Orthopedic Surgery and HPSP

[AverageGuy15]

My ultimate goal is to become an orthopedic surgeon and from what I have found...the army has about 19 ortho residencies, navy has 11 and AF has 4.
(http://www.militarygme.org/4.html)

Therefore I am learning towards the army simply because they have the largest number of residencies. Does anyone know how many people get accepted into each branch's program per year?

If the army takes way more then the other two then my logic clearly does not hold up.

Also in terms of payback time (please someone correct me if I am wrong) for a 4 year scholarship and then a 5 year ortho residency, I would owe 5 years active duty and 3 years reserve duty or would my time as a resident count as reserve duty?

Thanks!

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[NavyFP]

My ultimate goal is to become an orthopedic surgeon and from what I have found...the army has about 19 ortho residencies, navy has 11 and AF has 4.
(http://www.militarygme.org/4.html)

Therefore I am learning towards the army simply because they have the largest number of residencies. Does anyone know how many people get accepted into each branch's program per year?

If the army takes way more then the other two then my logic clearly does not hold up.

Also in terms of payback time (please someone correct me if I am wrong) for a 4 year scholarship and then a 5 year ortho residency, I would owe 5 years active duty and 3 years reserve duty or would my time as a resident count as reserve duty?

Thanks!

The Army does take the most at about 375 (+/-) , Navy was 270 (all med school programs) and AF was about 240.

In any service, ortho is competitive. I don't know the absolute numbers, but I would guess they are on a par with the Navy at 2apps for every position.

Assuming you did your residency straight through and in the service, you would owe 4 years post residency. Ortho is intern year(neutral) + 4 years of residency (owe 4). That time is served concurrently with your HPSP, so you would only owe 4. Since your total active time would be 9 years, your IRR commitment is up and you owe nothing else.

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

If ortho is your only goal to the exclusion of everything else, I would suggest that you not join the military. There are only so many ortho residency spots, and has been mentioned previously, these spots are very popular amongst the high-speed prior service crowd.

The military does not care that you want to be an orthopod. If you get beat for those spots, your options are to complete a different residency, hang out as a GMO while applying for a military ortho spot, or repaying your commitment as a GMO and applying for a civilian ortho spot. The civilian world has drastically more ortho residencies (especially when you consider community programs as well as university programs) and presents a better chance to match into the specialty.

Military medicine is the right choice for those whose desire to serve as a military physician is stronger that the desire to match to a specific specialty, work in certain geographic locations, or adhere to a specific training timeline. There is the possibility that the military's needs will conflict with your desires, and the military always wins. The people who do not understand this end up as bitter GMOs who bide their time until they GTFO or as bitter people training in a second choice specialty.

Do the research and decide what is best for you.

 

[AverageGuy15]

Thank you both for the replies!

Has anyone ever known someone who failed to match for a desired residency and was forced into another by the military?

From what I have read it seems the military rarely allows people to match for civilian residencies if they fail to get one they like in a military medical center.

Is that fair to say?

Maybe the FAP program would be a better fit for me. I would love to serve my country but don't know if I am willing to sacrifice my desired career choice to do so...

 

[Ziehl-Neelsen]

Thank you both for the replies!

Has anyone ever known someone who failed to match for a desired residency and was forced into another by the military?

From what I have read it seems the military rarely allows people to match for civilian residencies if they fail to get one they like in a military medical center.

Is that fair to say?

Maybe the FAP program would be a better fit for me. I would love to serve my country but don't know if I am willing to sacrifice my desired career choice to do so...

I don't mean to discourage you. I am good friends with a number of the orthopods. They fit the orth stereotype but are uniformly smart and good guys. If you are an intelligent individual who does well in medical school and shines on audition rotations, things will most likely work out and you will get a spot. The military match has a funny way of working out relatively well with even numbers of students applying across the board for all specialties. However, there is the rare year where a significant cohort of students want a single residency leading to a wildly competetive match. For example, in my year ENT was the specialty du jour, with 3 applicants for each spot. It also works the other way, last year there were not enough applicants for all the derm spots, and some spots went unfilled.


The military has projections of how many residents in each specialty they need to train to meet requirements. If theyt need more residents in a certain specialty than the military has spots, they offer deferments in that specialty to civillian residencies. There is almost alwys a need for more orthopods in the Army thatn the Army can train, so in my year I know of at least 2-3 residents who were granted deferments. These individuals were competetive enough to match in civilian residencies.

Thus, things will most likely work out. But my med school class had 1-2 guys with very mediocre grades, middling class rank, and 210 step I scores who were still gung-ho for ortho. These guys matched at low-prestige community programs whereas they most likely would have had no chance to match in the Army. There are simply more civilian ortho spots, and while some of those spots are at questionable programs (my MEDCENs program is stellar by the way) they are still spots where one has a chance to match.

The Army does not force anyone to do any residency. One is required only to complete internship. Some people who don't get their residency of choice fulfill their obligation as GMOs and match to the civilian residency of choice. Others complete GMO tours while continually applying for their dream residency until they are accepted. Still others are told by program directors that they will never get said residency and apply for a 2nd choice residency. My specialty is one that is commonly perceived to be less demanding and easy and so ends up with lackluster residents who go on to give the specialty a bad name.

 

[Galo]

Thank you both for the replies!

Has anyone ever known someone who failed to match for a desired residency and was forced into another by the military?

From what I have read it seems the military rarely allows people to match for civilian residencies if they fail to get one they like in a military medical center.

Is that fair to say?

Maybe the FAP program would be a better fit for me. I would love to serve my country but don't know if I am willing to sacrifice my desired career choice to do so...

I agree with what you've been told. If you can't see yourself doing anything but ortho, stay away from military medicine. FAP is a choice, but ultimately, if you become an orthopod with good civilian training, you will always be able to join as a physician if serving your country is what you want to do.

 

[tatstyl]

I agree with what you've been told. If you can't see yourself doing anything but ortho, stay away from military medicine. FAP is a choice, but ultimately, if you become an orthopod with good civilian training, you will always be able to join as a physician if serving your country is what you want to do.

I might just be ignorant, but can someone apply in the military and in the civilian at the same time?
So if I don't match with the military but match outside, I can be trained in the civilian world then come back after the residency to pay back my time.

 

[Jolie South]

I might just be ignorant, but can someone apply in the military and in the civilian at the same time?
So if I don't match with the military but match outside, I can be trained in the civilian world then come back after the residency to pay back my time.

This is my limited understanding of how it works:

If you are HPSP, the military decides through their match whether or not you can train in the specialty that you want. Then, they decide if you will train military or civilian.

It won't matter if you match civilian if you don't get selected for your specialty. They own you. You'll do an intern year and a GMO tour, then have the opportunity to apply for residency again.

 

[AFDuck]

For clarification purposes with regard to ortho residency spots in the USAF, it is true that their are only 4 spots in AF gme (in San Antonio). However, this year the the total number of ortho positions available to applicants in the AF match is 15, 11 of these spots being deferred to the civilian match. There are also 1 or 2 spots in several ortho fellowship spots being offered.

 

[tatstyl]

This is my limited understanding of how it works:

If you are HPSP, the military decides through their match whether or not you can train in the specialty that you want. Then, they decide if you will train military or civilian.

It won't matter if you match civilian if you don't get selected for your specialty. They own you. You'll do an intern year and a GMO tour, then have the opportunity to apply for residency again.

Hey, where do you get all this information? Do you have a link or any reference?
since I read you, I've been having high BP. I don't understand why they will rather have you there doing nothing (GMO) than letting you do your residency. they are not even loosing for money.

 

[TheGoose]

. I don't understand why they will rather have you there doing nothing (GMO) than letting you do your residency. they are not even loosing for money.

If they decide that they only need 10 orthopods in training each year, then allowing any training more than that 10 is indeed a waste of their money. I also think a lot of people would be offended at the suggestion that a GMO is "having you there doing nothing". It's important work

 

[Jolie South]

Hey, where do you get all this information? Do you have a link or any reference?
since I read you, I've been having high BP. I don't understand why they will rather have you there doing nothing (GMO) than letting you do your residency. they are not even loosing for money.

Do some more searches and read the stickied HPSP threads. There is more than enough info on this forum.

 

[tatstyl]

If they decide that they only need 10 orthopods in training each year, then allowing any training more than that 10 is indeed a waste of their money. I also think a lot of people would be offended at the suggestion that a GMO is "having you there doing nothing". It's important work

When I said "having you there doing nothing," I meant the years you will spend as GMO will not count toward your residency. whenever you start the actual residency, no one will cut some years out because you were GMO. In that sense, I thing GMOs are wasted years. Sorry if someone gets offended by my statement; I did not mean to.