Ortho Acceptance Statistics

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ORTHODON

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For all the ortho accepted residents,
could you all post statistics of acceptance, to help ortho wannabe 's
GPA,
ndbe I& II:
class ranking:
applied to:
called for interviews at:
previous research experience:
previous ortho experience,
previous clinical experience,
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:
Miscellaneous which you think useful and helped your acceptan:
Any sugestions?

this could help many.. Please contribute..

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WireBender2010

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For all the ortho accepted residents,
could you all post statistics of acceptance, to help ortho wannabe 's
GPA,
ndbe I& II:
class ranking:
applied to:
called for interviews at:
previous research experience:
previous ortho experience,
previous clinical experience,
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:
Miscellaneous which you think useful and helped your acceptan:
Any sugestions?

this could help many.. Please contribute..



GPA - 3.82
ndbe I& II: 91
class ranking: No ranking given at dental school
called for interviews at: 1
previous research experience: Some (Around 20 peer reviewed publications)
previous ortho experience: None
previous clinical experience: None
international candidates if any: International
additional qualifications: A few graduate degrees
 

Istr8nthem

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For all the ortho accepted residents,
could you all post statistics of acceptance, to help ortho wannabe 's
GPA,
ndbe I& II:
class ranking:
applied to:
called for interviews at:
previous research experience:
previous ortho experience,
previous clinical experience,
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:
Miscellaneous which you think useful and helped your acceptan:
Any sugestions?

this could help many.. Please contribute..


GPA: 3.78
ndbe I& II: 92 & part II-->much lower :)
class ranking: 7
applied to: 12
called for interviews at: 6
previous research experience: Published research in Perio
previous ortho experience: Made retainers and worked for an orthodontic assistant
previous clinical experience: Several dental mission trips
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:
Miscellaneous which you think useful and helped your acceptance: Good interviewing skills and an ability to entertain difficult, ridiculous, off-the-wall questions used by interviewers to see how you react.
Any sugestions: If I new more about you and your stats, I could help you with suggestions.
 
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joc

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GPA, 3.68
ndbe I& II:93
class ranking:2/68
applied to:6
called for interviews at:3
previous research experience: 2yrs plus numerous awards
previous ortho experience,
previous clinical experience,
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:addtitional doctorate degree
 
W

wizziefiend

For all the ortho accepted residents,
could you all post statistics of acceptance, to help ortho wannabe 's
GPA,
ndbe I& II:
class ranking:
applied to:
called for interviews at:
previous research experience:
previous ortho experience,
previous clinical experience,
international candidates if any:
additional qualifications:
Miscellaneous which you think useful and helped your acceptan:
Any sugestions?

this could help many.. Please contribute..

Look for an article published in Angle (??) Journal. SOMEONE must know what I'm talking about. It's in one of the big ortho journals. It talks about applicant profiles and the such. From what I remember it's got most of your info you're requesting!

PM me in a few days if no one could give you that link....then I'll waste time finding it for you!
 

ElDienteLoco

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GPA - 3.82
ndbe I& II: 91
class ranking: No ranking given at dental school
called for interviews at: 1
previous research experience: Some (Around 20 peer reviewed publications)
previous ortho experience: None
previous clinical experience: None
international candidates if any: International
additional qualifications: A few graduate degrees
WireBender 2010:

If 20 peer-reviewed publications only counts as "some" research, I'm in big trouble with one. Way to go. You're an animal.
 

WireBender2010

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WireBender 2010:

If 20 peer-reviewed publications only counts as "some" research, I'm in big trouble with one. Way to go. You're an animal.

Okay take it easy. The doctoral program that I just completed was a bit research intenstive and I was very fortunate to work with extremely productive mentors. That explains why i had that many number of publications during the past 3 years. Also...I was targeting a very specific school for my residency training...so I wanted to make sure that they have me on the top of their list too. By the way, some program directors look for research potential...so even 1 publication is enough to demonstrate this.
 

ElDienteLoco

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It was really a compliment. I was just calling your humility. I think that's great. I'm really glad that you got into the program that you wanted.
 

amalgamation22

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The article is : Factors influencing applicant ranking of orthodontic programs. Angle Orthod. 2006 Jan;76(1):84-91.

It only talks about what applicants vs. program directors think is most important, not the actual stats from the candidates that were accepted vs. those that were not.
 

ORTHODON

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Thanks guys, great help. Hope many more to come..
:)
 

MSH

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Just curious to know typically how many students in any given dental school want to specialize. Particularly NYU, since they have a large class of over 300 students, does anyone know on average what percent wants to specialize??
 

Istr8nthem

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Just curious to know typically how many students in any given dental school want to specialize. Particularly NYU, since they have a large class of over 300 students, does anyone know on average what percent wants to specialize??

This is very hard to estimate due to the fact that many people enter dental school with aspirations of specializing and they tell everyone, but there are also those with the same aspirations, but chose to keep it to themselves or consider themselves unable to make that decision without more dental experience. The number of those who enter dental school wanting to specialize is ALWAYS higher than the number who apply when it comes time. There are always those who are gunners in the beginning of dental school and realize that they are not competitive for a specialty program and don't apply, and at the same time, there are always those who may not have the intentions of applying to specialties early in dental school, but do well in school, and gain experience in one of the specialties and decide to apply when it comes time...
Short answer is you are never going to get an honest response from an entire entering dental school class as to who wants to specialize, and it's also impossible to be completely certain that you want to specialize on your first day of dental school without gaining some experience as a provider.
 
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The percentage varies from school to school. Some dental schools (ie UCLA, Harvard) actually encourage and help their student to get into postgraduate programs... so the percentage will be higher in those school.

For example, 36 (out of 72) students in my UCLA dental class got accepted to posgrad residency programs. My colleague from Harvard dental school told me that all of her 24 classmates, except one, got accepted to postgrad programs... so that was like 96%. At my wife's USC dental school, there were less than 10% (that was my best guess) of her classmates who want to specialize b/c the school is not interested in helping their students to go beyond general dentistry..... also, USC tuitions are too high so most students are less willing to spend more money for postgrad programs.

GPA: N/A...UCLA has a pass/not pass system.
National board part I: 94 Part II: 85
Applied to 16 programs
Got interview: 7
Research: 2 (one in undergrad, one in dental school)
previous experience: GPR
previous ortho. experience: none
 
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Istr8nthem

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The percentage varies from school to school. Some dental schools (ie UCLA, Harvard) actually encourage and help their student to get into postgraduate programs... so the percentage will be higher in those school.

For example, 36 (out of 72) students in my UCLA dental class got accepted to posgrad residency programs. My colleague from Harvard dental school told me that all of her 24 classmates, except one, got accepted to postgrad programs... so that was like 96%. At my wife's USC dental school, there were less than 10% (that was my best guess) of her classmates who want to specialize b/c the school is not interested in helping their students to go beyond general dentistry..... also, USC tuitions are too high so most students are less willing to spend more money for postgrad programs.

GPA: N/A...UCLA has a pass/not pass system.
National board part I: 94 Part II: 85
Applied to 16 programs
Got interview: 7
Research: 2 (one in undergrad, one in dental school)
previous experience: GPR
previous ortho. experience: none

Are you using "postgrad programs" synonymously with specialties??? If so, you may be confusing some people The number going on to actual postgrad programs, be it GPR's, AEGD's or specialty programs are going to be fairly high for most schools, especially those in California and New York where a year of residency or specialty program completion is now needed for licensure.
 
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This is a good question. Postgrad programs that I mentioned included all the specialties plus GPR and AEGD. The admission numbers that I pointed out earlier was back in 1998. Wow, that was 9 years ago... I am really old.:(
 

ortho07

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GPA: 3.84
ndbe I& II: 91 & 85
class ranking: 3
applied to: 20
called for interviews at: 3
previous research experience: None
previous ortho experience: None
previous clinical experience: None
additional qualifications: None
Match/Non-Match: Match
 

wishfulthinker

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orthodon, thanks for bringing this topic up in a way which effectively gives us an idea of what it takes.

i was currently under the impression that you must have a 90+ on the part I and a 3.9 (and according to some people, a 3.95 or higher gpa)

i see now that the trend is 90+ on the board but not necessarily on the gpa part. it seems like 3.7-3.8 is the norm for ortho? or are these posts just of people with phds (way to go on 20 publications) and international,etc?

say you have a 3.9 gpa, a 90 board part I score, and a summer research experience plus some from undergrad but your research is avg so you dont really have any publications but maybe wrote an abstract did a poster etc but didnt do anything major. is that enough to make you competitive or are you like all the other applicants applying to ortho?

also, do any programs offer stipends? my friend is interested in pedo and she says the odds of getting into a stipend no tuiton program is like 1:20 but the odds go way up if you apply somewhere that there is a tuition and no stipend. does this apply to ortho?

thanks
 

dentalmental

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orthodon, thanks for bringing this topic up in a way which effectively gives us an idea of what it takes.

i was currently under the impression that you must have a 90+ on the part I and a 3.9 (and according to some people, a 3.95 or higher gpa)

i see now that the trend is 90+ on the board but not necessarily on the gpa part. it seems like 3.7-3.8 is the norm for ortho? or are these posts just of people with phds (way to go on 20 publications) and international,etc?

say you have a 3.9 gpa, a 90 board part I score, and a summer research experience plus some from undergrad but your research is avg so you dont really have any publications but maybe wrote an abstract did a poster etc but didnt do anything major. is that enough to make you competitive or are you like all the other applicants applying to ortho?

also, do any programs offer stipends? my friend is interested in pedo and she says the odds of getting into a stipend no tuiton program is like 1:20 but the odds go way up if you apply somewhere that there is a tuition and no stipend. does this apply to ortho?

thanks

hi,
from what i hear in posts in sdn, 2yr courses are more competetive than 3yr courses and yes ur friend is right about the ratios.. and am sure it applies to ortho also.. As for the other things that you asked, i think current residents should be able to answer better.. regarding the stipend and fees thing, i would worry about getting admission first and fees and stipend later because you will eventually make it up anyways..your education is for a lifetime, and getting into ortho is no joke. If u get it, go for it. money comes and goes, but opportunity to get into an ortho program don't come so often..(unless you are einstein's grandchild)
good luck
 

nate28

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paolorossifan

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Therefore...it is NOT true that you must get a 95 on Part I?

(Ive heard that from every pre-ortho expert around)

Laurentian Abyssal.
 

dentalmental

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from what i hear, there's no surefire way, while Part I 95+ is definitely a strong point in ur application, it may not be a hard and fast rule, a lot of factors are considered and u gotta try ur best and keep ur fingers crossed!
good luck!
 

Wayne Coronado

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No surefire way indeed. One of my classmates who graduated #7 in our class with a 97 Part I did not match. He also spent summers working in ortho offices and did research. I am not sure how much time he spent with ortho faculty or in the ortho clinic.

My girlfriend matched at her #1 choice (which was her alma mater);) with #11 rank and an 87 Part I. She also worked in the ortho faculty practice over summers and did ortho-related research as well. She had good relationships with all of the faculty and current residents.

My opinion is do your best to get to know your faculty (and more importantly get them to know you). Secure a spot at your own program before looking elsewhere. As a bonus, you will have better letters of rec (especially if your PD or chair is well-published) :thumbup: which will obviously help if you are looking outside your institution. Additionally, a not-so-great score (I will be apologizing to my woman later) can be overlooked and faculty (as well as residents) can go with a person that they know they feel comfortable with already.

I do agree that in order to rack up the interviews at the other schools, a mid-90's score balanced with top 10% with some ortho-related extras seems to be a good formula. This of course is just based on my observations of those that applied ortho at my school. The other guy who applied in my class had a 94 Part I, #4 rank, published research, not much ortho experience and matched at his (I believe) #4 choice.

Hope this helps...
 
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My classmate, who scored 86 on NDBE part I, got matched to our own school. Everybody in my class was shocked when he got matched and the #1 guy in our class did not get matched anywhere. I heard that this #1 guy only applied to 5 schools. The 1 special thing about my classmate w/ an 86 score was that he did and published an impressive ortho research (not just some lame papers that I and the rest of my class did). Almost all the programs that he applied to called him for interview.

So you need to do a good research if you don't have a stellar board score and you need to apply to as many programs as you can to increase your chance.

I don't think most programs really care if you have some ortho experiences. A lot of ortho instructors would prefer teaching someone who knows nothing but is willing to learn to someone who thinks he or she knows everything. Talking too much about yourself and your accomplishment in an interview is not advisable since they have already read your CV. Always praise all the good things that their program offers and show them that you are really interested in becoming their resident. Good Luck!
 

vorosvirag

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My classmate, who scored 86 on NDBE part I, got matched to our own school. Everybody in my class was shocked when he got matched and the #1 guy in our class did not get matched anywhere. I heard that this #1 guy only applied to 5 schools. The 1 special thing about my classmate w/ an 86 score was that he did and published an impressive ortho research (not just some lame papers that I and the rest of my class did). Almost all the programs that he applied to called him for interview.QUOTE]

These stories that showcase people w/ less-than-stellar stats are only encouraging to those w/ less-than-stellar stats. It's another example that a balanced, merit-based approach doesn't always work.

Politics definitely plays a role. From my experience, it was not easy to make inroads with faculty--especially, certain ones. It's clear to me that these "impressive ortho research" opportunities aren't open to everyone. Ortho-aspiring dental students are often hand-picked by faculty or current residents to work on such projects. Like I said, there ain't equal opportunity for cool publications. That's what makes it so frustrating to those whose merits are their only options.

What was the publication on, by the way? I'm fine that the above fellow hit a gold mine w/ his research. He otherwise doesn't sound like a strong candidate. In the end, the directors choose whom they want. Some favor merit, some don't.

#1 guy will get in eventually, and will do so on merit. He'll continue to work hard his entire life. Research guy likely got in primarily through contacts because of a paper that likely few will read and even fewer will care about. And he'll go about life the way he always has. And hang-out-with-residents-and-faculty-during-the-summer girl proves the point that short-term relationships pay off big and overshadow poor long-term performance.

You guys may not like the frankness with which I speak, but these are real people. Some get in, some don't. Many times, I'd argue the "wrong" person got in. I talk to applying students who are dismayed and frustrated by the extent of the politics. These two examples (low scores coupled with compensatory high-level faculty/resident interactions and/or based-on-whom-you-know research) are exactly what applicants are talking about.
 

vorosvirag

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There's little hope that such politics will change. People are people. Directors are no different. Directors have little power, except through the admissions process. Many ortho academics lack the respect of their colleagues in the community, resent this fact, and look for ways to leave their mark. One of the few ways they can shape orthodontics is through selecting residents.

What makes the hang-out-with-you types any more deserving of those positions than anyone else? Especially when compared to those who have arguable "worked for it?" (Unless the #1 types are fully dysfunctional. Yet, that rarely is the case.)

I would guess they understand merit won't get them there, so they ramp up the "relationship-building" phase of their application. Do they really get along better than others? What's to show that? Lower scores equals more likeable personalities? It's most likely a desperation move that may give them a better shot at their home school, but does little elsewhere (unless big-time doc did research with them).


These same dental students who "love" performing research and hanging out w/ department people predictably transform into typical ortho graduates 3 years later (or so). They, like those who got in through other means, are supremely excited to get away from the programs they blew entire summers forging alliances with. It's all temporary relationship building. Do anything for a spot!

A return to a more merit-based approach is the appropriate way. Won't happen, though, because the directors are people who will always accept a % of the applicants based on whom they like--not what they've done.
 
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What was the publication on, by the way? I'm fine that the above fellow hit a gold mine w/ his research. He otherwise doesn't sound like a strong candidate. In the end, the directors choose whom they want. Some favor merit, some don't.

Some research oriented programs like UCLA, Harvard, UNC would love to accept a candidate w/ strong research back ground; famous programs need good research publications to keep them famous. The fellow, who had the low board score, worked on his project almost entirely by himself…. I don't think he is capable of butt kissing the faculty with his thick Korean accent.
 

vize

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vorosvirag, most of what you said was right, but why do you think that is? If it was as easy as studying for 24 hours a day and getting high scores, then the whole profession would be supersaturated by nerds. No one likes a nerd; they like personality and sociability, along with intelligence. After all, they will be your future colleagues during residency. My sister had a high 80 something on Part I and matched to ortho. The interviewers said she was the most likable person they've ever interviewed. I've also heard numerous dentists discussing how a couple of their patients said, "Wow, a dentist with some personality." At the end of dental school and residency, it is patient satisfaction that matters the most. The ability to socialize and interact with people of all types goes further than anything you can imagine. Hell, look at the people President Bush has hired for his staff. :laugh:
 

vorosvirag

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I'm all for likeable people. We look for that in the interviewees. Yet, I see enough equally likables (w/ superior credentials) get hosed on match day. That's neither fun nor fair.

Good scores don't come solely from 24 hours-a-day studying. If you are a professional or still a student, you understand this. Work plays a part, but so does organization and preparation. These are important life skills. No less important in certain areas of life and practice than being likeable.

Dentists with both high and low scores may lack a personality. Some have it some don't. Your sister does, which is wonderful.

I just regret the cases in which connections alone prevail. Most candidates with solid applications but inferior personal contacts do get in. Yet, too many (though the number may be relatively small) do not. In those cases, the politics on others' behalf looks deplorable.
 

vorosvirag

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Some research oriented programs like UCLA, Harvard, UNC would love to accept a candidate w/ strong research back ground; famous programs need good research publications to keep them famous. The fellow, who had the low board score, worked on his project almost entirely by himself…. I don't think he is capable of butt kissing the faculty with his thick Korean accent.[/QUOTE]

So, will this guy continue with research post-residency? We do need PhD/academic types in virtually all U.S. programs. The shortage is ridiculously critical. In fact, many programs reserve positions for those exact research-focused, PhD students. If he falls into that category, he "deserves" such a position, in my opinion.

If not, he surely will bolt after his residency weary of and eager to abandon all forms of research. If this 2nd scenario is true, why accept someone who simply did a single thing well that nobody else wanted to do (research), yet grossly lacked in other areas (boards and class rank) thought by everyone else to be essential for acceptance?
 
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If it was as easy as studying for 24 hours a day and getting high scores, then the whole profession would be supersaturated by nerds. No one likes a nerd; . :laugh:

Good point, Vize!!! This reminds me of a candidate who came to my program for an interview. He had a very impressive academic record (probably the best among all the interviewed candidates). The only problem was that his class II div 1, deep bite, weak chin face along with his thick eyeglasses made him appear to be a little bit unfriendly (I am sorry I am not trying to be mean… I just want to tell the true but sad story). After the interview, our director did not choose him…. but I am sure he probably got matched somewhere else. I think the main purpose for having an interview is for the directors to see who you really are, what you look like but not so much to hear what you have to say about your accomplishment b/c they have already been impressed from reading your application.

Vorosvirag, you are completely right. I know it is unfair since I also worked very hard to earn good board scores. But it is the fact that there are programs that want to pick strong research candidates.
 

gryffindor

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If it was as easy as studying for 24 hours a day and getting high scores, then the whole profession would be supersaturated by nerds. No one likes a nerd; they like personality and sociability, along with intelligence. After all, they will be your future colleagues during residency.

I've been to over 20 ortho departments in the US either on interviews or visits, and in the process met countless candidates and residents, and I've been through 1 cycle of meeting the candidates applying to my program. This thinking is simply false. It was uncommon, I'd even say pretty rare, to meet the high-scores-no-personality type of person you are stereotyping. Almost everyone was friendly, gave off cool vibes, and many of them had the scores to match. In fact, the GORP meeting is in 2 weeks and there will be ortho residents from all over the country there. It is going to be a good time, not a weekend of anti-social residents reading textbooks 24/7.

vorosvirag, you have just summarized all my perceptions of orthodontic admissions. I agree with you 100%.
 

vize

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I wasn't necessarily trying to say it's a stereotype, although in my experience it wasn't totally uncommon. I'd say I've also met many residents who weren't anti-social bookworms. I said what I said, previously, because I didn't want people getting the notion that it's all about textbooks. When people on this board post their spectacular scores of 90+ on the boards with 3.7+ dental GPAs, it tends to make me, and I'm sure others, think that it's all about studying your ass off every day all day in order to be successful. I'm not saying everyone with those scores studies every day all day, but online, how are we to know that? And to those people who don't have such high scores and GPAs, it is sort of discouraging to see. So I thought I would share my experiences to give hope to others. Also, with dentistry becoming so much more competitive, I don't want anti-social bookworms thinking that all they have to do is study and they'll be alright. Even though that is sometimes the case, hehe.
 

wishfulthinker

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hi,
from what i hear in posts in sdn, 2yr courses are more competetive than 3yr courses and yes ur friend is right about the ratios.. and am sure it applies to ortho also.. As for the other things that you asked, i think current residents should be able to answer better.. regarding the stipend and fees thing, i would worry about getting admission first and fees and stipend later because you will eventually make it up anyways..your education is for a lifetime, and getting into ortho is no joke. If u get it, go for it. money comes and goes, but opportunity to get into an ortho program don't come so often..(unless you are einstein's grandchild)
good luck


thanks dental mental... I wont skimp on an opportunity at ortho, I was just wondering if the trend exists in ortho as well as it did for my friend who did pedo. cause honestly, i'll shell out 50K, 80K etc for nyu or columbia and take a loan and live off of it during a 3 year program, rather than get a salary at harlem hospital if it meant i could do my ideal career cause i know the money will be not so much of a concern in the future.

oh and the stats are quite impressive everyone.
 

Doctor4329

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I know for a fact that atleast at two schools, the directors hold a spot for 'whomever' they choose.

It's politics people. Some fair , some not. The world's not a fair place and there's no equation as to how to get into a program. You can have a crap resume, but if you know someone, (ie. family friend), you're in. That's just the way this works.
 

shmoopie

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I have a 91 on Part I, but my school doesnt have GPA or class rank. I have some research, but probably no more than anyone esle applying for ortho. So how will the programs know what to do with someone like me? Do I even have a shot at an interview if all they can go on is a part I score?
 

yojimbo53

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what school? my understanding was that schools like Upenn and Columbia do not rank students, BUT if you are within the top 10% they DO mention that on the Deans Letter.


I have a 91 on Part I, but my school doesnt have GPA or class rank. I have some research, but probably no more than anyone esle applying for ortho. So how will the programs know what to do with someone like me? Do I even have a shot at an interview if all they can go on is a part I score?
 

Jyaki

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There is no absolute stats that will get you into ortho. It is considered that you should have at least a 90 on Part I's and be in the top 10% of your class...and everything else is just gravy. However, you need to look at it like this. Ortho is THE most competitive specialty and you will be fighting for a handful of spots against thousands of applicants nationwide. You will be competing against applicants with: masters, phd, research publications, work experience, military experience, graduated #1 from the best dental school in their country and wants to pursue ortho academia in the United States, alumni family members, parents that are large donors, full-time research experience under the ortho director for the past year, etc. These were the type of applicants I met on my interviews and believe it or not, none of them were nerds. All of them had great personalities and were very presentable. With the caliber of the playing field set so high, is it really wise to jump-in with the bare minimum in requirements? It's your call if you want to take that chance. But if you want a decent shot at getting in, evaluate your weakness and figure out how you can overcome it...what can you do/add to make yourself shine? Like many of the stories that you read on SDN, it's not just the numbers. Good luck.
 
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