Opinions Needed FAST: What to do!

[speedy_sam]

Hi all,

I need opinions, and fast! I'm in an APA counseling psyc program after completing a terminal masters and practicing for one year.

I want to get opinions on how likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours? It seems possible that I can complete my and propose my dissertation after only doing one year of practicum. This would likely mean I'd be at just around 400 hours. We all know the hours reported in the APPIC match statistics are inflated given and everyone thinks more hours is better.

How likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours?

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[erg923]

Hi all,

I need opinions, and fast! I'm in an APA counseling psyc program after completing a terminal masters and practicing for one year.

I want to get opinions on how likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours? It seems possible that I can complete my and propose my dissertation after only doing one year of practicum. This would likely mean I'd be at just around 400 hours. We all know the hours reported in the APPIC match statistics are inflated given and everyone thinks more hours is better.

How likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours?

I think the minimum is actually 500 for most sites.

More is not better, but there is point where its just not enough. Over a thousand for example is likely not to give much boost over 800, but there is no denying that someone with 800 quality hours is very likely going to be ready to adapt better than someone with 400.

 

[PsyDr]

Hi all,

I need opinions, and fast! I'm in an APA counseling psyc program after completing a terminal masters and practicing for one year.

I want to get opinions on how likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours? It seems possible that I can complete my and propose my dissertation after only doing one year of practicum. This would likely mean I'd be at just around 400 hours. We all know the hours reported in the APPIC match statistics are inflated given and everyone thinks more hours is better.

How likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours?

Not very likely. Look up the averages from the data and make your own decision about where you stand for places you want to apply.

I'm gonna save this for future debates

 

[MCParent]

with the typical minimum of 400 hours? ...one year of practicum.

It sounds as though you are also counting your doctoral hours and terminal masters level hours. Someone who applied this year could clarify, but I believe those are recorded differently in the APPI and many programs count only doctoral hours, not terminal masters hours.

 

[123EW]

Having just come off the internship interview cycle, I will say that my hours were probably less than others (under 600) but the quality and diversity of those hours are what stood out. It might be tough to accrue quality hours in one year, especially if it is only in one setting.

 

[WisNeuro]

At my current, and past sites, 400 hours would not have made the cutoff. 500 and 600 have been the bare minimum at my sites. Also, I don't know many who always think "more is better." We do indeed look at where those hours were accrued. I'll take 100 hours at one particular, highly regarded placement, over 400 at a place I know is junk. But yeah, 400 is very low.

 

[temppsych123]

Echo what others have said (source: just applied to internship and matched at a research-focused site without an hours minimum).

Also, do you mean 400 face-to-face hours or 400 hours total? It's the former that sites care about, not the latter.

 

[eremitestar]

Agreed with everything said above. While some sites may be okay with 400, that is well below the cut-off at many sites. I think most places I applied had a 600 hour minimum + 100 assessment hours. While you can count hours from your master's training, they do go in a different column and are looked at differently by different sites. You cannot count the hours from the year you spent practicing (though you can put that on your CV). I also went to a counseling psych program. Everyone in my program had a terminal masters. If our masters included clinical training (e.g., counseling, social work), we had to do two complete practica before we were allowed to apply for internship. The people with research-focused masters who didn't do master's-level field placements had to do three. And that was the minimum. Many people did more if they wanted more experience in a specialty area.

 

[smalltownpsych]

Hi all,

I need opinions, and fast! I'm in an APA counseling psyc program after completing a terminal masters and practicing for one year.

I want to get opinions on how likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours? It seems possible that I can complete my and propose my dissertation after only doing one year of practicum. This would likely mean I'd be at just around 400 hours. We all know the hours reported in the APPIC match statistics are inflated given and everyone thinks more hours is better.

How likely it is to match to APA internship site with the typical minimum of 400 hours?

Really? How do we know that? I told the truth on every aspect of my application so either you are saying that many applicants are fudging the hours or that APPIC is.
As far as whether or not you are ready to apply to the match I thought that was the school's decision? We had a number of criteria that we had to meet before we were supposed to apply. Certain amount of assessment experience, clinical competency exam, one year adult and one year child, and three years of practicum. Maybe it could have been shortened, but I would think the school would have had to sign off on it.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm more curious as to how people have so few hours. I did plenty of research and had no problem getting over 800 combined F2F hours during my grad school tenure. What are people doing with their time?

 

[temppsych123]

I'm more curious as to how people have so few hours. I did plenty of research and had no problem getting over 800 combined F2F hours during my grad school tenure. What are people doing with their time?

I'm reading your tone as a little snarky (maybe I'm wrong, though), but some of us have major life events happen that make managing clinical/teaching/research work difficult, and therefore cut down on clinical hours as a way to take care of ourselves (and do what's best for patients). I did a lot of research during grad school, and enough hours to match to an amazing site (~600 f2f), but I didn't complete as many as I would have liked due to general life factors.

RE: APPIC hours being inflated - I told the truth on my applications, and others I spoke with said they had as well. I think maybe this person meant that total hours have increased over application cycles, because people want to be "above average." E.g., last year's average was 500, now students start shooting for higher than that as a goal, next year's average is 525, on and on. I think this is borne out by the data:

2015: Doctoral Intervention Median = 602, Doctoral Assessment Median = 164
2012: Doctoral Intervention Median = 587, Doctoral Assessment Median = 151
2011: Doctoral Intervention Median = 573, Doctoral Assessment Median = 148
2010: Doctoral Intervention Median = 539, Doctoral Assessment Median = 152
2009: All (Doc + Masters) Intervention + Assmt Median = 800
2008: All (Doc + Masters) Intervention + Assmt Median = 787
2007: All (Doc + Masters) Intervention + Assmt Median = 766

Not a huge increase, but it does seem to happen.

 

[WisNeuro]

I'm usually snarky. I'm speaking to the sub 400 crowd for the combined hours. It's very, very low. If you're in that crowd and life circumstances get in the way, you're better off taking another year and getting adequate clinical work in.

 

[psychRA]

I'm speaking to the sub 400 crowd for the combined hours. It's very, very low. If you're in that crowd and life circumstances get in the way, you're better off taking another year and getting adequate clinical work in.

This fits with the mentality that I've observed from the last few years of participating in selection committees for internship and, to some extent, practicum programs. It's understandable that some applicants may not have been able to accrue a minimum number of hours due to life circumstances, AND there simply isn't a substitute for having a basic foundation of experience with clinical practice.

When applicants have a very low number of hours (I would agree that < 400 is low, but the bar varies by location), selection committees don't sit around speculating about that applicant's character or dedication, but they also can't take on an applicant who hasn't had sufficient clinical preparation. It's not fair to the site, and it's not fair to the applicant who would face a much steeper (and possibly insurmountable) learning curve. It's better to hold off on applying until you can get the necessary hours - which, again, will vary widely from site to site.

 

[smalltownpsych]

I'm reading your tone as a little snarky (maybe I'm wrong, though), but some of us have major life events happen that make managing clinical/teaching/research work difficult, and therefore cut down on clinical hours as a way to take care of ourselves (and do what's best for patients). I did a lot of research during grad school, and enough hours to match to an amazing site (~600 f2f), but I didn't complete as many as I would have liked due to general life factors.

When you are competing for a job, no one cares much about your complicating life factors. All they care about is what you have done and what you will bring to the table. In fact, whenever I would get a sense of this dynamic, we wouldn't hire the person. We all have complicating life factors. When I am hiring someone, they are not my patient and if they don't have sufficient boundaries to preclude me knowing their personal stuff, I don't want them representing me or my organization.

 

[cara susanna]

I had 500 f2f. I matched but I was definitely on the low side.

 

[Justanothergrad]

With one year of practicum experience you are going to lack hours, diversity, and a large amount of training areas that would benefit you as a developing provider. For instance, how many hours of training in assessment do you have and with what assessments? Many counseling psychology programs are weaker in this area already.

I'm usually snarky. I'm speaking to the sub 400 crowd for the combined hours. It's very, very low. If you're in that crowd and life circumstances get in the way, you're better off taking another year and getting adequate clinical work in.

From my experience, it depends on placements a lot of the time and if you came in with a masters. I came in with a terminal masters. This reduced one year of my program/practicum and does not grant me hours counted as doctoral f2f in APPIC. I also had a large rate of no-shows at a VA and a community clinic I worked at (I turned in into two publications using a community sample, but I wasnt getting more than 70 hours a semester). I also didn't have a clinic in my program. The result is a 'low' number of hours in my doctoral program (~450 doctoral combined) despite 20 hours a week at clinic sites and three years at doctoral practicums. This didn't reflect any of my 'clinical work' since I've been licensed and supervised by a psychologist (not a Texas one either) for 2+ hours/week for over three years, accruing about 3000 f2f hours in addition my masters hours where I accrued 300 or so f2f in two different settings. Those hours are not considered and get tossed from many places. I also had 300 hours of supervision which made for some very intensive training. People use those mean numbers and they get inflated by a lot (integrated reports anyone?). They also don't have clear outcome indicators; we just assume that 750 hours indicates a better clinical capacity, but I would put more emphasis on the quality of the hours (which can't be told by the quantity) and the supervision (also, no metric to measure it).

This is a difficult issue to resolve, but asking 'what did I do with my time' misses the mark on my efforts during my training. Going into internship I have around 15 publications out/in press/and in revised review, finalizing about 2 per year (which I hit last week for 2016). I have another handful in prep. I have several dozen presentations, mostly at national conferences. I have several small dollar grants as a PI or Co-PI. I also spend more time reading books/journals on treatment than most folks I know and spent a substantial portion of my 'down time' at site trying to position more f2f hours and varied experience.

When you are competing for a job, no one cares much about your complicating life factors. All they care about is what you have done and what you will bring to the table. In fact, whenever I would get a sense of this dynamic, we wouldn't hire the person. We all have complicating life factors. When I am hiring someone, they are not my patient and if they don't have sufficient boundaries to preclude me knowing their personal stuff, I don't want them representing me or my organization.

I generally agree with your point, although they exclude a lot of relevant material as well. See below as an example. The same masters program hours are counted differently depending on where you begin your doctoral training, according to the feedback I received from APPIC. On one hand the hours are counted; on the other they are not. Neither make you 'less' competitive for a job.

It sounds as though you are also counting your doctoral hours and terminal masters level hours. Someone who applied this year could clarify, but I believe those are recorded differently in the APPI and many programs count only doctoral hours, not terminal masters hours.

This is true if the masters is done in a different program. If you did a terminal masters and then matriculated into the doctoral program at the same school/in the same department then you count them all as doctoral hours.

 

[smalltownpsych]

With one year of practicum experience you are going to lack hours, diversity, and a large amount of training areas that would benefit you as a developing provider. For instance, how many hours of training in assessment do you have and with what assessments? Many counseling psychology programs are weaker in this area already.


From my experience, it depends on placements a lot of the time and if you came in with a masters. I came in with a terminal masters. This reduced one year of my program/practicum and does not grant me hours counted as doctoral f2f in APPIC. I also had a large rate of no-shows at a VA and a community clinic I worked at (I turned in into two publications using a community sample, but I wasnt getting more than 70 hours a semester). I also didn't have a clinic in my program. The result is a 'low' number of hours in my doctoral program (~450 doctoral combined) despite 20 hours a week at clinic sites and three years at doctoral practicums. This didn't reflect any of my 'clinical work' since I've been licensed and supervised by a psychologist (not a Texas one either) for 2+ hours/week for over three years, accruing about 3000 f2f hours in addition my masters hours where I accrued 300 or so f2f in two different settings. Those hours are not considered and get tossed from many places. I also had 300 hours of supervision which made for some very intensive training. People use those mean numbers and they get inflated by a lot (integrated reports anyone?). They also don't have clear outcome indicators; we just assume that 750 hours indicates a better clinical capacity, but I would put more emphasis on the quality of the hours (which can't be told by the quantity) and the supervision (also, no metric to measure it).

This is a difficult issue to resolve, but asking 'what did I do with my time' misses the mark on my efforts during my training. Going into internship I have around 15 publications out/in press/and in revised review, finalizing about 2 per year (which I hit last week for 2016). I have another handful in prep. I have several dozen presentations, mostly at national conferences. I have several small dollar grants as a PI or Co-PI. I also spend more time reading books/journals on treatment than most folks I know and spent a substantial portion of my 'down time' at site trying to position more f2f hours and varied experience.


I generally agree with your point, although they exclude a lot of relevant material as well. See below as an example. The same masters program hours are counted differently depending on where you begin your doctoral training, according to the feedback I received from APPIC. On one hand the hours are counted; on the other they are not. Neither make you 'less' competitive for a job.


This is true if the masters is done in a different program. If you did a terminal masters and then matriculated into the doctoral program at the same school/in the same department then you count them all as doctoral hours.

Think you missed my point, I was commenting on the whole personal life circumstances and how one communicates that could be an even bigger problem.

 

[MCParent]

This is true if the masters is done in a different program. If you did a terminal masters and then matriculated into the doctoral program at the same school/in the same department then you count them all as doctoral hours.

Thanks!

However that applies to OP it important. If OP can only count on semester of hours, then there's not a chance.

 

[Justanothergrad]

Think you missed my poin, I was commenting on the whole personal life circumstances and how one communicates that could be an even bigger problem.

I got it and agree for most issues (no one cares if you didn't get hours bc your dog was sick, you wanted to graduate earlier, etc). Howevsr, Sometimes those 'training factors' are not always considered though- no matter how you communicate training circumstances (which I read as part of life circumstances that may account for lower numbers). It's about training but not all training is created equal or measured equal when it is created equal

 

[WisNeuro]

I got it and agree for most issues (no one cares if you didn't get hours bc your dog was sick, you wanted to graduate earlier, etc). Howevsr, Sometimes those 'training factors' are not always considered though- no matter how you communicate training circumstances (which I read as part of life circumstances that may account for lower numbers). It's about training but not all training is created equal or measured equal when it is created equal

How this is applied varies quite a bit by site. In the past, at least with the neuro people, when someone has been on the lower side of the hours mark, we usually ask why and look into the application. Maybe they had a ton of publications, had a terminal masters and only ~3 years in a doctoral program, etc. These are considered. Far too often, the low hours are combined with no pubs, only local posters, and other generally less than impressive stats. Low hours in and of itself is not a deal breaker, granted they reach the minimum, but there better be a coherent reason why those hours are lower than the average of the applicant pool.