Osteopathic general surgery residency- How competitive?

[KHOURI86]

Hello, I apologize if I am in the wrong forum but I have a question regarding osteopathic general surgery residencies. Does anyone know how competitive this specialty is right now? Is it easier to land a gs residency at an osteopathic program than at an allopathic one? Where does it stack up in terms of competitiveness when compared to other osteopathic residency specialities? Thanks. Your insight is greatly appreciated.

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[KHOURI86]

Hello, I apologize if I am in the wrong forum but I have a question regarding osteopathic general surgery residencies. Does anyone know how competitive this specialty is right now? Is it easier to land a gs residency at an osteopathic program than at an allopathic one? Where does it stack up in terms of competitiveness when compared to other osteopathic residency specialities? Thanks. Your insight is greatly appreciated.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

There's a lot of GS programs, so I dont know.

I hear some have 500 cut offs, I understand it's not that strict for most programs, though.

Audition, do well, interview well. All I can say... maybe someone else who did GS can comment further.

 

[Smurfette]

I think you may get better responses in Osteo...

Moving thread.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

I think you may get better responses in Osteo...

Moving thread.

There's a repeat thread here.

 

[ShyRem]

And I merged them.

 

[KHOURI86]

Thanks. bumping this thread to get more responses on point.

 

[florence501]

Thanks for posting this question. I am also interested in surgical residency. Would love to get hear what others think.

 

[KHOURI86]

Bump

 

[desijigga]

I would have to say its decently competitive since there were 104 spots in the DO match for GS, and 102 were taken in the match. There is still heavy bias in the allopathic GS programs towards DOs, I am sure there are still some you get in. So that pushes all the surgery gunners to go for the DO match... I say do your best on boards, rotate through places you want to go to, and apply everywhere. You will match somewhere, and at the end of day you will be a surgeon.

 

[sonofva]

I would have to say its decently competitive since there were 104 spots in the DO match for GS, and 102 were taken in the match. There is still heavy bias in the allopathic GS programs towards DOs, I am sure there are still some you get in. So that pushes all the surgery gunners to go for the DO match... I say do your best on boards, rotate through places you want to go to, and apply everywhere. You will match somewhere, and at the end of day you will be a surgeon.

i would say that this is solid, concise advice for all osteopathic specialties.

 

[Taty]

I would have to say its decently competitive since there were 104 spots in the DO match for GS, and 102 were taken in the match. There is still heavy bias in the allopathic GS programs towards DOs, I am sure there are still some you get in. So that pushes all the surgery gunners to go for the DO match... I say do your best on boards, rotate through places you want to go to, and apply everywhere. You will match somewhere, and at the end of day you will be a surgeon.

Agree with above. As an osteopathic student your best bet are osteopathic programs. Participating in allopatic match is a big gamble, but it is also doable. You should rotate at osteopathic programs you want to go to and impress them, sometimes if they like you they may look beyond your Level 1 scores if they not that impressive. As it was said above apply broadly, get great LORs from places where you see yourself going and you'll match

 

[GregsAnatomy]

Agree with above posters. Cannot over-emphasize the importance of doing away rotations at programs you are interested in!

 

[dAnthony1918]

greg where are u doing your residency if u dont mind me asking?

 

[countthestars]

NYCOM just started a new Gen Surgery residency in Southampton, Long Island. 5 more spots for Osteo gen surgery for next years match.

 

[gochiefs]

This is a little off topic but, for those who are more knowledgeable about the subject (have applied AOA gen. surg. or are well researched), what are widely considered as the best 5 to 10 programs for AOA general surgery?

 

[DrWBD]

NYCOM just started a new Gen Surgery residency in Southampton, Long Island. 5 more spots for Osteo gen surgery for next years match.

A <200 bed hospital in the sticks of Suffolk County, where all the interesting pathology will get sent to Stony Brook anyway. Sounds perfect for training surgeons!

 

[countthestars]

A <200 bed hospital in the sticks of Suffolk County, where all the interesting pathology will get sent to Stony Brook anyway. Sounds perfect for training surgeons!

Yea, it is a pretty small community hospital...Well you can always apply to Barnabas or luthern for the interesting pathology!

 

[rbs81]

This program will be split between Southampton Hospital/Peconic Bay Medical Center/Stony Brook for the big rotations.

KHOURI - most important aspects of getting a surgery residency are rotating at the place you are most interested and impressing while you are there. Board scores and grades need to be at least above average. What surgery programs care about are how you fit in and your dedication to the field. These two things will be evaluated during your audition rotation. Be early, stay late, work weekends. This worked for me.

 

[Firelight]

Are there any other new and upcoming surgery residencies?

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Are there any other new and upcoming surgery residencies?

Maybe it's just me.... but I'd never consider a brand new residency...go for the established ones......

 

[DrWBD]

This program will be split between Southampton Hospital/Peconic Bay Medical Center/Stony Brook for the big rotations.

By "big rotations" I'm assuming you mean "anything more complicated than lap choles and hernias".

Outside rotators = scut monkeys.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

By "big rotations" I'm assuming you mean "anything more complicated than lap choles and hernias".

Outside rotators = scut monkeys.

Great advice...people should not get excited when a marginal program has one or two rotations at major academic institutions. Most of the time the visiting residents are second class citizens getting bumped for cases by fellows, home senior residents, interns, med students and janitors. Not always true, but pretty common.

I am not doing GS, but some PCOM surgery people have said that their rotations at Memorial Sloan Kettering have been amazing experiences, but PCOM is a pretty established Gen Surg program in the DO world.

 

[Kuba]

Great advice...people should not get excited when a marginal program has one or two rotations at major academic institutions. Most of the time the visiting residents are second class citizens getting bumped for cases by fellows, home senior residents, interns, med students and janitors. Not always true, but pretty common.

I am not doing GS, but some PCOM surgery people have said that their rotations at Memorial Sloan Kettering have been amazing experiences, but PCOM is a pretty established Gen Surg program in the DO world.

I interviewed there this past year and the residents said they just watch and shadow there(MSK) basically. I got the impression that their residents have an immensely inflated opinion about their program.

 

[Kuba]

This is a little off topic but, for those who are more knowledgeable about the subject (have applied AOA gen. surg. or are well researched), what are widely considered as the best 5 to 10 programs for AOA general surgery?

I don't think anyone can intelligently answer that.. they are all good and they all suck, you know what I mean? No one program is perfect in every regard. Having said that, I'll give it a crack since I interviewed at 14 programs, talked to many interviewees and residents about the rest, and rotated at a few.

I would say top 10 established programs (in no particular order):

DMU - Mercy Medical
NYCOM - Lutheran Medical
Ohio COM - Doctor's Hospital
MSU - Henry Ford
MSU - Detroit Medical (Sinai Grace)
MSU- Botsford
MSU - Mt. Clemens
MWU - St James Chicago Heights
UMDNJ
Oklahoma State



As far as newer programs - St Joseph Regional in Paterson, NJ and Geisinger - Wilkes-Barre are already very good and will be excellent in a couple of years.

 

[Nickelpennykid]

I interviewed there this past year and the residents said they just watch and shadow there(MSK) basically. I got the impression that their residents have an immensely inflated opinion about their program.

Good to know...like I said I'm not doing GS so I have no first hand knowledge.

Another good example of why you should be cautious when DO programs constantly cite one major hospital they work with.

Since you just interviewed, is it true that they are applying to be dual accredited?

 

[Kuba]

Good to know...like I said I'm not doing GS so I have no first hand knowledge.

Another good example of why you should be cautious when DO programs constantly cite one major hospital they work with.

Since you just interviewed, is it true that they are applying to be dual accredited?

They didn't mention it back in September when I interviewed, but dual accreditation in GS is prob not a good idea for DOs. Arrowhead has a pseudo-dual accreditation and what resulted is the AOA part seemingly being nudged out.

 

[Taty]

Maybe it's just me.... but I'd never consider a brand new residency...go for the established ones......

Same here.

 

[Khirurg]

A <200 bed hospital in the sticks of Suffolk County, where all the interesting pathology will get sent to Stony Brook anyway. Sounds perfect for training surgeons!

That's how most of NYC DO gen surgery programs work.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

That's how most of NYC DO gen surgery programs work.

Then DONT go to NYC.......

Go to OH, MI, NJ, IA etc.

OR, you have Taty here, who matched categorical MD....... pick his/her brain. Hopefully he/she doesn't kill me for making this suggestion.....

 

[Kuba]

That's how most DO gen surgery programs work.

Fixed That For You.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

Fixed That For You.

Where will you be? DO or Military?

 

[Khirurg]

Then DONT go to NYC.......

Go to OH, MI, NJ, IA etc.

OR, you have Taty here, who matched categorical MD....... pick his/her brain. Hopefully he/she doesn't kill me for making this suggestion.....

dude, i am a little past that at this point.
My point is, they build this programs in sh(*&y hospitals with no real volume, use residents as scut monkeys. Claim, that you get this great experience at major tertiary centers, but in reality, you'll be lucky to hold retractors there. As a result the graduationg chiefs don't have enough experience and often cannot operate.
Very few DO places are actually worth going to.

 

[Kuba]

Where will you be? DO or Military?

DO. But I'm at a large level 1 trauma.

 

[Doctor4Life1769]

DO. But I'm at a large level 1 trauma.

Cool. Good job... I didn't do GS, so I don't know which ones are L1 TCs and which aren't.

 

[Kuba]

Cool. Good job... I didn't do GS, so I don't know which ones are L1 TCs and which aren't.

Theres only a handful. Most are in small(er) hospitals, hence the joke.

 

[theonlypatel]

so i've read through the posts, and while very helpful I can't help but notice no mention of st.barnabas in the bronx- anyone have anything specific to say about them as a program overall?

 

[DocEspana]

so i've read through the posts, and while very helpful I can't help but notice no mention of st.barnabas in the bronx- anyone have anything specific to say about them as a program overall?

I dont know that much about the program *per se* but they have put out a number of respected DO surgeon if a quick glance at what names on their alumni list I recognize. If nothing else, it's not a program with nothing going for it since at least some of the graduates go to some very prestigious fellowships.

Of course all of that says nothing at all of what the average resident there experiences, simply that there is a high potential ceiling.

 

[countthestars]

so i've read through the posts, and while very helpful I can't help but notice no mention of st.barnabas in the bronx- anyone have anything specific to say about them as a program overall?

Personally, you could NOT pay me to go work in the Bronx...One thing I hear about St. Barnabas is that the scut sucks and the nurses are horrable...then again that's pretty much the case for most all NYC hospitals. Oh, not to mention that fact that one of the housestaff at Barnabas decided to stab 3 or 4 other staff members of the hosptial a couple of months ago. My friend was a student on the on call room when this all went down. I would fear for my life both inside and outside the hosptial (the streets outside getting to the subway are pretty sketchy). If I was to do residency in NYC, I would ONLY want to live and work in Manhattan.

 

[DocEspana]

Personally, you could NOT pay me to go work in the Bronx...One thing I hear about St. Barnabas is that the scut sucks and the nurses are horrable...then again that's pretty much the case for most all NYC hospitals. Oh, not to mention that fact that one of the housestaff at Barnabas decided to stab 3 or 4 other staff members of the hosptial a couple of months ago. My friend was a student on the on call room when this all went down. I would fear for my life both inside and outside the hosptial (the streets outside getting to the subway are pretty sketchy). If I was to do residency in NYC, I would ONLY want to live and work in Manhattan.

Spice of life man. House staff stabbing really adds the thrill.

 

[LesBois88]

If I was to do residency in NYC, I would ONLY want to live and work in Manhattan.

Serious?

Manhattan has a couple of the worst neighborhoods in the city. The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens have some of the nicest.

 

[countthestars]

Serious?

Manhattan has a couple of the worst neighborhoods in the city. The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens have some of the nicest.

Serious. By Manhattan I mean below 90th street. I guess I could live in Williamsburg or Park slope but a 1 bedroom in those areas costs around $2000 a month, which is pretty much the same price as a 1 bedroom below 14th street. Oh and I've lived in one of the nicest areas of Queens my whole life...I plan on never living in queens ever again after med school.

 

[DocEspana]

Serious?

Manhattan has a couple of the worst neighborhoods in the city. The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens have some of the nicest.

Gonna have to break with you here. The Bronx and Brooklyn have a huge amount of their total landmass dedicated to places I wouldn't let my gf visit without a two man escort. Obviously they have good areas, they are just not the majority.

 

[LesBois88]

Gonna have to break with you here. The Bronx and Brooklyn have a huge amount of their total landmass dedicated to places I wouldn't let my gf visit without a two man escort. Obviously they have good areas, they are just not the majority.

We're not disagreeing at all, actually. My response was aimed more at the generalization made previously.

 

[DocEspana]

We're not disagreeing at all, actually. My response was aimed more at the generalization made previously.

Well carry on then.

 

[countthestars]

We're not disagreeing at all, actually. My response was aimed more at the generalization made previously.

I wasn't generalizing the other new york city boroughs in my previous post. I have my own personal reasons as to why I would ONLY want to live in Manhattan as opposed to living in Queens, Brooklyn of the Bronx. I am very into the music and art scene and tend to be around the lower east side, meatpacking, soho, chelesa area quite often. Sure they are nice areas in queens, brooklyn and the bronx but after living in queens my whole life and having to take the subway ALL the time to get into the city, I would much rather live and work in Manhattan. All of my friends live in the city and everything I love to do outside of medicine is in the city. So why not just live and work in the city rather than commute everyday back and forth between the city and the outer boroughs?

Sorry for the digression...back to the topic at hand. Osteopathic Gen surgery residency.

 

[WDeagle]

Osteopathic schools emphasize training students to be primary care physicians.

Ok thanks!

 

[patel2]

so what happens to the DOs who go to these supposedly terrible AOA surgical residencies at community hospitals? Do they slip through the cracks and become mediocre surgeons?

 

[DocEspana]

so what happens to the DOs who go to these supposedly terrible AOA surgical residencies at community hospitals? Do they slip through the cracks and become mediocre surgeons?

They become surgeons like everyone else. They just dont go on to work at Cedars Sinai or get a transplant fellowship. They work across the country wherever surgeons are needed. Just not in the highly competitive hospitals/fields. Generally.

 

[MedicineMike]

Serious?

Manhattan has a couple of the worst neighborhoods in the city. The Bronx, Brooklyn, and Queens have some of the nicest.

This is the most ridiculous statement I have ever heard...I work at Mount Sinai (98-100th) and anything above I wouldn't venture out in, but below 98th is absolutely fine. I live in Gramercy/East village