Osteopathic general surgery residency- How competitive?

[Kuba]

so what happens to the DOs who go to these supposedly terrible AOA surgical residencies at community hospitals? Do they slip through the cracks and become mediocre surgeons?

They become surgeons like everyone else. They just dont go on to work at Cedars Sinai or get a transplant fellowship. They work across the country wherever surgeons are needed. Just not in the highly competitive hospitals/fields. Generally.

Who said anything about terrible? It is true that there is a disproportionate amount of AOA surg residencies at small community hospitals, but at most the training is far from terrible. They also do much of the tertiary care stuff out at the big centers. They go on to practice the same way as the Ivy league guys. In actuality they are more technically proficient often times than the Ivy league guys who spend more time on academics/research.

Personally I wanted to train at a large tertiary care trauma center, so that is the program I ranked #1, but my #2 was a smaller community hospital (CCOM's St. James) that has a close relationship with the one of the "meccas" of trauma(Cook). Those residents were the most capable I met anywhere on the audition/interview trail. Other, even smaller community hospitals (I'm talking <250 beds,) seem to turn out very capable surgeons also.

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[Khirurg]

How good of a surgeon you will turn out by the end of residency, depends on many things. Among them individual factor - whether you are a capable smart person; amount of pathology seen during residency; and how much you get to do in your residency.
While improving your surgical skills has to do with repeated practice, if one's hands grow out of his ass, he will get better, but probably never good. You also have to have surgeons' mindset. Those who have been in surgical residency, know, that surgeon and internist - are two different mentalities. Surgeon knows that problem has to be fixed, and he does it. You might know twenty five reasons why your patient is thrombocytopenic and bleeding, but while you are reciting them, i will get platelets from blood bank, put line in a patient and transfuse them. No dithering. This is probably even more important than skills. I have seen quite a few residents drop out or be dropped, once it's obvious that they weren't "surgical material".
If all you see during your residency is appys and choles, you will know how to do them, but i wouldn't want you to do a whipple on me. That's a drawback for a lot of osteo programs. You see some basic stuff, maybe get to do it, but slightly more complex cases never come to these hospitals and when they do, residents are very rarely allowed to do them.
Finally, as far as St Barnabas is concerned, busy trauma place, defintely a member of knife and gun club, if that is what you like, but other than that, just another mediocre DO program.

 

[Kuba]

How good of a surgeon you will turn out by the end of residency, depends on many things. Among them individual factor - whether you are a capable smart person; amount of pathology seen during residency; and how much you get to do in your residency.
While improving your surgical skills has to do with repeated practice, if one's hands grow out of his ass, he will get better, but probably never good. You also have to have surgeons' mindset. Those who have been in surgical residency, know, that surgeon and internist - are two different mentalities. Surgeon knows that problem has to be fixed, and he does it. You might know twenty five reasons why your patient is thrombocytopenic and bleeding, but while you are reciting them, i will get platelets from blood bank, put line in a patient and transfuse them. No dithering. This is probably even more important than skills. I have seen quite a few residents drop out or be dropped, once it's obvious that they weren't "surgical material".
If all you see during your residency is appys and choles, you will know how to do them, but i wouldn't want you to do a whipple on me. That's a drawback for a lot of osteo programs. You see some basic stuff, maybe get to do it, but slightly more complex cases never come to these hospitals and when they do, residents are very rarely allowed to do them.
Finally, as far as St Barnabas is concerned, busy trauma place, defintely a member of knife and gun club, if that is what you like, but other than that, just another mediocre DO program.

Would anyone want any general surgeon doing a whipple on them?

 

[DocEspana]

Would anyone want any general surgeon doing a whipple on them?

I mean if they paid me. I don't need that duodenum.... or stomach.... or gall bladder..... or pancreas. Damn, thats a lot of body parts that I really think I'd want an expert handling.

for truth and humor at once.

 

[Khirurg]

Would anyone want any general surgeon doing a whipple on them?

believe it or not, most whipples are done by general surgeons. Maybe Whipple was not the perfect example, but even gastrectomy, etc. You need to do a few to be comfortable.

 

[Kuba]

Wasn't there a study showing poor outcomes if your surgeon didn't do x number of whipples/year. Anyway, I see your point, but the places I rotated at on my electives actually had a decent amount of rarer, more complicated cases like the surg onc examples. At Arrowhead in Cali, there were 2 whipples in the couple of weeks I was there, plus an esophagectomy and prob other cases such as this that I wasnt aware of. Isnt this argument valid for academic vs community in the MD world? All osteo programs are essentially community.

 

[Khirurg]

Wasn't there a study showing poor outcomes if your surgeon didn't do x number of whipples/year. Anyway, I see your point, but the places I rotated at on my electives actually had a decent amount of rarer, more complicated cases like the surg onc examples. At Arrowhead in Cali, there were 2 whipples in the couple of weeks I was there, plus an esophagectomy and prob other cases such as this that I wasnt aware of. Isnt this argument valid for academic vs community in the MD world? All osteo programs are essentially community.

As i said, Whipple procedure was probably a bad example. Maybe it is no longer expected that you come out of residency and are able to do a Whipple procedure by yourself right away. But basic stuff that should never go beyond your community general surgeon, like gastrectomies, bile duct explorations, rectal resections, are not always seen in reasonable numbers in some of the community hospitals that house osteopathic surgery residencies.
Seeing one once a year, even if doing it, is not enough to get good at it

 

[GregsAnatomy]

They become surgeons like everyone else. They just dont go on to work at Cedars Sinai or get a transplant fellowship.

A resident from Doctors in Columbus will be starting a transplant fellowship next year.

There is a lot of misinformation is this thread that I'm not going to dignify with a response.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

A resident from Doctors in Columbus will be starting a transplant fellowship next year.

There is a lot of misinformation is this thread that I'm not going to dignify with a response.

Your ID and avatar don't match up!!

On a more serious note, maybe you should clarify the misinfo

 

[DocEspana]

A resident from Doctors in Columbus will be starting a transplant fellowship next year.

There is a lot of misinformation is this thread that I'm not going to dignify with a response.

I was responding specifically to what happens when people go to sh*tty residencies. I don't think that is a sh*tty one. Nor do I think many of them are. But there are some (just as there are some in ACGME) that are, usually for geographic reasons, less advantageous.

I'm confused how I went from usual defender of the AOA residencies to being picked out as misinforming and underrepresenting them in this thread. hahaha. It must have been my comment not representing itself well if that one response is not in the context of my usual. My fault there. I was definitely just referring to the junky residencies. And even then, you become a surgeon just like anyone else, you just have less total opportunities if you went to a dinky place.

 

[Taty]

I was responding specifically to what happens when people go to sh*tty residencies. I don't think that is a sh*tty one. Nor do I think many of them are. But there are some (just as there are some in ACGME) that are, usually for geographic reasons, less advantageous.

I'm confused how I went from usual defender of the AOA residencies to being picked out as misinforming and underrepresenting them in this thread. hahaha. It must have been my comment not representing itself well if that one response is not in the context of my usual. My fault there. I was definitely just referring to the junky residencies. And even then, you become a surgeon just like anyone else, you just have less total opportunities if you went to a dinky place.

Did you go to the residency in dinky place and now because of that have limited opportunities?

As a student I rotated in the big academic places (allopatic) and I met surgeons who completed residencies in the places never heard of...

I think that every residency is what you make of it even if it is junky as you said. It is still a place that gives u a chance...Residency gives you an opportunity to become what you want, everything else is up to you...but it is just my personal opinion.

 

[Dotsero]

Does a ~500 Comlex take me out of the running for osteopathic GS?

 

[Taty]

Does a ~500 Comlex take me out of the running for osteopathic GS?

I don't think so. DO programs tend to look on your application as a whole. Rotate in the places where u want to go,get good LORS and u will be fine.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Does a ~500 Comlex take me out of the running for osteopathic GS?

Have had a classmate who matched w/ a 450. But the person rotated there 2 months and did a good job getting good with them. So, no.

500 seems to be the cut off from what I was told by a program coordinator.

 

[Taty]

Have had a classmate who matched w/ a 450. But the person rotated there 2 months and did a good job getting good with them. So, no.

500 seems to be the cut off from what I was told by a program coordinator.

I know person like that too... maybe it is a same person?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I know person like that too... maybe it is a same person?

Possible. Did you do all your rotations in NY/northeast?

 

[Taty]

Possible. Did you do all your rotations in NY/northeast?

Yep

 

[DrWBD]

A resident from Doctors in Columbus will be starting a transplant fellowship next year.

There is a lot of misinformation is this thread that I'm not going to dignify with a response.

Transplant is one of the least competitive fellowships. You're unfortunately promoting misinformation yourself. I see this argument often on SDN and by program directors: "we match people in ACGME surgical fellowships therefore we have a good residency program". The reality is that:

1. unless you're talking about plastics, surgical fellowships aren't necessarily tough to get. Not every program will fill their slots, unlike general surgery itself.
2. Where you train is very important. American MDs are favored in the top tier programs while FMGs and DOs tend to get what is left).

Old thread on surgical fellowship competitiveness:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5353580#post5353580

 

[GregsAnatomy]

Transplant is one of the least competitive fellowships. You're unfortunately promoting misinformation yourself. I see this argument often on SDN and by program directors: "we match people in ACGME surgical fellowships therefore we have a good residency program". The reality is that:

1. unless you're talking about plastics, surgical fellowships aren't necessarily tough to get. Not every program will fill their slots, unlike general surgery itself.
2. Where you train is very important. American MDs are favored in the top tier programs while FMGs and DOs tend to get what is left).

Old thread on surgical fellowship competitiveness:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=5353580#post5353580

Oh I totally agree. You essentially need a pulse to get into a trauma, transplant, or CT surg fellowship. Obviously the bigger name places are going to attract top MD candidates.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Oh I totally agree. You essentially need a pulse to get into a trauma, transplant, or CT surg fellowship. Obviously the bigger name places are going to attract top MD candidates.

The thing is, you never specified where.

 

[Taty]

The thing is, you never specified where.

 

[Khirurg]

Oh I totally agree. You essentially need a pulse to get into a trauma, transplant, or CT surg fellowship. Obviously the bigger name places are going to attract top MD candidates.

that being said, you have to be pretty good to excell in them (except trauma). The ease of obtaining the fellowship has to do with overall market, rather than how good the program is.

 

[kasjdf]

Transplant is one of the least competitive fellowships. You're unfortunately promoting misinformation yourself. I see this argument often on SDN and by program directors: "we match people in ACGME surgical fellowships therefore we have a good residency program". The reality is that:

1. unless you're talking about plastics, surgical fellowships aren't necessarily tough to get. Not every program will fill their slots, unlike general surgery itself.


This may be true overall. But programs like OSU arent just going to give their fellowships away to anyone with a pair of hands. Given the fact that there has never been a Solid Organ Transplant trained DO, Id say this is an achievement. And as far as plastics for AOA trained, regardless of how 'good' you are, the application criteria for ACGME plastic fellowships mandate ACGME trained applicants, and given they have a accred board DOs cant simply just get accepted unlike certificating fellowships (trauma, breats, surg onc, etc). There has been one exception i know about (but very rare circumstances). Its a very confusing and often misleading process.

 

[Dissected]

They didn't mention it back in September when I interviewed, but dual accreditation in GS is prob not a good idea for DOs. Arrowhead has a pseudo-dual accreditation and what resulted is the AOA part seemingly being nudged out.

Mercy is pretty hell bent on becoming dually accredited. The PD & residents there say that it will likely happen in the next couple/few years. 2 DO spots and 2 ACGME match spots.

 

[Khirurg]

This may be true overall. But programs like OSU arent just going to give their fellowships away to anyone with a pair of hands. Given the fact that there has never been a Solid Organ Transplant trained DO, Id say this is an achievement. And as far as plastics for AOA trained, regardless of how 'good' you are, the application criteria for ACGME plastic fellowships mandate ACGME trained applicants, and given they have a accred board DOs cant simply just get accepted unlike certificating fellowships (trauma, breats, surg onc, etc). There has been one exception i know about (but very rare circumstances). Its a very confusing and often misleading process.[/QUOTE]
Certain specialties have board certifications, such as CT, vascular, plastics, etc. Being a DO from AOA residency, excludes you from taking ACGME specialty boards from that field, even if you trained at ACGME fellowship program. For the program, you not taking boards is equivalent to person failing the boards, hence a lot of these programs are hesitant about taking AOA graduated fellows.
Transplant is one of the least competitive fellowships, filled with foreign grads, even the top places. While, as i said before, it is one of the more difficult fields to be excell at due to both academic and technical complexity, due to it's lifestyle and stress, it is not sought after field at all.

 

[Freddie Mercury]

NYCOM just started a new Gen Surgery residency in Southampton, Long Island. 5 more spots for Osteo gen surgery for next years match.

bump, anyone have more info about this program? friend is interested, but doesn't have SDN account. We can't find much info online regarding the NYCOM/Southampton general surgery residency.

 

[SLC]

bump, anyone have more info about this program? friend is interested, but doesn't have SDN account. We can't find much info online regarding the NYCOM/Southampton general surgery residency.

Tell your "friend" that it's free and easy to get his/her own SDN account.

I always think it's strange when people ask questions for their "friends"

 

[Freddie Mercury]

Tell your "friend" that it's free and easy to get his/her own SDN account.

I always think it's strange when people ask questions for their "friends"

I'm... not sure what to make of this post.

 

[SLC]

I'm... not sure what to make of this post.

I just think it's weird when people ask questions for some other med-student "friend" who doesn't have an SDN account as though it's impossible for that friend to create an account and ask him/herself.

It's my impression that it's usually the poster himself who has the question, but he/she would like to pretend like it's someone else who has the problem. Like we even know who they are in the first place.

 

[THH]

I just think it's weird when people ask questions for some other med-student "friend" who doesn't have an SDN account as though it's impossible for that friend to create an account and ask him/herself.

It's my impression that it's usually the poster himself who has the question, but he/she would like to pretend like it's someone else who has the problem. Like we even know who they are in the first place.

Who cares about that enough to make multiple posts about it? Lol.

 

[SLC]

Who cares about that enough to make multiple posts about it? Lol.

Who cares enough to post about the guy who makes multiple posts about it?

 

[THH]

 

[costales]

Asking questions on behalf of a friend/sibling/spouse/paramour who doesn't know how to use the Internet is an old SDN tradition.

 

[DocEspana]

Asking questions on behalf of a friend/sibling/spouse/paramour who doesn't know how to use the Internet is an old SDN tradition.

My Au Pair was wondering about this intricacy of medical school life that in no way shape or form is a question actually about me. I told you. Its my au pair.

 

[572776]

For those who did sub-i's in st joseph (Paterson, NJ), where did you stay for a month? Hotel? Some kind of apartments that do monthly lease?

 

[Liberty1990]

Anyone know which programs don't interview people who don't rotate there, or at least which hospitals put a big emphasis on the audition rotation?

 

[MattSmith45]

To all of you interesting/going into osteopathic general surgery --

how did you get involved in research? and at what point of medical school?

 

[TravelingDoc2]

To all of you interesting/going into osteopathic general surgery --

how did you get involved in research? and at what point of medical school?

I also have this same question but not just for gen surgery but other fields as well. It just occurred to me that most likely in 3 years (2019 class) alot of AOA residencies should be ACGME. How will the average OMS student be on the same level as a MD student. I interviewed at an MD school last year and asked the 4th year med students that matched into gen surgery if they did research. They all hated it and mentioned they did it for the CV, of course they did the research at their school/hospital. I have been searching for weeks now and there is practically nothing out there for DO students, the research at my DO school is lame( nothing cutting edge like cancer) and very tough to get (10 people total).

Why would a residency director even consider a DO student for surgery when they can have an MD student with all that stuff?

 

[Mjolner]

I also have this same question but not just for gen surgery but other fields as well. It just occurred to me that most likely in 3 years (2019 class) alot of AOA residencies should be ACGME. How will the average OMS student be on the same level as a MD student. I interviewed at an MD school last year and asked the 4th year med students that matched into gen surgery if they did research. They all hated it and mentioned they did it for the CV, of course they did the research at their school/hospital. I have been searching for weeks now and there is practically nothing out there for DO students, the research at my DO school is lame( nothing cutting edge like cancer) and very tough to get (10 people total).

Why would a residency director even consider a DO student for surgery when they can have an MD student with all that stuff?

That's the problem for DOs in most good or moderately good ACGME surgery programs. Well. One of them.

 

[Danglebells]

take USMLE. talked to the PD of my (DO) school's gen surg residency program, and he said that within the next 2 years he plans to make USMLE scores a requirement of the program.


no I will not disclose which school I go to.

 

[Jinxapotato]

I mean, our school has a research scholarship thing for the first Summer. It's only for 25 people...and our class is 250...While we don't have anything ground breaking, I think some experience/publication is always beneficial. TLDR: there are opportunities out there, just depend on if you are good enough to get em, and if you think they are worth your time.

 

[masterwares]

bump.

I have picked up a few sites to audition at, but I have one last spot and I am wondering if someone could help me figure out what to do. I am deciding between gensurg and neurosurg.

I got a 505 on the Level1. I have 5 published papers in neuro and chem fields. top 25% of my med school class in GPA rank. Lots of community service.

I am trying to decide between Botsford and Macomb. Which one would be more suited to help me out?

Also, do I have a shot at D.O. or M.D. neurosurgery programs?

 

[Happy Student]

bump.

I have picked up a few sites to audition at, but I have one last spot and I am wondering if someone could help me figure out what to do. I am deciding between gensurg and neurosurg.

I got a 505 on the Level1. I have 5 published papers in neuro and chem fields. top 25% of my med school class in GPA rank. Lots of community service.

I am trying to decide between Botsford and Macomb. Which one would be more suited to help me out?

Also, do I have a shot at D.O. or M.D. neurosurgery programs?

Truthfully, unless you killed USMLE, you do not have a shot at M.D. programs, both neurosurgery or gen. surg. I would stick with AOA gen surg programs.

 

[SLC]

bump.

I have picked up a few sites to audition at, but I have one last spot and I am wondering if someone could help me figure out what to do. I am deciding between gensurg and neurosurg.

I got a 505 on the Level1. I have 5 published papers in neuro and chem fields. top 25% of my med school class in GPA rank. Lots of community service.

I am trying to decide between Botsford and Macomb. Which one would be more suited to help me out?

Also, do I have a shot at D.O. or M.D. neurosurgery programs?

Sorry, but a lack of USMLE will likely keep you out of MD gen surg. Even with the USLME and a good score, you'd have virtually no chance at MD Neurosurg.

Your COMLEX is only at the average, focus of AOA Gen Surg programs; and probably have a backup plan too.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

I am trying to decide between Botsford and Macomb. Which one would be more suited to help me out?

Both Botsford and Macomb are incredibly competitive. I would argue that they are two of the most competitive AOA surgery programs because both have fellowships. Both programs will also be interviewing MDs next year. I'm also pretty sure they both have COMLEX minimum requirements that might be above 550.
You should be looking into newer programs.

 

[hallowmann]

Both Botsford and Macomb are incredibly competitive. I would argue that they are two of the most competitive AOA surgery programs because both have fellowships. Both programs will also be interviewing MDs next year. I'm also pretty sure they both have COMLEX minimum requirements that might be above 550.
You should be looking into newer programs.

Botsford can interview MDs for next year (they have initial ACGME accreditation), but Macomb still has continued pre-accreditation. If they get initial accreditation early enough over the next 6-9 mos, then I could see them interviewing MDs, but as of right now they will not be able to do so.

 

[masterwares]

Both Botsford and Macomb are incredibly competitive. I would argue that they are two of the most competitive AOA surgery programs because both have fellowships. Both programs will also be interviewing MDs next year. I'm also pretty sure they both have COMLEX minimum requirements that might be above 550.
You should be looking into newer programs.

What are some of the newer programs? I have 4GS and 1DO NS and 1 MD NS approved already.

 

[masterwares]

Can't speak for Macomb but I know Botsford is VERY interview and audition rotation focused. if you haven't rotated through especially in the field you're thinking, it's pretty difficult.

I have 6 auditions planned already. Don't know if I'll have time for one more at Botsford, but yeah I heard that too.

 

[masterwares]

Botsford can interview MDs for next year (they have initial ACGME accreditation), but Macomb still has continued pre-accreditation. If they get initial accreditation early enough over the next 6-9 mos, then I could see them interviewing MDs, but as of right now they will not be able to do so.

As of now they are okay with my comlex.

 

[SurgeDO]

As of now they are okay with my comlex.

How'd you do on your USMLE?