Overpaid nurses

[Eugenie98]

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I don't see how working overtime is "abusing the system." You can't work overtime if there is adequate staffing and there are no shifts to be filled. Seems to me the real problem is understaffing, not the nurse filling those shifts.

Not true. Contract requires that senior nurses who want call get it first, they cannot use per diem nurses unless there are no senior nurses to take the call. Our dear Chris must be getting double time or time-and-a-half for all that extra work which is way more than the per diem rate. Say he works 60 hours a week (not unheard of). 3 x 16's and a 12. His normal pay is $130,000 according to the chart, for 1800 hours or ~$72 an hour. He receives double time for 4 + 4 + 4, and time-and-a-half for 4 + 12, or $144 * 12 hours and $108 * 16 hours, in other words, an extra $3.5k a week, on top of his normal $2.6k. $6.1k * 52 = $320k.

Plus he probably gets call pay.

This seniority call rule prevents the DPH from hiring a per diem nurse at say $75 an hour (a more than reasonable per diem rate), and instead, they are forced to pay $33-$70 an hour extra to Chris @ $108 and $144 an hour respectively for work that undoubtedly becomes worse with each passing hour in the week. This stems from the fact that there are no voluntary overtime limits. That is what the Mayor and company are passing into legislation.

 

[Eugenie98]

Here's something that will really boggle your mind from 2004:

We see how well that worked out ...

This guy has been one of the SF's top paid since 2004. What has the city done? They nearly doubled his base pay and now allow him to work even more overtime!

Some nurses undoubtedly get paid too much, and others not enough. I think the outrage here isn't that nurses make that much, it's that our government has failed us on many levels. They steal money from our pockets and treat us like indentured servants. The concept of government serving us has long ago died, we exist solely to fund their whims and bloated payrolls. San Francisco is the worst example of municipal government ever--well, maybe Vallejo is a bit worse, google their situation if you really want to see run-away payrolls.

Wow, in a little over three years he doubled his base from $67k to $130k. Nurses have come a long way in three years. Perhaps doctors could learn something from them.

Nurses = The Borg
Doctors = Federation

They can't do anything, because if they do, the nurses union will shove their collective feet up the city's butt

 

[Eugenie98]

Never a more false statement.

This is total and utter BS....Nurses along with teachers have the most potent and aggressive union representation in the entire country.

The nursing union is a well organized ruthless political machine willing to flood propaganda at the slightest insinuation of a challenge or questioning. Their lobbying efforts are notoriously corrupt.

Overall, I doubt the common man has anymore nursing sympathy than do sympathy for big oil, aerospace/defence or automotive industries which likewise lobby government for job security and increased profits.

In fact I KNOW they dont have sympathy for nursing, Im not merely floating conjecture here.

The idea there is some underswell of sympathy would be akin to saying residents of Chicago in the roaring 20s had sympathy for the Mafia because they dared not openly confront Capone.

So you really think that if it came down to physicians versus nurses on nursing comp, the common joe would side with physicians? That's laughable. The general public has had and always will have the impression that physicians have golden Rx pads, and that nurses toil for long hours for little pay with little appreciation.

Most of the public still thinks dentists are the poor cousins of physicians when pediatric dentists makes on the order of 3x pediatricians, and associates are banking over two times as much as medical residents

Most of the public also has no idea where China, India, Brazil, Germany, Japan are on a map of the world.

Hell 80% of the US public doesn't even have a passport (and that's a record, it used to be worse, closer to 90%).

 

[Farmer Jane]

Not true. Contract requires that senior nurses who want call get it first, they cannot use per diem nurses unless there are no senior nurses to take the call. Our dear Chris must be getting double time or time-and-a-half for all that extra work which is way more than the per diem rate. Say he works 60 hours a week (not unheard of). 3 x 16's and a 12. His normal pay is $130,000 according to the chart, for 1800 hours or ~$72 an hour. He receives double time for 4 + 4 + 4, and time-and-a-half for 4 + 12, or $144 * 12 hours and $108 * 16 hours, in other words, an extra $3.5k a week, on top of his normal $2.6k. $6.1k * 52 = $320k.

Plus he probably gets call pay.

This seniority call rule prevents the DPH from hiring a per diem nurse at say $75 an hour (a more than reasonable per diem rate), and instead, they are forced to pay $33-$70 an hour extra to Chris @ $108 and $144 an hour respectively for work that undoubtedly becomes worse with each passing hour in the week. This stems from the fact that there are no voluntary overtime limits. That is what the Mayor and company are passing into legislation.

Again, a nurse cannot work overtime if there are no unfilled shifts. I can't just waltz into work and pick up a shift when my unit is already staffed--there has to be an opening. Per diem nurses generally work in hospitals--the extensive training it takes to be a prison nurse (side note, it requires a BSN, not an ADN/ASN) means that filling shifts is, by necessity, an inside job.

Since in the OP the overtime shifts were extensive throughout the entire year, and into the next year, that indicates a chronic understaffing problem--not something that a per diem nurse can be hired to fix. They need to hire more permanent staff. Until that happens, there will continue to be open shifts, and someone will have to fill them.

 

[burke99]

sure...

but our kids' teachers make 40K

that's the bigger shame...not a new argument, however...

at least I'm a little ahead of that...

and I don't have do deal w/ ****head parents at my level...

Its not a shame, they get summers off and lots of vacation. And here in NY after a couple of years the teacher is pulling in 100K with summers off. There are construction workers in NY making 75 per hour, the police on long island are making over 100K..What do teachers and construction workers have in common..UNIONS..physicians need to unionize or become tronger because when I graduate med school I'm going to be 300,000+ in debt and have a tough time paying it back. Its time to make changes!

 

[fab4fan]

They are right up there with the UAW (United Auto Workers), who were the pioneers of union "tactics". Sadly the lobbyists and special interest groups are the ones who dictate legislation, and the legislators are just there to carry it out.

Right now there are a minority that are taking advantage of the system, but I'd be curious if this current shortage will turn into larger longer term issues (over-extension of scope, a greater variance in training to meet the need, and eventual over-supply). Look no farther than the IT world post-2003.

Not all nurses are unionized. Most are not. This one sure isn't, though I'd like to be. It will never happen in my neck of the woods, though.

 

[fab4fan]

I don't see how working overtime is "abusing the system." You can't work overtime if there is adequate staffing and there are no shifts to be filled. Seems to me the real problem is understaffing, not the nurse filling those shifts.

Finally, a moment of clarity!

 

[fab4fan]

I'd like to interrupt this "Outrage Against Nurses" thread to say that those advertisements you see for the "Ped-Egg" are absolutely true. I caved and got one at CVS. That thing is amazing! (I am not getting any financial incentives for this--just nice feet.)

Carry on...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Not all nurses are unionized. Most are not. This one sure isn't, though I'd like to be. It will never happen in my neck of the woods, though.

I wasn't so much comparing unionized nurses....but more of the nursing lobbyists/national association's strong-arming in regard to policy, which is what unions often do.

 

[Dr.Millisevert]

UNIONS..physicians need to unionize or become tronger because when I graduate med school I'm going to be 300,000+ in debt and have a tough time paying it back. Its time to make changes!

Bring it on! 😎

 

[fab4fan]

I wasn't so much comparing unionized nurses....but more of the nursing lobbyists/national association's strong-arming in regard to policy, which is what unions often do.

You mean like the ANA? Because if you're talking about the ANA, they don't really have anything to do with me or what I do. I'm not a member, they don't affect my practice. They do do a lot of lobbying on behalf of advanced practice nurses, though.

 

[Taurus]

Nurse Making $269,810 Demonstrates California’s Overtime Binge

Jean Keller earned $269,810 last year working as a nurse at a men’s prison on California’s central coast by tripling her regular pay with overtime hours.

Keller got more overtime in 2010 than any other state employee. In all, California’s public workers collected $1.7 billion of extra pay last year, more than half of it in overtime, state payroll data show. The rest was for unused vacation and union-negotiated benefits such as clothing allowances, physical-fitness incentives and special compensation in recognition of a “complex work load.”

 

[deleted87716]

Nurse Making $269,810 Demonstrates California's Overtime Binge

Jean Keller earned $269,810 last year working as a nurse at a men's prison on California's central coast by tripling her regular pay with overtime hours.

Keller got more overtime in 2010 than any other state employee. In all, California's public workers collected $1.7 billion of extra pay last year, more than half of it in overtime, state payroll data show. The rest was for unused vacation and union-negotiated benefits such as clothing allowances, physical-fitness incentives and special compensation in recognition of a "complex work load."

SRSLY...? You bump a 3-y/o thread for this? The fact that this individual is a nurse has nothing to do with anything. It's not even the point of the article.

Among those who got large payouts are a prison doctor who cashed out more than $590,000 of vacation time when he retired, a computer specialist in the Legislature's legal office who got $61,905 in overtime on top of his $71,560 salary, a psychiatrist for the Developmental Services Department who received $97,700 in extra-duty pay and the head of the state gambling commission, who banked $169,623 in unused holiday pay.

Try reading the article past the headline next time. 🙄

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Blue Dog....would you concede that one person making nearly $270k, most of which was OT, is an abuse of the system?

 

[chrish0204]

This post makes you look really petty.

 

[chimichanga]

Blue Dog....would you concede that one person making nearly $270k, most of which was OT, is an abuse of the system?

Not that you asked me, but I would conclude:

1) it probably is no fun working there, and she capitalized on her co-workers' lack of desire to cover countless open shifts.

2) 'Management' (read: the California government) continued to allow this to happen. They themselves are that system, and they allowed this 'abuse' to continue

Albert Pujols is looking to possibly make 250,000,000 with his next contract. Should we vilify him for taking the money?
Is he abusing that system (MLB), or simply taking advantage of what was available?

 

[chimichanga]

This post makes you look really petty.

Nah, he crossed that bridge many, many posts ago...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

1) it probably is no fun working there, and she capitalized on her co-workers' lack of desire to cover countless open shifts.

2) 'Management' (read: the California government) continued to allow this to happen. They themselves are that system, and they allowed this 'abuse' to continue

An obvious fix would be to hire more PT staff and slash OT, but I am sure the nursing union would be completely against these measures. Since the gov't is footing the bill, the prison should be more responsible with tax-payer dollars and not allow anyone to abuse the system like the above person.

Albert Pujols is looking to possibly make 250,000,000 with his next contract. Should we vilify him for taking the money?
Is he abusing that system (MLB), or simply taking advantage of what was available?

Really?

How is a professional baseball player like the person above? Pujols has a unique skillset that few if any people in the country/world have, and he is being paid accordingly. The person above does not possess a unique skillset that few if any people in the country/world have, instead she is manipulating the system.

This is akin to someone going to a catered lunch for the department and taking all of the food. The food was meant for the entire staff, but instead one person selfishly took everything because no one said she couldn't. She may argue that since other people didn't leave their offices that they didn't want any or deserve any be put aside for them, but anyone looking in from the outside could see how selfish and abusive the actions of the person were in the context of the situation. Eventually the catered lunches would be cancelled because they were being abused by a handful of staff, and there was no real benefit to the department.

If this was a private corporation and board members were fine with this setup, it would be a different matter. Instead, the gov't is footing the bill (with tax dollars), and she is gaming the system. The union created an artificial market, and she is exploiting it. It is no wonder that our prison system is hemmoraging money, as state employees are abusing the heck out of the system. I hope the prison slashes the payroll and cleans house of the abusers of the system. Privatizing the prison system and banning unions would take care of this problem quite quickly.

*edit*

Yes, I know not all privatized prisons save money, but they offer a better alternative than the current system.

 

[chimichanga]

I get your analogy, but I think it's partially incorrect.

How do you know that no one else wants the OT?
You're assuming this person hogged all of the OT (per your analogy of taking all the food), of which we can't be certain, as nowhere in the article did it mention or even infer that fact.

As a matter of fact, it mentions a hiring freeze, which would explain the lack of RNs to cover these open shifts. (would you rather they bring in registry, at more of a cost, or just go without a nurse for a given shift?)
At least it was someone who already worked there, and who was familiar with the day to day operations...

Nowhere does it say that this RN cornered the market on all the OT at that prison.
My guess is, like I mentioned before, is that the conditions there probably suck, and this person was likely the only person who wanted the OT.

(BTW, you failed to mention the TWO physicians who also 'cashed in' on the state's misfortunes)

So my example with Pujols, though maybe not 100% applicable, remains germane to the argument:

The money is offered by the organization (STL Cardinals, CA state prison); why should we bitch at the person who takes it?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I am more disturbed by the 'required OT' mentioned in the article.
NO ONE should ever stand for mandatory OT, period.

 

[AnnoyedByFreud]

I get your analogy, but I think it's partially incorrect.

How do you know that no one else wants the OT?
You're assuming this person hogged all of the OT (per your analogy of taking all the food), of which we can't be certain, as nowhere in the article did it mention or even infer that fact.

As a matter of fact, it mentions a hiring freeze, which would explain the lack of RNs to cover these open shifts. (would you rather they bring in registry, at more of a cost, or just go without a nurse for a given shift?)
At least it was someone who already worked there, and who was familiar with the day to day operations...

Nowhere does it say that this RN cornered the market on all the OT at that prison.
My guess is, like I mentioned before, is that the conditions there probably suck, and this person was likely the only person who wanted the OT.

(BTW, you failed to mention the TWO physicians who also 'cashed in' on the state's misfortunes)

So my example with Pujols, though maybe not 100% applicable, remains germane to the argument:

The money is offered by the organization (STL Cardinals, CA state prison); why should we bitch at the person who takes it?

Don't hate the player, hate the game.

I am more disturbed by the 'required OT' mentioned in the article.
NO ONE should ever stand for mandatory OT, period.

Why would anyone bother to do that when this is clearly a nurse bashing thread?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

(BTW, you failed to mention the TWO physicians who also 'cashed in' on the state's misfortunes)

They are equally at fault for abusing the system, though this thread was specifically about nursing pay. Anyone abusing a tax-payer supported system deserves to be criticized. I'm not advocating for castigation, but given the current budget problems of CA....this is just salt in the wound.

The money is offered by the organization (STL Cardinals, CA state prison); why should we bitch at the person who takes it?

Because that same money could be spent on 2x (or more) workers, thereby providing more coverage for the same cost, or providing the same coverage for less overall cost. It is no wonder the CA budget is FUBAR'd.

I am more disturbed by the 'required OT' mentioned in the article.
NO ONE should ever stand for mandatory OT, period.

Are you disturbed that they are being "required" to work more than a typical shift, or by the fact that OT is being "required" by the system, even if it is not needed and/or the hours could be filled without OT?

 

[chimichanga]

I've known RNs who have been mandated to work extra days per week, and to stay past their 12 hours (yes, we all know a 12 hour shift pales in comparison to a residency shift, but this is a different issue 🙂)

It got so bad several years ago in AZ that employers were reporting countless RNs for 'abandonment' (to the AZ board) when refusing to stay past their scheduled 12 hours (read: the ward was short, as it was (pre) scheduled that way, d/t lack of nurses to fill needs, so 16, 18 , and 20 hour shifts were becoming 'required' to safely take care of a pt assignment.)

Or, the RN manager would just call you on your day off, to tell you that you 'have to come in'

There are no unions in AZ (thank goodness) and many RNs were afraid to say no.

The board became flooded with these 'complaints' from employers, so that the law was changed ,and now, an RN can leave after her/his scheduled time without repercussion.

Most would work 12+ hours if asked, and were pre scheduled (i used to do 20 hour shifts routinely) but forcing their hands is not cool.

And to address your point about spending more money on workers: I don't disagree. In fact, I couldn't agree more. BUT, the employee picking up the OT has no say on the hiring practices (see my point about the state hiring freeze) and picking up open shifts is certainly not akin to your example of hogging all the food.

In my 20+ years experience as an RN manager, OT shifts are typically placed on a list and people sign up for them.

If there is a freeze, and the working conditions blow, then your OT pool diminishes to nil. You take what you get from your core staff.

Along with hiring freezes, come registry restrictions (or complete banishment)

I just can't get with you on your take of this RN 'abusing' the system (nor do I think those docs 'abused' the system)
They were just making use of the available shifts/funds, etc. that were allowed and implemented by the 'ivory tower' or 'bean counters'

I don't disagree that the taxpayers should be furious though.

I mean if you find a C-note on the street, should we blame you for finding it, or is it the fault of the dude with the hole in his pocket?
He should get his pants fixed right?

The headline was to grab the reader's attention, nothing more, and is misleading; it was intended to elicit opinions like yours, and to spark debate.

all of your counterpoints, IMO, trace back to the ineptitude of the state's government, not their employees.

 

[FireCloud9]

Is there a reason that nurses are paid OT but PAs are not? Or is this just a function of the nurses union?

I ask because I keep hearing of PAs working long hours getting paid a straight salary and at least one calculating that if he'd gone the nurse route instead he'd make more bank given the hours he works.

Got me wondering about the history of why nurses are paid for OT....unlike so many other professions.

 

[bibibi]

Is there a reason that nurses are paid OT but PAs are not? Or is this just a function of the nurses union?

I ask because I keep hearing of PAs working long hours getting paid a straight salary and at least one calculating that if he'd gone the nurse route instead he'd make more bank given the hours he works.

Got me wondering about the history of why nurses are paid for OT....unlike so many other professions.

PAs work for salary, nurses are compensated by the hour. Hence the overtime. If nurse practitioner works for a salary and puts extra hours him he/she will not get paid overtime.

 

[fab4fan]

Blue Dog....would you concede that one person making nearly $270k, most of which was OT, is an abuse of the system?

Maybe if "the system" staffed the facility appropriately, people wouldn't be able to rack up OT fees. Don't blame the person who was just taking advantage of available OT.

Some places would rather pay out OT than hire. It's cheaper than hiring someone and having to pay them wages and benefits (plus pay to orient them to the job).

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Maybe if "the system" staffed the facility appropriately, people wouldn't be able to rack up OT fees. Don't blame the person who was just taking advantage of available OT.

Some places would rather pay out OT than hire. It's cheaper than hiring someone and having to pay them wages and benefits (plus pay to orient them to the job).

Am I the only one who sees nurses doing OT in the same light as MD's moonlighting?

 

[TheEarDoc]

Am I the only one who sees nurses doing OT in the same light as MD's moonlighting?

Nope. I see it no different than a PA working more than 1 contract.

 

[FireCloud9]

PAs work for salary, nurses are compensated by the hour. Hence the overtime. If nurse practitioner works for a salary and puts extra hours him he/she will not get paid overtime.

I understand that. What I am asking is why is that the case? Why aren't nurses on a flat salary like PA or why don't PA seek the same hourly arrangement as nurses if they believe that with OT they'd make more money on that arrangement?

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

I understand that. What I am asking is why is that the case? Why aren't nurses on a flat salary like PA or why don't PA seek the same hourly arrangement as nurses if they believe that with OT they'd make more money on that arrangement?

I'm not sure why PAs don't push for more hourly work, though I know the nursing union is one of the strongest unions out there, and they aren't going to give up the Sacred OT Cow.

 

[deleted87716]

Am I the only one who sees nurses doing OT in the same light as MD's moonlighting?

"Moonlighting" means working two (or more) jobs.

Not the case in this example.

 

[jwk]

I understand that. What I am asking is why is that the case? Why aren't nurses on a flat salary like PA or why don't PA seek the same hourly arrangement as nurses if they believe that with OT they'd make more money on that arrangement?

Where did you and bibibibibibibibibi get this idea?

There are plenty of nurses that are paid a salary, and plenty of PA's on an hourly wage - and vice versa. And then there are those that have a combination of the two - salary for a 40hr week, and an OT rate (often a flat rate not necessarily based on time and a half).

 

[deleted6669]

I understand that. What I am asking is why is that the case? Why aren't nurses on a flat salary like PA or why don't PA seek the same hourly arrangement as nurses if they believe that with OT they'd make more money on that arrangement?

lots of full time pa's work on an hourly salary.
one of my current em pa partners makes over 200k/yr doing this.
I left a high paying job( with lots of differentials, a union, 2 guaranteed raises/yr on a step scale, etc) a few yrs ago which paid me more than the new fp docs at the same place were making(they were salaried to 140k before they made partner then went to 170). scope of practice and respect for pa's sucked so I took a pay cut to go elsewhere but am much happier for doing so.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

"Moonlighting" means working two (or more) jobs.

Not the case in this example.

Obviously its not identical, but in both cases the person involved works more time and gets paid more.

Now we could argue that nurses either a) shouldn't be paid by the hour and/or b) should have limits on how much OT they can work/not allowed to work OT. But that doesn't change the present reality. Though that might be a new direction we could go in.

 

[fab4fan]

Obviously its not identical, but in both cases the person involved works more time and gets paid more.

Now we could argue that nurses either a) shouldn't be paid by the hour and/or b) should have limits on how much OT they can work/not allowed to work OT. But that doesn't change the present reality. Though that might be a new direction we could go in.

One problem: doctors do not control nurses.

 

[fab4fan]

I'm not sure why PAs don't push for more hourly work, though I know the nursing union is one of the strongest unions out there, and they aren't going to give up the Sacred OT Cow.

Which omnipotent nurses' union are you referring to? You are aware that there's more than one union out there, right?

 

[FireCloud9]

Where did you and bibibibibibibibibi get this idea?

There are plenty of nurses that are paid a salary, and plenty of PA's on an hourly wage - and vice versa. And then there are those that have a combination of the two - salary for a 40hr week, and an OT rate (often a flat rate not necessarily based on time and a half).

I got the idea from the PAs in my area that complain about it.

lots of full time pa's work on an hourly salary.
one of my current em pa partners makes over 200k/yr doing this.
I left a high paying job( with lots of differentials, a union, 2 guaranteed raises/yr on a step scale, etc) a few yrs ago which paid me more than the new fp docs at the same place were making(they were salaried to 140k before they made partner then went to 170). scope of practice and respect for pa's sucked so I took a pay cut to go elsewhere but am much happier for doing so.

Is this a regional situation then?

The PAs we know in Northern Cali and NY area are on flat salaries no matter how many hours they work. In contrast to the nurses we know that are paid OT.

 

[fab4fan]

Then the PAs need to look for a way to change their situation, not ways to change the situation of others. They chose to become PAs, not nurses.

 

[deleted6669]

I got the idea from the PAs in my area that complain about it.



Is this a regional situation then?

The PAs we know in Northern Cali and NY area are on flat salaries no matter how many hours they work. In contrast to the nurses we know that are paid OT.

it is institution dependent. I know pa's in both northern ca and upstate ny who are swimming in money. I would never sign on to work for straight salary without the possibility of overtime. when I worked in ca I got hourly pay and 1.5x for overtime(anything >10 hrs in a row or 40 hrs in a week). the nursing union in norcal is very strong but over the last 10 yrs pa's have been able to get on an even footing in many settings and a lot of jobs are now posted pa/np that previously were open to np's only.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

One problem: doctors do not control nurses.

I didn't mean doctors when I said that, it was a general societal we.

 

[fab4fan]

I didn't mean doctors when I said that, it was a general societal we.

Then maybe we should take a look at doctors who make exorbitant incomes. While we're at it, let's go after attorneys, too. Tax accountants make a lot of money; maybe we should try to do something about them.

I think this is more about people who think nurses don't deserve to make a good income.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Then maybe we should take a look at doctors who make exorbitant incomes. While we're at it, let's go after attorneys, too. Tax accountants make a lot of money; maybe we should try to do something about them.

I think this is more about people who think nurses don't deserve to make a good income.

There are days where I wouldn't be opposed to that.

That being said, my comment was referring to this one specific incident where a nurse was racking up huge overtime pay. That in itself doesn't make any difference to me. My only potential problem is that a) he/she is a government employee that is b) making more than standard wages with that overtime meaning it would likely be cheaper to hire someone else and have those extra hours worked as part of the usual 40 hours.

But thanks for jumping down my throat about it anyway.

 

[rad0nc]

Then maybe we should take a look at doctors who make exorbitant incomes. While we're at it, let's go after attorneys, too. Tax accountants make a lot of money; maybe we should try to do something about them.

I think this is more about people who think nurses don't deserve to make a good income.

militant much?

 

[fab4fan]

There are days where I wouldn't be opposed to that.

That being said, my comment was referring to this one specific incident where a nurse was racking up huge overtime pay. That in itself doesn't make any difference to me. My only potential problem is that a) he/she is a government employee that is b) making more than standard wages with that overtime meaning it would likely be cheaper to hire someone else and have those extra hours worked as part of the usual 40 hours.

But thanks for jumping down my throat about it anyway.

You're welcome. Any time.

Again, lay the blame where it belongs, at the facility for not staffing appropriately. One thing to consider: if that nurse hadn't worked the OT hours, what would have happened? Would you prefer the facility be dangerously understaffed, just so someone isn't making OT? The state needs to allow the facility to hire more nurses so this kind of OT no longer exists.

 

[FiremedicMike]

There are days where I wouldn't be opposed to that.

That being said, my comment was referring to this one specific incident where a nurse was racking up huge overtime pay. That in itself doesn't make any difference to me. My only potential problem is that a) he/she is a government employee that is b) making more than standard wages with that overtime meaning it would likely be cheaper to hire someone else and have those extra hours worked as part of the usual 40 hours.

But thanks for jumping down my throat about it anyway.

It's actually been proven ad nauseam that once you consider benefits, it is always cheaper to pay overtime than to hire another.. Overtime is generally time and a half, pay+benefits generally adds up to double time.

 

[Taurus]

Million-Dollar Nurses Show California's Struggle to Cut Payroll

"California has paid Lina Manglicmot $1.5 million since 2005, an average of $253,530 a year, to work as a prison nurse in the agricultural town of Soledad."​

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Prison (almost any job) can exploit the system, and most do. People argue that paying OT will cost less than paying more FT nurses (bc of having to pay for healthcare), but you know....you don't hire them FT, so you don't have to pay for benefits!

 

[FiremedicMike]

Prison (almost any job) can exploit the system, and most do. People argue that paying OT will cost less than paying more FT nurses (bc of having to pay for healthcare), but you know....you don't hire them FT, so you don't have to pay for benefits!

Why hire anyone fulltime at all? Lets make everyone part-time and we can skip out on benefits altogether.

I'm not necessarily trying to be obstinate, but it does beg the question "where do we draw the line?"

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Why hire anyone fulltime at all? Lets make everyone part-time and we can skip out on benefits altogether.

I'm not necessarily trying to be obstinate, but it does beg the question "where do we draw the line?"

When you are accountable to the tax payer, you need to consider the overall cost of how you conduct your business. Let the market set the rates/packages, not the unions, and the tax payers will benefit.

 

[The right Path]

When you are accountable to the tax payer, you need to consider the overall cost of how you conduct your business. Let the market set the rates/packages, not the unions, and the tax payers will benefit.

I think this is an excellent example of market pressures. Who all wants to provide nursing care for prison inmates in a sh*thole place like Soledad?

What? No one's raising their hand? Come on, someone's gotta do it.

Alright... what if we pay you above average salary?

Great, I see we've got a few takers- but we're still short several shifts.

Okay, fine, if you guys work these extra shifts, we'll pay you a $50.00 incentive bonus per shift.

Really? No one? Don't you think you should be grateful to have a job?!? After all, nursing is a cush, easy, job that any half-wit can do, right? What? I can go f*ck myself?

Sorry, wait, come back.... okay, okay, how about time and a half pay for overtime?





Supply and demand. You might not like it- but it is what it is.

 

[FiremedicMike]

When you are accountable to the tax payer, you need to consider the overall cost of how you conduct your business. Let the market set the rates/packages, not the unions, and the tax payers will benefit.

With due respect sir, you gave me a bit of a wookie defense there. Tossing the unions under the bus (a whole other topic) is irrelevant to the question I asked. If we're all about the almighty dollar, then where do we draw the line? Lets fire ALL the fulltime nurses and prison guards at this facility, rehire with part-timers, and then we won't have to pay out benefits to everyone.

It's easy to understand that a full-time employee will (generally) have a much higher vested interest in the company and is (generally) much more likely to stick around. Part-time nurses are (generally) new grads looking for a full time job and will be gone the minute that comes along.

Of course, we are also failing to address that this employee is a statistical outlier. In the California department of Corrections, I couldn't even begin to estimate how many employees there are, but it's safe to say it's probably easily pushing 5000+. In a model that large, it's not really surprising to find a person or two that far above the curve. If this were a system-wide normal salary, then I'd probably jump right in with you and argue that they have a staffing model problem, but one person (or even a few), really doesn't seem to be a problem.

This issue does of course beg the previously mentioned cliche of "would you want to work there?" Perhaps too watered down at this point, but seriously, would you want to work at a prison in the middle of nowhere in California?