do have classmates whose parents buy them condos, cars, and pay for tuition.

Funny, I thought about editing the "W2" to "bank account statement," but then I thought no one here was lame enough to contest the point. I stand corrected.

I know rich classmates too, but I find it patently ridiculous that there is a medical school out there somewhere were all the URMs are richer than all the white people, just as I would find it ridiculous if every white person was richer than every URM. My statement was meant to emphasize the specious reasoning behind such an assumption, not prove that rich people don't go to medical school.

I know. This has nothing to do with what Diosa said.

I believe he was referring to your comment that it's hard to get in if you're not a "citizen," which is not true in the case of green card holders. Isn't it annoying when people argue on semantics?

 

[WellWornLad]

Give me a break! This is what the majority of scholarships were until about 25-30 years ago. Minorities are still disproportionately underrepresented in medicine, tend not to go to prestigious high schools and undergraduate colleges and get less academic scholarship money or exposure to requisite resources and research experience. This is a cultural reality and a result of hundreds of years of intentional marginalization of minorities. Believe me, most URMs would love it if the mantle of a discriminatory history was not theirs to carry. In a couple of generations, you'll see more of these funds specifically directed at socioeconomically disadvantaged folks -which probably will still statistically be overrepresented minorities. When you solve all of the systematic problems that resulted from the utter exclusion of minorities, then complain about chump change for a select group of students. For the record, this minority isn't receiving any scholarships, but I won't hate on my brother from the hood or whose family works in the agricultural fields who might get some of this money!

I think the question is whether socio-economic disparity is a better gauge of disadvantage than race. People on the lower rung of the economic ladder "tend not to go to prestigious high schools and undergraduate colleges and get less academic scholarship money or exposure to requisite resources and research experience." So why not associate scholarships with true financial need, which in theory would go more towards URM if they are more financially disadvantaged, while leaving open the chance for non-URMs with demonstrated need and hardship to shoot for those funds.

The second question is whether scholarships are an appropriate and/or effective way to increase matriculation for a particular group of people. Everything you said could and does have an analogue in admissions policy, which is arguably a better avenue to address differences in opportunities related to medical school admission. Once you're in med school (assuming no parental contribution) everyone has roughly the same earning capacity and the same access to Federal loans, so why exclude one "needy" group over another?

 

[kakalak]

Give me a break! This is what the majority of scholarships were until about 25-30 years ago.

Exactly, but we don't live 25-30 years ago. Like others have said, unless they are offering these scholarships to undergrads that are potentially going to attend med school, but are scared of the debt, they aren't doing anything to encourage minorities in medicine.

It says it offers them to second and third years. Did they think these people were going to dropout all of the sudden if they didn't receive scholarships? How do these scholarships encourage minorities in medicine when only people already in med school that will end up in medicine with a scholarhip or not are the ones hearing about them?

 

[Mr hawkings]

Exactly, but we don't live 25-30 years ago. Like others have said, unless they are offering these scholarships to undergrads that are potentially going to attend med school, but are scared of the debt, they aren't doing anything to encourage minorities in medicine.

It says it offers them to second and third years. Did they think these people were going to dropout all of the sudden if they didn't receive scholarships? How do these scholarships encourage minorities in medicine when only people already in med school that will end up in medicine with a scholarhip or not are the ones hearing about them?

You know you would still complain. Dont pretend that your only issue with this is that its being offered to medical students. i know thats what everyone would like to say, but we all know if this same scholarship was for minority undergrads, there would be just the same amount of disdain over it. So just say you dont agree with certain things being offered to URMs that arent available to everyone else and stop this nonsense about med students vs undergrads.
I could care less either way.

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

You know you would still complain. Dont pretend that your only issue with this is that its being offered to medical students. i know thats what everyone would like to say, but we all know if this same scholarship was for minority undergrads, there would be just the same amount of disdain over it. So just say you dont agree with certain things being offered to URMs that arent available to everyone else and stop this nonsense about med students vs undergrads.
I could care less either way.

I think in this specific circumstance, the issue is with the wording and logic of offering scholarships to minority medical students vs. nonminority students based on a presumption of disproportionate debt. There definitely is debate about minority scholarships in general, but I think in this case the difference between medical student and undergraduate is a big deal.

 

[AldousHux]

I agree wholeheartedly with the previous posts saying that attracting URM's to medicine in the first place is important, and as much as everyone says this is for med students, any college advisor knows about these scholarships and if they are worth their salary would be able to let a URM know about this opportunity in med school if they were so worried about debt. So I don't really think that's a valid argument.

Having said that, I agree that socioeconomic status is just as important, otherwise the URM probably doesn't need any extra push to become a doctor. If you were in a middle class neighborhood going to middle class schools, a decent college and you actually made it into med school to begin with, I think it puts you on even footing with anyone else, regardless of race.

However, the people you are trying to attract are those who needed affirmative action for college because they came from a disadvantaged background, and are URM so you can lessen the gap. Fine.

Easy solution: make the scholarship for URMs who meet a certain financial background. Wouldn't that make everyone happy?

And just for the sake of curiosity , I'm white. Blond hair blue eyes actually, all american cheerleader, so no, you don't have to be a minority to understand logic, good lord. Some people.

 

[number]

Last time I checked they havent found any genetic differences to
justify labeling one group "white" and another "black", no different
than 2 people of different nationalities.
I guess you have to be a minority to understand economics, and
the psychology of people offering scholarships.

Genetic differences obviously exist and this has been apparent since before the discovery of DNA. Starting with the most superficial, skin pigmentation is coded by DNA. Sure, maybe there are ten "dark genes" influencing skin color and each black person has only a random assortment of these... Sure, there is a continuum, and multiple valid ways of grouping the races exist.

The definition of hypertension is a human construct. Does this mean a biological basis does not exist? There is more genetic variation within the group of non-hypertensive than between a single hypertensive individual and a single non-hypertensive individual. Perhaps we should stop prescribing BP medicine?

Perhaps the minorities you fail to understand are using common sense rather than mainstream pseudo-science.

It really is quite strange. 8:00 AM, Dean of Diversity lectures about cultural sensitivity and claims that race does not exist. 9:00 AM, Biochem lecturer minds us that racial discrimination is required for the interpretation of lab results.

Maybe I am wrong, but I thought most of everyone knew that the claims from the 8:00 AM lecture were more political than scientific even though the scientific community has let the articles pass because criticizing such articles is bad for one's career while writing them is gold.

Anyway, why do you bring up genetics? In regards to scholarships, it does not matter whether the group is defined by genetics or by other criteria. Certainly "hispanic" is an awkwardly defined group, but one of the more convincing ones in regard to medical school affirmative action. I admit it; I will never learn Spanish. Go ahead and give the hispanic kid a scholarship, perhaps with an obligation to go into primary care, and save the hispanic patients and anglo doctors from the speaker phone translations.

While unnecessarily indirect, less debt for the hispanic med student translates into less concern about money, decreasing the probabilty of him doing something like going into derm and giving botox to rich white women all day.

 

[78222]

While unnecessarily indirect, less debt for the hispanic med student translates into less concern about money, decreasing the probabilty of him doing something like going into derm and giving botox to rich white women all day.

You again assume that A) the majority of black/hispanic medical students are from the ghetto
B) they intend to go back their after finishing medical school.

I can think of possibly 1 AA student in my class who is likely from a disadvantaged background. The rest are either middle class or "Africa" African. 90% of them have about as much business as I do in the ghetto (and possibly less considering I actually did grow up rather poor).

 

[akpete]

Man, what do you do nowadays if you're poor and white? It's kind of like getting the middle finger with both hands.

 

[kakalak]

You know you would still complain. Dont pretend that your only issue with this is that its being offered to medical students. i know thats what everyone would like to say, but we all know if this same scholarship was for minority undergrads, there would be just the same amount of disdain over it. So just say you dont agree with certain things being offered to URMs that arent available to everyone else and stop this nonsense about med students vs undergrads.
I could care less either way.

People that assume things are as$holes. This is just as offensive as me assuming that because you're a minority and you're in my med school class you had a 3.2 and a 23 mcat.

 

[d1ony5u5]

Clearly, 10 smart white people were not able to come to this conclusion,
or rationalize this the way that you have, but of course the first
minority to post has a perfect explanation for these scholarships??
Last time I checked they havent found any genetic differences to
justify labeling one group "white" and another "black", no different
than 2 people of different nationalities.
I guess you have to be a minority to understand economics, and
the psychology of people offering scholarships.

*sigh* I don't like to pick fights, especially with someone so obviously inarticulate, but...

Re3iRtH, did you forget to make a sensible argument or were you just bitter?

Anyway, I partly agree with other posts in that offering this type of scholarships is not a perfect way to attract URMs into the field. It's evident that those who are already in medical school need very little encouragement, but other alternatives have big drawbacks as well.
For example, hardly could the AMA justify offering this type of scholarship to undergrads simply because there is too much uncertainty. No one could guarantee that those receiving undergrad scholarships from the AMA would indeed become doctors, and so the effort would not be seen as effective. Offering the scholarships to student's already committed to the field is a bit weird, but viewed from the side of the granting agency it also has the virtue of having least risk involved.

It certainly isn't perfect, but I think it's a good thing they are trying.

Also, I do think that they should be more specific about the financial need requirement for this type of scholarships. I hope it's something they don't mention rather than something they completely left out. There is absolutely no reason why a person with means from the target group should get this kind of help; it doesn't make sense.

 

[WellWornLad]

Here is where you are wrong. Folks who oppose minority scholarships fail to realize that deeper, institutional problems make success for minorities more improbable even if all other factors are equal. Attrition rates for minorities in medicine are also much higher -and for economic reasons, not necessarily academic ones.

You're broadening the argument out of context. No one disagrees that disparities still exist. The question is whether scholarships specifically for URM medical students in their 2nd or 3rd year of study do anything to ameliorate those disparities, and if so, how.

I'm especially unclear on how attrition rates for minorities in medicine are due to economic reasons. Personally, I borrow every cent I have to spend, so it's hard to see how anyone with the same opportunity to borrow would have it harder than I because of their race. I'm not saying I can't be wrong, I just don't see it.

To appreciate what URM scholarship programs and some forms of AA are designed to do, you have to appreciate the broader picture and how "close" to the past we still are.

It's fine to throw around statements like that, but you have to back it up with specifics.

 

[78222]

Here is where you are wrong. Folks who oppose minority scholarships fail to realize that deeper, institutional problems make success for minorities more improbable even if all other factors are equal. Attrition rates for minorities in medicine are also much higher -and for economic reasons, not necessarily academic ones.

And are attrition rates for minorities any higher than people from low economic backgrounds who aren't black? A lot of white and Asian kids also have difficulties with school, not because they can't handle the academics but because they have other pressing economic concerns. Why don't they matter to people like you? Because they have the wrong skin color?

Further, I don't see how this has any bearing once you are IN medical school. We all have access to the same federal loans once we're in.

Do you folks realize that millions of people still alive in this country voted for pro-segregation leaders and cringe at the idea of having a minority as the leader of the free world? Do you realize that millions of minority youth in this country are raised in families that would prefer for them to pursue technical fields and adamantly discourage these kids from thinking of head-in-the-clouds careers like medicine -because historically such careers were unattainable? It's great that there is a new generation of folks who resist these old and destructive ideas -but the cultural effects are still there; the psychological damage is still there and the legacy of disadvantage/prejudice is long and ugly. That's why minority crime rates, teen pregnancy rates etc. are disproportionately higher. That's why heart disease and diabetes impact minorities like the plague.

And do you realize that enough people in this country don't give a flip about race enough to elect a black president? Are there no lasting cultural effects of growing up poor and white? Are there not white parents who discourage their kids from going for a career like medicine because they think they should stay home and work the tobacco fields?

You can't solve such deeply rooted social problems by ignoring them or even by simply passing laws to make everyone equal. Blacks had the right to vote in 1860s, but they couldn't access the voting booth for almost 100 years until additional corrective measures and social activism took place. Women became "equal" in the 20's but still suffer from unspoken prejudice that requires special attention to institutional disparities (i.e. Women in Medicine, the Ledbetter Act etc.). Short term gains for individuals are meant to make long-term change in society in general -just like a psychologically battered individual might require additional support in order that he/she might become reassimilated into and productive in society later on.

And at what point will you say we are equal and that blacks no longer need special help? My guess is never. How long are blacks going to be "psychologically battered"? Forever?

To appreciate what URM scholarship programs and some forms of AA are designed to do, you have to appreciate the broader picture and how "close" to the past we still are. And if it's any consolation, even with all of these horribly oppressive URM scholarship programs, white males are still overrepresented in medicine -so consider it a win-win situation.

Overrepresented? Why should white people be discriminated against for the relative success of the race when compared to blacks?

In America if you grow up black and poor you are "struggling against adversity" and a victim of years of institutional racism. If you grow up in a poor Appalachian town you are just white trash.

 

[78222]

Another thing, because my school offers us the chance to do rotations at any of the university hospitals in the state, I have split my time evenly between an area with a pt population that is predominately black and poor and one that is predominately white and poor. Although culturally speaking, these groups are as different as night and day, when it comes to opportunities and chances to succeed, they are about equal. The kid from the trailer park is just as likely to get pregnant, abuse drugs, and quit school as the kid from the projects. If we are looking to fix inequality in this country, we need to focus on the socio-economics and get over our fixation on race.

 

[novastorm]

So just to add an interesting twist to the disucssion, Howard university stands to get about 240 million dollars in this upcoming Omnibus SpendingFest Bill, because its historically black school, regardless of it being a private school. How do you all feel about that? Who else thinks their school could use some of that money as well?

 

[NJDIF]

holy crap.

im so glad i found this thread. i though i was the only one who felt this way. i know its not "PC" to complain about these kind of things, but its getting ridiculous. thanks for posting, guys.

 

[number]

You again assume that A) the majority of black/hispanic medical students are from the ghetto
B) they intend to go back their after finishing medical school.

I can think of possibly 1 AA student in my class who is likely from a disadvantaged background. The rest are either middle class or "Africa" African. 90% of them have about as much business as I do in the ghetto (and possibly less considering I actually did grow up rather poor).

I have a few African Africans in my class. I would like for them to be able to return home after finishing their education. I bet it would be difficult to repay 200k debt while practicing medicine in most parts of Africa. I am not sure how loans for these students work. I would think that it would be easy to escape back to Africa, where US banks would not bother to track you down, and forget about your debt in the US. Do US banks offer loans to these students?

Hispanics who cannot speak English live in most areas of the US, not just urban ghettos. And as most of us observe in med school , you do not have to live in the ghetto to encounter patients from the ghetto.

 

[78222]

I have a few African Africans in my class. I would like for them to be able to return home after finishing their education. I bet it would be difficult to repay 200k debt while practicing medicine in most parts of Africa. I am not sure how loans for these students work. I would think that it would be easy to escape back to Africa, where US banks would not bother to track you down, and forget about your debt in the US. Do US banks offer loans to these students?

Hispanics who cannot speak English live in most areas of the US, not just urban ghettos. And as most of us observe in med school , you do not have to live in the ghetto to encounter patients from the ghetto.

The Africans in my class and yours are most certainly Permanent Residents of the USA and likely have little desire to return to Africa. My point wasn't that they would skip out on their debt but rather that by being recent immigrants, they aren't "owed" anything by society for slavery/civil rights era discrimination.

 

[Re3iRtH]

*sigh* I don't like to pick fights, especially with someone so obviously inarticulate, but...

Re3iRtH, did you forget to make a sensible argument or were you just bitter?

Anyway, I partly agree with other posts in that offering this type of scholarships is not a perfect way to attract URMs into the field. It's evident that those who are already in medical school need very little encouragement, but other alternatives have big drawbacks as well.
For example, hardly could the AMA justify offering this type of scholarship to undergrads simply because there is too much uncertainty. No one could guarantee that those receiving undergrad scholarships from the AMA would indeed become doctors, and so the effort would not be seen as effective. Offering the scholarships to student's already committed to the field is a bit weird, but viewed from the side of the granting agency it also has the virtue of having least risk involved.

It certainly isn't perfect, but I think it's a good thing they are trying.

Also, I do think that they should be more specific about the financial need requirement for this type of scholarships. I hope it's something they don't mention rather than something they completely left out. There is absolutely no reason why a person with means from the target group should get this kind of help; it doesn't make sense.

Honestly, no one said you had to be articulate or make an arguement to
contribute to an anonymous internet forum. What I was trying to do is
simply raise people's consciousness and point out the irony behind this
thread, that the first bunch of people that posted were white, and they
all agreed and had a similar arguement. The first black poster had the
complete opposite argument. I want people to ponder why this think that
is, because they actually had an experience or basis of opinion, or was
it because they identified themselves with a particular race.
Just something to ponder, not argue, sorry if you you think people
need to be arguing to be educated.

It did come out a bit sarcastic i realize, I typed it late at night and I'm sure you can forgive this
The vast majority of my friends from college are "minorities". It is a very mislabled title, I went to
THE most diverse college campus in the USA, I was almost always the minority (1 or 2 white people
each class) yet blacks/hispanics were still called minorities and treated preferentionally as such.

 

[coldweatherblue]

ya A.A. can be ridiculous but I don't really care who gets scholarships.. there's a lot of unfair stuff in the world but that's the way it is. I can't complain; I would rather have my heritage than anything else no matter if it might be "easier financially" or not. Make it as hard as you like I will divide and conquer.

 

[Blesbok]

In the name of full disclosure, let me begin by saying that I am part of a URM.

I do agree that the wording in the original post was badly chosen. However, I also see why there is a need to limit this type of opportunity to a single group.

Before a lot of you get all fired up, let me explain:
I see the racial factor as being merely a correlation of a very real problem. It so happens to be that certain minorities tend to be more impoverished than others. It also happens that those same minorities tend to be under-represented in medicine. There definitely are exceptions to this pattern, but it exists regardless.

What the AMA and other entities are trying to accomplish is to increase the enrollment of this group of people in the medical field. It's not a perfect correlation, but financial need and under-representation are linked to specific racial groups. With that in mind, it would be foolish for the granting entities to open the pool of applications to anyone. They would never achieve their objective. Just to make myself more clear: the intention is to encourage minorities to pursue a medical career, so one way to go about it is to offer some financial aid to those minorities exclusively.

Now, I understand that a majority of medical students need the money just as badly, without regard to race. The problem is that that majority does not need more encouragement. I would venture that this is why you don't see many scholarship opportunities for asians or indians or even caucasians.

To summarize, I think you are obviously upset by this particular system, but you misunderstand the intention behind it. In general, the scholarship money is more an encouragement to enter the field than debt assistance. If it were merely debt assistance, you would undoubtedly be right; almost every med student would deserve a chance at it. But it is not, it is an effort to increase the number of minorities in medicine, and as such I think it makes sense.

I will concede, though, that the wording and the way in which this particular scholarship is being implemented is not without flaws, but in general the idea of helping out minorities is a noble and necessary goal.

Finally, if you think, as you suggested in an earlier post, that the playing field is leveled, and that any sort of support for minorities is groundless in the present, you certainly delude yourself. If that is the case, I don't think anything I or anybody says will change your skewed perspective. It's clearly evident when you come in contact with these groups.

So how about instead of calling hispanics and blacks poor they instead give the scholarship to those students with the most financial burden? Contact the financial aid department at the school and get a list of those students with the most need. Wouldn't you think that makes more sense? Or maybe they should give it to those people that actually plan on giving back to poorer communities. Give it to people that are willing to sign a contract to work in an impoverished area. How is generalizing that all blacks and hispanics are poor a good way to give out a scholarship?

 

[WellWornLad]

The difference between you and I is that I reject a view of the world that is limited to my own unique experiences and advantages (or disadvantages).

Quite a few philosophers would argue that our views are inherently limited by our own unique experiences. Not sure what that has to with anything anyone is talking about here, however.

Just being a physician gives you certain advantages that other people won't have; and just being white and male will do the same, whether you'd like to think so or not.

The question is whether that plays out in the medical profession, not society in large. I honestly don't know. However, the first two articles I found on googling the subject suggested that black physicians made the same or slightly (but significantly) more than white physicians. Not a thorough review, but I'm not really in the mood to write a paper on the subject.

You are right in thinking that there are few programs targeted at folks who aren't distinguished academically or impeded by some social disadvantage. However, there ARE plenty of programs for academically exceptional or socioeconomically disadvantaged students that are not limited to URMs –do your homework, and if you qualify, apply for them.

I think that's specious reasoning. By the same argument I could say that segregation isn't bad, as long as there are still some restaurants/schools/bathrooms that are integrated.

If you are average or unfettered by some historic disadvantage, then network or do something to make yourself stand out –don't accuse minorities of keeping you down. I refuse to see this as an "us against them" debate.

Aside from a few outliers, you're the only one who is framing this as race warfare. Everyone else is asking whether the AMA is being fair, not URMs.

These programs will disappear as the statistical gaps close and the old ways thinking die out –hopefully we will have the patience to let that happen and not grow to resent each other in the meantime.

Perhaps that's true, but it doesn't hurt to discuss the matter and decide if there's a better way.

 

[Blesbok]

Here is where you are wrong. Folks who oppose minority scholarships fail to realize that deeper, institutional problems make success for minorities more improbable even if all other factors are equal. Attrition rates for minorities in medicine are also much higher -and for economic reasons, not necessarily academic ones.

Do you folks realize that millions of people still alive in this country voted for pro-segregation leaders and cringe at the idea of having a minority as the leader of the free world? Do you realize that millions of minority youth in this country are raised in families that would prefer for them to pursue technical fields and adamantly discourage these kids from thinking of head-in-the-clouds careers like medicine -because historically such careers were unattainable? It's great that there is a new generation of folks who resist these old and destructive ideas -but the cultural effects are still there; the psychological damage is still there and the legacy of disadvantage/prejudice is long and ugly. That's why minority crime rates, teen pregnancy rates etc. are disproportionately higher. That's why heart disease and diabetes impact minorities like the plague.

You can't solve such deeply rooted social problems by ignoring them or even by simply passing laws to make everyone equal. Blacks had the right to vote in 1860s, but they couldn't access the voting booth for almost 100 years until additional corrective measures and social activism took place. Women became "equal" in the 20's but still suffer from unspoken prejudice that requires special attention to institutional disparities (i.e. Women in Medicine, the Ledbetter Act etc.). Short term gains for individuals are meant to make long-term change in society in general -just like a psychologically battered individual might require additional support in order that he/she might become reassimilated into and productive in society later on.

To appreciate what URM scholarship programs and some forms of AA are designed to do, you have to appreciate the broader picture and how "close" to the past we still are. And if it’s any consolation, even with all of these horribly oppressive URM scholarship programs, white males are still overrepresented in medicine -so consider it a win-win situation.

And you do realize that just as many people registered to vote this year only because one of the candidates was black, right? People that have never watched a debate in their life went and voted just because there was someone with the same color skin as theirs running for president. You don't think this kind of thing promotes segregation?

 

[WellWornLad]

What I was trying to do is
simply raise people's consciousness and point out the irony behind this
thread, that the first bunch of people that posted were white, and they
all agreed and had a similar arguement. The first black poster had the
complete opposite argument. I want people to ponder why this think that
is, because they actually had an experience or basis of opinion, or was
it because they identified themselves with a particular race.

How do you know what race the posters were? Most of them didn't specify, which leads me to believe that you assumed they were white based on their argument. If that's the case, you're making a circular argument - they believe X because they're white, and they're white because they believe X.

 

[WellWornLad]

My point is that corrective measures exist to address real problems (usually not created by the targeted group), and sure, bureaucratic solutions are rarely perfect.

I see that. I'm saying that 1) these real problems are deeper than race, and are more properly associated with socio-economic status, and 2) by the second year of medical school, the playing field is pretty level. One person may have had to work 10x as hard to get there than another, sure. If you want to make it easier for disadvantaged students to get to medical school, spend the money on undergrad scholarships. If you want to encourage doctors to practice in underserved areas, subsidize service in those areas through loan repayment programs. The scholarship in question, however, doesn't have any obvious effect on diversity in medicine or addressing disparities directly.

I do think it's a cop-out to say "nothing's perfect." You can apply that to absolutely any problem in life.

To compare any medical school scholarship disadvantage you might incur because you are not a woman, poor or a minority to the vile history that the previous have had to endure is simply incongruent.

This has nothing to do with me. I could be a purple hermaphrodite for all you know. In any case, I'm not arguing for my piece of the pie. I'm arguing about whether these scholarships are misplaced resources.

If the AMA stops giving out medical school scholarships to 3rd or 4th year URMs that still might not mean more money for you. For all you know, these scholarships may be funded by specific individuals or agencies who are targeting minorities. If they don’t distribute the scholarships, then the money might just disappear –and who does that benefit?

Nothing "disappears" in this universe, especially money. In any case, it's irrelevant to the argument of what is best to do with the money. If someone decides to dance naked around a big flaming pile of scholarship money, it doesn't affect my opinion of what the best use for that money is.

I think your anger (and this is mostly what troubles me, as I agree that there are often better/more efficient ways to address social problems than those in authority might choose) is a bit misplaced –there are far bigger problems in medicine and society than minority scholarships.

I don't know why you think I'm angry. I don't have my caps lock on or anything. I'm having a rational argument. People can disagree and not be angry. I am a logic Nazi, I'll admit, but a good civilized argument is one of the finest examples of communication there is. It's a pity that this polarized country can no longer distinguish an argument from a fight.

And again, just because there are bigger problems doesn't mean that we can't talk about smaller problems. This is a thread dedicated to the topic of URM medical scholarships. What would you rather do, talk about the weather?

 

[Mr hawkings]

And you do realize that just as many people registered to vote this year only because one of the candidates was black, right? People that have never watched a debate in their life went and voted just because there was someone with the same color skin as theirs running for president. You don't think this kind of thing promotes segregation?

Ok thats a little bit unfair. Obama is not the first black candidate in history. If it was just about race, blacks would have voted for other candidates that have run in the past (sharpton, chism etc).
He was the "right" black guy in addition to an unpopular incumbent admin. Which implies that they overwhelmigly voted for him and not the other past black candidates based on factors other than that he is of the same skin color (even though i'm sure it made it easier to do so).
Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[Blesbok]

Friend, first of all, I want to let you know that I respect your views. I am not stating that all URM programs & AA are appropriately placed, worded or targeted. My point is that corrective measures exist to address real problems (usually not created by the targeted group), and sure, bureaucratic solutions are rarely perfect. It’s not like minorities got together and said, hey, let’s let the Europeans steal our country enslave our people, take away our culture and pay us minimum wage to do day labor, have sky-high rates of crime, suicide and alcoholism just so our children can get scholarships that average Americans of Europeans descent won’t qualify for. I mean, really… this isn’t an “advantage” that any of us were plotting for. We are still living in a world that is reacting to recent history; I am optimistic and believe that generational changes in thinking will not only render these programs obsolete (eventually), but also render the ideas which made these programs necessary unacceptable. When you no longer hear anecdotes of folks being profiled/arrested simply for driving through white neighborhoods; followed department stores because they look suspicious; or red-lined for loans because of the neighborhood they live in, we will have arrived at that time.

To compare any medical school scholarship disadvantage you might incur because you are not a woman, poor or a minority to the vile history that the previous have had to endure is simply incongruent. If the AMA stops giving out medical school scholarships to 3rd or 4th year URMs that still might not mean more money for you. For all you know, these scholarships may be funded by specific individuals or agencies who are targeting minorities. If they don’t distribute the scholarships, then the money might just disappear –and who does that benefit?

Whether you are a URM, a woman, an Irish-Catholic in the 60s or whatever –there is a certain sense of enfranchisement that is realized when you see people like you succeed and break through barriers. This might make the difference in whether a young child becomes a street pharmacist and robs your house or a PharmD who fills your prescriptions; a teen mom or a woman dean. Everyone benefits when the social status of the underclass is upgraded. I think your anger (and this is mostly what troubles me, as I agree that there are often better/more efficient ways to address social problems than those in authority might choose) is a bit misplaced –there are far bigger problems in medicine and society than minority scholarships.

Again, you are assuming that all minorities are poor and can't make it on their own while all majorities are suddenly well off and have never had any hardships.