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Overrepresented Minorities

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by hugh2012, Aug 4, 2015.

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  1. hugh2012

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    Hello guys, as an overrepresented minority who feels that medical schools should emphasize socioeconomic status over other factors that may be currently be in place, I was wondering how you guys feel about this issue? I have known a people in minority groups who have well off well educated parents and have grown up in good environments so I feel they should just be treated the same as someone else in the same socioeconomic status and not based on factors such as race. I have also known overrepresented minorities who have grown up with poor parents and bad environments and feel that these people should be treated the same as an underrepresented minority growing up under similar conditions.I am willing to accept that I must score higher and look better on paper than someone who grows up in the inner cities because I am of middle class and have better access to resources, but I really cannot stand someone who grows up in a good wealthy environment with well educated parents and have good access to resources have a significant over me because they are underrepresented when it should go to that underrepresented kid in the inner city who worked his butt off despite having to deal with family problems and neighborhood gang issues as a child.
     
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  3. WonderGrill

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    Anyone who has an IQ above 50 knows that this is the most logical thing to do. Unfortunately it's probably never gonna happen in our lifetime because of political correctness and because we apparently NEED diversity for some reason. The idiots are the ones who say "just work harder if you're an ORM" "life isn't fair". Aka, the ones who are just saying "don't fight the system because it happens to benefit me, and I want to keep it that way".

    Just think about the most extreme example: an Asian kid growing up in a low socioeconomic status neighborhood. He has all of the disadvantages of growing up in a disadvantaged environment AS WELL AS the disadvantages of being Asian. A complete lose-lose situation, the worst of both worlds. But hey, all that matters is diversity right?

    I don't really understand why Asians are punished for being the best academic students on paper. Guess most people wouldn't like it if med schools were 100% Asian. Being diverse is more important than producing the best doctors possible, right guys?
     
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  4. ciruji

    ciruji SURGERY
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  5. f4reignbeauty

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    If we put the same amount of energy, concern and intensity into our applications, I'm sure we wouldn't have time to make blanketed statements such as these.

    Btw, cultural competency is becoming super important and is highly valued. Just thought you should know.
     
  6. medic86

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  7. intangible

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    Admissions committees are not looking to discriminate against races. So many members of this forum are self-centered: the premise of ORMs is that we have a disproportionate amount of a certain race in medicine relative to the number of folks in the general population belonging to that race.

    Ideally, we should have a generally similar ratio of minority physicians to minority patients. This ensures that patients will be understood within the context of their culture, such that they receive comprehensive and culturally applicable care.

    Medicine is more than the knowledge you learn in medical school. You have to be able and willing to understand perspectives that aren't your own. Diversity initiatives help to ameliorate this problem.
     
  8. Beyonce2.0

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    Lol when society starts treating me better as an underrepresented minority because I grew up in a middle class home, I'll let you know. At the end of the day, while some overrepresented minorities might have grown up in poorer conditions than some underrepresnted minorities, you are still at an advantage in society based on race alone. No matter what career path you choose, you are still more likely to see people of the same race as you than I am, and that has a tendency to affect people's willingness to go into certain fields. Hence the practice of affirmative action. Also, the whole other side to it is that patients are often more comfortable with people who can understand their experiences, which is quite often based on race, hence the favoring of underrepresented minorities in admissions.
     
  9. Lucca

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    Let's just establish a few things before you get this thread going in earnest:

    1. Socioeconomic status is certainly taken into account in medical school admissions. In spite of this, most medical students come from a very high socioeconomic status as wealth is the best predictor of academic success and academic success is still the central factor looked at in medical admissions.

    2. Asians are not "punished" for being over represented. They are overrepresented in the medical school population by a factor of 4 and yet don't have significantly higher matriculating averages than Caucasians once one corrects for the high number of Asians living in California. In other words, in spite of their representation there is no evidence of Asians being held to a higher standard than Caucasians in admissions. Bottom line: Asians with strong applications are still getting in, Asians with weak applications are not.

    3. A greater proportion of African-American and Latino students have low socioeconomic status than do Asian or Caucasian students. (Remember 1).

    4. Most professionals (and nearly all education professionals) understand -- and can cite a dearth of literature that agrees with -- the notion that diversity is intrinsically valuable to education. Do not be fooled by the above poster just because they sound certain of themselves. If you are curious as to how then ask, don't just assume your position to be correct.

    5. Nobody deserves a spot because they met some level of academic benchmarks. At most, you are academically qualified but that does not necessarily mean you are worthy of admission. All applicants who make it into medical school are academically qualified in the sense that even applicants on the "low academic" end of the admissions spectrum pass their boards and earn their MD greater than 90% of the time.

    6. Medical schools have missions and goals that data suggests can be better met by selecting for specific types of applicants. This might mean more Latino and African-American students; it could also mean students from rural Mississippi, students from that State, students who are highly adept at scholarly work, lab scientists, etc. Diversity is not one dimensional. No one is arguing that all of the ORMs in medical schools are identical copies of themselves and that only URMs can be diverse.

    Now that we have those out of the way, feel free to talk about the perfectly valid and important topics of the types of racial discrimination Asians do face in admissions such as:

    A) Having to provide evidence against the implicit but unfounded assumption that highly-performing Asian candidates are somehow socially inept, driven totally by external factors and family, or in other ways "robotic".

    B) Facing what may be implicit admissions quotas in medical admissions that do not seem to be equally applied to other ORMs, namely Caucasians.

    C) Facing the implicit and unfounded assumption that they do not experience racism.

    etc.
     
  10. Lancer

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    Stopped reading here. There is actually quite a bit of evidence about this. Simply look at a graph of percentage matriculation given a certain MCAT/GPA.

    Edit: Most of the rest of what you say I agree with, as far as the benefits of having URM physicians.
     
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  11. Lawper

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    With these two posts, this URM thread (and all its relatives) is done /thread
     
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  12. Lucca

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    I did. Elsewhere on this forum I provided an analysis along with another poster @Reckoner to provide evidence that most of this disparity could be explained by the high number of Asians (33% of the national Asian applicant population, I think) living in California where matriculation metrics are significantly higher than elsewhere in the country. If you search "California skew" you might be able to find it. I'd look for it but I'm on my phone and I hate linking thing while on my phone. It's not a rigorous enough analysis to say "this is definitely what is causing it" but you can look at the standard deviations and make the judgement for yourself that the averages are really not significantly different (in the statistical sense) from eachother.

    Edit: correct number for Asian proportion of applicant pool is below.
     
    #11 Lucca, Aug 4, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2015
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  13. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    People need to realize that the goal of adcoms isn't to reward the most-deserving students a spot in their class. It's to create the class they think will best advance the interests of medicine and their school.
     
  14. Cyberdyne 101

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    Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?
    Okay so I've got some down time at work and decided to actually investigate my California idea.

    Based on AAMC data on applicants and matriculants, 23% of Asian applicants are California residents, vs. 7.78% of White applicants. The percentage of Asian matriculants from California is 21.9, vs. 7.42% for Whites. The ratios of California matriculants/California applicants for both Whites and Asians are roughly equivalent (0.953 and 0.952, respectively), suggesting that both groups face a slight and equal disadvantage based on residence. If you subtract all California residents, the percentage of White applicants matriculating is still slightly higher (45.42%) than that of Asians (43.77%). So maybe that explains some portion of the discrepancy, but certainly not all of it.

    Another bit of relevant data: According to this AAMC document, Asians are slightly more likely than Whites to not be first time applicants (26.72% vs 24.95%). I can't find any data on matriculation rates for reapplicants, but anecdotally it seems to be lower.

    [email protected]

    Not mentioning ethnicity on applications - disadvantage?
    Sigh. Reckoner's analysis a few pages back already corrected for your "martian, earthling" by citing that 1/3 of asian applicants come from California schools.
    Pulling from AAMC data already posted on this thread:

    Total Number of Asian Applicants in 2012: 9,544
    Total Number of Asian Matriculants in 2012: 4,121
    Asian Acceptance Rate: 43.1%

    Total Number of White Applicants in 2012: 26,649
    Total Number of White Matriculants in 2012: 12,134
    White Acceptance Rate: 45.5%

    Number of Asian Applicants from the state of California: 2,168
    As a percentage of Asian applicant population: 22.7%

    Number of White Applicants from the state of California: 1,895
    As a percentage of White applicant population: 7.1%

    Number of Asian Matriculants from the state of California: 891
    As a percentage of Asian applicant from California population, acceptance rate: 41.1%

    Number of White Matriculants from the state of California: 817
    As a percentage of White applicants from California population, acceptance rate: 43.1%

    Conclusion I: Applicants from the state of California face a uniform 2% drop in admission rates due to the nature of medical admission in the state.
    Hypothesis: A dramatically larger percentage of the asian population applies from the state of California when compared to White applicants (with White applicant numbers used as a "neutral" number since they are neither URM or ORM - discounting SES advantages, etc.) and thus the "California skew" has a greater effect on the Asian population than the White population.
    Fact: Asian matriculants comprise 21.1% of the total matriculant pool in spite of representing only 5.1% of the US population (US Census Bureau, 2013)
    Fact: The average matriculating and applying statistics (MCAT /GPA /LizzyM Score) for Asians and Whites are nearly identical.

    Conclusion II: The idea that there is a higher bar set for Asian applicants is a myth, a puff of smoke created by statistics and the given knowledge that Asians are over represented by a factor of 4 in the medical school population. Furthermore, the AAMC paper describing EO ratings highlights that only 30% of Asians are EO-1 or EO-2, the most disadvantaged socio-economic groups; consequently, less Asians will be considered for 'admission boosts' due to SES than members of other ethnic groups. The AAMC paper I linked last night, the position of Adcoms on this thread and this forum at large, and the available position of the AAMC endorses the fact that SES is indeed used as a factor in admissions when considering an applicant's disadvantage.
    In case none of that sunk in, your Martian vs. Earthling comparison is void because the discrepancy is not 1 in 10 versus 9 in 10. It's 4.31 in 10 versus 4.5 in 10. The average Asian applicant, barring residence in California, should be able to gain admission into medical school with the same LizzyM (Mcat +GPA multiplier) score as a white applicant - ALL OF THIS IN SPITE OF BEING OVER REPRESENTED BY A FACTOR OF 4. In fact, considering the gross over representation of Asians in medical school, we can conclude that they remain over-represented thanks to the high-achieving history of their applicant pool - suggesting a highly meritocratic element to admissions that trumps the underlying mission to better represent the US population. No one is "fighting for scraps" or anything as dramatic as you said. There are no quotas ( I already explained the difference between quotas and admission policies in my first post on this thread and I don't expect to have to repeat myself).

    If you find the idea of internal competition in an economically competitive system hard to stomach then I would leave the US right now because there's this thing called capitalism you see and it basically permeates every single part of American culture. However, if you want to continue to zealously enforce this "scrap" imagery, consider the mass of White and URM applicants sitting by the way-side watching 5% of the population gobble up 21% of available medical school seats. I don't mean for that last argument to be serious, mind you, because it isn't. Because the image you made wasn't serious to begin with. Because this whole debate is bollocks, and all solvents have been provided for all of your arguments.

    [email protected]
     
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  15. Doug Underhill

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    Yep. Basically, many of the easiest states for med school admission (according to Table 5's matriculation statistics) are heavily white (VT, ND, AL, KY, WV, MT), while CA, one of the harder states (but not the hardest) is heavily Asian.
     
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  16. steeeeveo

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    Socioeconomic status *and* race are both important. That's why both are considered. The part that I bolded is what I have an issue with. I am African American, and I know VERY few URMs with "well educated parents and have good access to resources". I'm not really buying this argument.

    It's not totally fair, but it's the system.
     
  17. hugh2012

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    I definetely agree we need more URM in medicine but that they shouldn't all be from the upper echelon of society which it seems. I know someone at my school, which is a Top 10 school, who grew up in a very bad neighborhood in NYC. He works his ass off and deserves to get in somewhere good. Contrast this with someone else I know who is an URM but he is upper middle class. He got in several Top 10-20 med schools, yet he has a an arrest and some other questionable activities and is definitely not as academically qualified as the guy at my school with the lower stats who I hope will go somewhere good. not trying to go against this, but I think that URM and ORM minorities from poor backgrounds should be considered more so than already.
     
  18. Goro

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    To clarify what my young colleague has stated: it's not about what applicants want, it's about what the school wants.



    This is a very common straw man thrown out by people arguing against the bonus URMs get for admissions. Every one of the URM students we've matriculated at my school are definitely NOT upper SES.


     
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  19. AsianPersuasion

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    Agreed.

    + Health disparities.
     
  20. Lucca

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    Ahh vintage me being angry at the Internet. I'm not quite so certain about what I said about quotas however. Deserves reexamination.
     
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  21. Cyberdyne 101

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    Lol, I think it was good that you incorporated capitalism into your conclusion. I mean, this process definitely rewards high achievers.
     
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  22. Lucca

    Lucca Will Walk Rope for Sandwich
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    And people don't think I'm a capitalist! I've said it severa times on this forum.
     
  23. piii

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    You sound just like every other premed complaining about how unfair it is for you. Everyone has to play the game and everyone has their own struggles. Stop whining, or else no one is going to enjoy being in the same med class with you.
     
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  24. Cyberdyne 101

    Cyberdyne 101 It's a dry heat
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    Well, you fooled me. I could have sworn you were a pinko commie. :laugh:
    Obviously, I'm kidding.
     
  25. raiderette

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  26. Spector1

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    implying Asians don't make culturally competent physicians because of the color of their skin...
     
  27. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    I have no idea how you divined that from my post. That's not even remotely what I said.
     
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  28. hugh2012

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    I have a 3.8 and solid ECs at a top 10 so I really am not considering DO at all because for the specialities I am interested in it is very hard as a DO. Also, I don't complain about this issue. I am a little annoyed but I keep things to myself in person and definetely do not give off an elitist attitude. I just feel like admissions can be tweaked a little so it considers socioeconomic status a bit more than it already is. I do not mean to insult anyone and apologize to anyone who might have been insulted.
     
  29. Cyberdyne 101

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    Umm, there are plenty of Asians with dark skin. Also, what about the Cambodian and Hmong applicants that get UIM status? I don't hear people complaining about them...
     
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  30. Goro

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    Yet just like any random MD school, my classes are ~1/3rd Asian. We're west of St Louis, so being on the same side of the continent as CA might have something to do with it.

    Asians can do very well with DO schools because VR scores that would be lethal at MD schools 5-8 are fine with us. An ESL applicant who scored VR6/Bio10/PS10 on the old scale has a 26,, which is circling the drain for MD schools, yet would be able to get into any DO school, except maybe CCOM and AZCOM.

    Hugh, unless you bomb your interview or have a horrible PS, you have a VERY high likelihood of getting into medical school! BTW, we Adcoms like rags-to-riches stories. Americans instinctively root for the underdog.


    I have a 3.8 and solid ECs at a top 10 so I really am not considering DO at all because for the specialities I am interested in it is very hard as a DO. Also, I don't complain about this issue. I am a little annoyed but I keep things to myself in person and definetely do not give off an elitist attitude. I just feel like admissions can be tweaked a little so it considers socioeconomic status a bit more than it already is. I do not mean to insult anyone and apologize to anyone who might have been insulted.
     
  31. efle

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    @Lucca is there any evidence in decline of quality at somewhere like Cal or UCLA since they stopped considering race? If diversity really is critical in a million and one ways, then I assume massive and prominent schools abolishing race considerations should have some very apparent, detrimental effects showing up over the last twenty years

    I'm also extremely wary of the California skew hypothesis, since at the undergrad level there are a variety of schools that have been busted for setting the stats bar higher for Asians despite being private universities with no consideration for state of residence. Even in the public sphere it became apparent the UCs were setting higher bars for Asian applicants since the Asian proportions grew significantly after the race-blinding. We would really need to see some identical admissions bell curves for White vs Asian at some private MD schools to support the Cali hypothesis imo
     
  32. WonderGrill

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    A classic example of "don't question the system". Even though the system is completely against Asians, they should just take it lying down right? Asians are so stupid for disliking a system that's completely unfair against them, right?

    You serious? Please tell me a scenario where it's necessary for a doctor to be the same ethnicity as his patient. Would a black surgeon perform better on a black patient because he knows black people's anatomy better? A black urologist would be better able to connect to a black patient because of some spiritual bond? Besides maybe a psychologist, don't really see how being the same ethnicity as your patient means anything.

    https://www.aamc.org/download/321514/data/factstable25-2.pdf
    https://www.aamc.org/download/321516/data/factstable25-3.pdf

    So entitled lol. Tell me the struggles that a white student has just because of his skin color. Please tell me. Let me translate your post for you: "Yes, the system is unfair, but you're not allowed to complain about it because I said so". You're not very smart are you? lol

    So pretty much, Asians have to apply to DO schools to be equal with their peers. Yeah! Equality! Do you really see nothing wrong with that? In all honesty?
     
  33. Lucca

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    It's something worth looking into. However, it is also worth noting cultural differences in the way diversity plays into a student body. By culture I don't mean ethnic culture but umm "attitude" culture I guess, I can't think of a good term.

    For example: I spent a week at Berkeley for a research conference during their school year and sat in on some classes, hung out with my old friends who go there, met some new faces etc and let me tell you that the campus culture is VASTLY different to the culture down here in Texas (surprise suprise, right?). i could see from the RAs, the way the students talked about problems, the programs the admin had in place etc that this was a far more inclusive environment than what we had back home in Texas even though we might still employ affirmative action.


    Of course this was only from a week stay and there is much to be said for the wellbeing and representation of the Hispanic Cali population (a lot of Cali citizens) at these schools and the recent controversies about black students at the UCs being admitted mainly for athletic purposes (I think UCLA was at the center of this). These are certainly direct consequences of race-blind admissions policies. Furthermore, there is also something to be said about the ethics of funding an excellent public education system that fails to serve significant portions of its population if it is able to do so.


    My answer to you is: I don't know but I think if you looked more closely (and an education professional could probably do a better job than I ever could) you would gain some worthwhile insight on both sides of the affirmative action argument.

    Your Cali skew criticism is valid. All I have to say is that the AAMC data available shows matriculant and applicant numbers to be close and within one standard deviation. A trend could certainly still be in place but I haven't looked at strictly private MD data for these purposes.
     
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  34. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    You are not entitled to a spot in medical school no matter how good your stats are.
     
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  35. WonderGrill

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    You're right. It's more the fact that black students are held to a lower standard than white or Asian students, and Asian students are held to a higher standard than white or black students. Or in simpler terms: Mcat scores that give black applicants 80% acceptance rates gives Asians 20%. Get an Asian doctor if you can; you know that they had to work hard to get where they did.
     
  36. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    They're held to the exact same standard in medical school. In medical school, the standards are grades and STEP scores.

    There's no "standard" to be held to in medical school admissions. In medical school admissions, it's a competitive process. What matters is where an applicant may fit into the class the school is trying to create, and whether the student will advance the practice of medicine, the goals of the school, or the needs of the community more than another.

    It's time to stop thinking so much about yourself and whether life is being fair to you. Start thinking about how you can positively contribute to the people and world around you.
     
    #35 jonnythan, Aug 4, 2015
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  37. WonderGrill

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    We're not talking about what happens when you get into med school. This is about med school applications. Pay attention.

    If there's no standard, why do black students with a 3.5 and 32 have an 80% chance of acceptance, but Asians with the same stats have a 40% chance. Wanna explain that?

    Easy to say that if you're not the one who has the system against you. Try to be a bit more culturally aware. There's more to life than your soft, protected bubble. Imagine if you needed to have a 37 on your MCAT to be considered average. Just you. But yeah, can't complain about that right? Life is just unfair right?
     
  38. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    Yes. Asians are already overrepresented in medicine, and blacks underrepresented. The school and the medical community would not benefit from blacks becoming even more underrepresented.

    I had a 35 on my MCAT and was considered so far below average that it took two cycles to get a measly two interviews and one acceptance. But, then, I'm playing into your belief that you apparently know anything whatsoever about me or my application.

    Yes, life is just unfair. You do everything you can do and that's all you can do. Getting angry and complaining repeatedly online about life being unfair doesn't serve anyone or make the world any better.

    Seriously. Let go of this anger and sense of entitlement now rather than later. Right now, the overwhelming impression I'm getting from you is that you view medicine as an opportunity to gain prestige and respect, as opposed to an opportunity to serve humanity with humility and awe.
     
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  39. hugh2012

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    Two cycles with a 35 to get in?! @jonnythan did you only apply to top heavy schools? Bc all my friends with 35+ are at top institutions.
     
  40. 9909

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  41. WonderGrill

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    The school wouldn't benefit from having the best applicants possible? Shocking. But yeah, let's just make things easier for blacks because we feel sorry for them.

    This is what I'm hearing from you. "Even though life isn't fair, we shouldn't do anything about it because I said so. The system is broken, but let's not do anything to fix it because I said so. I'm morally superior to you, so everything I say is fact."

    Also, I'm entitled because I want equal standards for everyone? My bad.
     
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  42. steeeeveo

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  43. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    It's a long story. My cGPA was a 2.8 because of 2 semesters of straight F's back in 2000-2001 (I had been rocking a 3.8 over two years of full-time work prior to that). I applied exclusively to bottom-tier MD schools and DO schools. It took 50 credits of straight-A part-time work (while working a full-time job) to bring my GPA back up to a 2.8.
     
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  44. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    "The best applicants possible" and "the applicants with the highest stats" are not the same thing.

    "The best applicants possible" are the ones that are best for the medical community and the school.

    What's the rationale for being race-blind? The net effect will be that ORMs will become even more overrepresented and URMs will become even more underrepresented. Why? What's the benefit? Just so Asian pre-meds can feel life is a little more fair?
     
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  45. WonderGrill

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    What inherent value is there in being a URM in medicine? Does it make you a better doctor? Specific examples?
     
  46. elmacl

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    You're missing the entire point. Medical school admissions processes aren't aimed at making things easier for any one black student or harder for any one Asian student. There are not enough black doctors (or Hispanic etc.) to serve the populations who need them. Medical schools are trying to fill that void. Honestly it's unfathomable to me that you can't grasp a situation where a minority patient would feel that they are better served by a minority doctor. How about a Mexican patient who speaks only Spanish and has trouble communicating with a non-native Spanish speaker. Someone who has been taught Spanish in school still might have trouble communicating due to dialect differences. Would you expect an older black gentleman who has never felt comfortable around white people (very common from my experience in a deep south hospital) to bare it all literally and figuratively to his white doctor? He would likely feel more comfortable with someone who he felt shared his experiences in life. Often minorities are underrepresented in medicine but also unfortunately over represented in hospital populations, and to having more URMs helps to combat that.
     
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  47. steeeeveo

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  48. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    Ah, now you're asking the right question.

    Go forth and meditate on it. What's the value to patients to have access to health care providers that look like them? What are the effects of increasing minority representation in healthcare? What's the value to future physicians to learn and collaborate in an environment that is more diverse and more accurately represents the breadth of experiences to be found in the United States and world}?

    Some of these might require some research and reading. Put that big brain to good use and go learn about the effects of more minorities in health care.
     
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  49. WonderGrill

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    Gotcha. You don't know so you're just gonna bow out. I expected no less. I'm pretty sure you're trolling, so I'm just gonna put you on ignore. Peace kid.
     
  50. ElCapone

    ElCapone Don't Lawyer Me
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    Oh look. Another ORM thread.
     
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  51. jonnythan

    jonnythan Some men play tennis, I erode the human soul
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    This attitude does not indicate a desire to subject oneself to a lifetime of service to your fellow man.

    Seriously, seriously, seriously. Let the anger and resentment go. Think about what is best for the community around you, and less about yourself.
     
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