Optometrist calling themselves as Doctors...Is that proper?

[scpod]

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....Another thing I have been hearing people say is that Physician Assistants can not have their own practice: Yes they can... all they have to do is hiring a medical director MD or DO who is willing to take a piece of the pie....

That is by no means universal. It only occurs in certain states where the laws are more favorable. In many states PAs are still highly restricted in what they can do alone.

 

[tasil71]

im almost ashamed that you even wrote that post/question. i work at an eye doctor's office. (OPTOMETRIST) she went to school for 4 yrs, did a residency, and can treat MANY diseases of the eye. people often come to her as opposed to going to the emergency room to be treated by an opthalmologist. it's funny to me how people never seem to hesitate calling a phD a doctor (no offense to you phDs out there i hold you all in high regard), but think it's absurd to call an OD a doctor. the only significant difference b/w the two is that md eye doctors can perform surgery, and cant by any means do a contact lens exam. so if you would rather go to a "non-doctor" to get your eyes fitted for contact lenses that sit on your cornea, a pretty significant part of your body, then i would suggest not going to an optometrist, bc he or she is definitely a doctor. they can prescribe vigamox, can treat glaucoma, macular degeneration, and do a lot of what ophtalmologists do for a prettier penny.

that is all ! 😀

 

[JaggerPlate]

im almost ashamed that you even wrote that post/question. i work at an eye doctor's office. (OPTOMETRIST) she went to school for 4 yrs, did a residency, and can treat MANY diseases of the eye. people often come to her as opposed to going to the emergency room to be treated by an opthalmologist. it's funny to me how people never seem to hesitate calling a phD a doctor (no offense to you phDs out there i hold you all in high regard), but think it's absurd to call an OD a doctor. the only significant difference b/w the two is that md eye doctors can perform surgery, and cant by any means do a contact lens exam. so if you would rather go to a "non-doctor" to get your eyes fitted for contact lenses that sit on your cornea, a pretty significant part of your body, then i would suggest not going to an optometrist, bc he or she is definitely a doctor. they can prescribe vigamox, can treat glaucoma, macular degeneration, and do a lot of what ophtalmologists do for a prettier penny.

that is all ! 😀

An ophthalmologist can't fit someone for contacts???

Anyway, you, like countless other people, completely missed the point of the thread. ODs are doctors, no doubt, no argument. The thread was about non-physicians calling themselves 'Dr' in an environment where physician was the norm for 'Doctor.'

 

[elftown]

 

[jvelos3]

An ophthalmologist can't fit someone for contacts???

An ophthalmologist can but any other physician cannot. Only eye care professionals can prescribe and fit contact lenses/glasses.

Anyway back to the topic. This discussion is ludicrous. "The thread was about non-physicians calling themselves 'Dr' in an environment where physician was the norm for 'Doctor'." Seriously?? Maybe DO's should stop calling themselves "medical doctors" or "physicians" since that is usually interpreted as MD and may mislead the public. I mean we are talking about public perception and the "norm"...correct?

Oh and what type of "environment" do you speak of? Do you mean that Optometrists shouldn't be called "doctor" in a hospital setting? How is this "dangerous"? This is like saying a cardiologist shouldn't be called "doctor" within 10 feet of an OR because they could be mistakened as the "surgeon" and the patient will die...

 

[elektroshok]

An ophthalmologist can but any other physician cannot. Only eye care professionals can prescribe and fit contact lenses/glasses.

Anyway back to the topic. This discussion is ludicrous. "The thread was about non-physicians calling themselves 'Dr' in an environment where physician was the norm for 'Doctor'." Seriously?? Maybe DO's should stop calling themselves "medical doctors" or "physicians" since that is usually interpreted as MD and may mislead the public. I mean we are talking about public perception and the "norm"...correct?

Oh and what type of "environment" do you speak of? Do you mean that Optometrists shouldn't be called "doctor" in a hospital setting? How is this "dangerous"? This is like saying a cardiologist shouldn't be called "doctor" within 10 feet of an OR because they could be mistakened as the "surgeon" and the patient will die...

Wrong again..

I get my dad and other FP doc friends to rx me contacts all the time...

 

[jvelos3]

Wrong again..

I get my dad and other FP doc friends to rx me contacts all the time...

9. Can a physician practice a specialty in which s/he isn't board certified?

Yes. In Oregon, a physician may practice any specialty without being certified by any specialty board. However, Oregon law does require that the physician meet the "standard of care" in any field he or she chooses to practice. This means that the care rendered must be that which is reasonably expected of an appropriately trained physician in the setting involved. Board certification neither guarantees that that standard is met, nor does lack of board certification mean that the standard would not be met. It merely indicates that at one point in time, a physician undertook and successfully completed a formal course of training (the residency" described above) and passed an examination administered by the board of that specialty. Most specialty boards now require some sort of recertification examination of their certificate holders, but this is at the discretion of that particular board.

The above is based on Oregon state law but It's probabaly similar in any other state. It clearly states that physician scope of practice is limited by training. If you haven't been trained in a prescribing and fitting corrective lenses then you cannot do that. Looks like whoever is dispensing your contacts just assumes that your dad and his friends are ophthalmologists and not FP.

 

[JaggerPlate]

An ophthalmologist can but any other physician cannot. Only eye care professionals can prescribe and fit contact lenses/glasses.

Anyway back to the topic. This discussion is ludicrous. "The thread was about non-physicians calling themselves 'Dr' in an environment where physician was the norm for 'Doctor'." Seriously?? Maybe DO's should stop calling themselves "medical doctors" or "physicians" since that is usually interpreted as MD and may mislead the public. I mean we are talking about public perception and the "norm"...correct?

Oh and what type of "environment" do you speak of? Do you mean that Optometrists shouldn't be called "doctor" in a hospital setting? How is this "dangerous"? This is like saying a cardiologist shouldn't be called "doctor" within 10 feet of an OR because they could be mistakened as the "surgeon" and the patient will die...

Horribly insecure. I don't even need to debate your points. You will be a Doctor of Optometry, no one can take that away from you, you can use the Doc title to get laid, etc.

 

[JaggerPlate]

9. Can a physician practice a specialty in which s/he isn't board certified?

Yes. In Oregon, a physician may practice any specialty without being certified by any specialty board. However, Oregon law does require that the physician meet the "standard of care" in any field he or she chooses to practice. This means that the care rendered must be that which is reasonably expected of an appropriately trained physician in the setting involved. Board certification neither guarantees that that standard is met, nor does lack of board certification mean that the standard would not be met. It merely indicates that at one point in time, a physician undertook and successfully completed a formal course of training (the residency" described above) and passed an examination administered by the board of that specialty. Most specialty boards now require some sort of recertification examination of their certificate holders, but this is at the discretion of that particular board.

The above is based on Oregon state law but It's probabaly similar in any other state. It clearly states that physician scope of practice is limited by training. If you haven't been trained in a prescribing and fitting corrective lenses then you cannot do that. Looks like whoever is dispensing your contacts just assumes that your dad and his friends are ophthalmologists and not FP.

People overstep bounds all the time in medicine. FPs also do OB, cosmetic stuff, derm, etc. It's a part of life. In your case, just assume that the majority of patients will be informed and go see an OD for contacts. I know I go see an OD to get my eyes checked out, and I call him Dr when I'm there 😱! You need to not seem so freaking insecure on here though, it's not helping your case. It seems like an eye exam or fitting people for contacts may not be 'brain surgery,' but it's also not the only thing an OD can do so don't get in a huff and start quoting stuff because a FP doc with years and years of medical training can fit someone for a gd contact lens.

 

[elektroshok]

9. Can a physician practice a specialty in which s/he isn't board certified?

Yes. In Oregon, a physician may practice any specialty without being certified by any specialty board. However, Oregon law does require that the physician meet the "standard of care" in any field he or she chooses to practice. This means that the care rendered must be that which is reasonably expected of an appropriately trained physician in the setting involved. Board certification neither guarantees that that standard is met, nor does lack of board certification mean that the standard would not be met. It merely indicates that at one point in time, a physician undertook and successfully completed a formal course of training (the residency" described above) and passed an examination administered by the board of that specialty. Most specialty boards now require some sort of recertification examination of their certificate holders, but this is at the discretion of that particular board.

The above is based on Oregon state law but It's probabaly similar in any other state. It clearly states that physician scope of practice is limited by training. If you haven't been trained in a prescribing and fitting corrective lenses then you cannot do that. Looks like whoever is dispensing your contacts just assumes that your dad and his friends are ophthalmologists and not FP.

Lol this is getting pointless.

I go to the eye doc when I need a checkup, when I need refills on contacts I get someone I know to write them for me to hold me over. This doesn't overextend an FPs scope of practice by any means..

 

[jvelos3]

Horribly insecure. I don't even need to debate your points. You will be a Doctor of Optometry, no one can take that away from you, you can use the Doc title to get laid, etc.

Yet you are the one discussing the "dangers" of calling an optometrist a "Dr." outside of their office.

 

[jvelos3]

Lol this is getting pointless.

I go to the eye doc when I need a checkup, when I need refills on contacts I get someone I know to write them for me to hold me over. This doesn't overextend an FPs scope of practice by any means..

I don't see a problem in how you explained it above. It might not be the "right" way to do things but it is logical. What your father is doing, however, is just copying a script. He is not actually prescribing and fitting your contact lenses....as in he did not actually refract your eyes, determine your prescription, and fit you with the proper contacts.

 

[jvelos3]

People overstep bounds all the time in medicine. FPs also do OB, cosmetic stuff, derm, etc. It's a part of life. In your case, just assume that the majority of patients will be informed and go see an OD for contacts. I know I go see an OD to get my eyes checked out, and I call him Dr when I'm there 😱! You need to not seem so freaking insecure on here though, it's not helping your case. It seems like an eye exam or fitting people for contacts may not be 'brain surgery,' but it's also not the only thing an OD can do so don't get in a huff and start quoting stuff because a FP doc with years and years of medical training can fit someone for a gd contact lens.

Have you looked in the mirror or your posts lately? You are like the Rush Limbaugh of SDN. The only people that take you seriously is your "base" aka the DO forum.

 

[elektroshok]

I don't see a problem in how you explained it above. It might not be the "right" way to do things but it is logical. What your father is doing, however, is just copying a script. He is not actually prescribing and fitting your contact lenses....as in he did not actually refract your eyes, determine your prescription, and fit you with the proper contacts.

You said only eye docs can rx (and fit) lenses. He is rxing it.

Its not the same as just copying a script. He wouldn't 'copy' the script that my sports med doc wrote me for percs...

 

[jvelos3]

You said only eye docs can rx (and fit) lenses. He is rxing it.

Its not the same as just copying a script. He wouldn't 'copy' the script that my sports med doc wrote me for percs...

Uhhh...I believe that is the definition of copying a script. He did not do the work up. He did not "fit" your contacts. He did not do the refraction. All of these are necessary if you are to prescribe something...except of course if he copied it. I am not saying that refracting and fitting contacts are terribly difficult...but the fact is that your father did not actually do that. So all he did was copy. Just because your father got away with it doesnt make it right or legal but like I said earlier...it is logical since your prescription will not change much in a year and you end up saving $100 or so.

 

[123165]

Have you looked in the mirror or your posts lately? You are like the Rush Limbaugh of SDN. The only people that take you seriously is your "base" aka the DO forum.

What I find so humorous about Rush, is that, in my opinion, many people agree with him, and few admit it.

Edit*

I agree that using the title Dr. in a clinical setting can be dangerous. That said, I plan on referring to all my patients who have a doctoral degree as Dr. Such-and-such. I think what Jagger, and others, are getting at is using the title Dr. in a setting where your qualifications can be dangerously misunderstood is a problem.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I agree that using the title Dr. in a clinical setting can be dangerous. That said, I plan on referring to all my patients who have a doctoral degree as Dr. Such-and-such. I think what Jagger, and others, are getting at is using the title Dr. in a setting where your qualifications can be dangerously misunderstood is a problem.

Ahh, clarity, logic, and sensibility ... it fills my soul with warmth. Thank you Kev.

 

[Longshanks]

Is an optometrist's office not a clinical setting? I don't understand the logic of the argument in this thread that 'they're doctors, but they can't be called that in a clinical setting'. They're still health care professionals and just as much should be called doctor as any other physician or podiatrist. They are simply eye specialists. Is it confusing when in a room full of people and three are called "doctors" however one is an ED doc, GI, or endo? No, they all practice different fields and they're all doctors. And regarding the "is there a doctor in the house?" scenario, would you want a practicing pathologist of 30 years to answer that call? Think they still remember anything from their family practice or internal med clerkships?

If you're a health care professional with a doctorate in your field, they earned the title "doctor". It may simply be a different specialization however. Nevertheless, I will concede that DNPs calling themselves doctors is just vacuous.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Have you looked in the mirror or your posts lately? You are like the Rush Limbaugh of SDN. The only people that take you seriously is your "base" aka the DO forum.

Hahaha, I have a base??? Sweet. Can I call myself Cobra Commander? Or should I be Hawk and stick with the good guys?? Decisions, decisions. Seriously though, say whatever you want about me, but your posts in this thread sound really insecure. When I come in the OD forums screaming that only DOs can do some asinine ... then you can call me out.

 

[RG73]

You are like the Rush Limbaugh of SDN. The only people that take you seriously is your "base" aka the DO forum.

That is a huge compliment for JP. I mean I listened to Rush today. And the day before. And the day before that. Rush in the car, and then I come to SDN for the Jagger Plate.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch though. I thought the general consensus here was people get to use their appropriate titles and that there's no danger of anyone being mistaken for the wrong sort of doctor in a clinical setting. The end.

 

[JaggerPlate]

That is a huge compliment for JP. I mean I listened to Rush today. And the day before. And the day before that. Rush in the car, and then I come to SDN for the Jagger Plate.

I now have a base and a talk show ... this is an awesome day (and 'The Jagger Plate' is an awesome name. We'll work out royalties later)

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch though. I thought the general consensus here was people get to use their appropriate titles and that there's no danger of anyone being mistaken for the wrong sort of doctor in a clinical setting. The end.

Yup.

 

[SolanoDoc]

Every healthcare workers with a post grad degree calling themselves doctors nowadays...Last week, I had a patient who told me the eye doctor was in to see him... I thought he was referring to an ophtalmologist (MD/DO) and It's when I check the chart to see if any orders was written that I see that she was an optometrist. My question is that if both patients and other healthcare workers can not distinguish who is a medical doctor anymore ... Isn't that putting the patients' care in jeopardy. Let say if I did not look at her notes and her signature, I would have assume that she was an ophtalmologist. For instance if another physician has ordered a referral for a an ophtalmologist, I would have said to that physician that the patient has been seen by one already... I think the term DOCTOR is being obsolete now that patients' well-being are being jeopardized...

A lot of people other than MDs and DOs can call themselves Dr., people with Phds, Dentists, Podiatrists, and Optometrists can put Dr. before their name. Those other doctors though are not known as doctors in the sense of being a physician.

 

[123165]

A lot of people other than MDs and DOs can call themselves Dr., people with Phds, Dentists, Podiatrists, and Optometrists can put Dr. before their name. Those other doctors though are not known as doctors in the sense of being a physician.

That is what the whole thread has been about. 😕

 

[jvelos3]

It's dangerous for non MD/DO to call themselves doctor in a healthcare setting. Period. If an optometrist wants to introduce themselves as Dr at a cocktail party, or in their own private practice, no problem. They have a doctorate ... no biggie. But it's not cool to stand up while someone is choking at a restaurant and scream 'MOVE I'M A DOCTOR' or call themselves doctor in a hospital. Obvious exaggerations and dumb examples, but you get my point. America has a problem with people wanting the prize without putting in the work.

Here Jagger says its dangerous.

I think what Jagger, and others, are getting at is using the title Dr. in a setting where your qualifications can be dangerously misunderstood is a problem.

Another post by Kevon saying its dangerous.

I'm not sure why your panties are in a bunch though. I thought the general consensus here was people get to use their appropriate titles and that there's no danger of anyone being mistaken for the wrong sort of doctor in a clinical setting. The end.

Obviously you didn't read the thread. And Jagger didn't read your post since he agreed with you that it is not dangerous when in every other post he said it is.

 

[jvelos3]

Is an optometrist's office not a clinical setting? I don't understand the logic of the argument in this thread that 'they're doctors, but they can't be called that in a clinical setting'. They're still health care professionals and just as much should be called doctor as any other physician or podiatrist. They are simply eye specialists. Is it confusing when in a room full of people and three are called "doctors" however one is an ED doc, GI, or endo? No, they all practice different fields and they're all doctors. And regarding the "is there a doctor in the house?" scenario, would you want a practicing pathologist of 30 years to answer that call? Think they still remember anything from their family practice or internal med clerkships?

If you're a health care professional with a doctorate in your field, they earned the title "doctor". It may simply be a different specialization however. Nevertheless, I will concede that DNPs calling themselves doctors is just vacuous.

QFT👍

 

[JaggerPlate]

Obviously you didn't read the thread. And Jagger didn't read your post since he agreed with you that it is not dangerous when in every other post he said it is.

Whoops. I thought the person was saying it was not dangerous as long as people use their title in appropriate situations, which I agree with, and is the point of the thread. I misread it or mistook it or something.

 

[jvelos3]

Whoops. I thought the person was saying it was not dangerous as long as people use their title in appropriate situations, which I agree with, and is the point of the thread. I misread it or mistook it or something.

I think I understand where you are coming from. You are saying that if OD's and other non physicians are called "Dr." in a hospital then it can mislead the patient/staff and might be dangerous. Is my assumption of your point of view correct?

Now my argument is that these types of situations are so unlikely and so easy to alleviate that it is unnecessary to go as far as to only allow physicians to be called "Dr." I can't even think of a situation that this could come up. In the OP's situation...all he had to do was actually read the chart and see the initials "OD". In your very sarcastic situation of the choking person...heimleck/CPR. That is what is initially needed and I am pretty sure all healthcare professionals need to be CPR certified. After administering the heimleck or if neccesary CPR...then intubate. And even if you are a physician, without the neccesary tools you cannot intubate in a restaurant.

Oh and I just wanted to mention that the AMA did release an "official" position on the matter. See below...

"Whereas, Certain specialty societies recognize that many allied health care professions have improved their educational standards and incorporated doctorate designations in their training programs; and

Whereas, Many nursing schools have re-titled their training program as a Residency and their students as Residents, despite the traditional attribution of these titles to medical doctors and their training programs; and

Whereas, The growing trend of this title encroachment is of concern because patients will be confused when the titles of Doctor, Resident and Residency are applied to non-physicians who hold non-medical doctorates or to non-physicians in training; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association adopt that the title “Doctor,” in a medical setting, apply only to physicians licensed to practice medicine in all its branches, dentists and podiatrists (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Resident” apply only to individuals enrolled in physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Residency” apply only to physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA serve to protect, through legislation, the titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency.” (Directive to Take Action)"

It is unfortunate that the AMA has chosen to take this stance. I could care less if OD's are called "Doctors" or not but the norm has always been to call the optometrist a Dr. I think it is an insult to suddenly start telling OD's...oh in this situation you can't be called doctor. And I see no danger in calling OD's "Dr." in clinical situations.

If you think it's dangerous then give a realistic scenario that proves your point and I will concede.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I think I understand where you are coming from. You are saying that if OD's and other non physicians are called "Dr." in a hospital then it can mislead the patient/staff and might be dangerous. Is my assumption of your point of view correct?

Now my argument is that these types of situations are so unlikely and so easy to alleviate that it is unnecessary to go as far as to only allow physicians to be called "Dr." I can't even think of a situation that this could come up. In the OP's situation...all he had to do was actually read the chart and see the initials "OD". In your very sarcastic situation of the choking person...heimleck/CPR. That is what is initially needed and I am pretty sure all healthcare professionals need to be CPR certified. After administering the heimleck or if neccesary CPR...then intubate. And even if you are a physician, without the neccesary tools you cannot intubate in a restaurant.

Oh and I just wanted to mention that the AMA did release an "official" position on the matter. See below...

"Whereas, Certain specialty societies recognize that many allied health care professions have improved their educational standards and incorporated doctorate designations in their training programs; and

Whereas, Many nursing schools have re-titled their training program as a Residency and their students as Residents, despite the traditional attribution of these titles to medical doctors and their training programs; and

Whereas, The growing trend of this title encroachment is of concern because patients will be confused when the titles of Doctor, Resident and Residency are applied to non-physicians who hold non-medical doctorates or to non-physicians in training; therefore be it

RESOLVED, That our American Medical Association adopt that the title “Doctor,” in a medical setting, apply only to physicians licensed to practice medicine in all its branches, dentists and podiatrists (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Resident” apply only to individuals enrolled in physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA adopt policy that the title “Residency” apply only to physician, dentist or podiatrist training programs (New HOD Policy); and be it further

RESOLVED, That our AMA serve to protect, through legislation, the titles “Doctor,” “Resident” and “Residency.” (Directive to Take Action)"

It is unfortunate that the AMA has chosen to take this stance. I could care less if OD's are called "Doctors" or not but the norm has always been to call the optometrist a Dr. I think it is an insult to suddenly start telling OD's...oh in this situation you can't be called doctor. And I see no danger in calling OD's "Dr." in clinical situations.

If you think it's dangerous then give a realistic scenario that proves your point and I will concede.

Yeah, your first comment hits on my point. The AMA stance is pretty cut and dry, they are just trying to protect their turf, but it just goes to show that this issue isn't irrelevant or absurd or whatever as others were mentioning.

 

[Aznfarmerboi]

People are missing the point. There is no problem respecting the guy for being an OD. No problem calling him Dr Eye Guy in his practice. No problem with him introducing himself as Dr, etc. The point that I believe the OP was trying to make was that it is dangerous when people who are not physicians (DO/MD) calling themselves Dr in a setting where physicians work. It can be dangerous. I'm going to give an example that I think reinforces the OPs point, and leads me to my point of view. I know an OD who is a huge douche. Has nothing to do with his degree, has to do with him as a person. He has a son who is essentially bi-polar and is on a whole slew of medications because of this and WAS doing quite well. One day the OD decided, for whatever reason, that he didn't want his kid on this meds. So he went to his son's school psychologist telling him that he was a DOCTOR and because of this knew that these medications were bad or whatever and demanded he be taking of them. The psychologist relayed this information to the doctor the kid had been referred to after meeting with the psychologist, he disagreed of course, but because it was the parent's wishes and the guy said he was a doctor ... bam, done. Long story short, the kid is in a military school now and has done some things in the last year like steal a car and become physically violent with members of his family. Now, was this appropriate??? Take it as you will. The guy may have done the same thing just as a parent, not claiming he was a physician, but it's my personal example/two cents/a situation which I find absurd.

.... 1. Only pre meds have time to debate silly things on this.

2. ODs are trained in the medical model. Thus as a health profesional AND a father, he can look up journals and practice evidence based medicine to make an informed decision (no matter the experience). Him being an OD certainly gives him the credential to make more informed decisions than a layman would off webmd.

3. As a pre med, what do you know about bi-polar medications? Anti psychotics/depressants are a class of drug that is commonly over prescribed and rarely used in the right way.

 

[JaggerPlate]

....
3. As a pre med, what do you know about bi-polar medications? Anti psychotics/depressants are a class of drug that is commonly over prescribed and rarely used in the right way.

Thanks for getting the point 🙄

I also know that when the kid was on meds he was doing well in school, was happy, and living a productive life. When he was off them he struck his mother, stole a car, and ended up in military school. What was the variable that changed in this equation???

Please quit making this thread about personal vendettas. It's annoying. This thread isn't about 'pre-meds not knowing things,' it's not about the perils of over prescribing depression/bi-polar medication, it's about the topic at hand, and the number of people coming out of the wood works lets me know that it does hit a nerve. SO I guess pre-meds aren't the only one worried about it???

 

[Linka]

Okay, don't mean to add fuel to the fire, but I'm just going to post an example that happened in real life. Take it for what it's worth:

I used to work as a pharmacy clerk in a retail setting. One time a customer came in to get her regular prescriptions, one of which was Protonix (or Prilosec, one of the stomach meds). The customer then told the pharmacist that she didn't take that one anymore. The conversation paraphrased as follows:

Pharmacist: Your doctor took you off it?
Customer: No, I went in to see my eye doctor [OD] and complained about my dry eyes and we decided it was because of my Protonix so I'm not taking it anymore.
Pharmacist: *blinks*...What? Don't you think you should talk to your doctor about it?
Customer: No.

Customer leaves and the pharmacist turns to me, appalled.

Now, whether the problem is the label of "doctor"... I don't know (I don't even know if his office is in the mall or what). I call my OD "doctor" as well and wouldn't dream of asking him for advice on my ulcer medication (not that I take any). The point I'm making is that health professionals over-stepping their bounds, and people taking their word as solid gold, happens a lot more often than some seem to think.

On a positive note, the pharmacist did the right thing here and referred the customer to her PCP to get more informed advice.

 

[123165]

It is unfortunate that the AMA has chosen to take this stance. I could care less if OD's are called "Doctors" or not but the norm has always been to call the optometrist a Dr. I think it is an insult to suddenly start telling OD's...oh in this situation you can't be called doctor. And I see no danger in calling OD's "Dr." in clinical situations.

If you think it's dangerous then give a realistic scenario that proves your point and I will concede.

I think more often than being explicitly dangerous, it can be confusing to a patient. If a DNP is wearing a white coat in a hospital, and everyone is calling her/him Dr. Such-and-such, the patient could begin to believe that he/she is their physician. I think the DNP example is a little more relevant, because there are not many situations where an OD would be in a clinical scenario where he/she could be confused with a physician. I think anything that could, by nature, confuse a patient could be considered dangerous.

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should not be called Dr. on the street or in their practice, or anything like that. If they are, then I am not on board. My concern is in a hospital setting, and I can see very few situations that would even be applicable.

 

[JaggerPlate]

I don't think anyone is suggesting that they should not be called Dr. on the street or in their practice, or anything like that. If they are, then I am not on board. My concern is in a hospital setting, and I can see very few situations that would even be applicable.

Yeah, this is my point on the thread summed up very nicely. I was never trying to make inane statements like ODs weren't doctors or something, I was just trying to comment on the issue of using the title in correct clinical settings (IE: what you just said).

 

[DrMcKittrick]

If that's the case then the title of this thread should be changed or just downright locked as it is misleading and can be taken the wrong way by anyone who practices in another healthcare profession, outside MD/DO. The times have changed and there are many healthcare providers out there, each having something to contribute to society in a positive way.

What I find surprising is a premed dictating who should be called 'doctor' in any setting whatsoever. Whether it be MD, DO, DC, OD, DPT, ND, etc. these folks have earned the respect through their education, completing extensive post undergraduate studies (4-5 years in length sometimes), national and state board exams, and continuing education. They also have to maintain status in their community just as well if not more so because they don't have the privileges of working in the hospital. They have their own businesses. Trust me, wearing 2 hats all the time is a challenge.

I encourage you to go through all that and when you do, then we can have this discussion.

Maybe it's me but I've NEVER seen an optometrist walk in to a hospital calling himself doctor to anybody and wanting to take over patient treatment. Every 'Doctor' should know and respect where their place in the system is. They are all needed.

 

[bcgans]

I'm naming my first born "Doctor." I can only imagine introducing him at parties when hes about 10-12 years old..

Stranger: "Bcgans! Who is this little guy??"
Me: "Oh, my youngest, Doctor Bcgans"
Stranger: "Holy S%$*! Med schools take 'em young now a days, huh?"
Me: New Caribbean school. St. Payus Ridiculus or something...


Sorry. Couldn't resist. 😛

 

[ArsenalEPL4Life]

I agree with DrMcKittrick, and I couldnt have said it any better myself. Every Doctor, whether MD/DO, DC, OD, or DPM should know and respect their boundaries in the healthcare field. They have all earned the right of being called a "Doctor", through education and board exams. However, I only thought physician referred to MD/DO. I may be confused on that? Anyway, an optometrist shouldnt try to diagnose irritable bowel syndrome just as a nephrologist shouldnt try to fit someone for glasses. They each went through extensive training in their specific field, and should just focus on that.

 

[DrMcKittrick]

I'd also like to add that the word 'physician' differs from state to state. For example, as a chiropractor in NV the state board recognizes you as a 'chiropractic physician'. However, as a chiropractor in CA, you can only use the term 'chiropractor'.

There are many states with underserved rural areas and there may only be a chiropractor or naturopathic doctor working there. This is why they receive extensive education in physical diagnosis, emt, etc., same as the MD's. I believe this is why DO schools have now started to emphasize creating primary care physicians in rural areas. Many schools use that in their mission statement.

Whomever the people see in these areas, they are their doctor or physician regardless.

 

[TANSTAAFL]

Here's a funny take on it.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MDEnvy

 

[Fiddlesticks]

I think the situation determines whether or not it is alright. In most cases anyone with a doctorate should be able to call themselves Doctor. They have earned the title after all. The problem with this arises when Dr. X is misleading a patient or co-worker (as seen in the example given by demayette, in which a PA-C is being precarious with his credentials on his labcoat.) So should the general public be educated more of the distinctions? Or should those individuals with doctorates be taking more time explaining their credentials to their patients? Personally, I don't have a problem with calling everyone with a doctorate a doctor. BUT, I do have a problem with a doctor of (insert doctorate here) pretending to be a doctor of (insert a different doctorate here). I can see how that could be dangerous in a clinical setting.

 

[MedicDO]

I've noticed a few salient issues that I don't believe have been pulled out or perhaps they were and in the length of the thread I didn't see them or do not now remember them.

The issue of a patient getting confused because the nurses are calling the janitor with a PhD Dr. is really of little significance as the Janitor hopefully will not be attempting to treat the patient. In one of the original arguments about possibly having an OD sign a chart, well if the OD is signing a chart then they are there in a care related setting, let them be called Doctor they earned and are doing their job. This title mess can get very ugly very quickly. A doctorate simply represents a terminal degree in a certain profession hopefully indicating mastery of that profession, they have earned the right to be called Doctor. I doubt my professor with a PhD in history of the loin cloth is going to be in the hospital trying to treat jock itch, so really it doesn't matter. For health care professionals that are in the hospital whatever their profession if they have an earned doctorate in whatever field and they introduce themselves as Dr. So-and-So then fine they are doctors (not physicians but doctors). Now almost anytime I see a caregiver walk into a room they introduce themselves. Hi, I'm Dr. BillyBob one of the ED Physicians here. If another health professional (non-physician with a doctorate) goes into a room I don't think it is too much to ask that they introduce themselves, Hi I'm Dr. Julia one of the advanced practice nurses here in the hospital.

This is the polite thing to do but if a DNP goes into a room and introduces themselves just as Dr. So-and-So and examines the patient, lays out a course of treatment within their guidelines then so be it. Was the patient really harmed? Most likely not, confused maybe...truth be told probably didn't realize a damn thing and probably doesn't care as long as they are being treated. "Hello, Sir before we begin treating your MI, I'm Dr. So-and-so an advanced practice nurse and I'm going to briefly sum up the history of healthcare and the various titles that you may find so that you understand that while I am a Doctor I'm not a Doctor in the way you may be thinking...." Before she even gets to start really explaining the patient says: "that's great can you give me something for the pain?"

I think what it really comes down to and I'm not trying to step on any toes is the patient doesnt give a $#it what the titles of their caregivers are as long as they're being treated. It's us that care about titles. Yes I've been there too and said many a time in my start in EMS "I'm not an ambulance driver, I'm a PARAMEDIC," then after a few years "yes ma'am I'm an ambulance driver: you call, we haul, that's all." Once I get through medical school yes I'll probably strut around for a while with my bright white coat "Hi, I'm Doctor Dave." Then hopefully it'll wear off and I'll get down to the real business at hand which is working with colleagues (of all the healthcare disciplines) to help patients. Hell when I started teaching full-time and had the "Lead EMS Instructor" title I though it was great fun to respond to the inevitable "what do you do here" with "I'm the night-time janitor." I kid you not there were people sitting there when I left going what happened to the Janitor that had that really nice office. Think a little more Patch Adams and a little less Dr. House.

On the topic of I'm a Doctor take my son of those meds, it is unfortunate that there will always be people out there that abuse their titles and try to imply things their not. "I'm a Doctor, I Drive a Ferrari" (like a Doc straight out of FP residency can afford a full-size pickup truck let alone a ferrari--or a resident who does have a Doctorate of Medicine or Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine trying to get laid forgets to mention the whopping 50K a year and 80 hrs a week while in said residency). Hell there's people on the street who dropped out in 8th grade that will tell you they're a doctor. Human nature.

Truly not trying to argue or be offensive but a title is a title, do the job to the best of your ability and don't sweat the small stuff.

 

[MedicDO]

Now, that I got all long-winded (sorry :-/ ) on the real question I was wanting to ask: About the post 200 posts ago in the thread. Some people don't consider a J.D. to be a terminal degree? I find that interesting and am wondering what exactly would be the terminal degree for an attorney/lawyer?

 

[123165]

I've noticed a few salient issues that I don't believe have been pulled out or perhaps they were and in the length of the thread I didn't see them or do not now remember them.

The issue of a patient getting confused because the nurses are calling the janitor with a PhD Dr. is really of little significance as the Janitor hopefully will not be attempting to treat the patient. In one of the original arguments about possibly having an OD sign a chart, well if the OD is signing a chart then they are there in a care related setting, let them be called Doctor they earned and are doing their job. This title mess can get very ugly very quickly. A doctorate simply represents a terminal degree in a certain profession hopefully indicating mastery of that profession, they have earned the right to be called Doctor. I doubt my professor with a PhD in history of the loin cloth is going to be in the hospital trying to treat jock itch, so really it doesn't matter. For health care professionals that are in the hospital whatever their profession if they have an earned doctorate in whatever field and they introduce themselves as Dr. So-and-So then fine they are doctors (not physicians but doctors). Now almost anytime I see a caregiver walk into a room they introduce themselves. Hi, I'm Dr. BillyBob one of the ED Physicians here. If another health professional (non-physician with a doctorate) goes into a room I don't think it is too much to ask that they introduce themselves, Hi I'm Dr. Julia one of the advanced practice nurses here in the hospital.

This is the polite thing to do but if a DNP goes into a room and introduces themselves just as Dr. So-and-So and examines the patient, lays out a course of treatment within their guidelines then so be it. Was the patient really harmed? Most likely not, confused maybe...truth be told probably didn't realize a damn thing and probably doesn't care as long as they are being treated. "Hello, Sir before we begin treating your MI, I'm Dr. So-and-so an advanced practice nurse and I'm going to briefly sum up the history of healthcare and the various titles that you may find so that you understand that while I am a Doctor I'm not a Doctor in the way you may be thinking...." Before she even gets to start really explaining the patient says: "that's great can you give me something for the pain?"

I think what it really comes down to and I'm not trying to step on any toes is the patient doesnt give a $#it what the titles of their caregivers are as long as they're being treated. It's us that care about titles. Yes I've been there too and said many a time in my start in EMS "I'm not an ambulance driver, I'm a PARAMEDIC," then after a few years "yes ma'am I'm an ambulance driver: you call, we haul, that's all." Once I get through medical school yes I'll probably strut around for a while with my bright white coat "Hi, I'm Doctor Dave." Then hopefully it'll wear off and I'll get down to the real business at hand which is working with colleagues (of all the healthcare disciplines) to help patients. Hell when I started teaching full-time and had the "Lead EMS Instructor" title I though it was great fun to respond to the inevitable "what do you do here" with "I'm the night-time janitor." I kid you not there were people sitting there when I left going what happened to the Janitor that had that really nice office. Think a little more Patch Adams and a little less Dr. House.

On the topic of I'm a Doctor take my son of those meds, it is unfortunate that there will always be people out there that abuse their titles and try to imply things their not. "I'm a Doctor, I Drive a Ferrari" (like a Doc straight out of FP residency can afford a full-size pickup truck let alone a ferrari--or a resident who does have a Doctorate of Medicine or Doctorate of Osteopathic Medicine trying to get laid forgets to mention the whopping 50K a year and 80 hrs a week while in said residency). Hell there's people on the street who dropped out in 8th grade that will tell you they're a doctor. Human nature.

Truly not trying to argue or be offensive but a title is a title, do the job to the best of your ability and don't sweat the small stuff.

I agree with most of this post; however, I think that confusing a patient is a much larger issue than you. We are in the age of the informed patient, and a patient deserves to know who the heck they are talking to.

 

[bocciball]

Historically the term doctor has been used to address to someone with a Ph.D and physician someone who is a medical doctor. Only recently (last 60 years) has the layman term for doctor been used to address a medical doctor.

 

[MedicDO]

Kevon,

I do agree that a patient deserves to know who is treating them, my point was definately more towards the fact that most of them could care less as long as they're being treated (which you said you agreed with so not arguing, just pointing out 😀). I guess my bigger issue was that just becuase a patient doesn't realize that a Nurse Practitioner with a Doctorate is treating them instead of a physician that this automatically equates to being a danger to patient care or that patient care is in someway jeopardized. As I mentioned I definately think the best thing is if someone has a doctorate that is not a physician they should introduce themselves to the patient in some way to denote that they're not a physician, but if this doesn't happen as long as the person is acting within their scope of practice at the facility it really doesn't harm the patient at all other than misleading them (whether inentional or unintentional). The simple fact to me is that healthcare in general is growing as are the individual professions represented within healthcare to the point were its hard sometimes for healthcare providers to keep up and I doubt many in the general population keep up with what profession has a doctorate nowadays and which doesn't.


A very interesting debate but more in the realm of ethics than endangering patient care. 👍

 

[rmj254]

Can the healthcare provider referring to themselves as "Doctor" in a healthcare setting with a doctorate other than MD or DO not just inform the patient about the discipline in which he or she has their doctorate? That seems logical to me, and removes the danger for the patient in the clinical interaction.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Can the healthcare provider referring to themselves as "Doctor" in a healthcare setting with a doctorate other than MD or DO not just inform the patient about the discipline in which he or she has their doctorate? That seems logical to me, and removes the danger for the patient in the clinical interaction.

Can they?? Hell, they can kick down the down and tell patients they are batman. The issue and, again, subject of the thread was using the title in a potentially inappropriate setting. Should, not can.

 

[rmj254]

Can they?? Hell, they can kick down the down and tell patients they are batman. The issue and, again, subject of the thread was using the title in a potentially inappropriate setting. Should, not can.

Alright, should they? If the Optometrist works in a practice with an Opthalmologist, why don't they just identify themselves as Optometrists? That would eliminate the danger to the patient. It doesn't seem to be an amazingly huge issue. As long as no one is misrepresenting themselves, and I'm not advocating that they do, then why is this a problem?

 

[JaggerPlate]

Alright, should they? If the Optometrist works in a practice with an Opthalmologist, why don't they just identify themselves as Optometrists? That would eliminate the danger to the patient. It doesn't seem to be an amazingly huge issue. As long as no one is misrepresenting themselves, and I'm not advocating that they do, then why is this a problem?

You're correct, it is not an amazingly huge issue. The entire thread suffers from a serious case of hyperbole - studded with examples with a sample size of one, uber specific, hypothetical situations, and a lot of irrational emotions. The bottom line is that while the soul of the thread had merit - ie: people using appropriate titles in clinical settings in order to avoid confusion and allow for optimal patient care -, the thread itself has been blown severely out of proportion. Also, I wanted to state that I am just as guilty in partaking in these cardinal sins ...

In your example, if the OD walked into the waiting room and said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Eye Guy, I'll be your optometrist today," then of course there is no problem. People who have doctorates should of course be able to refer to themselves as a doctor, those with advanced doctoral degrees should stick to their respective fields and use their titles/skill set in appropriate settings, and we should all respect the different, but relevant place MD/DOs, DDS, OD, DPM, etc have in the healthcare field.

Whew ... done.

 

[rmj254]

You're correct, it is not an amazingly huge issue. The entire thread suffers from a serious case of hyperbole - studded with examples with a sample size of one, uber specific, hypothetical situations, and a lot of irrational emotions. The bottom line is that while the soul of the thread had merit - ie: people using appropriate titles in clinical settings in order to avoid confusion and allow for optimal patient care -, the thread itself has been blown severely out of proportion. Also, I wanted to state that I am just as guilty in partaking in these cardinal sins ...

In your example, if the OD walked into the waiting room and said, "Hi, I'm Dr. Eye Guy, I'll be your optometrist today," then of course there is no problem. People who have doctorates should of course be able to refer to themselves as a doctor, those with advanced doctoral degrees should stick to their respective fields and use their titles/skill set in appropriate settings, and we should all respect the different, but relevant place MD/DOs, DDS, OD, DPM, etc have in the healthcare field.

Whew ... done.

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, man. I thought I may have been misunderstanding the issue, and I can certainly see a problem if a professional (or anyone else) misrepresents themselves. I am in favor of whoever is addressing the patient letting them know what their discipline is, whether DPT, OD, MD, DO, DPM, DVM 🙂D) or any other doctorate level profession. This would seem to clear up any trouble that may stem from this issue.

 

[JaggerPlate]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply, man. I thought I may have been misunderstanding the issue, and I can certainly see a problem if a professional (or anyone else) misrepresents themselves. I am in favor of whoever is addressing the patient letting them know what their discipline is, whether DPT, OD, MD, DO, DPM, DVM 🙂D) or any other doctorate level profession. This would seem to clear up any trouble that may stem from this issue.

No problem!