Ortho residency and 4th yr away electives?

[drmedstudent]

My Stats:

3rd yr med student in US med school.
Average in my class (not AOA or top 1/3rd or anything like that)
Dont have high Pass or honors in Surgery......just Pass
Step 1: 231/99
Publications: 1 basic sci, 1 neurosurg case study
Projects: 1 basic sci, 1 neuro surg clinical, and i am looking for an Ortho clinical research at my med center

I am split between Ortho and Gen Surgery.......but i am more leaning towards Ortho

Question 1: What are my realistic expectations in matching into Ortho residency?

Question 2: What residency (and thus 4th yr elective) programs would be within my reach to apply for?


Obviously I am realistic and am not looking into going for the best Ortho program.....but I am willing to go anywhere in the country for residency (although I'd love to match back home in Dallas,TX)

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[perilou]

My Stats:

3rd yr med student in US med school.
Average in my class (not AOA or top 1/3rd or anything like that)
Dont have high Pass or honors in Surgery......just Pass
Step 1: 231/99
Publications: 1 basic sci, 1 neurosurg case study
Projects: 1 basic sci, 1 neuro surg clinical, and i am looking for an Ortho clinical research at my med center

I am split between Ortho and Gen Surgery.......but i am more leaning towards Ortho

Question 1: What are my realistic expectations in matching into Ortho residency?

Question 2: What residency (and thus 4th yr elective) programs would be within my reach to apply for?


Obviously I am realistic and am not looking into going for the best Ortho program.....but I am willing to go anywhere in the country for residency (although I'd love to match back home in Dallas,TX)

I am familiar with the Dallas program, and will say that without a rotation there, you're unlikely to interview/match there. They interview most rotators, and if that would be your #1 spot due to location, then I'd say a rotation is worth it. Otherwise I would rotate at lesser competitive programs.

As for overall competitiveness, I would say that you are slightly below average for applicants. I was surprised at how difficult it was to get interviews this year. You would likely be applying to >50 programs. Where is your school located? Programs hand out interviews with a major regional bias. If your applying to the East coast and have no ties, its unlikely you'll get many interviews there. Your chairman is in the best position to go through the programs individually and tell you where you're most competitive at.

Overall, I hate to sound so pessimistic. You definitely have a shot. You just have to play the game correctly - which in your case means applying to many programs, in your region, in your reach, and considering Gen Surg as a backup.

G'luck!

 

[kdburton]

Statistics-wise you are below average for matched applicants, but half of the people that match are below average, right? If you really want to do ortho then just apply very broadly (i.e. lots of super-star applicants that I talked to this year were applying to like 70+ programs). Orthogate.com is probably a better place to find information about specific programs that are worth taking a look at because everyone on there is ortho and ortho wannabes. With that said, I think that IN GENERAL many of the community programs are more likely to grant interviews to people that have below average stats when compared to some of the big academic programs. Just like most programs these ones are also keen on taking residents who rotated with them and worked hard. A couple places that I interviewed at that fit this description are Akron General and Mount Carmel in OH and potentially Orlando. I heard that this might be the case for Kalamazoo (MI) and Summa (OH) as well.

 

[Sam212]

There's also JPS which is right outside of Dallas

 

[drmedstudent]

There's also JPS which is right outside of Dallas

how competitive is JPS Hospital? i was considering that one

 

[Sam212]

how competitive is JPS Hospital? i was considering that one

Not sure, but I am guessing you'd have more of a chance there than Southwestern

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Every Ortho program is competitive; some just more so than others.

You have the stats to get in. You also have the stats to do a prelim year and wonder what to do with your life. There are no guarantees. There are no magic cutoffs above which you automatically match. Ortho is about teamwork, and getting beat down together. There are some crazy smart people out there doing prelims because they came across as someone you wouldn't want to be locked up with for 4 years. And there are some average or below-average residents who you know are as loyal as coonhounds and "ride for the brand".

If a bunch of random people on the internet stroking your ego is what it'd take for you to apply, you might as well work on your lap chole skills. The whole NRMP is so ****ing random; there is no way to give you odds on your success. But it'll be 0% if you don't apply.

 

[kissmyasthma99]

JPS is very competitive- - minimum 240 USMLE to rotate, and they pretty much only interview rotators. Wouldn't interview a 231 unless you had MAJOR ties. I'd look at other places. Southwestern - also extremely competitive. I'd look at less competitive community-based programs as mentioned above.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

JPS is very competitive- - minimum 240 USMLE to rotate, and they pretty much only interview rotators. Wouldn't interview a 231 unless you had MAJOR ties. I'd look at other places. Southwestern - also extremely competitive. I'd look at less competitive community-based programs as mentioned above.

While not completely false, pretty close. Rotated there with a guy that had somewhere around 215. They did ask me though, first question when I called to set up my away, "What's your Step 1?" Saw lots of people on interview day that I didn't recognize from rotating. Since their website doesn't yet have the 2015 class, have no idea who they ended up getting, but none from the month I was there.

 

[kissmyasthma99]

While not completely false, pretty close. Rotated there with a guy that had somewhere around 215. They did ask me though, first question when I called to set up my away, "What's your Step 1?" Saw lots of people on interview day that I didn't recognize from rotating. Since their website doesn't yet have the 2015 class, have no idea who they ended up getting, but none from the month I was there.

When did you rotate there? A few years ago? The raise in minimum Step 1 scores is a fairly recent thing. I am rotating there next year, and they told me it was a minimum 240 - that was from Dr. Wagner, the PD. Had to fax in my Step 1 scores before they would accept me as a rotator.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

When did you rotate there? A few years ago? The raise in minimum Step 1 scores is a fairly recent thing. I am rotating there next year, and they told me it was a minimum 240 - that was from Dr. Wagner, the PD. Had to fax in my Step 1 scores before they would accept me as a rotator.

Last year. 2009 technically...

 

[DoctaJay]

Question 1: What are my realistic expectations in matching into Ortho residency?

I"m sure that by now you have seen the 2009 Charting Outcomes document. If not here is the link:https://www.aamc.org/students/download/62400/data/chartingoutcomes.pdf. That document is a much more reliable source of what your chances are. With that being said, while charting outcomes says that you need about 13+ interviews to have a 95% chance of matching, I know a couple of folks who only got 6 interviews and matched.

Having the #s will get you the interviews. But actually matching is a much more complex issue. (Now take this with a grain of salt until I actually match next week, lol). From my away rotations and interviews I felt that being a regular guy, who is great to work with, a very hard worker, and not annoying, or cocky goes a long way to helping you to match. If you don't have the #s to get a bunch of interviews (which may be your case), then your away rotations will be key. First you need to chose away rotations that will maximize your success, and then when you get there, you need to blow it out the water.

So with that said, I would research what programs you might be interested in. For me, it was all about location. I felt that for the # of hours I would be working, I wanted to be close to my family and my wife's family. So I started looking at places near my home. Once you decided which programs you are interested in, then you need to figure out (by talking with residents at your home program, and searching on orthogate, orthopodmatch.com, and SDN) which programs interview ALL OF THEIR ROTATORS. It really hurts bad to spend 1 month at a program and they not offer you an interview. So make sure that you rotate at programs that guarantee rotators an interview. Once you have that list narrowed down, then talk with your home PD or a mentor to see if they have any connections at those programs and if they have any advice about which programs might be best for you. For instance, I was set on Georgetown to do an away until I talked with my PD and he let me know that our schools didn't have good histories with each other in terms of past applicants.

All in all, get advice from people you trust...not folks on SDN, but people you can look in the eye before you make your final decisions.

Question 2: What residency (and thus 4th yr elective) programs would be within my reach to apply for?

Like others said, there really are no safety ortho programs. There are less competitive programs, but even then you may not get interviews there due to regional bias or a flip of the coin. Now I don't know anything about the texas programs ( I did interview at 2 of them and like baylor the most) but besides that I can't advise you on that. With that said I can offer a list of programs that either may favor rotators heavily or may not be ridiculously competitive, but others will probably disagree with my list, just to show you how good most ortho programs are:

1. Wayne State: Just are rebuilding their program after splitting with DMC.
2. UCSF Fresno: brand new program...maybe be easier to get an interview here
3. Howard University
4. Atlanta Medical Center
5. UT Galveston
6. Georgetown: competitive but loves rotators
7. Monmouth Medical Center
8. Hamot
9. NYMC westchestor
10. Henry Ford
11. McLaren
12. Baylor
13. Northwestern: competitive but loves rotators

Like I said, all of these programs are good, and not safeties, but they either may favor rotators more, or may not be crazy competitive. If you are from Dallas, and want to head back there, definitely rotate there, and maybe a program in another region to hopefully increase your chances of matching. Just my .02

 

[perilou]

...they pretty much only interview rotators. Wouldn't interview a 231 unless you had MAJOR ties....

... The raise in minimum Step 1 scores is a fairly recent thing. I am rotating there next year...

You sound pretty sure of yourself for someone who hasn't rotated there yet. I have rotated & interviewed there, and the majority of interviewees on my interview day were non-rotators. They interviewed 35-40 people this year and probably had around 1/3 of that number rotate.

 

[kissmyasthma99]

You sound pretty sure of yourself for someone who hasn't rotated there yet. I have rotated & interviewed there, and the majority of interviewees on my interview day were non-rotators. They interviewed 35-40 people this year and probably had around 1/3 of that number rotate.

You're right, the interview pool is composed largely of non-rotators. I misunderstood. Talked to my buddy who is a resident there. What I understand is that if you rotate, you are guaranteed an interview. And - I was told by the PD, the lady who schedules rotations, and my friend that a minimum of 240 was required in order to rotate this year. I would imagine that the non-rotator interview pool was also composed of mainly 240+ people. That being said, I do know someone who matched there 3 years ago with a mid 230s USMLE, so it's not impossible. They interview 40 for 4 spots, and the rotators are guaranteed. This made me think that it was composed mainly of rotators. Mistake on my part. Thanks for clearing it up. Not trying to give the original poster bad information. I just understand how stressful this whole process can be, and I was trying to help him/her out. My final advice would probably be that with a 231, your chances of matching there are very slim. It is a very competitive program. However, if u are extremely interested in this program, you can contact the PD. He is extremely helpful and friendly. Also, he will be honest with you. Hope this helps. Good luck!

 

[Mr. Freeze]

I think it is perfectly reasonable to apply for a rotation with a 231. You never know, and if you just keep asking maybe they'll concede.

More importantly, I think OP needs to figure out if he wants to work with sh it tubes and bile sacs or bones and pus.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

With that being said, while charting outcomes says that you need about 13+ interviews to have a 95% chance of matching, I know a couple of folks who only got 6 interviews and matched.

I had 7.

 

[perilou]

I had 7.

This is off-topic, but your avatar is mesmerizing.

 

[drmedstudent]

My final advice would probably be that with a 231, your chances of matching there are very slim. It is a very competitive program. However, if u are extremely interested in this program, you can contact the PD. He is extremely helpful and friendly. Also, he will be honest with you. Hope this helps. Good luck!

I guess u may be just talking about JPS Hospital. but in general, if u look at the 2009 NRMP pg 167 under "Probability of Matching to Preferred Specialty by USMLE Step 1 Score"........with a score of 231, it says i have about 85% chance of matching.

is this an overrated number or one thats reasonable to believe?

 

[kissmyasthma99]

I guess u may be just talking about JPS Hospital. but in general, if u look at the 2009 NRMP pg 167 under "Probability of Matching to Preferred Specialty by USMLE Step 1 Score"........with a score of 231, it says i have about 85% chance of matching.

is this an overrated number or one thats reasonable to believe?

I was just talking about JPS. The only reason I said anything initially was because I haven't heard of anyone matching there with that score and aways are very important. I just thought he might be better served rotating a less competitive place to increase his chances of matching. That's all. If u look at the nationwide numbers, you still have a decent shot. The only reason I said anything is because I've looked at that program extensively. However, there are people on here that know far more about the program than me. Good luck OP.

 

[drmedstudent]

I was just talking about JPS. The only reason I said anything initially was because I haven't heard of anyone matching there with that score and aways are very important. I just thought he might be better served rotating a less competitive place to increase his chances of matching. That's all. If u look at the nationwide numbers, you still have a decent shot. The only reason I said anything is because I've looked at that program extensively. However, there are people on here that know far more about the program than me. Good luck OP.

where does JPS stand in terms of Ortho residency program ranking approximately? im guessing theres no really numbers out there in terms of its rank...but since u have done extensive research on JPS, whats ur opinion?

 

[kissmyasthma99]

where does JPS stand in terms of Ortho residency program ranking approximately? im guessing theres no really numbers out there in terms of its rank...but since u have done extensive research on JPS, whats ur opinion?

I am not sure about national ranking, but in my (3rd year medical student) opinion - it is a phenomenal program. They have a tremendous program director, early and often operative exposure, good didactics, good research, great attendings, and a great group of guys. I agree with many of the people who say that a ranking is not important, and that it is more important to find a program that you mesh well with and that has the qualities you are looking for in a residency. One guy's top choice might be another guys last and vice versa. Good luck!

 

[drmedstudent]

I am not sure about national ranking, but in my (3rd year medical student) opinion - it is a phenomenal program. They have a tremendous program director, early and often operative exposure, good didactics, good research, great attendings, and a great group of guys. I agree with many of the people who say that a ranking is not important, and that it is more important to find a program that you mesh well with and that has the qualities you are looking for in a residency. One guy's top choice might be another guys last and vice versa. Good luck!

thank you kissmyasthma99 for you thoughts. from what ive heard, its a great program also. only downside is that its a community hospital not a university based program. what are you thoughts on that?

does any1 else know about how JPS is or would like to share their thoughts?

 

[perilou]

thank you kissmyasthma99 for you thoughts. from what ive heard, its a great program also. only downside is that its a community hospital not a university based program. what are you thoughts on that?

does any1 else know about how JPS is or would like to share their thoughts?

Well, that's partially true. They are affiliated with UNTHSC, which has a DO program and now an MD program.

In my opinion, community-based is really only a problem because of the lack of University assisted research - and this is true of JPS. Their research is average. If you're wanting an academic career in your future, research is important (as is program name) and JPS probably isn't for you. You will perform research at JPS as it is an ACGME requirement for all orthopedic programs that residents complete a 'publishable' research project. It's just that the absolute number of research projects is less than other places, as well as big-name research docs. They see this, and actually have an MDPhD on faculty now that is hoping to work on this.

If going into private practice is what you're aiming for, JPS is phenomenal. The hospital is a level 1 trauma center, and the operative experience is among the best you'll find (but not to the point of slave labor).

 

[drmedstudent]

Well, that's partially true. They are affiliated with UNTHSC, which has a DO program and now an MD program.

In my opinion, community-based is really only a problem because of the lack of University assisted research - and this is true of JPS. Their research is average. If you're wanting an academic career in your future, research is important (as is program name) and JPS probably isn't for you. You will perform research at JPS as it is an ACGME requirement for all orthopedic programs that residents complete a 'publishable' research project. It's just that the absolute number of research projects is less than other places, as well as big-name research docs. They see this, and actually have an MDPhD on faculty now that is hoping to work on this.

If going into private practice is what you're aiming for, JPS is phenomenal. The hospital is a level 1 trauma center, and the operative experience is among the best you'll find (but not to the point of slave labor).

thank you perilou for sharing. eventually i would like to settle down to private practice. however first i would like to do a fellowship and maybe/maybe not a few yrs of academic experience.

do you think it would be difficult to get good fellowships coming out of JPS....or is it more important that how you do IN JPS counts (evals, research, work ethic,, whatever else they look for)?

also do you think private practice groups prefer hiring an attending coming from a university based residency vs. community hospital? or is that not even an issue? [i know im looking 6+yrs down the road...but just to have a heads up]

 

[perilou]

thank you perilou for sharing. eventually i would like to settle down to private practice. however first i would like to do a fellowship and maybe/maybe not a few yrs of academic experience.

do you think it would be difficult to get good fellowships coming out of JPS....or is it more important that how you do IN JPS counts (evals, research, work ethic,, whatever else they look for)?

also do you think private practice groups prefer hiring an attending coming from a university based residency vs. community hospital? or is that not even an issue? [i know im looking 6+yrs down the road...but just to have a heads up]

Never a bad idea to look to the future, I think. From what I've gleaned from speaking with higher up residents, applying to fellowship is not like applying to residency. Getting into an ortho residency is relatively difficult. Fellowships traditionally are not. That being said, JPS can get you into any fellowship field you want. Will you get that top coveted spot? Maybe not. Will you still be able to be the kind of doc you want? Yes.

And, as far as I'm aware, private groups don't put a lot of weight on university-based vs. community.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

Ability to get fellowships was one thing that concerned me about JPS. Probably unfounded, but I still wondered.

Residents have an incredible amount of autonomy there, particularly on trauma once the attendings are comfortable with your ability to perform a procedure. Not autonomy like the chief gets his own room, autonomy like 2's doing distal radii by themselves, with no attending in the room or a 2 & 3 doing DHS's by themselves, while attending surfs internet. Help is available, but I felt like it was a little hands-off for my taste. Felt like reps were too involved. I didn't want to learn from a rep, and there were instances that seemed that way.

They have an INCREDIBLE OR setup, with HUGE rooms that are videolinked to each other, so there is always an eye in the sky that may or may not be watching from the next room. Good when you are struggling a bit; can call into the attending's room and pick his brain while he stays scrubbed.

 

[GAdoc]

Ability to get fellowships was one thing that concerned me about JPS. Probably unfounded, but I still wondered.

Residents have an incredible amount of autonomy there, particularly on trauma once the attendings are comfortable with your ability to perform a procedure. Not autonomy like the chief gets his own room, autonomy like 2's doing distal radii by themselves, with no attending in the room or a 2 & 3 doing DHS's by themselves, while attending surfs internet. Help is available, but I felt like it was a little hands-off for my taste. Felt like reps were too involved. I didn't want to learn from a rep, and there were instances that seemed that way.

They have an INCREDIBLE OR setup, with HUGE rooms that are videolinked to each other, so there is always an eye in the sky that may or may not be watching from the next room. Good when you are struggling a bit; can call into the attending's room and pick his brain while he stays scrubbed.

My $0.02 concerning JPS: I go to school in GA and I interviewed at JPS. I did not rotate there (though I did have Step 1: 246). The program was exactly what I was looking for - smallish, great group of residents, all sub-specialties covered, no farming out residents, early operative experience, etc. I doubt you can find much better training and I ended up matching at a program that was very similar to theirs.

On my interview day, my understanding was they were interviewing about 15 students on each of their four days (about 60 total interviews for four slots). Not sure if that's changing - ortho is so competitive, I don't think they'd have trouble if they do change it.

As far as fellowships, I think they do fine. The brother-in-law of a guy in my class was a JPS ortho resident and got a spine fellowship at Cleveland Clinic, so yeah, they're legit. I don think rotating there is critical if you really want to match. Even if you're an all-star on paper, if you really plan to rank them high, you'd better at least do a 2nd look.

 

[drmedstudent]

thanks everyone for their input...

i had another question: since im considering general surgery as a back up (in case i dont get Ortho), and i have 3 slots to do electives (which will give me enough time to get 3LORs for residency applications)......do u think i should do all 3 in ortho at different places, or 2 in ortho and 1 in gen surg.

cuz say if i do all 3 in Ortho, would Gen Surg residencies that i apply to look at the fact that i did all Ortho electives and think that i only want to do Ortho.......and would that look bad in terms of getting spots in Gen Surg?

cuz if i dont get any Ortho spots, i dont wanna lose out on Gen Surg as well just cuz i didnt do any electives in gen surg....and not match anywhere

what do u think.......should i put all my eggs in one basket????

 

[GAdoc]

thanks everyone for their input...

i had another question: since im considering general surgery as a back up (in case i dont get Ortho), and i have 3 slots to do electives (which will give me enough time to get 3LORs for residency applications)......do u think i should do all 3 in ortho at different places, or 2 in ortho and 1 in gen surg.

cuz say if i do all 3 in Ortho, would Gen Surg residencies that i apply to look at the fact that i did all Ortho electives and think that i only want to do Ortho.......and would that look bad in terms of getting spots in Gen Surg?

cuz if i dont get any Ortho spots, i dont wanna lose out on Gen Surg as well just cuz i didnt do any electives in gen surg....and not match anywhere

what do u think.......should i put all my eggs in one basket????

I know this is a fine line and people have differing opinions...you have to be honest with yourself (which you have been) about your chances. But, you have to be careful not to plan to fail or it may become a self-fulfilling prophecy.

A lot of people use general surgery as a back-up and its good that they can see themselves doing both. I could not. The two fields are VERY different. Everything from the type of surgeries, to patient outcomes, to the type of patients, practice opportunities, lifestyle, compensation, etc. In my opinion, you need to start out by determining what you truly love.

Do you like the extremely fast-paced, trauma heavy, acute setting of general surgery, or the more laid back, often elective procedures that accompany ortho? Most people thrive on one or the other ,but not both.

If you decide general surgery is for you, go for it all out. Don't waste your time with ortho letters. If you decide you can't do anything other than ortho than go for that. You already know you need to shine on aways, Step 2, your remaining clerkships, etc but I think it can be done.

Good luck

 

[Mr. Freeze]

I just don't really know anyone ortho-wise that would fit as a gen surgeon. Agree, they are SO different. Unless you would be ok with being a gen surgeon, putting it on your ranklist is dicey. A prelim yr MAYBE. Not a categorical spot. And I wouldn't do an away in it either. If I didn't match ortho I would scramble for a GS prelim.

But mostly because I would go back to my old 35K/yr job and eat my debt before I ever did anything but ortho, and would probably just cap myself if I couldn't do that and was looking at being a gen surgeon.

Glad there are people willing to it, I'm just definitely not one of them.

 

[perilou]

Keep in mind that even g-surg is no guaranteed thing. A quick glance at the post-match g-surg forum posts shows that.

 

[Raygun77]

OP: Ruled out neurosurg did we?

 

[drmedstudent]

OP: Ruled out neurosurg did we?

yup neurosurg ruled out for sure.

i really like ortho...much more than gen surg. but i gotta have it as back up. thats y im thinking of dedicating one elective for it (do u think i can get by with no gen surg and all ortho electives....for applying to gen surg spots)?

since i have a Pass (not high pass or honors) in all 3rd yr clerkships including Surgery...and with my score 231, do u think my chances are low for Ortho? i do have a lot of research (1 basic sci w/ midauthor publication, 4 general surgery research...1 publication already...hopefully 1-2 more submissions by end of this yr)...i dont have any Ortho research tho. will try for one later in the yr (wanna focus on other projects). but i think it shouldnt matter as long as im doing surgery research (rite??)

 

[DHT]

My advice if I were in your position:

If you like ortho "much more than gen surg" then right now you need to dedicate all your time to thinking about matching ortho. Forget about GSurg as a back up all together. Get involved in an ortho project and have at least an abstract submitted by the time you interview. Almost every place you rotate will ask about your ortho research to make sure you can talk intelligently about what you did. Also, start thinking about how your GSurg research may be applicable to the world of ortho and how the skills/lessons learned in that research will help you in your future career as an orthopod.

Because of your below average step 1 and P in surgery, I would expect many places to ask you about back up plans. The answer is NOT "GSurg." The answer is that there is no back up. Its ortho or nothing and if you don't match you will do a research year and try again.

A very strong letter from your home program or programs that you rotate at can make up for a lot of deficiencies. Work hard on your home rotation and have a good attitude.

Do as many away rotations as you can. Someone with your scores could match at a very good program with a great rotation (Even HSS has their share of 230s). But be careful because rotations can be a double edged sword because its really easy to screw up when you are sleep deprived and make someone not like you. So always work hard, be positive, and don't complain. Having a good attitude is the most important thing we look for in rotators.

Pick rotations at programs you want to go to. If I were in your position I could consider a few things. Look at how many people rotate there. You are much less likely to stand out and your rotation is less likely to help you at programs that have 80-100 rotators. Programs that only allow 2-4 per month would probably give you the greatest chance of standing out (but do NOT NOT NOT back stab or try to show up your co-rotators).

GenSurg research is not as good as ortho research but it is good that you are at least doing something. Interviewers will be more interested in and be able to talk more about ortho research and for that reason I would try and start an ortho project now (but might be too late). If you do get involved, make sure you follow through with what you commit to because saying you'll do something and then not do it will definitely hurt you in the eyes of whoever you are working with.

If you are serious about ortho then you need to get your head in the game. Right now you sound very wishywashy and that attitude will not allow you to match ortho. Every year people with worse stats than you match at programs that they thought were out of their league. Don't focus so much on why you can't match ortho and just accept the deficiencies in your application and move forward and figure out what you can do to strengthen it.

Hope some of this helps

 

[perilou]

My advice if I were in your position:

If you like ortho "much more than gen surg" then right now you need to dedicate all your time to thinking about matching ortho. Forget about GSurg as a back up all together. Get involved in an ortho project and have at least an abstract submitted by the time you interview. Almost every place you rotate will ask about your ortho research to make sure you can talk intelligently about what you did. Also, start thinking about how your GSurg research may be applicable to the world of ortho and how the skills/lessons learned in that research will help you in your future career as an orthopod.

Because of your below average step 1 and P in surgery, I would expect many places to ask you about back up plans. The answer is NOT "GSurg." The answer is that there is no back up. Its ortho or nothing and if you don't match you will do a research year and try again.

A very strong letter from your home program or programs that you rotate at can make up for a lot of deficiencies. Work hard on your home rotation and have a good attitude.

Do as many away rotations as you can. Someone with your scores could match at a very good program with a great rotation (Even HSS has their share of 230s). But be careful because rotations can be a double edged sword because its really easy to screw up when you are sleep deprived and make someone not like you. So always work hard, be positive, and don't complain. Having a good attitude is the most important thing we look for in rotators.

Pick rotations at programs you want to go to. If I were in your position I could consider a few things. Look at how many people rotate there. You are much less likely to stand out and your rotation is less likely to help you at programs that have 80-100 rotators. Programs that only allow 2-4 per month would probably give you the greatest chance of standing out (but do NOT NOT NOT back stab or try to show up your co-rotators).

GenSurg research is not as good as ortho research but it is good that you are at least doing something. Interviewers will be more interested in and be able to talk more about ortho research and for that reason I would try and start an ortho project now (but might be too late). If you do get involved, make sure you follow through with what you commit to because saying you'll do something and then not do it will definitely hurt you in the eyes of whoever you are working with.

If you are serious about ortho then you need to get your head in the game. Right now you sound very wishywashy and that attitude will not allow you to match ortho. Every year people with worse stats than you match at programs that they thought were out of their league. Don't focus so much on why you can't match ortho and just accept the deficiencies in your application and move forward and figure out what you can do to strengthen it.

Hope some of this helps

Very nice post.

I agree with this post, but think it may be a bit late for starting an ortho research project.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

DHT is spot on. Aspiring orthopods don't have back-up plans.

Think of it like asking an extremely hot, out-of-your-league model neighbor on a date using the following: "Hey I'm really into you and I think we could make some magic happen this Friday night. Pick you up around 7? Just so you know though, I also have a date with the homely chick down the street, you know, the one with the lazy eye and the snaggle-teeth, at 8ish. Just in case. Whaddya say?"

C'mon dude. **** or get off the pot.

 

[kdburton]

Very nice post.

I agree with this post, but think it may be a bit late for starting an ortho research project.

I disagree. I did a project in the end of 3rd year (beginning around this time last year) and had abstracts submitted to ORS and AJSM before my interviews. I had something to intelligently talk about during interviews and I matched in ortho with that one single ortho research project. At the very least try to jump on a project that a resident in your program is working on. You don't necessarily need to have published a paper, but you need something on your ERAS for interviewers to ask you about because several interviews i went on had a Research Room where all their questions were about your research. If you didn't do any they don't have any questions to ask you...

 

[drmedstudent]

My advice if I were in your position:

If you like ortho "much more than gen surg" then right now you need to dedicate all your time to thinking about matching ortho. Forget about GSurg as a back up all together. Get involved in an ortho project and have at least an abstract submitted by the time you interview. Almost every place you rotate will ask about your ortho research to make sure you can talk intelligently about what you did. Also, start thinking about how your GSurg research may be applicable to the world of ortho and how the skills/lessons learned in that research will help you in your future career as an orthopod.

Because of your below average step 1 and P in surgery, I would expect many places to ask you about back up plans. The answer is NOT "GSurg." The answer is that there is no back up. Its ortho or nothing and if you don't match you will do a research year and try again.

A very strong letter from your home program or programs that you rotate at can make up for a lot of deficiencies. Work hard on your home rotation and have a good attitude.

Do as many away rotations as you can. Someone with your scores could match at a very good program with a great rotation (Even HSS has their share of 230s). But be careful because rotations can be a double edged sword because its really easy to screw up when you are sleep deprived and make someone not like you. So always work hard, be positive, and don't complain. Having a good attitude is the most important thing we look for in rotators.

Pick rotations at programs you want to go to. If I were in your position I could consider a few things. Look at how many people rotate there. You are much less likely to stand out and your rotation is less likely to help you at programs that have 80-100 rotators. Programs that only allow 2-4 per month would probably give you the greatest chance of standing out (but do NOT NOT NOT back stab or try to show up your co-rotators).

GenSurg research is not as good as ortho research but it is good that you are at least doing something. Interviewers will be more interested in and be able to talk more about ortho research and for that reason I would try and start an ortho project now (but might be too late). If you do get involved, make sure you follow through with what you commit to because saying you'll do something and then not do it will definitely hurt you in the eyes of whoever you are working with.

If you are serious about ortho then you need to get your head in the game. Right now you sound very wishywashy and that attitude will not allow you to match ortho. Every year people with worse stats than you match at programs that they thought were out of their league. Don't focus so much on why you can't match ortho and just accept the deficiencies in your application and move forward and figure out what you can do to strengthen it.

Hope some of this helps

thanks for your insight. could u suggest any places i should do my electives.....less competitive place with fewer students rotating where i have a good chance of matching. im looking on VSAS but i cant find number of students rotating per elective, or the rank of institute. i need to get this ball rolling by April 1 so any advice would b helpful

 

[perilou]

thanks for your insight. could u suggest any places i should do my electives.....less competitive place with fewer students rotating where i have a good chance of matching. im looking on VSAS but i cant find number of students rotating per elective, or the rank of institute. i need to get this ball rolling by April 1 so any advice would b helpful

I think DoctaJay gave a good list up above. See which of those programs appeals to you and apply!

 

[::Seabass::]

Maybe I missed it in one of the posts, but take Step 2 early and kill it. And have very strong rotations at well picked locations and you will have a great chance of matching. med students at my residency do it every year with step 1 scores less than yours.