Opinion; Expanding Podiatric Residency for MD/DOs

[HalluxSlicer]

Would the profession of podiatry as a whole benefit if Podiatry / Foot & Ankle Surgery becomes an MD/DO, ACGME accredited 3 year residency program? Clearly, this decision will call for demise of the Podiatric Colleges and put a huge dent on these "Dean/CEOs" who only have money as their best interest over the quality of student education. Furthermore, it will alleviate the concerns for Podiatric Residencies closing as the numbers of graduates are ever decreasing due to low recruitment numbers (lets face it, opening of MD/DO schools every year coupled with NP/PA scope widening on the daily has put Podiatry in the backburner of many pre-med students), low APMLE Part 1 pass rates, and continuous attrition rates.

In grand scheme of things, this decision can widen the scope of future MD/DO Podiatrists though it'll call for obsoleteness of the DPM degree. Given, all the DPMs should be grandfathered in but honestly this could be the only idea to save the profession and put an end to the "Scope of practice" as well as "Parity" as let's face it... Podiatry / DPMs at this rate will never reach the satisfaction of MD/DOs. It's sad to say but students are very demotivated seeing the "Boomer Podiatrists" preying on the young, keeping vested interest in $$$$ over propelling the profession up in the APMA, CPME, insert all the bureaucratic organizations, and overall disappointment in seeing ABPM & ABFAS bickering over who is the most superior.

This is just an opinion from low-life podiatry student but entering clinicals has widened my eyes that everything these podiatry schools have promised us is really not there... I can totally understand why some jumped ships to the MD/DO/PA/NP world, left podiatry entirely after picking up a DPM to pursue something else, or floating the idea of getting the J.D. degree to be a consultant to sue podiatrists specifically as they saw the existence of many flaws within the field which is widely talked about on this dreaded website

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[Adam Smasher]

I don't understand the question. I like your suggestion about abolishing podiatry school and sending the Deans to the unemployment office, however.

 

[HalluxSlicer]

Yes

 

[icebreaker32]

They already have enough foot and ankle fellowships for MDs. They can give up a few bunions and toenails and don't want to be saturated.

No podiatry would not benefit from this either. We would massively benefit from capping enrollment at 200 to 300. It will never happen voluntarily, so either it happens on its own with less applicants or podiatry continues with the same problems, poor job market and questionable ROI.

 

[heybrother]

If you are sitting here waiting for something "magical" or "life changing" to happen to the field of podiatry ie. greater incorporation, absorption of our schools into the MD/DO fold, DPM becoming MD, our residencies being overseen by ACGME, grandfathering - whatever - It Is Not Going to Happen.

Do not wait for or expect magical things. Do not be some sad old podiatrist voting in PM News about "Should DPMs be grandfathered in as MDs".

Be the amazing doctor you want to be by dropping out of podiatry school and becoming an MD/DO - haha - jk. I do love what we do here

Be the amazing doctor you want to be by mastering everything you can about the foot and ankle and doing a great job.

The next few years will be interesting depending upon whether podiatry school matriculation continues to crater.

And remember. I will never stop sharing the truth here. So if I disappear tomorrow - I was murdered by the APMA. I need you to continue our glorious purpose.

 

[AttackNME]

Not gonna happen, conversely, think any MD/DO graduates wanna apply to a podiatry residency?

 

[wakaflocka88]

Bro, wait till you start residency. Do your best to obtain a good program. Or you’re going to see for worse things at the lower end programs.

 

[Pronation]

In my opinion residency should be a combined DPM/RN degree that way we can get more exposure to bedpan operating techniques.

 

[PatchAdamsFan]

In my opinion residency should be a combined DPM/RN degree that way we can get more exposure to bedpan operating techniques.

If that happens, the new generation of pods won't know if betadine is good or bad for wounds and their minds would break. It would bump up our associates to an RN base salary though...

 

[HardRoadPaved]

In my opinion residency should be a combined DPM/RN degree that way we can get more exposure to bedpan operating techniques.

The RN would eliminate a scope issue. We cant go above the knee so now we have to wait for it to drop in. Might be better to add in a CAQ to certify competency in this after formal residency training.

 

[Shiyuan]

The RN would eliminate a scope issue. We cant go above the knee so now we have to wait for it to drop in.

To reiterate Cuts... getting universal scope is paramount.

 

[LossToFollowUp]

The white paper should clue in to how ridiculous our associations are and their approach to parity. They wanted us to take the Steps and undergo the necessary MD training but not have an MD/DO degree AND still have a limited scope! *insert Nick Young meme*

IMO, there are two points that need addressing before we can even talk parity with MD/DO:
1. universal scope <--- most important
2. restructure current residencies to sort out value of having everyone graduate with PMSR/RRA.

 

[air bud]

Let's not waste our time on this thread...

 

[air bud]

The white paper should clue in to how ridiculous our associations are and their approach to parity. They wanted us to take the Steps and undergo the necessary MD training but not have an MD/DO degree AND still have a limited scope! *insert Nick Young meme*

IMO, there are two points that need addressing before we can even talk parity with MD/DO:
1. universal scope <--- most important
2. restructure current residencies to sort out value of having everyone graduate with PMSR/RRA.

May I direct your attention to the meme thread? I look forward to your contribution. If you need help with templates or meme resources reach out to any PodioMEMEtric Council members including myself, @icebreaker32 @Feli @ToeFather @HardRoadPaved @heybrother .

 

[Adam Smasher]

Ok now I think I understand the question. Brace yourselves, folks, for a VERY cynical post.

The world of medicine is like an ecosystem. We all have to fill our role for the ecosystem to remain in balance. Ophtho has gotta do ophtho, medicine has gotta do medicine, gen surg has gotta do gen surg. Sometimes technological advancements change the environment and species have an opportunity to go outside their niche--e.g. endovascular intervention done by vascular surgery? cards? interventional rads? We'll see which species survives or if they can overlap niches.

In the medical ecosystem, we are the bottom feeders. We treat problems that ANYONE can treat but are not worth others' time. Like the amputation cases where you can't tell the difference between a success and a complication. Like the obese 70-something with insertional Achilles tendonitis that NEVER. GETS. BETTER. And need I even mention the absolute HORDES of people who want their nails trimmed???

Not that it's so bad to be a bottom feeder. Lobsters are probably the most evolutionarily successful species on the planet.

Here's why I'm skeptical of any discussion about "parity." No one who finishes MD/DO school is going to choose to practice podiatry. It's not their niche. And deep down, all the DPMs striving for parity are really trying to get out of their niche. They want to not practice podiatry.

 

[air bud]

Ok now I think I understand the question. Brace yourselves, folks, for a VERY cynical post.

The world of medicine is like an ecosystem. We all have to fill our role for the ecosystem to remain in balance. Ophtho has gotta do ophtho, medicine has gotta do medicine, gen surg has gotta do gen surg. Sometimes technological advancements change the environment and species have an opportunity to go outside their niche--e.g. endovascular intervention done by vascular surgery? cards? interventional rads? We'll see which species survives or if they can overlap niches.

In the medical ecosystem, we are the bottom feeders. We treat problems that ANYONE can treat but are not worth others' time. Like the amputation cases where you can't tell the difference between a success and a complication. Like the obese 70-something with insertional Achilles tendonitis that NEVER. GETS. BETTER. And need I even mention the absolute HORDES of people who want their nails trimmed???

Not that it's so bad to be a bottom feeder. Lobsters are probably the most evolutionarily successful species on the planet.

Here's why I'm skeptical of any discussion about "parity." No one who finishes MD/DO school is going to choose to practice podiatry. It's not their niche. And deep down, all the DPMs striving for parity are really trying to get out of their niche. They want to not practice podiatry.

I feel like Lobster may be too generous. Carp? Lamprey or hagfish? Maybe Remora since we are trying to attach to/ feed off of being a Doctor?

 

[Adam Smasher]

I feel like Lobster may be too generous. Carp? Lamprey or hagfish? Maybe Remora since we are trying to attach to/ feed off of being a Doctor?

Lobsters are also known to eat their young

 

[DexterMorganSK]

In the medical ecosystem, we are the bottom feeders. We treat problems that ANYONE can treat but are not worth others' time.

I disagree with this sentence. Maybe it is true for the DPMs from the olden days; those without residency training, or those that only know how to trim toenails. Today's graduates, depending on the program they went to, understand and treat conditions only we can.

 

[Adam Smasher]

I disagree with this sentence. Maybe it is true for the DPMs from the olden days; those without residency training, or those that only know how to trim toenails. Today's graduates, depending on the program they went to, understand and treat conditions only we can.

evidence

 

[DexterMorganSK]

evidence

Visit the case forum: https://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/surgery-showcase-for-pre-pods.1472773/

Some of the cases, now deleted, by @DYK343 were very cool. I hope they can post more in the future.

I urge others to post their cases in that thread as long as the patient consents.

 

[Reverdin green]

Why do a lot of people who post here so negative? Jesus Christ at the end of the day it is just a job! Who cares what people think about you? You save lives and contribute your quota to the healthcare system. Life is too short for breeze of negativity I sense in this Podiatry forum.

 

[icebreaker32]

Why do a lot of people who post here so negative? Jesus Christ at the end of the day it is just a job! Who cares what people think about you? You save lives and contribute your quota to the healthcare system. Life is too short for breeze of negativity I sense in this Podiatry forum.

Agree....don't care too much what others think.

More about job market/saturation and ROI.

 

[Boba Foot]

Why do a lot of people who post here so negative? Jesus Christ at the end of the day it is just a job! Who cares what people think about you? You save lives and contribute your quota to the healthcare system. Life is too short for breeze of negativity I sense in this Podiatry forum.

Do you happen to have a mustache?

 

[PTPuser]

Idk...and I truly don't know what the best options are at this point.

All I know is that I am in too damn deep in this pile of dog feces that if it turns into complete mess like how everyone is predicting, i.e. *heybrother and feli have been pretty spot on* then I think I will have to get my RN and get a cereal box online degree NP and GTFO and do telemedicine.

Working at CVS minute clinic isn't even as bad as some of the associate gig I see right now in rotation.

If I saw what I seeing right now 4 years ago during shadowing, I wouldn't have done this.

 

[Adam Smasher]

Why do a lot of people who post here so negative? Jesus Christ at the end of the day it is just a job! Who cares what people think about you? You save lives and contribute your quota to the healthcare system. Life is too short for breeze of negativity I sense in this Podiatry forum.

Re-read my post, I spoke very positively about Lobsters

 

[Pronation]

I disagree with this sentence. Maybe it is true for the DPMs from the olden days; those without residency training, or those that only know how to trim toenails. Today's graduates, depending on the program they went to, understand and treat conditions only we can.

There is nothing that we do that other specialties don’t do. You’re a resident right? You’ll understand once you graduate…

 

[wakaflocka88]

I disagree with this sentence. Maybe it is true for the DPMs from the olden days; those without residency training, or those that only know how to trim toenails. Today's graduates, depending on the program they went to, understand and treat conditions only we can.

IMO there are only a handful of programs that provide full, complete, comprehensive F&A exposure with repetition. Then yes those grads fit the above statement. Majority do not. Which is sad. Circles back to CPME etc etc.

 

[Boba Foot]

Idk...and I truly don't know what the best options are at this point.

All I know is that I am in too damn deep in this pile of dog feces that if it turns into complete mess like how everyone is predicting, i.e. *heybrother and feli have been pretty spot on* then I think I will have to get my RN and get a cereal box online degree NP and GTFO and do telemedicine.

Working at CVS minute clinic isn't even as bad as some of the associate gig I see right now in rotation.

If I saw what I seeing right now 4 years ago during shadowing, I wouldn't have done this.

I understand the despair that work and life can bring. We’ve all been there at one point. But it’s not all terrible. I just bought a $1500 audiophile turntable and a $2500 amplifier. Once I get my Klipsch Heresy IV speakers it’ll all come together. Yes, this profession doesn’t have the high ceiling or others, but you can still do alright and see some benefits of the delayed gratification.

 

[PTPuser]

I understand the despair that work and life can bring. We’ve all been there at one point. But it’s not all terrible. I just bought a $1500 audiophile turntable and a $2500 amplifier. Once I get my Klipsch Heresy IV speakers it’ll all come together. Yes, this profession doesn’t have the high ceiling or others, but you can still do alright and see some benefits of the delayed gratification.

From your mouth to God's ears.

 

[Feli]

Not gonna happen, conversely, think any MD/DO graduates wanna apply to a podiatry residency?

I would think the MD/DO competitiveness for a podiatry residency would be somewhere in the lower middle...

It wouldn't ever pass ENT or derm, optho, plastics, ortho, or some other good hours + fun procedure ones with very high income, tightly controlled supply/demand, and significantly more glamourous work.

It likely wouldn't get into the stats of gen surg, ER, anesth, OB, etc... still more glamourous and/or higher per hour pay.

Podiatry would likely be middle of the pack with IM, PM&R, etc.

It would almost surely be more popular than peds, FP, path, psych, etc though.

...The problems with MD/DO matching podiatry are basically two:
1) It'll never happen. (other MD specialties F&A ortho, gen ortho, derm, vasc, etc already have foot covered)
2) There is a very real and worsening saturation for podiatry, which stifles incomes faster than scope can expand.

 

[DexterMorganSK]

There is nothing that we do that other specialties don’t do. You’re a resident right? You’ll understand once you graduate…

Without derailing this thread much, I don't need to complete residency to know what I am doing now can only be done for a fully-trained DPM or an F&A Ortho MD. But as stated above, it all comes down to your residency training.

We all have the same degree but have had different training, sadly.

 

[heybrother]

In my town they call me the "Flexor Tenotomy Lobster". Once the WHC centers have had their fill debriding a toe ulceration for a year or two I come along to nibble a little bit of sweet meat from the bone.

 

[icebreaker32]

Without derailing this thread much, I don't need to complete residency to know what I am doing now can only be done for a fully-trained DPM or an F&A Ortho MD. But as stated above, it all comes down to your residency training.

We all have the same degree but have had different training, sadly.

Hopefully you can use that good training you are receiving now without going to the Dakotas.

 

[Prehealth1011]

Podiatry would likely be middle of the pack with IM, PM&R, etc.

It would almost surely be more popular than peds, FP, path, psych, etc though.

...The problems with MD/DO matching podiatry are basically two:
1) It'll never happen. (other MD specialties F&A ortho, gen ortho, derm, vasc, etc already have foot covered)
2) There is a very real and worsening saturation for podiatry, which stifles incomes faster than scope can expand.

I think the lower middle sounds right. PM&R is the first thing that comes to my mind. Although with how things are now, the best comparable is probably pathology (job market concerns, primary care like salaries after longer training, having to do double fellowships)

The big problem is the no guaranteed starting salary number as discussed in all other threads here. Even for Peds (the lowest-paid specialty), residents know exactly how much they'll make and what they're getting themselves into. The competitiveness of MD/DO specialties are almost 100% financially driven

 

[air bud]

Do you happen to have a mustache?

Their screen name has a mustache. Name me a grad in the last 20 years who has done a reverdin.