Our Soldiers Need Us.

[DogFaceMedic]

Our Soldiers Need Us.

Defeatism and pessimism is the wrong approach when frustrated by gov’t bureaucracies.

Surrendering to the bureaucrats and encouraging others to quit or avoid service, is a disservice to the soldiers who need us now.

For those who want to serve, there are many opportunities to do great things – even if that service is only for a few months or several years.

Saluting a fat nurse does not bother me – it makes them feel important and they leave me alone. I don’t let my own need for prestige interfere with my responsibilities to patients or other staff, regardless if others view pts and enlisted as white trash or gangsters. I like them all.

It is better to be a part of the solution, rather than whining about the problem.

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[USAFdoc]

Our Soldiers Need Us.

Defeatism and pessimism is the wrong approach when frustrated by gov’t bureaucracies.

Surrendering to the bureaucrats and encouraging others to quit or avoid service, is a disservice to the soldiers who need us now.

For those who want to serve, there are many opportunities to do great things – even if that service is only for a few months or several years.

Saluting a fat nurse does not bother me – it makes them feel important and they leave me alone. I don’t let my own need for prestige interfere with my responsibilities to patients or other staff, regardless if others view pts and enlisted as white trash or gangsters. I like them all.

It is better to be a part of the solution, rather than whining about the problem.

and sometimes part of the solution is to leave the problem.

Sometimes part of the problem is staying and "enabling" the same status quo to continue.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

and sometimes part of the solution is to leave the problem.

Sometimes part of the problem is staying and "enabling" the same status quo to continue.

Enabling? Nonsense.
Soldiers need us, I'll help.

 

[former military]

and sometimes part of the solution is to leave the problem.

Sometimes part of the problem is staying and "enabling" the same status quo to continue.

It is an unfixable problem. It would need to go away entirely and be replaced by civilian health care then re-created. Nobody could sustain the momentum to fix the problem during their career. When someone with the right mentality gets high enough in the chain to do something they are either ready to retire or morphed into the problem like a politician.

As a civilian doctor I wake up every day and thank God I don't have to go work in that dysfunctional system. It is easy to be a rah rah medical student but spend 4-5 years battling to do the right thing everyday, begging people to do the minimum, swimming up stream and you will crack. Alternatively, you can buy in.... not care about wasting money on 2000$ fax machines for your clinic that you could buy at staple for $300 and the 25 admin days a year you can't see patients because the military wants you to "train" or "unofficial down-days".

Good luck

 

[NavyFP]

It is an unfixable problem. It would need to go away entirely and be replaced by civilian health care then re-created. Nobody could sustain the momentum to fix the problem during their career. When someone with the right mentality gets high enough in the chain to do something they are either ready to retire or morphed into the problem like a politician.

As a civilian doctor I wake up every day and thank God I don't have to go work in that dysfunctional system. It is easy to be a rah rah medical student but spend 4-5 years battling to do the right thing everyday, begging people to do the minimum, swimming up stream and you will crack. Alternatively, you can buy in.... not care about wasting money on 2000$ fax machines for your clinic that you could buy at staple for $300 and the 25 admin days a year you can't see patients because the military wants you to "train" or "unofficial down-days".

Good luck

I do not believe it is unfixable, there are different headaches, but it is life I have chosen. I have been fighting the fight for 12 years now, I will continue to do my best to change that over which I have influence. I do occasionally post small victories. This war will be won with a screwdriver, although a sledge hammer would be helpful. I understand why people leave, but I am not there yet.

 

[RICEman]

you just have to shut up to avoid trouble and not get involve in the stupid problems whatnot....(well, that's what I did as an E5 dude that worked nights most of the time... )



I noticed that many officers and some senior enlisted managers knew what the issues were....

 

[USAFdoc]

Enabling? Nonsense.
Soldiers need us, I'll help.

the people making decisions on the most important aspects of my military medical clinic do so without ever having stepped foot in my clinic, without ever having done my job, without ever having spoken with me, without ever having replied to problems and solutions I provided for those problems.

the people making these decisons do so by looking into the computer monitor on their desk and deciding if this months metrics are good or bad.

frankly, that system, in todays military medical world, is destined for failure, poor patient care, frustrated patients, and doctors counting down the days till DOS.

I gave the military 100% for the years I was there, and I thank God everyday that I now can serve my patients as part of a high quality healthcare system, and not the many times fraudulent healthcare system most of the military now is stuck with.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I do not believe it is unfixable, there are different headaches, but it is life I have chosen. I have been fighting the fight for 12 years now, I will continue to do my best to change that over which I have influence. I do occasionally post small victories. This war will be won with a screwdriver, although a sledge hammer would be helpful. I understand why people leave, but I am not there yet.

YOu have a healthy perspective; and, sorry, I meant our Sailors too (and Marines Panda Bear.)

No one is disagreeing with the substantive problems. Yet, surrender to pessimism and defeatism does nothing for those who need our services.

Unhealthy attitudes include resentment at rank, pre-judgmental views of the enlisted or dependents, insisting on being called Dr rather than rank, etc.

We can do a lot in clinics and in the field with our individual medical authority; so, let's do it.

 

[DropkickMurphy]

Our Soldiers Need Us.

Defeatism and pessimism is the wrong approach when frustrated by gov’t bureaucracies.

Surrendering to the bureaucrats and encouraging others to quit or avoid service, is a disservice to the soldiers who need us now.

For those who want to serve, there are many opportunities to do great things – even if that service is only for a few months or several years.

Saluting a fat nurse does not bother me – it makes them feel important and they leave me alone. I don’t let my own need for prestige interfere with my responsibilities to patients or other staff, regardless if others view pts and enlisted as white trash or gangsters. I like them all.

It is better to be a part of the solution, rather than whining about the problem.

It's always good to hear from someone who is either a recruiter or just too blind to see the ignorance of their own stance.

 

[Mirror Form]

Unhealthy attitudes include resentment at rank, pre-judgmental views of the enlisted or dependents, insisting on being called Dr rather than rank, etc.

Are you a physician in the military? If anybody tries calling me by my rank I immediately correct them. And that includes people higher ranking then me (assuming they're not above me in my real chain of command, that is my med department).

Sorry Lt Col Nurse, but's doctor, not captain. And no, your rank won't let you force me to admit this patient just so you can go home earlier (although you always try).

 

[IgD]

I don't think it is defeatism and pessimism. I think it's more like protesting and acting out. Refusing to acknowledge your rank is sort of like throwing your ribbons or getting a "FTN" tatoo. Most of the crap here is trolling. Even so I can understand why military physicians are unhappy. Acting out just makes it worse. I agree with NavyFP. You've got to work within the system to slowly change it over time.

 

[i want out]

I don't think it is defeatism and pessimism. I think it's more like protesting and acting out. Refusing to acknowledge your rank is sort of like throwing your ribbons or getting a "FTN" tatoo. Most of the crap here is trolling. Even so I can understand why military physicians are unhappy. Acting out just makes it worse. I agree with NavyFP. You've got to work within the system to slowly change it over time.

"When you dance with the devil, the devil don't change. The devil changes you."

Maybe some will call it defeatism, but the Navy is 200 years of tradition unhampered by progress. I know better than to think that I am going to change tradition.

I prefer to think of it as being realistic about the expectation that I will not effect significant enough change to warrant burning myself out.

I want out

 

[DropkickMurphy]

I got in trouble for refusing a promotion and for turning down medals.

BTW, I never had a problem with any doc giving me grief for being enlisted. I actually caught much more hell from other enlisted personnel than I ever received from an officer.

 

[Croooz]

I actually caught much more hell from other enlisted personnel than I ever received from an officer.

Ain't that the truth!

Even so I can understand why military physicians are unhappy...

I'm confused. Why would you say military physicians? It makes it sound as though you aren't one. Might want to keep closer tabs on your posts. You're beginning to unravel.

DogFace,
The issue with what you are talking about and the issues that are usually presented are not the same. You are talking about the unit level care, which no one hear has/had problems providing. You also mention rank/title which in my years in the military was never a problem with the physicians. Even today working with military physicians rank/title isn't the problem as much as having the money and support staff to do the job.

Turning to an overly optimistic/simplistic viewpoint of military medicine is the view recruiters take or reservists. Pointing to self-esteem issues is a red herring. The military medical system is the problem. Elitists, racists, gang bangers, nurses......are just surface....the root of the problem is what is usually posted about by those who were active duty. The backwards mindset that those in the know....know and "this is how we do it in the military". They only know that everything's fine but now that the scholarship numbers are off are they thinking that their might be a problem. Unfortunately they merely attribute this drop to Iraq.

Our troops deserve the best care but a "just suck it up" attitude doesn't make it happen. You can bust your butt at the unit level for 3-4 years but once the players change what then? It's "do over" time. How many duty stations and how many years till you realize that unit level change will be the most you can do? How much money out of your own pocket will it take till it sinks in that once you leave the next CO or your replacement will not carry on with your change? Your lucky if you can get all your corpsmen on the same sheet of music much less those above you.

Defeatism? If you believe you can create change and have that change move UP the chain of command you are delusional at best. The troops deserve great care but the money that determines that is dictated here in DC. There is money to go to Lebanon but our troops lack equipment for the war??? Those military officials in power are looking at the bigger picture but make their decisions to appease some number crunching politician. Quite honestly by the time the generals get the "word" of what's going on the word has been spun into an outright lie...which the Generals point to and say "see it's fine."

I'm sorry but the ostrich defense of burying your head in the sand just doesn't fly anymore. Military medicine needs massive change. Unfortunately for the military that change will only come from the outside. Yes at the unit level a doc can do quite a bit. However higher than that it isn't going to happen.

Our soldiers need us to be there for them.....not lie down and just nurse their wounds.

 

[8744]

I never quite understood why the military has Family Medicine Physicians, OB-Gyns, and other primary care. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just buy regular health insurance for military personnel and their families and just maintain a cadre of combat-care related physicians, nurses, and support people?

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I never quite understood why the military has Family Medicine Physicians, OB-Gyns, and other primary care. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just buy regular health insurance for military personnel and their families and just maintain a cadre of combat-care related physicians, nurses, and support people?

They are doing that. It is more cost effective. It is called Tricare.

 

[IgD]

I'm confused. Why would you say military physicians? It makes it sound as though you aren't one. Might want to keep closer tabs on your posts. You're beginning to unravel.

Turning to an overly optimistic/simplistic viewpoint of military medicine is the view recruiters take or reservists...

I'm sorry but the ostrich defense of burying your head in the sand just doesn't fly anymore...

Do you realize that whenever you can't back up your arguments you result to personal insults like suggesting I'm not a physician?

Your comments go both ways. Beating the military medicine is bad drum is an overly simplified and distorted view of military medicine. That approach suggests that you have your head in the sand. The truth is there are some things that military medicine does well but there are things that need to be fixed too.

As physicians we need to identify the areas that need fixed. We need to communicate and lobby effectively for the changes. Most importantly we need to work together and not alienate others to effect change.

 

[IgD]

I never quite understood why the military has Family Medicine Physicians, OB-Gyns, and other primary care. Wouldn't it be more cost-effective to just buy regular health insurance for military personnel and their families and just maintain a cadre of combat-care related physicians, nurses, and support people?

I think one of the main reasons is deployments. If you are a military physician you can be ordered on a deployment. As a contractor you could refuse to go. I suspect another big reason is history. It would be interesting to hear a military historian discuss the roots of the medical corps.

The Navy has had a strong committment to GME. In order to have GME, you have to have all those specialties especially peds. I think the Navy tried to do away with peds at one of the MTFs but discovered that all residencies require a peds rotation.

Based on the discussion in the Tricare reimbursements thread, I suspect it would be a lot more expensive for the military to contract out private pay insurance. The problem is the military would have to pay 100% of costs for active duty and dependents. Private citizens have to pay co-pays and deductibles. Unscrupulous people would prey on the military and its personnel as cash cows.

 

[Croooz]

It makes it sound as though you aren't one. Might want to keep closer tabs on your posts. You're beginning to unravel.

Do you realize that whenever you can't back up your arguments you result to personal insults like suggesting I'm not a physician?

Your post is the one which suggests you aren't a physician. I pointed out how your own words paint the picture that you aren't a physician. If that post was insulting then how do you recover from the real attacks you get?

How in the world do you expect physicians to lobby for better military medicine when as a group physicians have allowed themselves to get stepped on? Let's face it that physicians will complain about the wrongs they see but inevidibly will get back to work doing what they went to school and training for. Lobbying and other things are left to those who have the time and money.

The areas have been identified. There isn't anything I read about here that I didn't see first hand. The discussions/venting done here is the same I heard in my time in the Navy. The physician would do his best while he was there but the next physician would have a different idea of what needed to get fixed.

What I see are physicians looking to make change. This ends after 4-6 years in the service.

Then there are those who've realized that the only way to make changes are to give up clinical medicine and become administrators. Unfortunately to affect change requires rank, which translates into playing the Potomac 2 step. If these physicians ever attain the rank they wanted to affect change, now their focus has changed and they never get around to making the changes they sought out to.

Then there are those physicians who don't want to play the game they just want to practice medicine. Most get out and don't look back except to warn others.

Finally there are the ones who had no clue what they were getting into and just float on by till it's time to get out or retire.

The answers aren't difficult it's the huge amount of inertia that needs to be overcome to make the changes happen. There's enough to military life without adding "revamp military medicine" to the to-do list. This is why the influx of new blood keeps the dead body of military medicine afloat. If it were to die then there would be change. Our soldiers would get medical care because the military would contract out for it...lowest bidder of course. However the military has been doing contracting for years so what does it matter.

 

[USAFdoc]

As physicians we need to identify the areas that need fixed. We need to communicate and lobby effectively for the changes.

effective lobbying demands that one have adequate leverage/power to persuade the party you communicate with to consider your proposals. In the military, physicians have near zero power on that level. The biggest motivating factor doctors can use to impliment change is to leave the military. That is unfortunate, but true.

 

[i want out]

effective lobbying demands that one have adequate leverage/power to persuade the party you communicate with to consider your proposals. In the military, physicians have near zero power on that level. The biggest motivating factor doctors can use to impliment change is to leave the military. That is unfortunate, but true.

Perhaps the leverage is not just the exodus of those of us that don't have the energy to tilt at the windmills anymore?

The leverage comes in making the system lose viability. We already see that happening with the loss of recruiting. With the deficit in numbers accepting HPSP, we may actually see some changes.

Unfortunately, one of the changes that is likely to be a knee jerk reaction, is a stop loss.
If you think there are disgruntled folks in military medicine now, just wait until they put a stop loss on and all the folks that have contracts for either jobs, or residency on the civilian side lose them...

i want out

 

[former military]

If a patient asked you, "If I get herpes how would I treat it?" You would say... "the best way is not to get it". How do you fix the military medicine problem? "For the individual the fix is easy.... don't join"

Interesting USA today article on the Iraqi insurgents plan to wage psychological war-- Snipers specifically target Chaplains and doctors". To most, that is not all that appealing.

 

[IgD]

effective lobbying demands that one have adequate leverage/power to persuade the party you communicate with to consider your proposals. In the military, physicians have near zero power on that level. The biggest motivating factor doctors can use to impliment change is to leave the military. That is unfortunate, but true.

Why don't you start an X-military medicine interest group and advocate for change in a positive way? It would probably be pretty easy to recruit members and have a monthly publication criticizing military medicine. Doesn't the AMA have a military action committee?

 

[USAFdoc]

Why don't you start an X-military medicine interest group and advocate for change in a positive way? It would probably be pretty easy to recruit members and have a monthly publication criticizing military medicine. Doesn't the AMA have a military action committee?

If I thought that would make a difference, I'd do it.

 

[Galo]

This is part of the same argument we have experienced first hand being refuted by well meaning, but extremely naive, misguided people with little to no operational experience.

There is no militarily correct way to complain, discuss, or effect change other than at your immediate level, and that is sometimes impossible. People here who throw dirt and belittle us for not using the "system", really have no idea what that system is like. Its designed to favor the ones in power, and keep the status quo period. The originator of this thread has the right idea that our soldiers need us, and deserve the best. The problem is they get the worst. It is not because we are unpatriotic, and totally bash the trash that is military medicine now, it is because of multiple reasons amongst the top being money, and the military mindset. This mindset is something that will never work with medicine. All of us on active duty have offered multiple suggestions on how to make the system better while we were in. More than not, we were labeled as trouble makers, instigators, and whiners, by the very people whose job it is to keep mediocracy as the standard of care.

We will argue, and name call, and mostly between people with knowledge and experience, and those with little to non. Meantime, the American soldier will continue to experience substandard medical care in many aspects, (not all), and we will continue to believe that unless military medicine is totally starved of its life blood, the ignorant medical student, this travesty will continue for a long time in world that more and more seems on the brink of another major global conflict.

I am glad as hell I am out. But I do feel regret that those people fighting for us, are getting substandard care. That is a crime.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

I unwisely had some down time on vacation and chose to use part of it by looking at SDN.

My experiences include considerable tme out of medicine, and I am distressed at the degree of elitism in our field which leads to such exaggerated vitriol.

I will not give up on the soldiers because of the bureaucrats.

I am not a recruiter and those who choose insults and pessimism need to pull their head out of their fourth point of contact. If i was in charge all Docs would go through basic training before med school to loose the arrogance.

Back to fishing.

 

[Mirror Form]

I unwisely had some down time on vacation and chose to use part of it by looking at SDN.

My experiences include considerable tme out of medicine, and I am distressed at the degree of elitism in our field which leads to such exaggerated vitriol.

I will not give up on the soldiers because of the bureaucrats.

I am not a recruiter and those who choose insults and pessimism need to pull their head out of their fourth point of contact. If i was in charge all Docs would go through basic training before med school to loose the arrogance.

Back to fishing.

So what are you exactly? Are you a doctor, med student, or what? I'm assuming that you're not a doctor b/c if you were you hopefully would have said so (also, it would be next to impossible for you to have your current opinion unless you left clinical medicine a long time ago).

Your attitude is very common for people with prior military service who are early in med school, or in medically related fields in the military. Afterall, when you're crawling around in mud for weeks at a time at some army training school with soldiers who are all preparing to risk their lives for our country, it's hard to feel sorry for the doc's who are whining about things like not enough ancillary staff. Heck, the fact that so many are initially indignant upon seeing the POV's here isn't surprising at all. But you can't relate to the viewpoint of a physician w/o finishing med school, internship, etc. You have no idea how difficult and stressful our job is. Nor can you understand the types of sacrifice it requires. All of the people I know who used to have your viewpoint, and then finished up medschool and internship, ended up changing their opinions.

 

[Monty Python]

So what are you exactly? Are you a doctor, med student, or what? I'm assuming that you're not a doctor b/c if you were you hopefully would have said so (also, it would be next to impossible for you to have your current opinion unless you left clinical medicine a long time ago).

Your attitude is very common for people with prior military service who are early in med school, or in medically related fields in the military. Afterall, when you're crawling around in mud for weeks at a time at some army training school with soldiers who are all preparing to risk their lives for our country, it's hard to feel sorry for the doc's who are whining about things like not enough ancillary staff. Heck, the fact that so many are initially indignant upon seeing the POV's here isn't surprising at all. But you can't relate to the viewpoint of a physician w/o finishing med school, internship, etc. You have no idea how difficult and stressful our job is. Nor can you understand the types of sacrifice it requires. All of the people I know who used to have your viewpoint, and then finished up medschool and internship, ended up changing their opinions.

That gets the Nobel Prize for diplomatic, concise, informative, and objective editorialism. Well done.

 

[i want out]

So what are you exactly? Are you a doctor, med student, or what? I'm assuming that you're not a doctor b/c if you were you hopefully would have said so (also, it would be next to impossible for you to have your current opinion unless you left clinical medicine a long time ago).

Your attitude is very common for people with prior military service who are early in med school, or in medically related fields in the military. Afterall, when you're crawling around in mud for weeks at a time at some army training school with soldiers who are all preparing to risk their lives for our country, it's hard to feel sorry for the doc's who are whining about things like not enough ancillary staff. Heck, the fact that so many are initially indignant upon seeing the POV's here isn't surprising at all. But you can't relate to the viewpoint of a physician w/o finishing med school, internship, etc. You have no idea how difficult and stressful our job is. Nor can you understand the types of sacrifice it requires. All of the people I know who used to have your viewpoint, and then finished up medschool and internship, ended up changing their opinions.

I was a heck of a lot more gung-ho and pro Navy when I was a med student.

Now that I have a little more perspective...

my name pretty much says it all

i want out

 

[former military]

I unwisely had some down time on vacation and chose to use part of it by looking at SDN.

My experiences include considerable tme out of medicine, and I am distressed at the degree of elitism in our field which leads to such exaggerated vitriol.

I will not give up on the soldiers because of the bureaucrats.

I am not a recruiter and those who choose insults and pessimism need to pull their head out of their fourth point of contact. If i was in charge all Docs would go through basic training before med school to loose the arrogance.

Back to fishing.

sounds like some past enlisted inferiority complex... did some doctor yell at you as an enlisted troop?

 

[DropkickMurphy]

More than likely he actually is a recruiter. Anyhow, it sounds like he's through. To let this thread die a lingering death is my suggestion.....

 

[orbitsurgMD]

I unwisely had some down time on vacation and chose to use part of it by looking at SDN.

My experiences include considerable tme out of medicine, and I am distressed at the degree of elitism in our field which leads to such exaggerated vitriol.

I will not give up on the soldiers because of the bureaucrats.

I am not a recruiter and those who choose insults and pessimism need to pull their head out of their fourth point of contact. If i was in charge all Docs would go through basic training before med school to loose the arrogance.

Back to fishing.

Enthusiasm is one thing; go enjoy. But labelling as merely arrogant those who feel differently than you do and who have real feet-on-the-ground experience to back it up is just stupidity and ignorance.

A taste of responsibility in an atmosphere of dereliction and failure to support will give you a different perspective.

 

[RICEman]

sounds like some past enlisted inferiority complex... did some doctor yell at you as an enlisted troop?

DogFace's view might sound ridiculous/exagerrated .......
.but pointing enlisteds having some form of complex is condescinding and harsh. Maybe the doctor himself is insecure?

Most of my former officers were respectable md's.(paths, gen surgs)

Unfortunately, I have had bad experiences/relationship with GMO's in clinics who expect a lab culture (tx culture/sens) turn around time of 25 minutes.....
Mostly, I think it's funny

I still think there are bad apples on both sides..

 

[NavyFP]

I still think there are bad apples on both sides..

Indeed.

 

[DogFaceMedic]

How is everyone doing? I had some great fishing -- caught a lot of hamburgers.

I hoped for a more pragmatic discussion rather than some more poor, insulting, useless mischaracterizations. There would be some disbelief if I listed my CV. But, that would kind of defeat the purpose of this kind of forum: especially since I have, do, or will work with many of the posters here.

I will say that I am not, never was, nor ever will be a recruiter.

Nonetheless, there is a real problem not addressed by all those who hate military medicine: namely, it will not simply go away as long as there is a government, so we must do something in order to better serve our soldiers. Taking our marbles/football/baseball (choose your playgraound metaphor) and going home does not help anyone. I actually have some positive ideas to alleviate some of the problems. At least everyone who has worked or served with the military or the VA is permanently cured of the idea of socialized medicine.

Think about it. If those who want military/government medicine to fall apart get what they wish for (which in itself is Quixotic), how long will it take to create a new system and what would it look like? Would there instantly be better service? I would hope so, but will the government run it, then we are back at square one? And, how long will the soldiers, dependents, and retirees be without healthcare? The end of military medicine is neither pragmatic public policy nor a solution, but rather a reflection of personal frustration which does nothing for our soldiers. (I detect a theme here about service to our soldiers.)

Should we suggest no one serve at all during wartime because the government is too bureaucratic and hurts the spirit of the intellectual elite? So, should we advocate no one join the infantry as well? Or, should the plain trash with inferiority complexes and no better prospects in life protect us, whilst the elite shall have the luxury to refuse based on their feelings? (I am not advocating a draft; I like the nature of the volunteer force. The modern infantry is too complex and requires too much dedication for draftees to accomplish.)

Last thought: to those who served and hated it: thanks for your service, you have done so honorably in an imperfect system. If a reader is thinking of joining, talk to people who have served directly. This forum is inaccurately vitriolic.

Back to fishing.

 

[Mirror Form]

How is everyone doing? I had some great fishing -- caught a lot of hamburgers.

That's great for you. I've been working 14-15 hour days all week and weekend. Of course nobody in my clinic stays late except the docs.

Sorry if I'm being rude, but it's apparent that you're not a physician, and most non-physician healthcare professionals really have no clue what our job is like. Even ones that work with us everyday.

I hoped for a more pragmatic discussion rather than some more poor, insulting, useless mischaracterizations. There would be some disbelief if I listed my CV. But, that would kind of defeat the purpose of this kind of forum: especially since I have, do, or will work with many of the posters here.

Since you're a newcomer to this board, you probably haven't noticed an ongoing trend. That is, the idealistic people like yourself are usually extremely vague about their experience. This leads many to assume that they don't have much experience as docors in the military.

So no, your CV probably wouldn't be very surprising because most of us have figured out by now that you aren't a doctor. Furthermore, giving at least some details about your experience would in no way, shape, or form defeat the purpose of this forum. Quite the contrary, many people on this website (and not just in the military med forum) are open about their jobs, which lends more credence to their advice. I'm not asking for where you're stationed. Just tell us what you do. Otherwise, why should anyone on here listen to a thing you say?

Nonetheless, there is a real problem not addressed by all those who hate military medicine: namely, it will not simply go away as long as there is a government, so we must do something in order to better serve our soldiers. Taking our marbles/football/baseball (choose your playgraound metaphor) and going home does not help anyone. I actually have some positive ideas to alleviate some of the problems. At least everyone who has worked or served with the military or the VA is permanently cured of the idea of socialized medicine.

Think about it. If those who want military/government medicine to fall apart get what they wish for (which in itself is Quixotic), how long will it take to create a new system and what would it look like? Would there instantly be better service? I would hope so, but will the government run it, then we are back at square one? And, how long will the soldiers, dependents, and retirees be without healthcare? The end of military medicine is neither pragmatic public policy nor a solution, but rather a reflection of personal frustration which does nothing for our soldiers. (I detect a theme here about service to our soldiers.)

Posters on here have varying opinions. IMHO, what it basically comes down to is that the military will not improve their current system unless they have to. As long as people continue to sign up, the system WILL NOT CHANGE.

Due to the military's inability to fill HPSP slots, they may have to actually improve the treatment of physicians (gasp). For example, after spending 14+ years of working your a$$ off to become a board certified surgeon, would you want to be stationed at a place where you couldn't get enough OR time to keep your skills?

BTW, while the navy and army can't fill their HPSP slots, the Air Force is having no problems doing so. Could it be b/c they treat their personel better?????

Should we suggest no one serve at all during wartime because the government is too bureaucratic and hurts the spirit of the intellectual elite? So, should we advocate no one join the infantry as well? Or, should the plain trash with inferiority complexes and no better prospects in life protect us, whilst the elite shall have the luxury to refuse based on their feelings? (I am not advocating a draft; I like the nature of the volunteer force. The modern infantry is too complex and requires too much dedication for draftees to accomplish.)

The above discusion has nothing to do with any of the issues facing military medicine. Perhaps you should look into them before giving advice to us. Once again, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude. But how would you like it if someone who didn't do your job began telling you and your coworkers how you should feel about it?

 

[IgD]

I hoped for a more pragmatic discussion rather than some more poor, insulting, useless mischaracterizations.

Your expectations are too high. This forum is really a support group for broken military doctors.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

Your expectations are too high. This forum is really a support group for broken military doctors.

And you IgD are one of the frequent contributors. Are you still military? Are you a doctor? Could you be one of the "broken" ones?

The contributors who are former military don't seem broken at all.

 

[IgD]

And you IgD are one of the frequent contributors. Are you still military? Are you a doctor? Could you be one of the "broken" ones?

The contributors who are former military don't seem broken at all.

Today I heard someone comment on leadership: Never give criticism without providing an alternative solution that is validated, viable, sustainable and flexible. See the problem is that you guys give criticism that is not constructive. The end result of such misdirected criticism is your leadership and credibility are undermined.

I think DogFaceMedic is calling you guys on this.

As far as my background, I've posted on it before. You may want to read the forum a little more closely.

 

[militarymd]

Today I heard someone comment on leadership: Never give criticism without providing an alternative solution that is validated, viable, sustainable and flexible. See the problem is that you guys give criticism that is not constructive. The end result of such misdirected criticism is your leadership and credibility are undermined.

I think DogFaceMedic is calling you guys on this.

As far as my background, I've posted on it before. You may want to read the forum a little more closely.

Sounds like the typical Navy nurse corp rah, rah, rah, speech from someone who writes point papers, but don't know how to put an IV in.

 

[IgD]

Sounds like the typical Navy nurse corp rah, rah, rah, speech from someone who writes point papers, but don't know how to put an IV in.

It was by a non-physician senior executive type. He is an intellectual type well read in both literature and journals. He is successful and well respected by his peers. He was talking about corporate structure and effective leadership strategy.

 

[militarymd]

It was by a non-physician senior executive type. He is an intellectual type well read in both literature and journals. He is successful and well respected by his peers. He was talking about corporate structure and effective leadership strategy.

Whatever you say.....

 

[chopper]

It was by a non-physician senior executive type. He is an intellectual type well read in both literature and journals. He is successful and well respected by his peers. He was talking about corporate structure and effective leadership strategy.

IgD - I think you will find that great leaders do use your little formula. Watching them in action makes you stop and look at them in awe, at what they can accomplish. Unfortunately, great leaders are few and far between. I saw examples of maybe 2 or 3 in 7+ years in the military. Most others run the gamut from OK to total crap heads.

Great leader: If you bring a problem to their attention a problem and a workable, but difficult solution - they will make a decision and take action. If they don't want to do it, they will tell you why AND convince you. If they want to do it, it becomes THEIR mission.

OK/mediocre/crap leader: They will not ever take on your mission as theirs. Just doesn't happen. How they deal with it depends on how they fall on the OK/mediocre/crap scale. But you will never get anything difficult done unless they are told by their bosses.

Great idea in theory. But most people will never run into a great leader during their stint.

So - you need to realize that the only change comes from ABOVE. Change the minds of the DECISION MAKERS. And what do they look at? Big issue things - how many doctors coming in/leaving.

 

[orbitsurgMD]

As far as my background, I've posted on it before. You may want to read the forum a little more closely.

IgD, I will call B.S. on you right there.

You have not posted anything about your qualifications except oblique references to "chief resident". You have never posted what your residency was in, if you are being truthful about having been a resident. What your problem with confirming that you went to some sort of professional school is, I can only guess. I doubt anyone reading here cares where you work; I don't.

Our memories here aren't deficient, and anyway it is easy enough to verify exactly what you have posted about yourself. So cut the crap.

 

[former military]

That's great for you. I've been working 14-15 hour days all week and weekend. Of course nobody in my clinic stays late except the docs.

Sorry if I'm being rude, but it's apparent that you're not a physician, and most non-physician healthcare professionals really have no clue what our job is like. Even ones that work with us everyday.



Since you're a newcomer to this board, you probably haven't noticed an ongoing trend. That is, the idealistic people like yourself are usually extremely vague about their experience. This leads many to assume that they don't have much experience as docors in the military.

So no, your CV probably wouldn't be very surprising because most of us have figured out by now that you aren't a doctor. Furthermore, giving at least some details about your experience would in no way, shape, or form defeat the purpose of this forum. Quite the contrary, many people on this website (and not just in the military med forum) are open about their jobs, which lends more credence to their advice. I'm not asking for where you're stationed. Just tell us what you do. Otherwise, why should anyone on here listen to a thing you say?



Posters on here have varying opinions. IMHO, what it basically comes down to is that the military will not improve their current system unless they have to. As long as people continue to sign up, the system WILL NOT CHANGE.

Due to the military's inability to fill HPSP slots, they may have to actually improve the treatment of physicians (gasp). For example, after spending 14+ years of working your a$$ off to become a board certified surgeon, would you want to be stationed at a place where you couldn't get enough OR time to keep your skills?





The above discusion has nothing to do with any of the issues facing military medicine. Perhaps you should look into them before giving advice to us. Once again, I'm sorry if I'm coming across as rude. But how would you like it if someone who didn't do your job began telling you and your coworkers how you should feel about it?

The AF doesn't treat their people better at all. Especially at David Grant Medical Center and I am happy to cite specifics.... I am recruiting some physicians who still work there to come on and give their views of AF medicine, repeated deployments, overwork at home, lack of respect, and how to disenfranchise a patient....
more to come.

 

[USAFdoc]

The AF doesn't treat their people better at all. Especially at David Grant Medical Center and I am happy to cite specifics.... I am recruiting some physicians who still work there to come on and give their views of AF medicine, repeated deployments, overwork at home, lack of respect, and how to disenfranchise a patient....
more to come.

I had hoped that the major FP centers in the USAF were not as bad as the small clinics I had more experience with; I guess not.

And, I would encourage those doctors (myself included) to be gentle with those posters on this site that still promote the "good" in military medicine, after all, if I hadn't seen what I did with my own eyes, I would not have believed how bad things have gotten either.

 

[Mirror Form]

The AF doesn't treat their people better at all. Especially at David Grant Medical Center and I am happy to cite specifics.... I am recruiting some physicians who still work there to come on and give their views of AF medicine, repeated deployments, overwork at home, lack of respect, and how to disenfranchise a patient....
more to come.

Overall the airforce does treat it's personel better. For example, in the AF you're much more likely to get paid on time, have air conditioning when deployed to the desert, have shorter deployments versus the army's 12 month long ones (where some of your hard earned skills may atrophy), GME is more organized (eg, the Air Force actually lets people know ahead of time how many slots will be open for civilian deferrments, whereas in the army it's a huge secret if there will even be any), the air force pays it's ancillary staff more and hence gets better ancillary staff (although they're probably still pretty undermanned), etc . . . .

I think these are all reasons why the army is having trouble recruiting for hpsp.

 

[USAFdoc]

Overall the airforce does treat it's personel better. For example, in the AF you're much more likely to get paid on time, have air conditioning when deployed to the desert, have shorter deployments versus the army's 12 month long ones (where some of your hard earned skills may atrophy), GME is more organized (eg, the Air Force actually lets people know ahead of time how many slots will be open for civilian deferrments, whereas in the army it's a huge secret if there will even be any), the air force pays it's ancillary staff more and hence gets better ancillary staff (although they're probably still pretty undermanned), etc . . . .

I think these are all reasons why the army is having trouble recruiting for hpsp.

so, people are choosing the USAF because it is the lesser of 3 evils?

 

[Uncle_Tbag]

I showed this forum to a radiologist I work with that got out of his airforce just two years ago and it gave him a good chuckle. He really enjoyed his stint in the service and advised me what is said here is typical of the internet where the unhappy people complain the most and make the situation sound far worse than it is.

So, I'm in no position to comment on the issue and am only offering a second-hand opinion, but it is true that not every military doc feels the same way.

 

[USAFdoc]

I showed this forum to a radiologist I work with that got out of his airforce just two years ago and it gave him a good chuckle. He really enjoyed his stint in the service and advised me what is said here is typical of the internet where the unhappy people complain the most and make the situation sound far worse than it is.

So, I'm in no position to comment on the issue and am only offering a second-hand opinion, but it is true that not every military doc feels the same way.

1) so he enjoyed it so much he left?
2) radiology may well have less problems than primary care or surgery
3) please try and find some primary care docs that recently left the USAF and say they enjoyed their stint!
4) thanks for your input though. Perhaps you could give the duty station of that radiologist so HPSP students would feel that that base is a good place to go for radiology
5) yes, not every military doc feels the same way; but if we voted on it it would be the biggest landslide victory in the history of democracy. Not even hanging chads could save the "mil-med is great" party.