Opening a can of worms/beating a dead horse

[Blesbok]

Ok thats a little bit unfair. Obama is not the first black candidate in history. If it was just about race, blacks would have voted for other candidates that have run in the past (sharpton, chism etc).
He was the "right" black guy in addition to an unpopular incumbent admin. Which implies that they overwhelmigly voted for him and not the other past black candidates based on factors other than that he is of the same skin color (even though i'm sure it made it easier to do so).
Sorry to hijack the thread.

Ok, he is the first black candidate to ever receive the nomination from a party that has a snowball's chance in hell of winning the election. You are telling me that millions of black people that have never voted before just happened to decide to vote this year and just happen to decide to vote for a black person and that it had nothing to do with the color of his skin?

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[HurricaneKatt]

This sounds totally awful, but they tend to get the majority of the scholarship money anyway. Could you imagine what would happen if someone set up a scholarship fun just for white people? And you rarely see scholarships just for asians.

Actually someone DID do that once. It was small, just $200, and only done to prove a point. I don't know what it was called, if it still going, or how to find it, but my Gov't teacher told me about it. There was a HUGE controversy about it and all kinds of minorities were pissed and it went to court and everything. It was a couple of students trying to prove the exact point that this thread is trying to prove actually, and to fight "reverse discrimination." I would Google it. I'm not sure where to find more info sorry or I'd share it but I do know that it did happen. Supposedly it is still out there.

 

[HurricaneKatt]

FOUND IT!!!!

http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=2674267

http://www.jwharrison.com/blog/2006/11/30/scholarship-for-whites-only/

(and this third link is totally illegit I am sure, but it made me laugh lol that's a bit TOO extreme: http://www.nsm88.org/scholarship/scholarship.html )

 

[HurricaneKatt]

This idea echoes what I mentioned above. An innocent demonstration to make a point or something laden with ill-will. I don't think anyone would have a problem if there were scholarships for people of Irish, Croatian, Italian or Jewish descent -in fact there are such awards and scholarships. But a blanket scholarship for "white people." What does that mean? There are certainly cultural ties that bind the above groups of people, but there are no significant monolithic cultural experiences binding "white" people, unless you are among the crowd claiming solidarity under the banner of reverse discrimination. The only reason there are "black" scholarships vs. Zimbabwean, Ghanan etc. descent scholarships is because most black people have no idea what their African ancestry is -what binds them is the shared experience (past and present) of being a suspect class in America. The "white" scholarship analogy is absurd and obnoxious and taken entirely out of historical context.

I knew of someone once who was actually FROM Africa, and applied for an African American scholarship and DIDN"T get it because she was inelligible. Why was she inelligible? She was white. But she was from Africa.... (her parents moved to US from Africa, she was a registered citizen, but more "African" than many "African Americans" who have lived in the US for generations...)
Oh and the "white scholarship" only required applicants to be 1/4 caucaisan. Which includes Malcom X (according to the article), Obama (correct me if I am mistaken, I heard one of his parents is white?), and several other people who would otherwise classify as "minority."

I just think aplications (job, school, scholarship, anything) should be color-blind regardless. *shrugs* Best applicant gets it, regardless of race.

 

[scarletgirl777]

This idea echoes what I mentioned above. An innocent demonstration to make a point or something laden with ill-will. I don't think anyone would have a problem if there were scholarships for people of Irish, Croatian, Italian or Jewish descent -in fact there are such awards and scholarships. But a blanket scholarship for "white people." What does that mean? There are certainly cultural ties that bind the above groups of people, but there are no significant monolithic cultural experiences binding "white" people, unless you are among the crowd claiming solidarity under the banner of reverse discrimination. The only reason there are "black" scholarships vs. Zimbabwean, Ghanan etc. descent scholarships is because most black people have no idea what their African ancestry is -what binds them is the shared experience (past and present) of being a suspect class in America. The "white" scholarship analogy is absurd and obnoxious and taken entirely out of historical context.

What a great post. I also think that in general, the whole issue of historical context is just being totally overlooked in this debate--not surprising because it usually is, and that's partly responsible for many of the race relations issues we have today.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I knew of someone once who was actually FROM Africa, and applied for an African American scholarship and DIDN"T get it because she was inelligible. Why was she inelligible? She was white. But she was from Africa.... (her parents moved to US from Africa, she was a registered citizen, but more "African" than many "African Americans" who have lived in the US for generations...)
Oh and the "white scholarship" only required applicants to be 1/4 caucaisan. Which includes Malcom X (according to the article), Obama (correct me if I am mistaken, I heard one of his parents is white?), and several other people who would otherwise classify as "minority."

I just think aplications (job, school, scholarship, anything) should be color-blind regardless. *shrugs* Best applicant gets it, regardless of race.

A perfect example of overlooking historical context! This girl is African American by semantics only. Also, most minority scholarships do not require that you be "100%" minority.

 

[Blesbok]

This idea echoes what I mentioned above. An innocent demonstration to make a point or something laden with ill-will. I don't think anyone would have a problem if there were scholarships for people of Irish, Croatian, Italian or Jewish descent -in fact there are such awards and scholarships. But a blanket scholarship for "white people." What does that mean? There are certainly cultural ties that bind the above groups of people, but there are no significant monolithic cultural experiences binding "white" people, unless you are among the crowd claiming solidarity under the banner of reverse discrimination. The only reason there are "black" scholarships vs. Zimbabwean, Ghanan etc. descent scholarships is because most black people have no idea what their African ancestry is -what binds them is the shared experience (past and present) of being a suspect class in America. The "white" scholarship analogy is absurd and obnoxious and taken entirely out of historical context.

Exactly...

 

[silas2642]

Friend, first of all, I want to let you know that I respect your views. I am not stating that all URM programs & AA are appropriately placed, worded or targeted. My point is that corrective measures exist to address real problems (usually not created by the targeted group), and sure, bureaucratic solutions are rarely perfect. It’s not like minorities got together and said, hey, let’s let the Europeans steal our country enslave our people, take away our culture and pay us minimum wage to do day labor, have sky-high rates of crime, suicide and alcoholism just so our children can get scholarships that average Americans of Europeans descent won’t qualify for. I mean, really… this isn’t an “advantage” that any of us were plotting for. We are still living in a world that is reacting to recent history; I am optimistic and believe that generational changes in thinking will not only render these programs obsolete (eventually), but also render the ideas which made these programs necessary unacceptable. When you no longer hear anecdotes of folks being profiled/arrested simply for driving through white neighborhoods; followed department stores because they look suspicious; or red-lined for loans because of the neighborhood they live in, we will have arrived at that time.

To compare any medical school scholarship disadvantage you might incur because you are not a woman, poor or a minority to the vile history that the previous have had to endure is simply incongruent. If the AMA stops giving out medical school scholarships to 3rd or 4th year URMs that still might not mean more money for you. For all you know, these scholarships may be funded by specific individuals or agencies who are targeting minorities. If they don’t distribute the scholarships, then the money might just disappear –and who does that benefit?

Whether you are a URM, a woman, an Irish-Catholic in the 60s or whatever –there is a certain sense of enfranchisement that is realized when you see people like you succeed and break through barriers. This might make the difference in whether a young child becomes a street pharmacist and robs your house or a PharmD who fills your prescriptions; a teen mom or a woman dean. Everyone benefits when the social status of the underclass is upgraded. I think your anger (and this is mostly what troubles me, as I agree that there are often better/more efficient ways to address social problems than those in authority might choose) is a bit misplaced –there are far bigger problems in medicine and society than minority scholarships.

I don't think anyone is arguing that there is a problem with there being an under-represented number of certain ethnic minorities in medicine. But what irks some people (like me) is that throwing money at the problem, particularly during the 3rd and 4th year of medicine, especially when you don't take other factors into consideration (i.e. socioECONOMIC status) is really, really not looking at the entire picture. How many URM's in your class have you met that really came from the ghettos and truly overcame?

I think that it's fair to state that most of the URM's are from the same middle class if not upper-middle class environment that the majority of our class is. I don't know why it's fair that scholarships are set up just for them when my friend down the hall had to work throughout his childhood in his parent's restaurant (1st generation immigrants who barely speak english), graduated valedictorian in his class, and still managed to get into med school. Why isn't a person with his background entitled to more scholarship money?

You want to increase URM's in medicine? Then fix the real problem and go back to the schools with the kids in it and equalize them. Don't punish the debt-ridden med students for the mistakes of society.

 

[Mr hawkings]

I don't think anyone is arguing that there is a problem with there being an under-represented number of certain ethnic minorities in medicine. But what irks some people (like me) is that throwing money at the problem, particularly during the 3rd and 4th year of medicine, especially when you don't take other factors into consideration (i.e. socioECONOMIC status) is really, really not looking at the entire picture. How many URM's in your class have you met that really came from the ghettos and truly overcame?

I think that it's fair to state that most of the URM's are from the same middle class if not upper-middle class environment that the majority of our class is. I don't know why it's fair that scholarships are set up just for them when my friend down the hall had to work throughout his childhood in his parent's restaurant (1st generation immigrants who barely speak english), graduated valedictorian in his class, and still managed to get into med school. Why isn't a person with his background entitled to more scholarship money?

You want to increase URM's in medicine? Then fix the real problem and go back to the schools with the kids in it and equalize them. Don't punish the debt-ridden med students for the mistakes of society.

Wait. How is it punishing anybody.
My sate school has scholarships specifically individuals who come from certain rural parts of the state. I dont see that as punishing me just because i dont qualify for them. My financial situation would be the same whether that scholarship exists or not.
You can argue that it would help more people if the scholarship was available to every one, but i dont understand how it punishes you if it is only available to one segment of students just because you dont fall under that segment.

And to address your "friend". There are plenty of scholarships and grants for recent immigrants (new citizens) and 2nd gen immigrants (regardless of race). many children of europlean immigrants are reciepients. And yes, these are set up just for them and not all med students. Can we complain about those too now?

 

[Pghboy18]

Wait. How is it punishing anybody.
My sate school has scholarships specifically individuals who come from certain rural parts of the state. I dont see that as punishing me just because i dont qualify for them. My financial situation would be the same whether that scholarship exists or not.
You can argue that it would help more people if the scholarship was available to every one, but i dont understand how it punishes you if it is only available to one segment of students just because you dont fall under that segment.

And to address your "friend". There are plenty of scholarships and grants for recent immigrants (new citizens) and 2nd gen immigrants (regardless of race). many children of europlean immigrants are reciepients. And yes, these are set up just for them and not all med students. Can we complain about those too now?

I'm with you on this. As a white guy who is going to completely self-finance (as in no money from anyone else) and join the ranks of those with 200K in debt, I don't really care if the AMA wants to designate scholarship money for minority students. Is it fair? I don't know, I'm not an expert in the social and economic hardships facing minorities in the U.S. Is it the responsibility of the AMA to try to correct all of the ills of society? Definitely not. Is it really going to affect my ability to go to medical school? No.

I hate the white guilt thing as much as the next guy, but let's no blow this out of proportion. Maybe this money is going to go to an incredible future doc who never would have a chance otherwise. I'm not sure why his skin color would prevent him from taking out a loan, just like me. At the same time, I'm not going to assume that I really understand his/her situation well enough to judge.

 

[kakalak]

Maybe this money is going to go to an incredible future doc who never would have a chance otherwise.

Never have a chance otherwise? These people are already in medical school, and last time i checked most people finish once they get in.

 

[Pghboy18]

Never have a chance otherwise? These people are already in medical school, and last time i checked most people finish once they get in.

My bad.

Still doesn't really bother me.

And $10,000 covers about 1/3 of annual tuition at most schools. It's just not that big a deal.

 

[meister]

To be honest most of you guys who oppose this come off as incredible whiners, quite frankly. Life is not fair, and you can definitely ask any of your non-white classmates what that means the next chance you get, I guarantee you they know. So you're white and poor? That sucks, I feel you, and there actually is aid for people with low family net incomes at most schools. In addition to that aid, a lot of schools have aid specifically targeted to URMs, and in this case the AMA has the scholarship. This is perfectly acceptable since it is trying to correct an obvious problem with the medical profession of over-representation of white men and women.

If you don't get this then I don't know what anyone call tell you to open your mind up enough to understand. If you're posting in this thread complaining about this even though your dad is a CT surgeon and your mom is a teacher, kindly stop posting as it's clear you don't "get it." Thanks.

I'm with you on this. As a white guy who is going to completely self-finance (as in no money from anyone else) and join the ranks of those with 200K in debt, I don't really care if the AMA wants to designate scholarship money for minority students. Is it fair? I don't know, I'm not an expert in the social and economic hardships facing minorities in the U.S. Is it the responsibility of the AMA to try to correct all of the ills of society? Definitely not. Is it really going to affect my ability to go to medical school? No.

It is not the AMA's responsibility to correct all the social ills in America, but it should definitely be the AMA's responsibility to bring down the image of doctors in the US as rich white men.

Look at how people think of CEOs, senators or lawyers to see why this is a bad thing.

 

[78222]

To be honest most of you guys who oppose this come off as incredible whiners, quite frankly. Life is not fair, and you can definitely ask any of your non-white classmates what that means the next chance you get, I guarantee you they know. So you're white and poor? That sucks, I feel you, and there actually is aid for people with low family net incomes at most schools. In addition to that aid, a lot of schools have aid specifically targeted to URMs, and in this case the AMA has the scholarship. This is perfectly acceptable since it is trying to correct an obvious problem with the medical profession of over-representation of white men and women.

Why does being a minority necessitate knowing that "life isn't fair" anymore than anyone? If a URM has a CT surgeon for a father and a teacher for their mother, why would life be any more unfair for them than your typical poor white student? Oh because being black automatically means you are discriminated against right? Like Obama, who has faced so much discrimination that he is POTUS... The only color that matters in this country is green - if you have it you will grow up privileged, if not you are gonna have to work 10x as hard as anyone else.

I also think the "life isn't fair" argument is a load of ****. The same argument could have been made for preserving segregation. Life isn't fair, so shouldn't we try to make it more fair?

It is not the AMA's responsibility to correct all the social ills in America, but it should definitely be the AMA's responsibility to bring down the image of doctors in the US as rich white men.

And for the hundredth time on this thread, how is giving M2/M3 students going to change the image of doctors in the USA? THEY ARE ALREADY IN MEDICAL SCHOOL! What part of this don't you understand.

 

[meister]

Like Obama, who has faced so much discrimination that he is POTUS... The only color that matters in this country is green - if you have it you will grow up privileged, if not you are gonna have to work 10x as hard as anyone else.

Yes, Obama being elected president means we have no racial discrimination or prejudice in this country, you're right. Oh wait, except that that is 100% wrong and I think you know that. What an astoundingly ignorant thing to say.

I also think the "life isn't fair" argument is a load of ****. The same argument could have been made for preserving segregation. Life isn't fair, so shouldn't we try to make it more fair?

Yes giving URMs scholarship money is the same as segregation. Do you have any idea how ridiculously whiny you sound?

And for the hundredth time on this thread, how is giving M2/M3 students going to change the image of doctors in the USA? THEY ARE ALREADY IN MEDICAL SCHOOL! What part of this don't you understand.

Because making things easier in school helps them finish? Because URMs are in fact not illiterate and can check out medical student scholarships just as easily as anyone else? Why is this difficult for you to understand?

 

[78222]

Yes, Obama being elected president means we have no racial discrimination or prejudice in this country, you're right. Oh wait, except that that is 100% wrong and I think you know that. What an astoundingly ignorant thing to say.

Sure we still have racial discrimination in this country. I'd say it's just as much black on white discrimination as vice versa though. Having a black man elected to the office of president shows that the majority of this country is not using race as a factor when determining someones capabilities.

My earlier question remains unanswered, when will you consider there to be racial equality in this country? What are your markers? Is there ever going to be a point where you'll say "hey, guess we're equal now, let's cut these programs which prefer one race over another"?

Yes giving URMs scholarship money is the same as segregation. Do you have any idea how ridiculously whiny you sound?

I never made that comparison, perhaps you should work on your reading comprehension skills rather than becoming shrill.

Because making things easier in school helps them finish? Because URMs are in fact not illiterate and can check out medical student scholarships just as easily as anyone else? Why is this difficult for you to understand?

Quit trying to create strawmen by accusing me of calling URMs illiterate. What is the attrition rate of URMs after the first year of medical school in comparison to non-URM students - how does giving them scholarship money change it? Giving a scholarship doesn't change the total amount of money they are eligible for, it just means less of that money is in loans.

If you can't argue with logic rather than just getting angry and using race baiting tactics, I have no interest in discussing this with you.

 

[silas2642]

To be honest most of you guys who oppose this come off as incredible whiners, quite frankly. Life is not fair, and you can definitely ask any of your non-white classmates what that means the next chance you get, I guarantee you they know. So you're white and poor? That sucks, I feel you, and there actually is aid for people with low family net incomes at most schools. In addition to that aid, a lot of schools have aid specifically targeted to URMs, and in this case the AMA has the scholarship. This is perfectly acceptable since it is trying to correct an obvious problem with the medical profession of over-representation of white men and women.

If you don't get this then I don't know what anyone call tell you to open your mind up enough to understand. If you're posting in this thread complaining about this even though your dad is a CT surgeon and your mom is a teacher, kindly stop posting as it's clear you don't "get it." Thanks.

It is not the AMA's responsibility to correct all the social ills in America, but it should definitely be the AMA's responsibility to bring down the image of doctors in the US as rich white men.

Look at how people think of CEOs, senators or lawyers to see why this is a bad thing.

Ouch. Because white people have never faced anything that would make them realize that "life isn't fair." Yeah, life isn't fair, but that doesn't mean that we should continue to make things more fair-- I guess we could use that argument all the time no matter when you see something that is not right, but that would be wrong. I'm not saying that these scholarships should not have preference to URM's; I am saying that they should take both race and economic hardships into consideration-- if a URM comes from a background where their parents are both physicians, they had the opportunity of a private undergraduate education, etc., then why should they have the advantage of an extra scholarship vs. a Caucasian or Asian student who did overcome a significant economic or social burden just because of their race?

 

[meister]

Sure we still have racial discrimination in this country. I'd say it's just as much black on white discrimination as vice versa though. Having a black man elected to the office of president shows that the majority of this country is not using race as a factor when determining someones capabilities.

It's nice to live in a fantasy land but you're delusional if you think that just because someone votes for a black guy it means they don't care about race. And you're extra delusional if you don't think there is still a whole lot of institutional **** hurled in the direction of URMs to this day. Ever heard of the drug war? Are you aware that 1 in 6 black males is imprisoned?

My earlier question remains unanswered, when will you consider there to be racial equality in this country? What are your markers? Is there ever going to be a point where you'll say "hey, guess we're equal now, let's cut these programs which prefer one race over another"?

Yeah, probably when there isn't a vested interest in reducing the perception that doctors aren't just a bunch of rich white guys. Hint: perhaps when URMs are no longer under-represented.

What is the attrition rate of URMs after the first year of medical school in comparison to non-URM students

Well your question is pretty specific but URMs are almost certainly at higher risk to not eventually become practicing physicians.

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf

[N]oting that, by 1997, 87% of minority medical students who matriculated in 1990 had graduated from medical school; and that, by 1996, 88% of African-American and 95% of Hispanic medical students had passed the three-part national medical school examination

how does giving them scholarship money change it? Giving a scholarship doesn't change the total amount of money they are eligible for, it just means less of that money is in loans.

Yes if I had zero loan money and zero debt I would be as stressed out about life as I am now. Do you really need me to explain this to you?

I am saying that they should take both race and economic hardships into consideration-- if a URM comes from a background where their parents are both physicians, they had the opportunity of a private undergraduate education, etc., then why should they have the advantage of an extra scholarship vs. a Caucasian or Asian student who did overcome a significant economic or social burden just because of their race?

This position isn't that unreasonable.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, by the way.

 

[sirus_virus]

You guys are tranfering your agression to the wrong people. It is the criminals charging >150K for medschool that you should be angry at. This is not about minorities, it is about medical schools jacking their students

 

[meister]

You guys are tranfering your agression to the wrong people. It is the criminals charging >150K for medschool that you should be angry at. This is not about minorities, it is about medical schools jacking their students

Yeah you are pretty much right about that, schools knowing that with federal loans they can charge us the max and we all just check the box to take out the max and no one's the wiser.

Also your large font and boldness solidified your position in my mind.

 

[Blesbok]

It's nice to live in a fantasy land but you're delusional if you think that just because someone votes for a black guy it means they don't care about race. And you're extra delusional if you don't think there is still a whole lot of institutional **** hurled in the direction of URMs to this day. Ever heard of the drug war? Are you aware that 1 in 6 black males is imprisoned?

What does this have to do with anything? Are you saying it is somehow the fault of white males that 1/6 black men decides to do something that gets them placed in prison? If anything the URMs should be pissed off at the 1/6 black males in prison for making them look bad and causing a "whole lot of insitutional ****" to be hurled their direction in the first place.

 

[silas2642]

It's nice to live in a fantasy land but you're delusional if you think that just because someone votes for a black guy it means they don't care about race. And you're extra delusional if you don't think there is still a whole lot of institutional **** hurled in the direction of URMs to this day. Ever heard of the drug war? Are you aware that 1 in 6 black males is imprisoned?

Yeah, probably when there isn't a vested interest in reducing the perception that doctors aren't just a bunch of rich white guys. Hint: perhaps when URMs are no longer under-represented.

Well your question is pretty specific but URMs are almost certainly at higher risk to not eventually become practicing physicians.

http://www.aamc.org/diversity/amicusbrief.pdf


Yes if I had zero loan money and zero debt I would be as stressed out about life as I am now. Do you really need me to explain this to you?

This position isn't that unreasonable.

I didn't mean to offend anyone, by the way.

Do not throw the "1/6 black males are imprisoned" argument at me. People in prison made choices, bad choices that landed them there. The best thing that those people in prison could do for themselves would be to actually take responsibility for something they did, like their crimes. Are there innocent people in prison? Yes, of course, but on the whole, most people who are in jail belong there. There are plenty of other people who faced hardship and horrible backgrounds who did not go out and commit crimes. On the whole, I do not feel all that bad for people who are in jail, I feel bad for their victims. And whoever presumed that the people on this forum who don't believe in large amount of scholarship money going to people based solely on race are all white-- guess what, I'm not white.

 

[PepperMD]

Here's a possible wet blanket for those complaining that this scholarship only takes race into account instead of socioeconomic status. A closer read of the scholarship announcement suggests that they are considering both race AND financial need:

"The Minority Scholars Award recognizes personal commitment to improving minority health status, scholastic achievement and financial need among minority students."

As a bonus, note the inclusion of "scholastic achievement" and "commitment to minority health" as selection criteria. In this light, the scholarship appears to be less problematic as it does appear to have a merit-based component as well as the indication that the recipient be dedicated to giving back to the minority community. It's not just "we like minorities, have some money", it's "we like minorities who are smart/work hard in school and have a desire to help other minorities". I think this is a lot easier to swallow. But then again, arguing is fun and entertaining...

 

[78222]

Well, I'm sure there will be some other reason to malign minorities and blame them for stealing funds from better qualified white students. It's amazing how people with so little presence in the medical profession have become such a repository for so much resentment and demeaning rhetoric. I wonder how individuals with so little perspective will become the compassionate and culturally competent physicians that we all say we want to be.

No wonder the "U.S. is a 'nation of cowards' on race discussions". If anyone other than a minority has the audacity to bring up anything race related, they are accused of racism by people like you and meister. No one on this thread has said anything negative about minorities. Yet you and meister come in here hurling accusations around which make most people afraid to even say anything.

 

[meister]

Do not throw the "1/6 black males are imprisoned" argument at me. People in prison made choices, bad choices that landed them there. The best thing that those people in prison could do for themselves would be to actually take responsibility for something they did, like their crimes. Are there innocent people in prison? Yes, of course, but on the whole, most people who are in jail belong there. There are plenty of other people who faced hardship and horrible backgrounds who did not go out and commit crimes. On the whole, I do not feel all that bad for people who are in jail, I feel bad for their victims. And whoever presumed that the people on this forum who don't believe in large amount of scholarship money going to people based solely on race are all white-- guess what, I'm not white.

Wow, you really are ignorant. The United States imprisons more of its citizens than any country in the world, ever. Think about that for a second. More than China. More than Russia.

Does that sound ok to you? Do you think maybe there's something else going on here more complex than "people in prison made a choice"? I sure hope you do.

Anyway it's pretty obvious that there is some pretty heavy racial prejudices ingrained in society and I don't think they'll go away until the horrible generation that calls itself the baby boomers dies out finally. The hippies sure did **** up didn't they?

 

[meister]

No wonder the "U.S. is a 'nation of cowards' on race discussions". If anyone other than a minority has the audacity to bring up anything race related, they are accused of racism by people like you and meister. No one on this thread has said anything negative about minorities. Yet you and meister come in here hurling accusations around which make most people afraid to even say anything.

It's not the fact that you're talking about race, it's the fact that you've revealed yourself to be blindingly and exceedingly ignorant.

Anyway this scholarship turned out to be not as bad as everyone assumed so this discussion is pretty much moot. But I hope you take a second to ponder the fact that the US is a very ****ed up place in certain ways, especially when it comes to the number of people we have in our prisons. Your take home thought for the day. Maybe things aren't as simple as you think.

 

[Blesbok]

Wow, you really are ignorant. The United States imprisons more of its citizens than any country in the world, ever. Think about that for a second. More than China. More than Russia.

Does that sound ok to you? Do you think maybe there's something else going on here more complex than "people in prison made a choice"? I sure hope you do.

Anyway it's pretty obvious that there is some pretty heavy racial prejudices ingrained in society and I don't think they'll go away until the horrible generation that calls itself the baby boomers dies out finally. The hippies sure did **** up didn't they?

Ya, it has to be the racial discrimination... that must be why America imprisons more than any other country. It couldn't have to do with the fact that we have a much better legal system and the resources to punish those that are caught committing crimes.

 

[78222]

Wow, you really are ignorant. The United States imprisons more of its citizens than any country in the world, ever. Think about that for a second. More than China. More than Russia.

Does that sound ok to you? Do you think maybe there's something else going on here more complex than "people in prison made a choice"? I sure hope you do.

Anyway it's pretty obvious that there is some pretty heavy racial prejudices ingrained in society and I don't think they'll go away until the horrible generation that calls itself the baby boomers dies out finally. The hippies sure did **** up didn't they?

Well, the main problem with our prison system is that we send too many people away for piddly little drug offenses. I personally think certain drugs should be decriminalized and violent criminals should spend more time behind bars.

Your argument comparing the number of prisoners in the US versus China is stupid. Amnesty International estimates the number of executions in China per year as high as 8,000. Compare that to the 60 or so in the US per year. If we executed as frequently as the Chinese did our prison population would be much lower than it is.

Btw, it was that horrible baby boomer generation that made the civil rights movement possible.

Judging by your posts, you have way more hatred and racial prejudice than most people I've met. Perhaps you need to evaluate your own racial biases.

It's not the fact that you're talking about race, it's the fact that you've revealed yourself to be blindingly and exceedingly ignorant.

Anyway this scholarship turned out to be not as bad as everyone assumed so this discussion is pretty much moot. But I hope you take a second to ponder the fact that the US is a very ****ed up place in certain ways, especially when it comes to the number of people we have in our prisons. Your take home thought for the day. Maybe things aren't as simple as you think.

You have yet to actually respond to my questions. You just call me ignorant for not taking your "the USA is racist!" argument without any supporting evidence (and I don't consider your prison statistics as doing anything to support your case).

 

[meister]

Ya, it has to be the racial discrimination... that must be why America imprisons more than any other country. It couldn't have to do with the fact that we have a much better legal system and the resources to punish those that are caught committing crimes.

Oh that's rich, you really are a funny chap.

Well, the main problem with our prison system is that we send too many people away for piddly little drug offenses. I personally think certain drugs should be decriminalized and violent criminals should spend more time behind bars.

Are you aware of the penalty disparity between equal amounts of crack cocaine vs. powder cocaine that existed for two decades that resulted in untold thousands of black men being sent to prison for years instead of weekend stints in the pokey? Think that had anything to do at all with race?

Your argument comparing the number of prisoners in the US versus China is stupid. Amnesty International estimates the number of executions in China per year as high as 8,000. Compare that to the 60 or so in the US per year. If we executed as frequently as the Chinese did our prison population would be much lower than it is.

This is an interesting argument. You really think executing more people would bring our prison population to Chinese levels? Do you know how many people are even in prison? Like ballpark?

Btw, it was that horrible baby boomer generation that made the civil rights movement possible.

No, the civil rights movement happened because of Earl Warren and LBJ. If you didn't have those two guys strong-arming the feds then Strom Thurmond and the dixiecrats would have extended it for god knows how long. This country has real problems dealing with change, and the baby boomers were no different. But I've come to hate them for their selfish entitlement accepting nay-saying attitude.

Judging by your posts, you have way more hatred and racial prejudice than most people I've met. Perhaps you need to evaluate your own racial biases.

Where do I seemingly come off as hateful towards other races?

You have yet to actually respond to my questions. You just call me ignorant for not taking your "the USA is racist!" argument without any supporting evidence (and I don't consider your prison statistics as doing anything to support your case).

Whatever man, you're a lost cause. You're right, I was wrong. The US is now color-blind thanks to our savior Obama. Everyone is treated equally and white folks have it just as tough as black/Hispanic folks. Yup.

 

[meister]

Well, the main problem with our prison system is that we send too many people away for piddly little drug offenses. I personally think certain drugs should be decriminalized and violent criminals should spend more time behind bars.

Oh I meant to give you props for this opinion, I'll go ahead and second this.

Anyone who argues that our criminal justice system is the best in the world (Blesbok) needs to pull their head out of the sand, or needs to stop trolling.

 

[flaahless]

I received a few scholarships when I applied, and a dean explained to me that the idea was to would mitigate my financial burden and allow me to pursue a residency of my choice (primary care). The AMA possibly considered this in there decision to market a minority scholarship.

I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of minority physicians that enter primary care specialties to assess if this is a legit tactic.

 

[silas2642]

Wow, you really are ignorant. The United States imprisons more of its citizens than any country in the world, ever. Think about that for a second. More than China. More than Russia.

Does that sound ok to you? Do you think maybe there's something else going on here more complex than "people in prison made a choice"? I sure hope you do.

Anyway it's pretty obvious that there is some pretty heavy racial prejudices ingrained in society and I don't think they'll go away until the horrible generation that calls itself the baby boomers dies out finally. The hippies sure did **** up didn't they?

I never said that complex sociodemographic disparities existed b/w different ethnicities and most likely partially accounted for a disproportional number of imprisoned African-American men. My point is, don't turn what THEY did and blame it on society. Plenty of crap happens to plenty of people, worse than what happens to a lot of criminals, and they don't go out and break the law.
The people who are in prison are not the victim, so stop victimizing them.

 

[MediumDef]

I received a few scholarships when I applied, and a dean explained to me that the idea was to would mitigate my financial burden and allow me to pursue a residency of my choice (primary care). The AMA possibly considered this in there decision to market a minority scholarship.

I'd be interested in seeing the numbers of minority physicians that enter primary care specialties to assess if this is a legit tactic.

Probably yes and no. Whether or not a physician practices in an under-served community has a lot to do with where they are originally from but specialty choice has little(if anything) to do with overall level of indebtedness at time of graduation. So while your deans reasoning sounds good it doesn't really work.

 

[flaahless]

Probably yes and no. Whether or not a physician practices in an under-served community has a lot to do with where they are originally from but specialty choice has little(if anything) to do with overall level of indebtedness at time of graduation. So while your deans reasoning sounds good it doesn't really work.

Ehh... I think finances can play a significant role in specialty choice, and level of indebtedness is certainly in that calculation.

 

[flaahless]

surebreC, apparently there is an experiential gap that this discussion is simply not going to bridge. If you feel you’ve been wronged, write to the AMA, your senator and your buddies at FoxNews. I’m sure you’ll get some exposure and carve a nice niche in history for yourself for speaking out against the great injustices that you and your similarly aggrieved peers have endured. You started this thread by admitting that you were opening a can of worms and beating a dead horse –well, you proved yourself right. You knew you were going to antagonize and offend people, and you have.

No one is saying that that US citizens are (largely or consciously) racist or that giving URM college students scholarships is the best way to make the playing field level. But when you found a society on principles that convince most citizens that a certain segment of the population is less valuable and less human (a sentiment that, sadly, the said segment of people to some extent internalizes) then you are going to have some long-term, hard-to solve problems. Even when individuals can overcome this history, there is a cultural shift that needs to occur. Anti-minority sentiment has shaped the arc of American history and there is evidence of this everywhere –numerous examples have already been provided to you. You can choose to be offended by every minority program or realize that these efforts are attempts to address broad cultural and social problems that transcend the individual –if you were simply trying to send a message that the money would be better applied to undergrads or high school students, then surely there was a more sensitive way to do this than posting yet another anti-URM thread on SDN. Again, there are plenty of programs to help disadvantaged students regardless of race throughout the medical school experience –but there are also programs to address the vast social disparities that exist between certain groups due to systemic problems –this is sensible and appropriate. In your discussions with all of your black and Hispanic friends and family members, have you ever garnered a sense of the lingering effects of social marginalization and institutionalized bias?

Chuuch.

 

[Nanon]

Chuuch.

I second that.

 

[flaahless]

See, the bit in bold are the bit that we're not buying. You are not a victim, and there are no lingering effects of marginalization of vast social disparites which in some way make it harder for you to pass the MCAT or pay your bills when you're just as flat broke as the rest of us. There is no organized racism outside of a few bunkers in flyover country. There is, however, a very official and entrenched system of racial discrimination in favor of URMs. See we know that it exists, it's evidence based, in contast with what I will call the faith based racisim youre worried about. We know it exists because the OP just got a letter telling him that they would like to help him through medical school, except that he's the wrong race so that's too bad.

Discrimination used to have a meaning that wasn't specific to racism. It meant 'to tell the difference between'. The concept of not discriminating on the basis of skin color meant that you would disregard the color of a man's skin the same way you all already disregard his/her hair and eye color in regard to every significant decision. That's a meaning we need to get back to.

Cointelpro.

 

[Luna1]

It's great to debate the necessity and fairness of AA scholarships as opposed to need based ones. However, you forget the reality of the development (fundraiser) world. This scholarship was created by some nameless donor who gave some huge chunk of change to be kept in the AMA endowment. As a condition of donating the sum, this celebrated donor requested that the interest of the endowment is given to some "......." group of people. That group of people could have been one-armed males from Oklahoma. The fundraiser would have taken it, no matter what. It was the donor's choice whom to give the money to, and it had very little to do with fairness as we see it.

 

[scarletgirl777]

I second that.

Thirded. And to the person that commented that debt has "no bearing" on specialty choice...find that very hard to believe. It's gotta be hard to go into primary care or a similarly paying specialty when you're 250K in the hole.

 

[scarletgirl777]

See, the bit in bold are the bit that we're not buying. You are not a victim, and there are no lingering effects of marginalization of vast social disparites which in some way make it harder for you to pass the MCAT or pay your bills when you're just as flat broke as the rest of us. There is no organized racism outside of a few bunkers in flyover country. There is, however, a very official and entrenched system of racial discrimination in favor of URMs. See we know that it exists, it's evidence based, in contast with what I will call the faith based racisim youre worried about. We know it exists because the OP just got a letter telling him that they would like to help him through medical school, except that he's the wrong race so that's too bad.

Discrimination used to have a meaning that wasn't specific to racism. It meant 'to tell the difference between'. The concept of not discriminating on the basis of skin color meant that you would disregard the color of a man's skin the same way you all already disregard his/her hair and eye color in regard to every significant decision. That's a meaning we need to get back to.

Many sociologists and other academics would vehemently disagree--would perhaps in fact be appalled that you could be so dismissive.

 

[Nanon]

Thirded. And to the person that commented that debt has "no bearing" on specialty choice...find that very hard to believe. It's gotta be hard to go into primary care or a similarly paying specialty when you're 250K in the hole.

Absolutely. Of course debt limits your specialty options, particularly if you come from a background without the trappings of established, generational wealth. At a certain point in every career, who you know is as important as what you know. A well timed phone call from the right person can make the difference between a funded clinic and one that struggles.

Most of you know what my background is. If anyone would have a reason to bitch about the unfairness of it all, it would be me... but 1) I am well aware of the privileges I enjoy simply by virtue of being white, and 2) it turns out that I got a scholarship, apparently in spite of being white. Imagine that.

 

[45408]

1) I am well aware of the privileges I enjoy simply by virtue of being white

Such as?

and 2) it turns out that I got a scholarship, apparently in spite of being white.

I landed a few pretty decent scholarships when I was in college, all of which was through privately donated money. As long as scholarships are privately funded, you won't hear me arguing about who the money is going to. I will definitely consider funding an undergraduate scholarship when I'm a physician, and I would target it towards someone like me when I was in college - parents with a good income but aren't interested in giving it to the broke college student! I wouldn't consider race or gender in the equation - just academics, ECs and financial need.

 

[confuse]

I see many differing viewpoints here. I just want to add another viewpoint from the perspective of an immigrant. I would argue that unless you are an immigrant with Hispanic or African background, there is little love for immigrants from other countries (Asians or Eastern Europeans) provided for in the education system. The ghetto is actually quite nice compared to the conditions that some of the immigrants (I'm talking about legal immigrants) have to live when they first came from the US. It was not uncommon for immigrants to pack 6-10 people in a 1-2 bedroom apartment. Most immigrants coming from 3rd world countries have no education, thus no skills, no support system, and no savings except for what they carry in their suitcases. My cousins and my parents have to walk many miles to work because they have no cars and noone to ask for help. If you think racial discrimination is bad, well think about the type of discrimination and abuse that immigrants have to face when they do not understand English. Despite this, you won't hear many immigrants complaining about not obtaining scholarship because they didn't meet the race criteria since most of us are simply grateful for free public education.
I think diversity is good in medicine so for that reason I support AA, but I have no empathy for anyone who feels like they are entitled to certain privileges in life due to some misdeeds that happened to their ancestors years ago, since not all URMs are underprivileged.

 

[Blesbok]

Many sociologists and other academics would vehemently disagree--would perhaps in fact be appalled that you could be so dismissive.

He/she was talking about two specific cases, not in general. It does not make the MCAT tougher and it does not make it any more difficult for you to pay bills given an equal income/debt.

 

[JeffLebowski]

I see many differing viewpoints here. I just want to add another viewpoint from the perspective of an immigrant. I would argue that unless you are an immigrant with Hispanic or African background, there is little love for immigrants from other countries (Asians or Eastern Europeans) provided for in the education system. The ghetto is actually quite nice compared to the conditions that some of the immigrants (I'm talking about legal immigrants) have to live when they first came from the US. It was not uncommon for immigrants to pack 6-10 people in a 1-2 bedroom apartment. Most immigrants coming from 3rd world countries have no education, thus no skills, no support system, and no savings except for what they carry in their suitcases. My cousins and my parents have to walk many miles to work because they have no cars and noone to ask for help. If you think racial discrimination is bad, well think about the type of discrimination and abuse that immigrants have to face when they do not understand English. Despite this, you won't hear many immigrants complaining about not obtaining scholarship because they didn't meet the race criteria since most of us are simply grateful for free public education.
I think diversity is good in medicine so for that reason I support AA, but I have no empathy for anyone who feels like they are entitled to certain privileges in life due to some misdeeds that happened to their ancestors years ago, since not all URMs are underprivileged.

Huh? It's not "discrimination" when people get frustrated with you or you face difficulties because you don't speak the language of the country you live in. Learn the language, man. This is a big frustration for a heck of a lot of healthcare providers. There are people who have been in this country for years and years who refuse (or possibly, are intellectually unable) to learn English.

And this is all a fine and dandy personal choice, albeit isolating, until all of a sudden you require public services, such as a driver's license or healthcare. Then we all have to scramble to accommodate the fact that you never learned English. We have to spend extra money on an army of interpreters for every language, and deal with all the legal and communication consequences. I'm sorry, but as a healthcare provider I'm just venting a little because we have so many patients like these. Do you have any idea how many doctors, nurses, PT/OT, phlebotomists, etc. come into a patient's room during the day? Someone comes in every 30 minutes at all hours of the day. Is it realistic to have a 24-hour interpreter at the bedside, so that we can get consent for every procedure, blood draw, communicate what we're doing, assess patient status, etc.? For every language? Come on. I realize many people are new here and it takes time to learn a language (and we always have to assume that and cut 'em a break), but geez this is getting out of control.

But that's beside the original point - which was that facing difficulties due to an inability to speak English is not discrimination.

 

[coldweatherblue]

Such as?

There are very real advantages to growing up as part of the culture that initiated and benefited from the Industrial Revolution and the years of technological development that preceded and followed it. The remnants of traditional Western society still form the basis for modern society (imo anyway, what language do we speak? we drive cars, we live in Western-style houses, use medicine based on Western science..). Coming from inside this background it's really impossible to understand the differences of a person trying to truly become part of this society from outside.

There are very historical reasons for why there are social disparities between ethnic groups in the U.S. I would argue though that the INDIVIDUAL is NOT "held down" by these Institutions, rather there are many provisions made to encourage individual success, however the stigma remains on both sides. People from outside Western culture want to keep true to their roots and avoid "Europeans destroying their culture, etc" as mentioned above; at the same time unless you become part of the big turning wheel of capitalism and play the game, it is very difficult to live in the U.S.. I think this causes people to become bitter because it requires more challenges to succeed. Look though, there are very obvious historical reasons for this. You can't dwell on it. The Industrial Revolution happened, it's over; if you want to succeed in the U.S. you can work hard and make it happen no matter from what background you come. However for some there are definite social barriers that must be overcome. For some groups more than others, there is a stigma associated with"playing the game" (ie. busting ass going to college, working hard all one's life, having a career). This is unfortunate but I don't think it's anyone's "fault". Yes there are disparities. Live, be happy, enjoy life.

 

[coldweatherblue]

BTW don't buy into the BS that our science and medicine is 'western'. It's a meme put out by Acupuncture and shaminism to try and make their crap seem like regional alternitives rather than an attack on good science. Medicine is just about equally drawn from all ends of the earth, both historically and in terms of modern research. Really the strongest historical claim for modern medicine is in the middle east. The Greeks we see as our intellectual ancestors practiced something much closer to homeopathy (not that they didn't have huge contributions to the field as well). Only the CAM voodoo is regional. Chiropractors are the western to Acupuncture's eastern, while medicine is universal.

Definitely today there are scientific advancements from all around the world. Are you saying that much of what we know today was not built on scientific principals developed in Europe and N. America from 1600-1950s? Where are the non-Western counterparts to Newton, Einstein, Pasteur, Banting, Freud, Galileo, Claude Bernard etc, and how do their influences compare?

 

[coldweatherblue]

You're switching between race and immigration. I agree that's it's very difficult to adapt when you come from the wrong culture and speak the wrong language and I fully support government programs to help those people adapt (and the understanding of their new countrymen as they do so). But there's nothing in your reasoning that explains why a non-white American has a disadvantage compared to a white American if they were both born here, in the same income bracket and location.

Just because someone was born in the U.S. does not mean that their background is the same as a 3rd-generation American from European ancestry, etc. I stated that the individual is absolutely able to succeed. However there are differences between groups that make it harder to "break out" of your surrounding culture. If you add in the qualifier "in the same income bracket and location" that argument breaks down. Look at a chart of inequality of wealth between ethnic groups in the U.S.; the inequality exists. I'm not saying anyone is "at fault" or anything, I'm just saying it exists. And I know that I'm talking about something not exactly related to URM med-students from upper-class backgrounds getting more scholarship opportunities, but the topic veered off a bit from there and that's the part to which I'm replying. Like I said earlier; these things might be unfair but I don't really care because I'm very proud of where I come from and it doesn't matter if part of the overall "pool" of wealth is given to someone else because maybe they need it and I'm going to succeed no matter what. What doesn't kill you makes you stronger, etc.

 

[flaahless]

Ended in 1971 (thanks wikipedia! also interesting article). I'm not saying the nation wasn't once a crazy hotbed of organized racism, heck I grew up in what used to be a slave state. What I'm saying is that it's over. When I see, for example, Jesse Jackson's son's attempt to take up the mantel of civil rights leadership I view it pretty much the same way I would view general Patton's grandson trying to reinvade Germany. This battle is over, the good side won, and now it's time to put down your weapons (Affirmitive Action). Just my opinion.

Cointelpro was just one example. (It is a pretty cool read though) Also wikipedia "redlining." Sure we have civil rights, but a written policy doesn't end the practice. The battle isn't over. A better analogy would be Chernobyl. When something has the magnitude of of centuries of overt oppression, there will be a large fallout that needs to be dealt with and cleaned up. I think ignoring it's existence and it's effects is a bit naive.

This is the Allo forum, think of it from a medical perspective. When an invasive surgery is completed, you just don't stitch the patient up and send them on their merry way. Post-op provides a whole new set of challenges that must be addressed to ensure the survival of the patient. Same principal.

 

[DarknightX]

Finally, if you think, as you suggested in an earlier post, that the playing field is leveled, and that any sort of support for minorities is groundless in the present, you certainly delude yourself. If that is the case, I don't think anything I or anybody says will change your skewed perspective. It's clearly evident when you come in contact with these groups.

Ummm, I'm sorry, but the playing field is level in terms of race.. It is clearly evident that YOU haven't been in contact with these groups. What's the difference between a poor white person and a poor black person in this country? Could you tell me the extra advantages a white child has growing up if he has no money? The disparity is in financial situations, not race.

Poor people in this country have the disadvantage, and no one race hs the monopoly on being disadvantaged. Being financially disadvantaged is a HUGE disadvantage, but I have yet to see any proof as to how poor minorities have it any worse than poor whites.

I had a good family friend who had a daughter. Her father was very well off, and she got private tutoring, SAT classes, MCAT classes, the works. Her GPA and MCAT were ok, but not stellar.

On the flip side, one of my best friends growing up was white. His family was extremely poor, and he had to work throughout college to hep his family. No MCAT classes, no tutoring, plus a full time job and the stress of a struggling family. Yet he had a much better GPA and MCAT than the other girl I knew, but somehow she got accepted to multiple top 20 schools, while he was happy with a single out of state acceptance.

Ya that's really fair. I think you are the one who is deluding yourself.

(and for the record, not that it makes a difference to me, but I'm black and I don't understand the utility of affirmitive action or any of these other ridiculous programs anymore. If anything, they just lower the standards for minorities, and it is NEVER a good thing to lower standards.)