Osteopathic Distinctiveness

[Dharma]

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In your opinion, how important is it to maintain so-called "osteopathic distinctiveness?"

 

[SurgeDO]

In your opinion, how important is it to maintain so-called "osteopathic distinctiveness?"

probably one of the least important things in my entire life.

i care more about the Dr before my name than the DO or MD after my name.

 

[primadonna22274]

Not important at all. Old-school thinking which hinders any real progress in GME and postgraduate education.

 

[NeuroLAX]

Zero importance.

 

[QuackaDO]

I'd honestly be surprised if you get more than 5% to say that it's Very important or even slightly important. The ONLY people who this is important to is the AOA/AACOM board members that would lose their jobs/board positions if this merger went through. It's time that these boards that so called "represent us" actually did that and followed what the majority wished for. Eff the AOA board.

 

[Dharma]

I guess I should state my opinion as well:

It's important that we have equal access to training, licensing, employment, etc. That should always take precedence.

As far as the practice of osteopathic medicine goes, from my own limited experience, I also find that there are certain OMM techniques that could help our patients, when in the hands of a skilled practitioner. (I find that some ME techniques- and I do not like that phrasing because it makes it sound too quacky- are effective). Good medicine is good medicine, period. If something works, then it should be a part of a physician's arsenal to treat his patient, regardless of credentials. But if it's hocus pocus, it needs to be thrown back in the box with blood letting.

While I find the 4 tenets of osteopathic medicine to be a vital guide in one's practice (including one's personal health), I do not think they are unique to the osteopathic profession and in no one way serve to create a distinction, except between that of a varying qualities of physicians in general.

Also, I believe it is good to understand (to a degree) and respect the history of the profession, but without clinging onto the past or making decisions in the present based on scenarios that have long gone. We live. We learn. Sometimes we screw up before we learn, but then we move forward. If political bodies chose not to do so, then it's up to us to voice our opinions and then move forward ourselves.

 

[QuackaDO]

I guess I should state my opinion as well:

It's important that we have equal access to training, licensing, employment, etc. That should always take precedence.

As far as the practice of osteopathic medicine goes, from my own limited experience, I also find that there are certain OMM techniques that could help our patients, when in the hands of a skilled practitioner. (I find that some ME techniques- and I do not like that phrasing because it makes it sound too quacky- are effective). Good medicine is good medicine, period. If something works, then it should be a part of a physician's arsenal to treat his patient, regardless of credentials. But if it's hocus pocus, it needs to be thrown back in the box with blood letting.

While I find the 4 tenets of osteopathic medicine to be a vital guide in one's practice (including one's personal health), I do not think they are unique to the osteopathic profession and in no one way serve to create a distinction, except between that of a varying qualities of physicians in general.

Also, I believe it is good to understand (to a degree) and respect the history of the profession, but without clinging onto the past or making decisions in the present based on scenarios that have long gone. We live. We learn. Sometimes we screw up before we learn, but then we move forward. If political bodies chose not to do so, then it's up to us to voice our opinions and then move forward ourselves.

Since there's a lack of a facebookish "like" button....

 

[HoboCommander]

I'd rather have MD after my name instead of DO just to avoid confusion. Even if my job is pure OMM specialist I'd want the MD.

 

[Superman DO]

The written ideology of the osteopathic profession may be distinct; however, in reality, many of the MD physicians that I train with also practice a holistic approach to patients. The only difference is our manipulation skills which are not even practiced throughout the entirety of the profession. Furthermore, how can the AOA claim to want to preserve "osteopathic distinctiveness" when even during most clinical rotations, I am mentored by MD physicians.

Now, I do not hate the degree I will be receiving in May, nor do I think we need to abolish the degree altogether. Remember, there are many DOs in the past that fought to protect and propitiate rights of osteopathic profession, and the historical advancements should be honored, not just thrown away. However, the distinctiveness of the profession, or the manipulation aspect, can still be carried on with the unified accreditation of residencies. I do not think the ACGME would disallow the use of manipulation for DO residents who would want to use it. Furthermore, there is no reason why MDs should not be allowed to learn the modalities of OMM to gain access to particular residency programs. In fact, would not allowing our MD counterparts to learn OMM skills further the field of osteopathic medicine?

Now, I do disagree that OMM can be learned with just a couple of weekend sessions. It took me a few weeks just to be able to palpate with certainty the structures of the spine! Even now, I would only consider myself a Jedi knight of OMM after three years of study and not necessarily a master. Nonetheless, there is no reason why electives in OMM cannot be offered somehow to MD students wishing to enter into traditional DO residencies if they were to be accredited by the ACGME, but should be more than just crash course.

Currently, many osteopathic residencies are sub-par, and and these residencies do nothing to help our distinctiveness as a profession and actually downgrade the degree. Our ideals of the profession can still be preserved in working with the ACGME while allowing for highest standards of GME and a more unified,streamlined process to residency.

 

[NurWollen]

The written ideology of the osteopathic profession may be distinct; however, in reality, many of the MD physicians that I train with also practice a holistic approach to patients. The only difference is our manipulation skills which are not even practiced throughout the entirety of the profession. Furthermore, how can the AOA claim to want to preserve "osteopathic distinctiveness" when even during most clinical rotations, I am mentored by MD physicians.

Now, I do not hate the degree I will be receiving in May, nor do I think we need to abolish the degree altogether. Remember, there are many DOs in the past that fought to protect and propitiate rights of osteopathic profession, and the historical advancements should be honored, not just thrown away. However, the distinctiveness of the profession, or the manipulation aspect, can still be carried on with the unified accreditation of residencies. I do not think the ACGME would disallow the use of manipulation for DO residents who would want to use it. Furthermore, there is no reason why MDs should not be allowed to learn the modalities of OMM to gain access to particular residency programs. In fact, would not allowing our MD counterparts to learn OMM skills further the field of osteopathic medicine?

Now, I do disagree that OMM can be learned with just a couple of weekend sessions. It took me a few weeks just to be able to palpate with certainty the structures of the spine! Even now, I would only consider myself a Jedi knight of OMM after three years of study and not necessarily a master. Nonetheless, there is no reason why electives in OMM cannot be offered somehow to MD students wishing to enter into traditional DO residencies if they were to be accredited by the ACGME, but should be more than just crash course.

Currently, many osteopathic residencies are sub-par, and and these residencies do nothing to help our distinctiveness as a profession and actually downgrade the degree. Our ideals of the profession can still be preserved in working with the ACGME while allowing for highest standards of GME and a more unified,streamlined process to residency.

X 10000

 

[JRjcu08]

Didn't "separate but equal" get thrown out in the 1960s?

 

[willen101383]

Although I may go to the most "allo" DO school, I would say 80% of my class doesnt see themselves as different than any MD student. We are training in a city with 4 other allo schools. We share rotation sites with them. We share attendings with them. I have never once seen any of my DO attendings use OMM in practice. There is really very little distinction left. And the distinction is not one that I want: having to prove you are just as good as MD students. Having to fight harder for an ACGME residency on the basis of your degree (even though I have passed and done well on USMLE 1,2). Again, not a distinction I want.

The AOA doesnt represent me, and doesnt represent the majority of DO graduates/students nationwide. They represent themselves and a small minority of OMM practitioners. The end. They couldnt care less what we say, because at the end of the day we will still be sending them membership dues whether we like it or not. Truly a sickening organization.

 

[QuackaDO]

Although I may go to the most "allo" DO school, I would say 80% of my class doesnt see themselves as different than any MD student. We are training in a city with 4 other allo schools. We share rotation sites with them. We share attendings with them. I have never once seen any of my DO attendings use OMM in practice. There is really very little distinction left. And the distinction is not one that I want: having to prove you are just as good as MD students. Having to fight harder for an ACGME residency on the basis of your degree (even though I have passed and done well on USMLE 1,2). Again, not a distinction I want.

The AOA doesnt represent me, and doesnt represent the majority of DO graduates/students nationwide. They represent themselves and a small minority of OMM practitioners. The end. They couldnt care less what we say, because at the end of the day we will still be sending them membership dues whether we like it or not. Truly a sickening organization.

While reading your post I had a thought come to me and I hope I'm able to articulate it well enough here... If there is a small percentage of DOs who want to remain distinct and "different" (or whatever other garbage the AOA is selling) then why not let them... let the AOA become the organization for all those that WANT to practice this way. Let the rest of us take "asylum" under the ACGME umbrella and renounce our AOA (and for my preference, the DO designation as well) ties and give us a choice who we wish to follow. Yeah, I know that will never happen because the honest and legitimate question of "why didn't you just go MD in the first place if that's what you want" is going to be there with no real good answer. My answer is... I was sold. I was sold that the AOA and the DO designation wouldn't hold me back and that the AOA would do what's best for ME (not themselves). I also had only one option at the time (DO) because I didn't score as high on the MCAT on my first attempt on the last administration of the exam after literally 3 weeks of studying to consider it reasonable to waste money applying to MD programs so I just applied DO with the plan to retake the MCAT after adequate studying but low and behold... I got into a DO program first. It wasn't my "only" choice, it was just the only choice at the time. Yup, a bad decision on my part and one I have to live with but since there is absolutely NO way to transfer from a DO to an MD program what exactly was I supposed to do? Buy what the AOA was selling and make the best of it, which is what I've done but now they've went against the very principles that they've tried to sell and I wish we could all "opt out". Uggh... yeah, this rambled way off into the distance but that's just how frustrated I get every time I think about this BS and how we, as the MAJORITY, have absolutely no say so on what happens to us. Might as well have Obamacare shoved down our throats, lol! I kid, I kid... well... not really

 

[willen101383]

Yeahhhhh, that would be pretty nice wouldnt it? Too bad the AOA would never let that happen.......ever. Who knows how this will play out, but I am pretty disturbed by how the AOA is acting. I LOVE the "comlex must remain viable" bullsht or whatever. The COMLEX is literally one of the worst tests I have ever taken. I actually think I could have not studied for step 2....and gotten the same score. Studying pays off for the USMLE, but not for COMLEX. I literally had tons of questions about ridiculous ethical situations, and questions about who in your office should call patients to discuss results of tests. I even had one asking about who should schedule a ride home for a patient. Like WTF. And they want this test to be one of the "pillars" of the merger? Pathetic.

 

[QuackaDO]

Yeahhhhh, that would be pretty nice wouldnt it? Too bad the AOA would never let that happen.......ever. Who knows how this will play out, but I am pretty disturbed by how the AOA is acting. I LOVE the "comlex must remain viable" bullsht or whatever. The COMLEX is literally one of the worst tests I have ever taken. I actually think I could have not studied for step 2....and gotten the same score. Studying pays off for the USMLE, but not for COMLEX. I literally had tons of questions about ridiculous ethical situations, and questions about who in your office should call patients to discuss results of tests. I even had one asking about who should schedule a ride home for a patient. Like WTF. And they want this test to be one of the "pillars" of the merger? Pathetic.

LOL. Fortunately/Unfortunately (not sure which) I haven't taken it yet but at LEAST 5 or 6 different people have told me about a question they got on their test (all describe the exact same question) where there is a graph or chart with a bunch of figures or data and then below a bunch of answer choices.... but no question, lol!!! They all said they thought they missed something but all that was there was the chart and the answer choices, nothing else. WTF is that???? And no, these people did not all take the test on the same day so it wasn't a "woops" moment unless the idiots who put COMLEX together couldn't figure it out after the first angry comment which means that question was MEANT TO BE like that. Seriously, WTF??

 

[bajastapler]

. I'd like to see the government intervene and put an end to all this nonsense.

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=147651

 

[user3]

"Will DOs training in osteopathic residencies be able to enter ACGME fellowships?" asked Trevine Albert, OMS II, who attends the Nova Southeastern University College of Osteopathic Medicine in Fort Lauderdale, Fla. - See more at: http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=147651#sthash.GpZhhMWK.dpuf

Because no agreement has been reached, responded Dr. Buser, the ACGME might go ahead with previously planned changes to its common program requirements that would prevent ACGME-accredited programs in all specialties from recognizing previously completed osteopathic GME. This would bar DOs in non-dually-accredited osteopathic residencies from pursuing ACGME fellowships and DOs in traditional rotating internships from entering ACGME residencies as second-year residents. New DO graduates would still be able to enter ACGME residencies as first-year residents.

 

[Dharma]

. I'd like to see the government intervene and put an end to all this nonsense.

http://www.do-online.org/TheDO/?p=147651

Hmm. Not sure what right the government has in terms of intervention here. (Maybe someone with a bit more knowledge in this realm can respond?) I know taxpayers' money is at stake. It would be interesting to see how the general public would respond if the happenings surrounding these events were presented via mainstream media.

My vote = less government though. I'd rather them not step in.

 

[se20001984]

Any way we can get the AOA board to formally step down

It's ridiculous

Can you imagine being in an AOA resudency n being blocked out a fellowship

How sad!

 

[NurWollen]

I wonder how people must feel who just graduated med school and matched into an AOA internship, thinking they would be able to pursue an ACGME residency. Hopefully, if the ACGME does go through with it, it will be timed in such a way as to affect only those who haven't already matched (i.e. new MS4's.)

 

[mustang1]

It is because of decisions and policies such as those recently voiced by our osteopathic "leaders" that darn near every DO student with the numbers/credentials jumps ship for graduate medical education. Recently met with my dean to discuss the upcoming residency cycle during which she encouraged me and my friends to give serious consideration to the DO match. No thanks. I will take my 240s step 1 and 260s step 2 and exit stage left. The unfortunate part of all of this is the few of us that go on to truly stellar opportunities (arguably the most driven and talented) are precluded from osteopathic leadership; unless they can successfully appeal that their residency training at Hopkins, Harvard et. al was "equivalent" and worthy of consideration. This leaves a bad taste in their mouths and consequently we are left with leaders who trained in FM in illustrious places with populations of less than 50,000. I have personally met two past AOA presidents and they both seemed more impressed about talking about all the famous people they have done OMM on than commanding the room and getting **** done. Good bye AOA. You and I will forever part ways in May.

 

[Styria]

Can you imagine being in an AOA resudency n being blocked out a fellowship

The ACGME blocks people from doing a residency for fellowship (last I heard, this was still only a proposal), but it's the AOA's fault. Brilliant!

 

[willen101383]

It is because of decisions and policies such as those recently voiced by our osteopathic "leaders" that darn near every DO student with the numbers/credentials jumps ship for graduate medical education. Recently met with my dean to discuss the upcoming residency cycle during which she encouraged me and my friends to give serious consideration to the DO match. No thanks. I will take my 240s step 1 and 260s step 2 and exit stage left. The unfortunate part of all of this is the few of us that go on to truly stellar opportunities (arguably the most driven and talented) are precluded from osteopathic leadership; unless they can successfully appeal that their residency training at Hopkins, Harvard et. al was "equivalent" and worthy of consideration. This leaves a bad taste in their mouths and consequently we are left with leaders who trained in FM in illustrious places with populations of less than 50,000. I have personally met two past AOA presidents and they both seemed more impressed about talking about all the famous people they have done OMM on than commanding the room and getting **** done. Good bye AOA. You and I will forever part ways in May.

Cant WAIT. Lets pray both of us match Gotta GTFO.

 

[Dharma]

The ACGME blocks people from doing a residency for fellowship (last I heard, this was still only a proposal), but it's the AOA's fault. Brilliant!

They're not blocking anyone per se. Rather they want a guarantee that one's prior training has met particular standards in order to grant them access to advanced training. (Need to know the foundation is strong before you start building higher). Seems logical to me. Granted, I am not privy to the details behind the political fisticuffs and the true motives for such, but on the surface, it makes sense.

 

[Superman DO]

If the AOA is going to keep their "separate but equal" policy to retain osteopathic distinctiveness, they sure need to focus on the equal part. Perhaps, they should start with ensuring all DO residencies and internships are held to the highest standards of medical education. Then, maybe the AOA can focus on actually producing residencies outside of family medicine, and in states other than Michigan or Ohio (no offense to people actually wanting to train in those states). Finally, create some quality fellowships for DO residents who actually want to pursue advanced training after residency! Last time I checked, there were practically no pediatric fellowships on the DO side.

Meet these expectations AOA, and perhaps a separate but equal mentality will work. But currently, it just isn't equal. . . .

 

[MD860]

The AOA has put the nail in its Coffin, I would suggest everyone to apply to ACGME programs before considering AOA residencies/fellowships and take the USMLE's. The AOA board of trustees and leadership consists of semi-retired physicians that are not facing the real isssues DO residents or Attendings deal with on a daily basis, instead of helping our cause they are opening a pandora's box that could relegate the entire DO profession to a second class and unrespected profession.

 

[DrNightMoves]

Osteopathic distinction works in two directions. I think that everyone needs to remember that we will never have an MD degree, nor will the two degrees ever be indistinguishable. Being distinct means that we wont be lumped into the gigantic group of midlevels who are self described as "pretty much the same as an MD" (PAs, DNPs, etc).

Personally, I would be much prouder to distinctly be recognized as a Doctor of Osteopathy than lose distinction and just look like every other midlevel who call themselves Doctor.

 

[se20001984]

Do you even understand what the real issue is lol

 

[preDoGuy24]

Osteopathic distinction works in two directions. I think that everyone needs to remember that we will never have an MD degree, nor will the two degrees ever be indistinguishable. Being distinct means that we wont be lumped into the gigantic group of midlevels who are self described as "pretty much the same as an MD" (PAs, DNPs, etc).

Personally, I would be much prouder to distinctly be recognized as a Doctor of Osteopathy than lose distinction and just look like every other midlevel who call themselves Doctor.

What the hell are you talking about? This makes zero sense and no one uses doctor of osteopathy (except psedu chiropracters in great Britain), it's doctor of osteopathic medicine.

lots of patients are confused by just saying you are a DO, trying for even more distinction between us and MDs beyond that will just cause more. Just stop.

Sent from my HTC One using Tapatalk

 

[Dharma]

Osteopathic distinction works in two directions. I think that everyone needs to remember that we will never have an MD degree, nor will the two degrees ever be indistinguishable. Being distinct means that we wont be lumped into the gigantic group of midlevels who are self described as "pretty much the same as an MD" (PAs, DNPs, etc).

Personally, I would be much prouder to distinctly be recognized as a Doctor of Osteopathy than lose distinction and just look like every other midlevel who call themselves Doctor.

You sure about the bolded parts up there? I mean, I agree that the degrees themselves will never be indistinguishable simply because they're just different letters, but most physicians behind the credentials sure look the same regardless of the alphabet soup.

I also think it's a bit of a stretch (down the slippery slope) saying that we will be lumped together with midlevels. As long as we are still licensed physicians, the lumping is a matter of opinion at best. Some (uneducated) already think a DO is "not a real doctor" to begin with. Ignorance will be there regardless of the scenario. Legally, physicians D.O.s will remain.

The only distinctiveness there is in reality is the claim "but we're different!" unless you're talking about that small percentage actually practicing osteopathic medicine who actually ARE of a different breed. I'm not saying one should not be proud to be a D.O. But I think unless one falls into that OMM camp, he's only kidding himself claiming distinction besides the stitching on his coat.

I thought the whole "osteopathy" thing was traded in for "osteopathic medicine" for the sake of image in the public eye. Sorry to get lost in semantics, but that's the AOA pitch right?

 

[ZezKaiEll]

It is because of decisions and policies such as those recently voiced by our osteopathic "leaders" that darn near every DO student with the numbers/credentials jumps ship for graduate medical education. Recently met with my dean to discuss the upcoming residency cycle during which she encouraged me and my friends to give serious consideration to the DO match. No thanks. I will take my 240s step 1 and 260s step 2 and exit stage left. The unfortunate part of all of this is the few of us that go on to truly stellar opportunities (arguably the most driven and talented) are precluded from osteopathic leadership; unless they can successfully appeal that their residency training at Hopkins, Harvard et. al was "equivalent" and worthy of consideration. This leaves a bad taste in their mouths and consequently we are left with leaders who trained in FM in illustrious places with populations of less than 50,000. I have personally met two past AOA presidents and they both seemed more impressed about talking about all the famous people they have done OMM on than commanding the room and getting **** done. Good bye AOA. You and I will forever part ways in May.

I never really thought of it that way. Definitely an unfortunate dilemma.

 

[DrNightMoves]

if you think that unifying the match system will make the DO degree equally respected as the MD degree you are naive.

also, if the AOA were to allow the distinction between DOs and MDs to dissolve, the profession will become less respected. think about it. 20 years from now it could be "osteopathic medicine is distinct because DOs are trained under a slightly different philosophy and learn alternative treatment options" or it could be "DOs are the same as MDs except that DO students have lower MCAT scores, lower GPAs, and lower USMLE scores than MDs."

You want DO to be equally respected as MD in a world where the only difference is that the average DO student is QUALITATIVELY not as smart as the average MD student?

 

[Dharma]

I think we'll be better respected if our training, on average, is up to par with that of our MD counterparts. This different philosophy talk is a bunch of fluff.

 

[bajastapler]

if you think that unifying the match system will make the DO degree equally respected as the MD degree you are naive.

A unified match means - at least in theory - equal access to resources. I think it is naive to believe that a unified match system would not level the playing field. Look at Brown vs Board of Education and how it transformed the educational system in America. Now there are a lot of variables to consider, but you would be hard pressed to find someone that does not believe a unified educational system was a net benefit. (Well, the KKK, eugenicists, and Hitler might side with you.)

also, if the AOA were to allow the distinction between DOs and MDs to dissolve, the profession will become less respected. think about it. 20 years from now it could be "osteopathic medicine is distinct because DOs are trained under a slightly different philosophy and learn alternative treatment options" or it could be "DOs are the same as MDs except that DO students have lower MCAT scores, lower GPAs, and lower USMLE scores than MDs."

You want DO to be equally respected as MD in a world where the only difference is that the average DO student is QUALITATIVELY not as smart as the average MD student?

Yes the average MD does have higher admittance GPAs/MCATs than the DO counter-part, but those are only two indicators of a physicians success. Also, DOs tend to admit more students that enter family medicine, which we know is not that competitive. That means more students with lower GPAs/MCATs get accepted to DO programs than they do to MD programs. This results in contrasting sample sizes and skewed data. If you took the GPA/MCAT of let's say your average MD anesthesiology resident and compared it to your average DO anesthesiology resident (and controlled for variables) you would find that their statistics are quite similar.

Furthermore, I would be much more interested in seeing the GPA/USMLE/COMLEX of my physician than some college based statistics. Heck, if we're gonna be specific about it: I would like to see the GPA/USMLE/COMLEX scores per specialty (broken down and controlled for variables such as socioeconomic affluence, IQ, age groups, and what ever else you could think up as a variable.) I bet if a study like that came out, the data for your average white male DO gen surg resident - who comes from a two parent home that netted 200k - has very similar stats to your average white male MD gen surg resident - who comes from a two parent home that netted 200 k. (Jeez seems like you can make up almost any statistic to prove/disprove a stream of thought .)

Finally, with the passing of Obamacare ~30 million previously uninsured Americans will, supposedly, have access to healthcare . Now when those people come knocking, I don't think they will be concerned with what school you went to and ask for a detailed pedigree of your past. If you're a DO and they ask what it is, then explain what a DO is: a physician. Simple as that. And you know what? If they opt-out and would prefer to see an MD physician. That's fine too. They have every right to. One less gomer for me to deal with.

I don't think a unified match means that, overnight, DOs will find themselves matching into Man's Best Hospital. But I do believe that under a unified match, somewhere down the line, a DO will not only match at Man's Best Hospital, but can become the chief of medicine there. Heck, if a Black man can become President of the United States you really think a DO couldn't match and/or become chief of medicine at Man's Best Hospital? Now who's being naive.

 

[DrNightMoves]

The only thing that a unified match would have really accomplished is to make it easier to apply to the same programs that DO graduates already had access to. Aside from the other fact that everyone seems to forget, is it would allow US MDs, including the thousands from the Caribbean to enter the AOA match. If anything, it just makes is harder to match.

 

[sylvanthus]

The only thing that a unified match would have really accomplished is to make it easier to apply to the same programs that DO graduates already had access to. Aside from the other fact that everyone seems to forget, is it would allow US MDs, including the thousands from the Caribbean to enter the AOA match. If anything, it just makes is harder to match.

This was speculation and it was thought it may happen, but was not a certainty.

 

[Dharma]

The only thing that a unified match would have really accomplished is to make it easier to apply to the same programs that DO graduates already had access to. Aside from the other fact that everyone seems to forget, is it would allow US MDs, including the thousands from the Caribbean to enter the AOA match. If anything, it just makes is harder to match.

Regardless of the ability of MD grads having access to AOA positions, there should be a particular level of standards across the board that ALL residencies, ACGME or AOA, must be meet to remain viable. A unification would have streamlined this process. My hope is that at the very least, there will some arbitrary oversight group that overlooks all residencies in the US someday, making sure that the subpar ones either get their act together or face an imminent shut down.

Also, I don't see a problem with competing with MD grads for AOA spots. AOA programs would probably have a bit more lean towards the DO student anyway, assuming similar stats. If someone is good enough is shouldn't matter. Only the subpar student should fear such a thing.

And how is it ok to have the double standard of DO students having access to MD programs but not vice versa? Without ACGME access for the past few decades the osteopathic profession would be nowhere near where it is today. From an outsider's perspective, all of this probably seems asinine. (I'd personally like to see more of this info presented to general public, considering the amount of taxpayers' money at stake).

If AOA programs were up to par and COCA wasn't opening schools/branches like they were 7-11's, we probably wouldn't even be having this discussion...

 

[Dharma]

Hmm... wonder if the ~10% of voters seen in this poll will be those representing D.O.s of the future in the AOA someday...

 

[Banned]

I'm a DO student, and I don't even know what "osteopathic distinctiveness" really means. Someone needs to make a clear, concise definition because it sounds like a load of bullshet to me. COMLEX? Osteo board certs? OMM? As far as I'm concerned, the things the AOA wants to keep all suck, and not a single tear will be shed if they're gone forever.

The only thing that a unified match would have really accomplished is to make it easier to apply to the same programs that DO graduates already had access to. Aside from the other fact that everyone seems to forget, is it would allow US MDs, including the thousands from the Caribbean to enter the AOA match. If anything, it just makes is harder to match.

If. IF this was allowed, I think a hilariously large number of subpar AOA residencies would turn into IMG sweatshops. So I guess one pro of rejecting the MOU is to save the AOA embarrassment from others observing how crappy AOA's GME really is.

 

[sylvanthus]

Hmm... wonder if the ~10% of voters seen in this poll will be those representing D.O.s of the future in the AOA someday...

Not a chance, they take the same "type" of people in the AOA as the current leadership. It is self-perpetuating.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Not a chance, they take the same "type" of people in the AOA as the current leadership. It is self-perpetuating.

Aren't all the current AOA members related to either famous DOs or people who formerly controlled the organization and pass it down?

 

[Dharma]

Not a chance, they take the same "type" of people in the AOA as the current leadership. It is self-perpetuating.

That's what I was saying. Only about 10% in this little poll seem to fall into that AOA loyalist realm...

 

[dozitgetchahi]

I'm a DO student, and I don't even know what "osteopathic distinctiveness" really means. Someone needs to make a clear, concise definition because it sounds like a load of bullshet to me. COMLEX? Osteo board certs? OMM? As far as I'm concerned, the things the AOA wants to keep all suck, and not a single tear will be shed if they're gone forever.


If. IF this was allowed, I think a hilariously large number of subpar AOA residencies would turn into IMG sweatshops. So I guess one pro of rejecting the MOU is to save the AOA embarrassment from others observing how crappy AOA's GME really is.

So true.

The only thing I'm going to say is...match ACGME. I used to worry about all this AOA nonsense back when I was in medical school too, but once you get out and match an ACGME residency it all looks very quaint in comparison.

 

[MRSAful Fate]

I'm a DO student, and I don't even know what "osteopathic distinctiveness" really means.

Seriously. The only thing distinctive about modern osteopathic culture is the massive identity crisis that pervades it. The degree has a history but the moment the DO pathway led to a career as a physician all that went by the wayside. I'm just looking for training to enter a profession, they can keep the window dressing.