Ortho resident satisfaction

[pocket aces]

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I'm looking to apply to ortho this year and was wondering whether any residents could comment (good or bad) on student life, student/faculty relations and the general vibes at their respective programs? Thanks...

 

[texas_dds]

i can say that the U of Washington gets A+ in all three areas you mentioned. plus you get to live in Seattle. it is a program that prepares you to be a very careful orthodontist who will not be swayed by pseudo science.

 

[vorosvirag]

i can say that the U of Washington gets A+ in all three areas you mentioned. plus you get to live in Seattle. it is a program that prepares you to be a very careful orthodontist who will not be swayed by pseudo science.

What do you mean by pseudo science?

Very little in the orthodontic literature is grounded in randomized controlled trials. Everyone in private practice seems to do what works. And everyone does things a different way.

Kokich and the rest of your Seattle crew may control your opinions for now, but I'm guessing you'll start to see that we know very little in absolute terms about many areas of orthodontics.

There are many ways to skin a cat. It's the outcome that's important--not so much the route you take. And that outcome is based nearly as much in art as it is in science, engineering, and biomechanics.

Look forward to hearing your thoughts.

 

[zoothslooth]

If you could keep the bantering to a minimum, I too am interested in resident satisfaction. Thank you texas_dds. Any other residents with some insight would be muchly appreciated.

 

[Bodega Do Luiz]

If you could keep the bantering to a minimum, I too am interested in resident satisfaction. Thank you texas_dds. Any other residents with some insight would be muchly appreciated.

"bantering" is an excellent form of discussion among professionals. It's a great way to see others' points of views when perhaps you've had blinders impeding your view from the other side of the fence. Please don't ever keep the bantering to a minimum.

 

[Jaybe]

What do you mean by pseudo science?

Kokich and the rest of your Seattle crew may control your opinions for now, but I'm guessing you'll start to see that we know very little in absolute terms about many areas of orthodontics.

Is this intended to be some sort of insult?

I can think of many worse "crews" to have as mentors than the Kokich/Seattle crew.

 

[vorosvirag]

"bantering" is an excellent form of discussion among professionals. It's a great way to see others' points of views when perhaps you've had blinders impeding your view from the other side of the fence. Please don't ever keep the bantering to a minimum.

Thanks, Bodega.

I'm trying to understand where our Seattle orthodontist is coming from. I have heard some things about UW, but like to know what he means by "careful" orthodontist and others' reliance on pseudo science. All of this (hearing his explanations) should help others shape their opinions of the program in Washington.

I hate to burst anyone's bubble. However, here's my opinion on this: "student life, student/faculty relations and the general vibes." If you're able to match at all programs and the only thing you're considering is the student life and program vibes, you're one exceptional candidate. For most of us, we discovered that to match is a blessing. Getting in anywhere with any group was worthwhile. Some may have matched at his/her #1 spot, but many of us were willing to go anywhere. We started out thinking we'd create a huge spread sheet of likes/dislikes. By the end of the interview trail we were fairly content to just get a spot.

Don't worry, you'll likely have good co-residents. A lot of getting along is playing as a team. You can do that about anywhere with anyone if you're flexible. I can't say I've heard fellow ortho resident friends say, "Yeah, at program XYZ the residents are mean to each other and don't ever get along." I'm not sure there's a program like that. I think most residents tend to pull together to make life easier for each other. A few odd ducks are out there, but that's the exception.

What I feel you should concern yourself with is whether you have the independence and ability to try forsus springs, miniscrews, lasers, and other newer stuff. You should also try self-ligation or even what some consider the epitome of "pseudo science" like Damon brackets (gasp!). From what I understand Vince Kokich and many other life-time academics absolutely abhor Damon, but seem to forget about everyone else is throwing incisors forward, using fixed retention, expanding intercanine widths, as well.

Experiment while you can, draw your own conclusions with the help of some balanced instructors (part-timers seem to have their act together more completely than the full-time folks), and develop a winning philosophy you can live (and make $) with.

In my opinion, your co-residents are rarely the problem. It's the grander system you find yourself a part of that brings on your greater challenges.

 

[vorosvirag]

Is this intended to be some sort of insult?

I can think of many worse "crews" to have as mentors than the Kokich/Seattle crew.

Perhaps I should have substituted "crew" with group. No deep offense intended.

I recognize that Kokich and likely many others at UW are able educators. No doubt about it. My broader point is that they may limit you with their "careful" methods and rigid philosophies.

Three years ago, a friend of mine interviewed at UW and asked Vince why they didn't do self-ligation or miniscrews (many other schools were already implementing these products into their clinics). V. Kokich stated emphatically something to this effect: "This is the University of Washington. We're evidence based and will implement changes when the science is there."

They can take whatever approach and proceed with whatever speed they want in Seattle. However, many other reputable programs had innovated by then. That's my point. There's value in adapting slowly in some cases. Conversely, there's something lost by being overly rigid and denying your residents independence and flexibility.

The majority of long-denied new grads are going to experiment once they complete training, so why not create an environment that allows them to try the current methods, etc.? One is also saved the time and $ it requires to attend lots of continuing ed following graduation to see if certain things are agreeable to you.

I'm still curious about what texas_dds means by pseudo science.

 

[texas_dds]

really, I am not offended. having world class mentors is something that i am very proud of. i've found that people who poke at me for that are typically jealous. what i meant by avoiding pseudo science is something that happens AFTER you are out of school and have to think for yourself. all on your own, you have to know how to steer clear of slick marketing and claims that lack one shred of evidence. i think being aware of biological limitations is something that you SHOULD get out of your residency, and i feel that i was served well in that respect.

 

[texas_dds]

Also we did miniscrews and self ligation, and Dr K. doesn't interview prospective students.

 

[vorosvirag]

Also we did miniscrews and self ligation, and Dr K. doesn't interview prospective students.

Following Kokich's lecture at the Denver AAO, my friend told me that story. Either my friend was telling stories or Vince did interview him 3 years ago.

 

[vorosvirag]

really, I am not offended. having world class mentors is something that i am very proud of. i've found that people who poke at me for that are typically jealous.

I wasn't "poking" at you. You'll find I choose random nouns from time to time. Rarely do people care if I select crew, posse, or group. You guys are a bit sensitive tonight.

No jealousy, here, amigo. You brought up Seattle and I brought up some questions about your statements. Pretty simple.

what i meant by avoiding pseudo science is something that happens AFTER you are out of school and have to think for yourself.

Just curious. Are you out of residency?

all on your own, you have to know how to steer clear of slick marketing and claims that lack one shred of evidence.

Tell me what company doesn't use slick marketing. In the end, virtually all reps primarily care about making a sale. Reps may spin, but they all want to make their marketing the slickest possible. If they have evidence on their side, it doesn't matter if it doesn't sell. If they don't have evidence, they still need to pay the bills.

All programs preach that evidence-based orthodontics is the standard. I believe in following the evidence insofar as it's possible and practical in the real world. As I said earlier, so much of ortho is anecdotal and based on what's been always done. For example, we provide Hawleys (and scribble down our favorite design) because they work fine--not because it's been scientifically proven to be superior to all other retainers. The same goes for adhesives, wires, impression materials, and most of the rest of the stuff we use.

"That's just what we use. It works well in my hands." Ask a practicing orthodontist and that's most often what you'll hear. If something is demonstrably superior I believe we should conform and use that material. Yet, if some other alternative gets you to the chosen end point and is slightly cheaper a lot of orthodontists will go with that one. So, in the end evidence is only a small part of the practical, real-world orthodontist's equation.

i think being aware of biological limitations is something that you SHOULD get out of your residency, and i feel that i was served well in that respect.

Nobody is arguing with you on that. We all need to be aware of such limitations. All residents that I'm aware of hear all about that. It's on boards. All conscientious orthodontists trying to finish well will practice with care. Your original statements had the ring of exceptionalism in this area.

For your information, UW may have the best location and best faculty/student vibe levels; yet, be clear that UW does not have a monopoly on training careful orthodontists who reject pseudo science.

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[texas_dds]

Just curious. Are you out of residency? yes 🙂

I am not singling out any marketing campaign - I'm just saying its an important thing for an orthodontic resident to be grounded in what the evidence does provide.

I know many fantastic scientists and clinicians from all over the planet, not just Seattle, so I make no claim of superiority. Im just saying good things about the only program I know of up close.
To get back to the original thread question - quality of life, relations, etc. can be great anywhere. Being an orthodontic resident is great, and it only gets better afterwards.

 

[charlestweed]

Being an orthodontic resident is great, and it only gets better afterwards.

I completely agree with this statement.