Ortho Interview

[gryffindor]

Since the rank ordering is all that's on my mind right now, I have a question for all of the other interviewees on this board.

What do you all think about the potential debt to be accrued during ortho residency? Some of these schools are mad expensive, and I'm just wondering if debt is a consideration in your list. Are the rest of you concerned at all, or is this something you'll deal with at a later date when residency is done and you finally have a real job?

When you ask the residents about debt, they don't seem to know or care if there are consequences, so I guess that's why I'm confused. I know that there probably aren't starving orthodontists out there, but the reality of loan repayment and real life hasn't really hit me yet, so I don't know what to think. At an interview earlier this week, one of the residents mentioned that him & his wife will have $600,000 in dental education debt when he finished with ortho. Add that to the loans necessary to buy & start a practice, it's likely that number could inch close to $1 million, which to me sounds real scary.

Boy am I glad to be done interviewing, I can finally unpack my suitcase for good and get a good night's sleep this weekend.

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[texas_dds]

yes debt is a big concern for me
but in the end i submitted my ranks w/my top pick being on the pricey side.
it will all work out - my motto is 'its been done before so it will be done again'
my parents are losing more sleep over it than i am, though

 

[DDSSlave]

yes debt is a big concern for me
but in the end i submitted my ranks w/my top pick being on the pricey side.
it will all work out - my motto is 'its been done before so it will be done again'
my parents are losing more sleep over it than i am, though

You don't have to say where you ranked, but I am interested in what the deciding factor was. Faculty, equipment, techniques taught, orthagnathic exposure, stipend, location, etc?

 

[tooth_sleuth]

Anyone ever ranked a school they didn't interview at? Just curious....

 

[marathondoc]

it's official: UMKC is no longer pursuing a deal with OEC. yay! but, I just went to the case western interviews and i would not be surprised if they are the next school to make a deal with OEC.

Also, got a late invite for u of kentucky interview?--does anybody have any opinions regarding their program?

 

[DDSSlave]

it's official: UMKC is no longer pursuing a deal with OEC. yay! but, I just went to the case western interviews and i would not be surprised if they are the next school to make a deal with OEC.

Great news about UMKC. Any particular source for that or Case? I was under the impression UMKC ortho faculty put up a strong resistance. Hopefully they will prove to be an example for all other programs. If this is officially announced, I hope it won't be too late for UMKC to attract strong applicants for next years class.

 

[Jediwendell]

it's official: UMKC is no longer pursuing a deal with OEC. yay! but, I just went to the case western interviews and i would not be surprised if they are the next school to make a deal with OEC.

Also, got a late invite for u of kentucky interview?--does anybody have any opinions regarding their program?

Hey, I was at Case too and didn't get that feeling. Did you get some inside skinny on the OEC deal at Case?

 

[texas_dds]

wow glad to hear that UMKC turned things around but sad that i declined the interview already

um, my program rank was based on several factors:
LOCATION, reputation, faculty, facilities, research potential, happiness of residents, amount of lab work, # of clinical assistants/student, # of chairs/student, the killer view from the operatory windows and gorgeous campus, family/friends in the area
my 2nd, 3rd, etc choices are based mostly on cost effectiveness
a funny note: one program dropped to the bottom of my list when i found out they do not attend GORP

 

[TrojanDDS]

I had my last interview yesterday, I certified my match list tonight, and all that is left is "The Day" one month from now. Supposedly the first line in the e-mail (not the subject header) on Dec. 6 will read "CONGRATULATIONS" if you get in, and if you scroll down you will see the program. Good luck to everyone applying this year.

 

[trypmo]

wow glad to hear that UMKC turned things around but sad that i declined the interview already

um, my program rank was based on several factors:
LOCATION, reputation, faculty, facilities, research potential, happiness of residents, amount of lab work, # of clinical assistants/student, # of chairs/student, the killer view from the operatory windows and gorgeous campus, family/friends in the area
my 2nd, 3rd, etc choices are based mostly on cost effectiveness
a funny note: one program dropped to the bottom of my list when i found out they do not attend GORP

GORP, not as in trail mix ("Good Ol' Raisins & Peanuts), though, right?

 

[DDSSlave]

There's probably someone here that knows more about GORP than I, but it's essentially a conference where all (or almost all) the ortho residents from programs across the country gather to meet each other, hang out, and take classes.

I'd actually be interested to hear which programs don't attend GORP. Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

 

[texas_dds]

There's probably someone here that knows more about GORP than I, but it's essentially a conference where all (or almost all) the ortho residents from programs across the country gather to meet each other, hang out, and take classes.

I'd actually be interested to hear which programs don't attend GORP. Feel free to PM me if you prefer.

ive only heard that iowa doesnt go
also north carolina doesnt go until 2nd year

 

[Clownpenis]

Quick question on the subject of declining an interview: How late should you wait? A friend of mine wants to cancel for this Friday--I said that they've already planned their schedule and ordered lunch for him etc, and that he made a committment, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Your thoughts?

 

[texas_dds]

i think one week is way too late
i tried to give mine 3 weeks notice minimum.

 

[gryffindor]

Quick question on the subject of declining an interview: How late should you wait? A friend of mine wants to cancel for this Friday--I said that they've already planned their schedule and ordered lunch for him etc, and that he made a committment, but he doesn't see anything wrong with it. Your thoughts?

Today is only Monday. If he wants to cancel for Friday, I say go ahead and call them this afternoon or early tomorrow morning. If the program has an alternate list, it's not too late for them to call alternate applicants for a Friday interview. If they can reach alternates by Wednesday, it still gives them a chance to come interview for Friday.

No sense in him going to the interview if he doesn't want to attend that school. Give someone else the chance to interview. The programs call alternate applicants late to interview all the time; I myself got an e-mail on a Tuesday for a Friday interview.

Lunch orders mean squat; usually the lunches suck anyways and an extra sandwich sitting around doesn't really matter.

3 weeks notice to cancel? Your programs were real generous in contacting you prior to the interviews. Almost all of mine contacted me with about 2 weeks notice or less.

 

[gryffindor]

.

 

[texas_dds]

wow scary to think about that dec 6th email: good bad or ugly im gonna be a wreck i think!

well i promised more details about some schools
Baylor: stellar program, newish clinic, really excellent research director, looking to hire a clinical director, big name part timers, good surgical exposure, $5K or so for tuition (everyone gets instate tuition and health insurance cause you are a Baylor employee) and $8K stipend per year for 2.5 years. the drawback is the crummy part of dallas its located in. also you do all your own models but i cant remember about retainers.

Houston: again a good program, oldish clinic, the NICEST man as program director, very casual environment it seems, students have quite a bit of flexibility w/scheduling etc. I can't remember the tuition/stipend part but its just under what Baylor gives (BUT out of state is steep and you cannot become a TX resident), located in the largest medical center in the world - its very own huge city. humidity=bad hair day

Oklahoma: I will let you know next week

 

[VancouverDoc2b]

I just wanted to say that I respect the effort and hard work that everyone has put into being in a position to specialize and just wanna wish everyone good luck for the upcoming Ortho Match

 

[ItsGavinC]

I just wanted to say that I respect the effort and hard work that everyone has put into being in a position to specialize and just wanna wish everyone good luck for the upcoming Ortho Match

For sure. And, although all of these graduates will be moving on to greener pastures in whatever program they match with, I hope they will still stick around and post on SDN.

 

[noodletw]

hi all ortho residency applicants,
I was just wondering... other than the financial aspect of ortho, what made you guys decide that you wanted to become an orthodontist? what do you guys like about the field of orthodontics? any pros and cons?

by the way, I just wanted to wish everyone good luck with interviews and hope that everyone will be matched by dec

 

[texas_dds]

hi all ortho residency applicants,
I was just wondering... other than the financial aspect of ortho, what made you guys decide that you wanted to become an orthodontist? what do you guys like about the field of orthodontics? any pros and cons?

well my original reason was that i want badly to give to my patients the gift i was given by my orthodontist: confidence. i had some fugly teeth - i mean dracula! the improvement i percieved in myself was astounding. enough said.
then after being in dental school, i became really interested in growth and development, craniofacial anomalies, and of course more ortho.
also, i kinda dislike the whole mess involved w/operative and fixed pros. i am not turned off by blood and needles, etc. but i think i dont want to have to deal with them every day. maybe im paranoid but im always afraid ill get hepatitis or something. i dont see that being as much of an issue in ortho.

 

[texas_dds]

just finished my last interview - wow it feels great!
but now figuring out how to rank gets more confusing - the last program i went to is definitely moving up on my list but i am having a hell of time deciding how far up to put it. the pros/cons list to decide between #2 and #3 is long and really close to being even... basically it comes down to prestige versus cost of living.

 

[Geezer99]

OEC cares nothing about our profession, only about making $$$$$. It's not about underserved populations or shortages of orthodontists. It's about making $$$$.

Of course it's all about money!!! What aspect of dentistry isn't! Orthodontists themselves are really to blame for this. They make sooo much money and give back sooo little to the programs that they are forced to look elsewhere (OEC). It sounds like OEC is not accepted well by the educational community, but they are still finding schools that have current ortho residencies to join on (UMKC). The only thing that will stop OEC is for orthodontists across the nation to sell their yachts and give back a little....essentially buy them out....Good Luck!

 

[DDSSlave]

OEC cares nothing about our profession, only about making $$$$$. It's not about underserved populations or shortages of orthodontists. It's about making $$$$.

Of course it's all about money!!! What aspect of dentistry isn't! Orthodontists themselves are really to blame for this. They make sooo much money and give back sooo little to the programs that they are forced to look elsewhere (OEC). It sounds like OEC is not accepted well by the educational community, but they are still finding schools that have current ortho residencies to join on (UMKC). The only thing that will stop OEC is for orthodontists across the nation to sell their yachts and give back a little....essentially buy them out....Good Luck!

I'm at odds whether to even reply to such a statement. Instead of just assuming, why not ask some of the ortho residents at your school how strong their alumni support is. Better yet, ask a UMKC resident about their alumni. You'll find that orthodontists are some of the most generous practitioners in dentistry. UMKC's ortho alumni donated a million to refurbish the clinic just before the OEC intrusion was publicly announced - fyi.

 

[Geezer99]

I'm at odds whether to even reply to such a statement. Instead of just assuming, why not ask some of the ortho residents at your school how strong their alumni support is. Better yet, ask a UMKC resident about their alumni. You'll find that orthodontists are some of the most generous practitioners in dentistry. UMKC's ortho alumni donated a million to refurbish the clinic just before the OEC intrusion was publicly announced - fyi.

So obviously there is something amiss....who is being misleading...why is a school with no financial problems taking on the OEC program? Perhaps the orthodontic community doesn't have the same negative view of OEC as you do. (Just trying to figure out what all the hype is about)

 

[texas_dds]

sorry that i am dupicating my own post but i think it is pertinent


from a UMKC grad who is an ortho resident at another school:

the alumni at UMKC threatened to cut their support and the faculty threatened to walk - tons of letters were written from all over to stop this BS and IT WORKED! this gives me tremendous hope that established programs can be salvaged from this blight.

 

[VancouverDoc2b]

hey guys,

just wondering....roughly how many people apply to ortho programs and how many people get matched?? if you have the information or the link to the websites where i could find this information that would be really appreciated....thanks

 

[gryffindor]

I finally put my list in and certified it today. After all my agonizing, I still can't figure out between my #1 & #2 choices which one I would really be better off at, it almost came down to flipping a coin.

I had posted earlier about whether anyone was worried about financing their ortho training. My final list was orderded by location being the primary factor, followed by consideration for cost.

 

[Jediwendell]

hey guys,

just wondering....roughly how many people apply to ortho programs and how many people get matched?? if you have the information or the link to the websites where i could find this information that would be really appreciated....thanks

I believe that most places have applicant to acceptance ratios of 50:1 or greater, depending on the school. UW or UNC may be 150:1. It is very competitive. I got interviews at 50% of the places I applied to, and had gotten 25 out of 25 interviews when I applied for OMS in 2001.
W

 

[texas_dds]

i have changed my rank order list about 3 times! all the middle spots keep shifting around. this is terribly confusing, but the most wonderful problem ive ever had. i think i need a beer.

 

[trypmo]

That's awesome! (And a beer is good too.)

 

[Jone]

You applied to both ortho and OMS at the same time?

I thought this was very frowned upon and adcom's would pretty much toss your app in the trash because they perceived lack of genuine interest. Am I mistaken?

What was their reaction when you told them you were applying to both?

I believe that most places have applicant to acceptance ratios of 50:1 or greater, depending on the school. UW or UNC may be 150:1. It is very competitive. I got interviews at 50% of the places I applied to, and had gotten 25 out of 25 interviews when I applied for OMS in 2001.
W

 

[Jediwendell]

You applied to both ortho and OMS at the same time?

I thought this was very frowned upon and adcom's would pretty much toss your app in the trash because they perceived lack of genuine interest. Am I mistaken?

What was their reaction when you told them you were applying to both?

No, I applied for OMS in 2001 and got in and did three years of the residency. And you are correct, it is frowned upon to change residencies. Thankfully I had the grades to do it and got a great letter of recommendation from my director. You can imagine what the interview questions were like.

 

[decaydigger]

hey guys,

just wondering....roughly how many people apply to ortho programs and how many people get matched?? if you have the information or the link to the websites where i could find this information that would be really appreciated....thanks

Match Results for the 2004-2005 ortho positions

# of applicants participating in MATCH: 512
# of applicants Matched: 243
# not matched: 269

Odds are almost 50% you'll get match. You just have to realize that the people applying all have pretty good stats (high class rank, boards, experience, etc.).

Even though one program may have over 100 applicants for 3-4 spots, most are applying to more than one program. It's very likely that the same 100 applicants may have applied to other programs in the very same region of the US.

Sure only 3-4 people may wind up going to UW or UNC, but chances are a lot of those who applied there wound at other programs.

Best of luck with the Match.

 

[Jediwendell]

Match Results for the 2004-2005 ortho positions

# of applicants participating in MATCH: 512
# of applicants Matched: 243
# not matched: 269

Odds are almost 50% you'll get match. You just have to realize that the people applying all have pretty good stats (high class rank, boards, experience, etc.).

Even though one program may have over 100 applicants for 3-4 spots, most are applying to more than one program. It's very likely that the same 100 applicants may have applied to other programs in the very same region of the US.

Sure only 3-4 people may wind up going to UW or UNC, but chances are a lot of those who applied there wound at other programs.

Best of luck with the Match.

These stats are a little misleading. They don't take into account the number of people that apply and end up not getting a match number for whatever reason. I know that the application to acceptance ratio is much, much higher than 2:1. So, what can you take from these stats? If you get interviews and get a match number, you have a 50/50 chance of matching.

 

[DDSSlave]

To all of this yrs applicants:

When did you submit all your transcripts, board scores, letters etc to PASS/MATCH?

When did you take the GRE?

 

[texas_dds]

i sent my application stuff in late june and early july (only 4 of 12 were through PASS, the rest were specific to the school - yuck!) but i got started on it in early May (including getting a match #)

took the GRE in mid June

 

[TrojanDDS]

These stats are a little misleading. They don't take into account the number of people that apply and end up not getting a match number for whatever reason. I know that the application to acceptance ratio is much, much higher than 2:1. So, what can you take from these stats? If you get interviews and get a match number, you have a 50/50 chance of matching.

I don't know if the match stats take into account those who actually receive interviews and submit a rank order list.. because it is extremely difficult just getting an interview and people do get shut out. I hear at some programs they receive around 150-200 applications and hold ~40 interviews for 6-7 spots. Most of the programs I went to had about a 1 in 7 chance of getting in after the interview, but luckily I saw a lot of the same people at each one.

 

[decaydigger]

These stats are a little misleading. They don't take into account the number of people that apply and end up not getting a match number for whatever reason. I know that the application to acceptance ratio is much, much higher than 2:1. So, what can you take from these stats? If you get interviews and get a match number, you have a 50/50 chance of matching.

The Match numbers represent approx 51 of the 57 or so ortho programs. Plus, it is very likely that most of those who applied to the non-Match programs (Tufts, Loma Linda, etc) also applied to Match programs.
Hard to think of a reason that most SERIOUS applicants applying to post grad programs wouldn't get a MATCH number. Also, I think that the Match registering deadline is around Oct 1st, meaning that many applicants would have to get a Match number even before even knowing they have gotten interviews.

The numbers that Match puts out represent those who actually registered for the Match, regardless of whether a rank list was submitted by the applicant.

 

[Jediwendell]

The Match numbers represent approx 51 of the 57 or so ortho programs. Plus, it is very likely that most of those who applied to the non-Match programs (Tufts, Loma Linda, etc) also applied to Match programs.
Hard to think of a reason that most SERIOUS applicants applying to post grad programs wouldn't get a MATCH number. Also, I think that the Match registering deadline is around Oct 1st, meaning that many applicants would have to get a Match number even before even knowing they have gotten interviews.

The numbers that Match puts out represent those who actually registered for the Match, regardless of whether a rank list was submitted by the applicant.

No, I understand what you are saying. Just most programs will tell you that they have a 30:1 ratio of applicants to acceptances or more. That is a whole lot more competitive than the 2:1 ratio from the Match people. Just seems like there is a disconnect there.

 

[DocDrtySanchez]

Decaydigger...the 512 individuals who participated in the match last year is inclusive of only those individuals who submitted a match list...in order to submit a rank order match list, an individual needs to be interviewed by at least one program. Getting an interview is a hurdle in itself. I know of individuals who applied to 30 some odd programs and ended up with only 2 interviews...there are also those individuals who apply everywhere and get no interviews...so there are multiple hurdles to jump over...and in the end, once you've interviewed and submitted a rank order list, you've still got less than a 50 percent chance of matching. I don't mean to make anyone nervous...I went through the process last year and I know how stressful it is. The stress is real...and it is certainly warranted. Best of luck to all.

 

[decaydigger]

Decaydigger...the 512 individuals who participated in the match last year is inclusive of only those individuals who submitted a match list...in order to submit a rank order match list, an individual needs to be interviewed by at least one program. Getting an interview is a hurdle in itself. I know of individuals who applied to 30 some odd programs and ended up with only 2 interviews...there are also those individuals who apply everywhere and get no interviews...so there are multiple hurdles to jump over...and in the end, once you've interviewed and submitted a rank order list, you've still got less than a 50 percent chance of matching. I don't mean to make anyone nervous...I went through the process last year and I know how stressful it is. The stress is real...and it is certainly warranted. Best of luck to all.

DDSanchez,

Thanks for the correction. It was even more competitive than I thought! I can see how the numbers are 50-100:1 for any particular program, but there's no way that can represent the true odds of getting into ortho. With 250 ortho spot a year those odds would mean like 12,500 people apply for ortho every year, right? Even 10:1 odds means 2,500 people would have to apply. Aren't there only like 4-5,000 dental grads a year?

Whatever the case, my advice to those considering: do well in school, do well on boards, research, meet some people in ortho, and apply. I applied to over 30 programs! You never know, even I got in.

 

[texas_dds]

cant recall where i got this # but i heard about 8500 applied for ortho last year. a whole lot of interviewees i met were not your traditional senior in dental school - there were many orthodontists and dentists from other countries and innumerable US dentists wanting to come back to school - i think that is part of the reason the # is so high.

 

[gryffindor]

cant recall where i got this # but i heard about 8500 applied for ortho last year. a whole lot of interviewees i met were not your traditional senior in dental school - there were many orthodontists and dentists from other countries and innumerable US dentists wanting to come back to school - i think that is part of the reason the # is so high.

I think that 8500 is the number Mouth magazine printed, and the discussion on this board was that 8500 is probably the total number of APPLICATIONS, not the number of applicants. There are probably like 600 applicants, and if each one applies to 14 programs, that is 8400 applications. 8500 applicants is too many to be realistic, but 8500 applications sound about right.

 

[kato999]

i think only 4500 or so students graduate from dental school each year so 8500 applying to ortho might be bit high

I heard the number of people that apply each year for around 200 ortho residency positions was 700-900.

 

[international]

Hi everyone,
I am thrilled to see the posts from all of you and i would like to thank you all for your valuable contribution to this thread. I will be applying next year for ortho and i was wondering how much score they look in GRE and whether does that play any major role or just a requirement.
Any reply will be deeply appreciated.

Thanks in advance and i wish all the applicants all the best.

International

 

[texas_dds]

ive always heard 1200 is the magic # for the GRE but i have no proof of this. the gre was never brought up anywhere i went.

 

[texas_dds]

for everyone's information, Im curious to know what the average # of schools people applied to and interviewed at this year - I'll start:

# applications, #interviews offered, # attended, # programs ranked:


12, 8, 6, 5

 

[international]

ive always heard 1200 is the magic # for the GRE but i have no proof of this. the gre was never brought up anywhere i went.

Thanx for the reply and i was wondering 1200 is cumulative of verbal and Mathematics or cumulative of all Three( Verbal, Mathematics, and Analytical as per the old system).
Thanks and I wish you all the best

International

 

[texas_dds]

im not sure when they switched it but 1200=quant + verbal, and then you get a score out of 6.0 on your writing samples.