Hi all,
Just trying to figure out where everybody matched for ortho.
Just trying to figure out where everybody matched for ortho.
Osteopathic Ortho Match
- Thread starter DoctorV
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All but 1 of the ortho spots in the AOA match were filled this year.... are you looking for specific people/stats?
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Just wondering, do AOA Ortho residencies expect competitive applicants to have research experience? I'm asking because I read that in the AGCME world, successful applicants almost always have a number of publications done during med school.
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Matched into an AOA ortho program this year without any research published. If you are weak in the core areas (Boards, Grades) it may help boost your app but it is definitely not a requirement.
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Did you blow comlex out of the water or just above average? Curious if your numbers were just that much better to forgive any research.
Also curious where you matched if you don't mind. I understand if you don't want to say.
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When you say grades as a core area, does this include both preclinical and clinical grades?
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Mid 600s, above average but not a home run.
I matched To Largo Medical Center.
I'd say pre-clinical and clinical are important especially if they contribute to your class rank.
In the DO world grades and boards get you in the door, your rotation earns you a spot. The rest (research, volunteering, etc) is just icing on the cake.
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I'm not sure if you are being modest or just have a different perception of "home run" and merely "above average" than me. A score of 650 (I picked 650 for my example not knowing your exact score) would put you in the 94th percentile of testers. I consider that pretty darn impressive. Although your intent was probably to use your experience as evidence you don't need phenomenal stats to match, it seems like your case actually reinforces the perception that those matching ortho are top notch students. I get the feeling being above average is not good enough to match, but I guess I'll find out in a couple years.
Congrats on the match! It sounds like you certainly deserve it.
I wonder that the average complex 1 was for successful applicants this year.
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To give you guys some perspective, board scores are helpful, even necessary at certain programs. But many gunners have boards, I can think of a few 700+ that didn't get spots.
There are many guys that get in with 500s, work hard, be a normal dude, know your Ortho, never complain, never and you will be noticed.
There are many guys that get in with 500s, work hard, be a normal dude, know your Ortho, never complain, never and you will be noticed.
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In general, if you score less than 600, avoid programs that like high boards, list is available on this website.
If you score less than 500, serious souls searching is needed as chances are slim that you'll get a spot, it happens all the time but you gotta be a mega stud and be very likeable.
If you score less than 500, serious souls searching is needed as chances are slim that you'll get a spot, it happens all the time but you gotta be a mega stud and be very likeable.
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Will being in the top half of the class vs being top 25% put you at a big disadvantage in applying ortho?
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Please comment on how a student who had to remediate a class will be affected provided they can still get a decent board score.
Additionally, what kind of class ranking/grades are programs looking for?
What stats do you need to get a rotation? Do boards trump class rank?
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Dude I already answered this for you on Ortho forum, if you're on the fence about Ortho, just drop it right now, it's too much work, leave it to someone who really wants it. If really want it, would one remidiation really stop you? There's your answer right there. I myself didn't have the best grades, no remediations, but I really wanted it so I went the extra mile for boards.
If you can't be a solid guy with strong work ethic and solid Ortho knowledge on your rotstions, it's a moot point anyway. So many 700s suck because they just walk in with complacency. Don't even get interviews, board scores are not everything.
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If you don't mind, what were your board scores? and out of curiosity, how well did you do on the MCAT? (I want to see if there's a correlation)
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The rules for matching ortho are simple (and this comes from experience and successfully matching)... show up EVERY single day, work your butt off like you never have before. Do not complain, ever,... about anything.... ESPECIALLY other students or the workload. Make sure you read for every case every day, when you get home at night re read the material so it sinks in. Show up EARLY and be the last to leave. NEVER leave before the intern. OFFER to help out with everything and anything, but do not be up their butt too much. Know your anatomy cold, and be able to think through things and reason them out. DO NOT BE AFRAID TO SAY 'I DON'T KNOW BUT I WILL LOOK IT UP AND GET BACK TO YOU LATER OR TOMORROW'... they will know when you're bsing something. Be likable and don't undermine others or try to make them look bad.
Board scores are important yes, it will open the door, but letters of rec are more important. Mainly, it's your work ethic that will get you in or not. I agree with DarkHorizon 100% that many people have 700+ and do not match because they are arrogant or just good test takers. Go in and work your tail off day and night on every single rotation. Remember all the residents of every program know each other, they all rotated together at some point during the audition trail and have become friends. Show them you really want it and do everything you can. That way if you don't match, you know you gave it your all.
Personally, if i had to choose between a student with 700+ top 5% in class and looks great on paper but is lazy, and does't really know their ortho basics and someone who had <500 but worked their butt off and did everything they could to make my life easier and knew their ortho inside and out, I think it's pretty obvious who I would push for.
Plain and simple... go in and work your hardest, show them this is what you really want and do everything you can while you're there for 2 week or a month to show them that. Never rest, you'll have from February on to catch up on sleep and relax AFTER YOU'VE MATCHED... but from JULY through DECEMBER you work work work... Any questions I'd be happy to help. Just PM me.
Board scores are important yes, it will open the door, but letters of rec are more important. Mainly, it's your work ethic that will get you in or not. I agree with DarkHorizon 100% that many people have 700+ and do not match because they are arrogant or just good test takers. Go in and work your tail off day and night on every single rotation. Remember all the residents of every program know each other, they all rotated together at some point during the audition trail and have become friends. Show them you really want it and do everything you can. That way if you don't match, you know you gave it your all.
Personally, if i had to choose between a student with 700+ top 5% in class and looks great on paper but is lazy, and does't really know their ortho basics and someone who had <500 but worked their butt off and did everything they could to make my life easier and knew their ortho inside and out, I think it's pretty obvious who I would push for.
Plain and simple... go in and work your hardest, show them this is what you really want and do everything you can while you're there for 2 week or a month to show them that. Never rest, you'll have from February on to catch up on sleep and relax AFTER YOU'VE MATCHED... but from JULY through DECEMBER you work work work... Any questions I'd be happy to help. Just PM me.
That first paragraph makes you guys sound insane, hah. Maybe hardcore is a better word. I guess I'm just lazy or not passionate about anything.
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First paragraph is just the rules of the game on any audition rotation, not just ortho.
Glad I didn't do any of those, I suppose.
The program probably didn't rank enough people. It happens.
No, most DOs applying for orthopedics apply to AOA programs. Only 6 DOs matched Acgme orthopedics last year.
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So this may be a stupid question but.. why don't more people apply Ortho? I'm guessing there were only 99 DO applicants since there was 1 spot left untaken?
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What makes you think there were only 99 applicants? By the one spot that was not taken, it could easily mean that the program didn't rank enough candidates and so happens to have one spot open while many other ortho programs had many more people than they can fill and thus rejected lower ranked candidates.
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How does "ranking" work? I was thinking that since there was a seat left that they just didn't have over 99 applicants.. but i suppose thats unlikely?
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That program only ranks 3 candidates for 3 spots, one of their candidates ranked another program higher. You need to understand how matching system works, there could be a 1000 applicants for 100 spots and each of them can go unmatched if programs don't rank enough candidates and candidates don't rank enough programs.
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After a programs interviews X amount of candidates, they make a rank list. Candidates also make a rank list of their preferential programs. The match favors the applicants and thus, programs try to sell themselves and make themselves more appealing to nab more highly qualified applicants. From what I understand, the match will always try to match the applicant with his or her first choice. If the applicant ranks highly a program and the program ranks an applicant highly, they end up matching --> student get his or her 1st choice and program gets a highly ranked applicant on their list. This occurs until all spots for that program is filled.
Now say there are more applicants than the number of spots which is usually almost always the case. A higher ranked applicant that also ranked a program highly can kick out a lower ranked applicant of the same program and take his or her spot. The applicant who was kicked out then proceeds to try to get into his or her 2nd ranked spot.
This continues until all spots are filled. Spots that are not filled generally occur when a program did not rank enough applicants and all potential applicants went to other programs because they were ranked higher, effectively stealing all potential candidates away from the program with not enough ranked candidates. Therefore, an empty spot doesn't mean no one was interested in that program. What it means is that all other ranked applicants on that program's list liked the program less than the other ones ranked.
Hope I didn't confuse you too much. It's late and I'm tired.
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People that I know have matched DO Ortho recently had following scores level 1 scores.
595, 601, 601, 634, 614, 564, 544, 602, 675, 470, 437, 558, 510, 495, 558, 616, 655, 538, 622, 436.
595, 601, 601, 634, 614, 564, 544, 602, 675, 470, 437, 558, 510, 495, 558, 616, 655, 538, 622, 436.
There is usually 1.8 applicants per aoa orthopedic spot
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All ortho spots were filled. Corvalis has an "open" spot every year. But call and you'll see it's filled.
The odds to matching ortho aren't in anyone's favor, even if you think you have an "in". For every spot open in a program, there are probably 50-100 kids shooting for it. I know for my program (Meadowlands) had 2 spots, and there were >170 applications for it, which was more than PCOM, Plainview, Harrisburg, and Vineland (all the other AOA ortho programs in the area).
@pattr we are hardcore, but maybe you're just lazy or not passionate about what you're going into...just kidding, I'm glad to hear you didn't have to work hard for your spot. Did you do AOA or ACGME? Regardless I think there are a ton of benefits to working your butt off for a spot and not having it handed to you. It makes you appreciate the hard work you put in and adds value to your spot.
@cliquesh Thanks for the support, you know that you have to bust your neck for everything.
The odds to matching ortho aren't in anyone's favor, even if you think you have an "in". For every spot open in a program, there are probably 50-100 kids shooting for it. I know for my program (Meadowlands) had 2 spots, and there were >170 applications for it, which was more than PCOM, Plainview, Harrisburg, and Vineland (all the other AOA ortho programs in the area).
@pattr we are hardcore, but maybe you're just lazy or not passionate about what you're going into...just kidding, I'm glad to hear you didn't have to work hard for your spot. Did you do AOA or ACGME? Regardless I think there are a ton of benefits to working your butt off for a spot and not having it handed to you. It makes you appreciate the hard work you put in and adds value to your spot.
@cliquesh Thanks for the support, you know that you have to bust your neck for everything.
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There are more than 200 people who apply for ortho, I am not sure where 1.8 came from, esp since places like PCOM have 30 kids that usually go for ortho. Also remember you aren't applying to only one program....
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Yeah that doesn't make sense to me either.. can someone elucidate?
I got the number from the 2011 ogme data report.
It only includes "first choice applicants," however. So it doesn't included people, for example, who applied to urology as their #1 and ortho as their #2.
Anyway, there are 100 spots so that means there are probably 200 or so ortho applicants. There are 38 ortho programs. I wouldn't be surprised if the better programs get applications from nearly all 200 ortho applicants.
Its 1.8 applicants, not applications, per spot.
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Couple thoughts
Whoever said boards aren't a big deal doesn't know what they're talking about. Truth of matter is orthopedic is tough specialty whether DO or MD but there is a clear distinction in the DO world in terms of caliber, prestige, and qualities of programs. Some new programs recently started are strong programs and some are absolute jokes. I am not sure how to say this eloquently but programs such meadowlands are absolute joke of programs so much as to as the past AOAO president, dr. Pollifrone who is also on the accreditation committee for aoa Ortho programs said how meadowlands is one of the weakest if not least caliber program who will most likely not survive past a couple of years. Weak acme programs are still solid because of the strict criteria for acgme. aoa programs don't have the same strict protocol to opening up a program. To say that this year meadowlands had more applicants than some of the higher echelon program such as pinnacle and Pcom is laughable. Coming from the PD of both pinnacle and Pcom, both programs had well over 400 applicants this year. The fact that Umdnj and one of the York programs didn't take incoming interns, it flooded the gates of the other northeast programs. Let's make one thing especially clear, higher echelon programs around the country including doctors, grandview, pinnacle, Pcom, did not even match or seriously consider applicant with low board scores.
It depends on where you want to go. Top programs in no particular order for the AOA world are doctors, pinnacle, Pcom, grandview, riverside, south point. Second tier programs are Plainview, Broward, Umdnj, largo, rest of Ohio andMichigan programs, okc, stl, Tennessee, Modesto, Ventura. Bottom of barrel programs which wouldn't surprise me if they close down same way peninsula shut down would be Vineland and meadowlands. Residents are cool but education is a disaster, and case loads are non existent and that's the sentiments coming from higher ups in AOAO.
I don't mean to be insulting or offensive but it's about time people get back to reality. Matching at any program is difficult but some programs are just bad and should be pointed out. Boards DEF matter much and any notion otherwise should not be taken seriously. Fact of matter is most 700+ board score applicant are matching and are in the majority. There are very very few instances where they don't and where a low score applicant does. If a 700+ doesn't match aoa it's because that gunner is going acgme and matching such as mayo clinic and Cleveland clinic and northwestern for instance.
My stats:
Level 1: 650+
Level 2: 700+
Step 1: 260+
Step 2: 270+
Aoa Ortho match
Whoever said boards aren't a big deal doesn't know what they're talking about. Truth of matter is orthopedic is tough specialty whether DO or MD but there is a clear distinction in the DO world in terms of caliber, prestige, and qualities of programs. Some new programs recently started are strong programs and some are absolute jokes. I am not sure how to say this eloquently but programs such meadowlands are absolute joke of programs so much as to as the past AOAO president, dr. Pollifrone who is also on the accreditation committee for aoa Ortho programs said how meadowlands is one of the weakest if not least caliber program who will most likely not survive past a couple of years. Weak acme programs are still solid because of the strict criteria for acgme. aoa programs don't have the same strict protocol to opening up a program. To say that this year meadowlands had more applicants than some of the higher echelon program such as pinnacle and Pcom is laughable. Coming from the PD of both pinnacle and Pcom, both programs had well over 400 applicants this year. The fact that Umdnj and one of the York programs didn't take incoming interns, it flooded the gates of the other northeast programs. Let's make one thing especially clear, higher echelon programs around the country including doctors, grandview, pinnacle, Pcom, did not even match or seriously consider applicant with low board scores.
It depends on where you want to go. Top programs in no particular order for the AOA world are doctors, pinnacle, Pcom, grandview, riverside, south point. Second tier programs are Plainview, Broward, Umdnj, largo, rest of Ohio andMichigan programs, okc, stl, Tennessee, Modesto, Ventura. Bottom of barrel programs which wouldn't surprise me if they close down same way peninsula shut down would be Vineland and meadowlands. Residents are cool but education is a disaster, and case loads are non existent and that's the sentiments coming from higher ups in AOAO.
I don't mean to be insulting or offensive but it's about time people get back to reality. Matching at any program is difficult but some programs are just bad and should be pointed out. Boards DEF matter much and any notion otherwise should not be taken seriously. Fact of matter is most 700+ board score applicant are matching and are in the majority. There are very very few instances where they don't and where a low score applicant does. If a 700+ doesn't match aoa it's because that gunner is going acgme and matching such as mayo clinic and Cleveland clinic and northwestern for instance.
My stats:
Level 1: 650+
Level 2: 700+
Step 1: 260+
Step 2: 270+
Aoa Ortho match
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Don't you think you could have matched AGCME Ortho with your USMLE scores?
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Jeez...not to thread hijack, but do you mind saying what your methods were to such high step scores? PM if you want.
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Acgme programs are a lot harder to gauge in terms of them telling you if they wil rank you highly or not. Place where I was looking were places that never took a DO and most places especially in northeast won't look at you just because you're a DO. Having said that, it is something I looked into and ended up just ranking one Aoa program and if for whatever reason I didn't get into I would have pursued the acgme ones I wanted. In the end I made the decision that was best for my family and location and a Aoa program that was top tier legitimate.
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Thanks for the post, very helpful. I am just curious as to what your criteria is for "top tier." As a future applicant what criteria should I be using to determine what programs are top tier and which are subpar. Are you placing programs into these specific categories based on case load, fellowship placement, didactic strength, or board scores of matched residents?
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And while we are on the subject, any thoughts on Valley in Vegas, OSU in Tulsa, or Samaritan in Corvallis?
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Oh really? Ingham is a second tier program? How about genesys? How about the oldest program in the country where DO Ortho profession started, henry ford? I bet none of the programs you listed at tops had higher OITE scores than St. John Oakland.
And south pointe is a top program? Really? Their caseload is about as low as it gets anywhere, they get off on their affiliation with CCF.
As for PCOm and Harrisburg, both have residents in 500s, even low 500s.
To all the underclassmen, boards are important, but not everything. I guarantee you this guy wouldn't have matched if he was seen through on his rotstions. Keep your pompous attitude at home when you come at my program, because I would rather take a 500 who is down to earth and hardworking than some know if all 650+.
And I had mid 600s on both my boards.
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When deciding which programs to go to, I was also guilty of going through every forum post trying to find the "best" osteopathic orthopedic residencies. Truth be told that aside from a handful of DO programs, most orthopedic programs are going to train to you become excellent orthopedic surgeon with opportunities for fellowships as well. In reality, there is no "prestige" to different osteopathic programs because let's be honest here, if you name dropped "doctor's columbus" or "harrisburg" to the general public or even the average orthopedic surgeon, they would have no damn clue what you are talking about. I had the opportunity to rotate at a few "top tier" programs, and anyone can tell you that all these programs definitely had some weaknesses as well as strong points that wouldn't put them above another program. It is nearly impossible to make a tier list because the difference in the goals of residencies are just so different sometimes. If you are looking for fellowship opportunities PCOM and Doctor's are obviously known to have great fellowship rates, but a ton of the smaller programs match their applicants to the same places. I think summa western reserve this year matched a guy to Andrew's clinic for sports even though people would think they would only churn out general surgeons. If you're looking for great operative autonomy and becoming a good surgeon, many smaller DO programs offer you the opportunity to operate early and often. Just because they're a smaller program and not in a "big" city doesn't make their training any less than the other programs.
I thought about the idea of going MD and was fortunate enough to get a handful of MD interviews. If you are hellbent on doing research or want to stay in a certain location, I would recommend going MD, but it is a great risk. I found that I would have been a great surgeon at the end of the day at any of the DO places I rotated at. For any the future MD ortho hopefuls, just understand that stats will NOT get as far as you think they would. MD PD's have different criteria than the average DO PD that focuses on the audition rotation and complex scores. Going to an MD Top 15 NIH grant school will have a hundred-fold more influence than your random 260+ usmle scores in regards to MD ortho application progress. Many MD applicants these days take a year off in order to publish and get influential letters of recommendation due to their affiliation with their medical schools' orthopedic academic research departments. Although many of us will have great USMLE scores, grades, and rank, it is often difficult to grab those killer LOR's from distinguished MD's in the field along with publications that really get applicants interviews in the MD match.
And comlex scores? Despite what many will have you believe 600+ is STILL good enough to get into almost every single program. You'll often times hear people saying that so and so's resident class has all 650+, but go ahead and call the secretary of med ed and ask if they'll give you the average comlex score of the incoming resident class. Don't be surprised when they tell you it's 580 or less at some places. That being said, having a high board score will help you, but will not be the deal breaker. Many buddies of mine that matched into the more popular programs were hanging at a low 600 high 500. They were all good people, worked hard, and knew their ortho.
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Is there enough complexity in terms of pathology in ortho where cases need to be shipped out to the university hospital? I always figured most ortho cases could be managed at even the smallest community hospitals...which makes it a pretty cool specialty.
would love to hear how you determined top programs.. my experience at many of the places you ranked as top tier must have been completely different.. Heck I thought one of your top tier programs had the worse trained seniors out there. Of course we don't have any information on who you are --med student/resident?? that would be nice as it helps us determine the validity of your data. And how do you know the sentiments coming from the higher ups in AOAO? I got a question for you to ask them if you truly do
I had poor experiences at the allopathic programs I rotated through. Great didactics, boards, fellowship opportunities, teaching staff but the surgical skills were lacking behind the DO residents 1-2 years. probably after 5-10 years post graduate its a wash though. In a nut shell I chose to go the AOA route because I felt surgically I would get better experience at the bread and butter ortho procedures. I also chose a newer program to help exposure as well. needless to say as an intern i've done skin to skin cases that some 3rd years haven't even done at other programs (TFNs, hemi's, distal radius, ankle, gobs of knee and shoulder scopes, rotator cuff repairs, meniscectomy, chondroplasty, clavicle, IM rod of tibia and femur, lis franc -- i have yet to do a total joint all the way through though). Just the nature of different programs. Will they be bad residents and ultimately bad physicians - NO, not at all.. I think I'll just be more comfortable with the procedures earlier in my career. Hopefully I can turn that into an advantage though.
I agree boards mean a lot, research means a lot, who you know means a lot, etc, etc.. Getting into orthopedics is extremely difficult.DO ANYTHING and EVERYTHING that will help your chances. Focusing on just one aspect is a sure fire way to not match. You need to be excellent in all areas, or at least have tried to be excellent. Work your butt off and let the chips fall where they may.
To medical students wondering if you should go into Ortho... if you want it, go for it no matter what your board scores are.. if they are weaker add in research and know orthopedics inside and out to have an outstanding audition rotation, start making contacts now, ask the PDs if you can show up for morning didactics or fracture conferences,e tc.. starting learning fracture patterns,classifications, OR etiquette, suturing skills, etc now. You can find a spot, its tougher but the rewards are phenomenal --- Kaiser's base pay for incoming ortho last year was 600K with a 100K student loan bonus, 2% cumulative retirement fund per year of work with minimum of 15 years for qualification (so 15 years is 30% = roughly 175K retirement), malpractice paid.. just one opportunity i've been looking at. and personally it will only get better when we have a larger population with insurance to pay for acute fracture care (i think there is opportunity with obamacare, not my favorite but I for sure will try hard to take advantage of it)
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This is false. Im one of the 5s at the program that still has one spot open. We didn't rank enough people
