Oversupply: I finally get it!!

[Ben Chudner]

There is a saying, "Perception is reality". I am a firm believer in this. I think we see it on this and other forums all the time and it's why two people can have totally opposite opinions and not understand how the other person can be so wrong. I think the issue of whether or not there is oversupply is another example of this. For the record, I do not believe we have an oversupply problem right this minute. I do fear that there will be one in the not so distant future. Why do I think this?

1) I agree with KHE that docs are working longer than before and therefore the inventory of available practices for sale continues to decrease
2) I also agree with KHE that the baby boomers are already in the optometric system as presbyopes and the diseases they may get will not be treated by us
3) Additional schools will only increase the supply of OD's with no plan of how to increase the number of available jobs

These are my opinions, and I am not trying to represent them as facts. This is my perception and therefore, reality to me. Does this mean the end of our profession? I have no idea, but I can tell you that my ten year plan involves ideas on how to protect my clinic. Now back to my original point. I finally get it. At least I think I know why there are those that believe we have an oversupply problem now.

I have said in the past that in my experience, the OD's that complain about commercial practices and oversupply are often times (NOT ALWAYS, so I am not trying to call out anyone) doctors who are less successful than the average OD. Maybe it's just that they are less successful than they think they should be. Either way, this was my opinion based on the thousands of OD's that I have run into. I don't have any real proof, it's just the feeling I get...until recently.

As an infrequent poster on ODwire, I often visit the site and read the threads. Wow, there are a lot of unhappy OD's in this world and they have managed to find that site. I couldn't figure it out until last night when I came upon a post by Paul Farkas. In that post, he said he does not see all the complaining in the POP forum (a paid membership) that he sees in the ODwire forum. He theorizes that maybe doctors that are willing to pay for consulting services are less likely to be in a position where they are unhappy about optometry. I may be reading between the lines, but I interpret that as saying doctors that are successful understand the benefits of membership in POP are therefore less likely to complain about optometry.

Furthermore, there was recently a lot of discussion on ODwire about how much the average OD makes. Several posters found it absurd that there are doctors making 160K because they aren't. I am not going to tell you how much I make, but in the study group I belong to (15 doctors), no one is making less than 160K. I think this sheds a lot of light on why there is the perception that there is oversupply. How else do you justify why you make less than the average? It must be someone else's fault.

So, is there an oversupply problem? Yes, if you live in an area like the San Fransisco that pumps out 65 graduates a year, and many of them stay there. Do you have to go to some dinky little town to get away from oversupply? No, I don't think so, but you may not necessarily get to practice in downtown Seattle. To those that live near a school, there proabably is an oversupply issue, but that doesn't translate to nationwide just yet.

The bottom line is that my perception is different than others on ODwire. Here's my reality:

1) I own a large practice at 6 doctor days per week.
2) I work 4 of those days.
3) I travel at least 2-3 times per month lecturing on contact lenses.
4) That includes several trips to Canada, Hawaii, and a trip to France (once in a lifetime opportunity to speak to the sales force in Europe).
5) I make more than the average OD (even more than OD's in group practices of 3-5 docs).
6) I get to live in the Pacific Northwest, which is more beautiful than I ever gave it credit for, especially after seeing other areas in the US.
7) My schedule is booked a week out, although if you call in to get an non-emergent appointment, my staff will get in you in that day if there is a cancellation (almost always one or more per day).
8) There are plenty of OD's in my area that make less than me.
9) They would still make less than me even if they were the only OD in town (some people are not cut out for an interactive profession)
10) Commercial optometrists are not to blame.
11) Private OD's who charge less than me are not to blame.
12) Optometry is to blame for the perceptions of our patients because of where we came from.
13) Commerical may not help to change those perceptions, but if we had no commercial optmetry, there would be plenty of private practice OD's to continue the misperception of us being glasses peddlers.
14) I like having commercial optometry because those places get to see the patients that do not see value in my services for my fees.
15) Those patients are better off going to Wal-Mart where they can pay what THEY think an exam is worth, not what I think it's worth

Obviously, others have a different perception than I do. That does not make them wrong, even if they think I am. It is just their perception and therefore, their reality. My point here is not to brag (except maybe the trip to France - that was awesome ), although I expect to see replies attacking me for it. I just want to make sure that the current and future students see both sides of the oversupply and commercial issues. I also want to let them know that this profession is dynamic, and even though I believe things may be fine now, I believe a change is comming if we are not careful.

I guess, the bottom line is I just have nothing to complain about when it comes to the present (I am a member of POP, by the way). The future...well that's another thread.

So there it is. I see the other side of the coin, and as Johnny Storm said, "Flame on!" But please remember that I am not calling anyone out on this site. I have no idea how sucessful any of you are and my comments are generalizations which probably don't apply to you.

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[qwopty99]

So, is there an oversupply problem? Yes, if you live in an area like the San Fransisco that pumps out 65 graduates a year, and many of them stay there. Do you have to go to some dinky little town to get away from oversupply? No, I don't think so, but you may not necessarily get to practice in downtown Seattle. To those that live near a school, there proabably is an oversupply issue, but that doesn't translate to nationwide just yet.

can i summarize ur viewpoint to mean, there might be an oversupply problem, depending on where u are?

can we all generally agree that "oversupply problems" are more likely to occur in urban centers than rural areas?

 

[Ben Chudner]

can i summarize ur viewpoint to mean, there might be an oversupply problem, depending on where u are?

can we all generally agree that "oversupply problems" are more likely to occur in urban centers than rural areas?

Yes, I believe that oversupply problems are much more likely in urban centers, epecially if there is a school of optometry nearby. I also believe that doctors in those areas that have less successful practices, or don't make as much money as they think they should, are more likely to complain about oversupply in their urban center. To be fair, they may make 200K, but think they should make 250K. I think perception plays a big role.

 

[docwatson]

There is a saying, "Perception is reality". I am a firm believer in this. I think we see it on this and other forums all the time and it's why two people can have totally opposite opinions and not understand how the other person can be so wrong. I think the issue of whether or not there is oversupply is another example of this. For the record, I do not believe we have an oversupply problem right this minute. I do fear that there will be one in the not so distant future. Why do I think this?

1) I agree with KHE that docs are working longer than before and therefore the inventory of available practices for sale continues to decrease
2) I also agree with KHE that the baby boomers are already in the optometric system as presbyopes and the diseases they may get will not be treated by us
3) Additional schools will only increase the supply of OD's with no plan of how to increase the number of available jobs

These are my opinions, and I am not trying to represent them as facts. This is my perception and therefore, reality to me. Does this mean the end of our profession? I have no idea, but I can tell you that my ten year plan involves ideas on how to protect my clinic. Now back to my original point. I finally get it. At least I think I know why there are those that believe we have an oversupply problem now.

Glad you are on board. I'm not sure about a couple of things though...

Whether or not you believe there is an oversupply now or in the future, I don't really think that "now" really matters. You can't affect "right now", but you can affect what happens tomorrow. Therefore, believing that there is an oversupply tomorrow should alarm you and should call you to action, which is sounds like you are doing with your own practice. But what about the profession at large? Could use your voice on ODwire.

Why not post your concerns on ODwire instead of bringing them here? If the discussion is over there, why not post over there? That's where the real action is. There are only a couple of people who have provided their input here and none of them have very much experience (no offense). Wouldn't it be more productive to speak to a great many very experienced veterans on the subject? Just some helpful thoughts. I think everyone (including the young docs and students) should go over there when there are political discussions. This site is too open to prying eyes.

I really don't think the reason POP isn't supported more is because people don't believe in it. I think it's because there are no discussions on POP that are worth participating in and the buying groups aren't worth buying into. ODwire has all the action and most everyone already has their own discounts. I suppose if POP decided to take direction action against one of optometry's "foes" and asked for membership donations, I'm certain the site would grow exponentially. I'm a full member but I don't participate in the forums much, I don't use any of the discounts, and I have no need to ask any of the experts any questions. But I do believe in the concept and I appreciate the efforts of ODwire so I paid my $199.

No I didn't get into much of the real meat of the discussion of oversupply and it is by design.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Why not post your concerns on ODwire instead of bringing them here? If the discussion is over there, why not post over there? That's where the real action is.

It's good question, and hard to answer without offending anyone, but I will try. The doctors on ODwire have already made up their minds about the current and future state of our profession. All the discussions center around how bad the AOA is, how commercial optometry has destroyed us all, why doctors take low ball insurances, and how come there are still OD's that don't practice full-scope optometry. There is no real discussion on how to fix things, only that we are going down the wrong path. It's too tiring to listen to that all day. I would rather focus on the future of our profession and try to get them to understand the issues that will affect us all.

Another reason I choose to no longer post on ODwire is because I just don't think of those docs as my peers. Sure they are OD's just like me, but based on the things they complain about and the way in which they do so, I think we are just in different places in our careers. That's why I belong to a study group of practices that are similar to mine. That way I know that what I say will be interpreted from the same point of reference. I think you will agree that it's too easy to misinterpret posts on these sites.

 

[docwatson]

It's good question, and hard to answer without offending anyone, but I will try. The doctors on ODwire have already made up their minds about the current and future state of our profession. All the discussions center around how bad the AOA is, how commercial optometry has destroyed us all, why doctors take low ball insurances, and how come there are still OD's that don't practice full-scope optometry. There is no real discussion on how to fix things, only that we are going down the wrong path. It's too tiring to listen to that all day. I would rather focus on the future of our profession and try to get them to understand the issues that will affect us all.

Another reason I choose to no longer post on ODwire is because I just don't think of those docs as my peers. Sure they are OD's just like me, but based on the things they complain about and the way in which they do so, I think we are just in different places in our careers. That's why I belong to a study group of practices that are similar to mine. That way I know that what I say will be interpreted from the same point of reference. I think you will agree that it's too easy to misinterpret posts on these sites.

But here you are talking to students and young doctors with little experience. You really sound like you want a real discussion of the issues judging by the large number of responses you have made about this subject. Look at the length of your original post in this thread! Why not talk to those people who have a keen interest in your analysis? I'm sure they would love to talk to you.

I think maybe now you understand why I have had such a hard time talking with you. You don't seem to leave any leeway for discussion. Isn't that how you feel about the docs on ODwire? No offense but really it's my perspective. Hope you respect that.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that ALL doctors on ODwire are unwilling to discuss the topic. I've found that nearly all the docs are very accommodating and easy to talk to.

By the way, when are you going to PM me back with your comments about my apology? Apparently you don't concur or you would have said something by now. Still waiting...

 

[Ben Chudner]

But here you are talking to students and young doctors with little experience. You really sound like you want a real discussion of the issues judging by the large number of responses you have made about this subject. Look at the length of your original post in this thread! Why not talk to those people who have a keen interest in your analysis? I'm sure they would love to talk to you.

I think maybe now you understand why I have had such a hard time talking with you. You don't seem to leave any leeway for discussion. Isn't that how you feel about the docs on ODwire? No offense but really it's my perspective. Hope you respect that.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that ALL doctors on ODwire are unwilling to discuss the topic. I've found that nearly all the docs are very accommodating and easy to talk to.

By the way, when are you going to PM me back with your comments about my apology? Apparently you don't concur or you would have said something by now. Still waiting...

Most students haven't made up their minds yet, so they are open to this type of discussion. They don't carry all of the baggage that docs practicing for several years do. I take exception to your statement that I do not leave leeway for discussion. For someone that has as his signature, "Opposing views accepted", you sure don't like it when someone disagrees with you. I also did not say that the doctors on ODwire are unwilling to discuss the topic. To the contrary, they discuss the topic to death. They have just already made up their minds and quite frankly it's depressing.

About your PM, whether or not I concur is not the issue. I have already stated that I will let my actions speak for me. I didn't think more back and forth PM's would improve the situation.

 

[broadway]

today I had one of those days where half of my pts were medical. I have to you, I make more money when they buy glasses. What I'm I doing wrong.BTW most of my medicals were red eyes iop checks things like that.

 

[docwatson]

Most students haven't made up their minds yet, so they are open to this type of discussion. They don't carry all of the baggage that docs practicing for several years do. I take exception to your statement that I do not leave leeway for discussion. For someone that has as his signature, "Opposing views accepted", you sure don't like it when someone disagrees with you. I also did not say that the doctors on ODwire are unwilling to discuss the topic. To the contrary, they discuss the topic to death. They have just already made up their minds and quite frankly it's depressing.

About your PM, whether or not I concur is not the issue. I have already stated that I will let my actions speak for me. I didn't think more back and forth PM's would improve the situation.

"All the baggage that docs practicing for several years do". Such a low opinion and a very narrow view, but I guess that is how you feel. I disagree. I think all doctors have a lot to offer. I'm even listening to you and I've tried to offer you some advice but you have chosen to reject it without even considering it. That's okay. Time to move on!

 

[daysend85]

But here you are talking to students and young doctors with little experience. You really sound like you want a real discussion of the issues judging by the large number of responses you have made about this subject. Look at the length of your original post in this thread! Why not talk to those people who have a keen interest in your analysis? I'm sure they would love to talk to you.

I think maybe now you understand why I have had such a hard time talking with you. You don't seem to leave any leeway for discussion. Isn't that how you feel about the docs on ODwire? No offense but really it's my perspective. Hope you respect that.

I don't think you can make a blanket statement that ALL doctors on ODwire are unwilling to discuss the topic. I've found that nearly all the docs are very accommodating and easy to talk to.

By the way, when are you going to PM me back with your comments about my apology? Apparently you don't concur or you would have said something by now. Still waiting...

I don't know about anyone else, but I am glad optometrists post on this forum so that students such as myself can gain more understanding about the career. I'm not sure what gives you the right to say where and where not optometrists can post or even dissuade optometrists from posting on this forum.

 

[Ben Chudner]

"All the baggage that docs practicing for several years do". Such a low opinion and a very narrow view, but I guess that is how you feel. I disagree. I think all doctors have a lot to offer. I'm even listening to you and I've tried to offer you some advice but you have chosen to reject it without even considering it. That's okay. Time to move on!

I am sorry that you disagree, but if we agreed on everything, what would we have to discuss? We both obviously care a lot about the profession, and as I have said many times before, I think we agree on more things than we disagree on. I think it's great that you find ODwire useful. I think it can be a great resource for some OD's. I just get tired of the same complaints over and over again, so I have chosen other places to find inspiration and get advice. No hard feelings.

 

[docwatson]

I don't know about anyone else, but I am glad optometrists post on this forum so that students such as myself can gain more understanding about the career. I'm not sure what gives you the right to say where and where not optometrists can post or even dissuade optometrists from posting on this forum.

Wow, talk about a misunderstanding! That wasn't my point at all.

I offered a place for Ben to discuss current issues with his peers. Sure, go ahead and post here as well, but to get a true feeling for what ODs feel, and get a true feeling for the profession, I think subjects like oversupply would get a much better reception on ODwire. He has been harping on getting data to prove the oversupply but really the next best thing is to ask other optometrists. If ODwire doesn't do it, then why not the optcomlist? They both have memberships in the thousands. I really find it hard to believe that *ALL* optometrists on these forums carry a lot of baggage, i.e. are closed minded, and not all of them are old farts. Even IndianaOD is a member of this site and that one and he's a young pup. Many of them are young optometrists and students. Yes, students are allowed on the site. So I'm not convinced that it's such a bad site to discuss the state of our profession. You want data... Go over there.

Keep the discussion going on here as well. I'm only here to help and I'm sure every OD is here to help as well.

If you are student, I recommend that you join the site to get a better incite on the profession yourself.

How do you feel about my response?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I offered a place for Ben to discuss current issues with his peers. Sure, go ahead and post here as well, but to get a true feeling for what ODs feel, and get a true feeling for the profession, I think subjects like oversupply would get a much better reception on ODwire. He has been harping on getting data to prove the oversupply but really the next best thing is to ask other optometrists. If ODwire doesn't do it, then why not the optcomlist? They both have memberships in the thousands. I really find it hard to believe that *ALL* optometrists on these forums carry a lot of baggage, i.e. are closed minded, and not all of them are old farts. Even IndianaOD is a member of this site and that one and he's a young pup. Many of them are young optometrists and students. Yes, students are allowed on the site. So I'm not convinced that it's such a bad site to discuss the state of our profession. You want data... Go over there.

I'm actually going to have to disagree with here. While ODWire does have thousands of members, it seems like the same 20ish do 99% of the posting. I would also be willing to bet that nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the more prolific posters over there. For the most part, unless you hate the AOA, commercial optometry, "refractionists", and the increasing numbers of new grads that site doesn't have all that much to offer.

 

[docwatson]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with here. While ODWire does have thousands of members, it seems like the same 20ish do 99% of the posting. I would also be willing to bet that nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the more prolific posters over there. For the most part, unless you hate the AOA, commercial optometry, "refractionists", and the increasing numbers of new grads that site doesn't have all that much to offer.

It was only my opinion. You apparently think differently.

I'm going to have to assume that you aren't an optometrist or hope to be one. I think the site is dedicated to making a difference in the optometry profession. It is a discussion site to be sure, but the members are going to make attempts to change the profession as a whole by hiring attorneys and almost act as a second association to the AOA. If you disagree with this, I suggest you take your comments over there!

I'm not debating the merits of the site. I'm only telling you what the site is set up for.

 

[docwatson]

...it seems like the same 20ish do 99% of the posting.

Interesting that you should say this... Can you name any site that is different? I think this optometry forum seems to be dominated by less than 10 people mixed in with a stray question or two on occasion from students who need help.

Nothing wrong with this, just the way it is.

Wish it was different though. Could use a lot more discussion.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

I'm going to have to assume that you aren't an optometrist or hope to be one. I think the site is dedicated to making a difference in the optometry profession. It is a discussion site to be sure, but the members are going to make attempts to change the profession as a whole by hiring attorneys and almost act as a second association to the AOA. If you disagree with this, I suggest you take your comments over there!

You're correct, I'm neither OD nor intending to be (dad and both his parents were, and I strongly considered it - but I didn't like the idea of having to fight in the legislature to practice to the level of my training). As such, I doubt the powers that be over there would take kindly to my posting. However, due to reasons I just stated, I have the utmost respect for you guys and truly hope optometry continues to prosper.

That being said, ODWire tends to present a very doom and gloom sort of outlook for the profession - one that I just don't see. Don't get me wrong, some of what's said over there does seem to have merit. For the most part, however, I see it as just the same complaints over and over again with dissenting opinion beat into the ground by the major posters. By contrast, here you get a more positive outlook with a greater variety/tolerance of opinion (to my mind, anyway).

 

[Ben Chudner]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with here. While ODWire does have thousands of members, it seems like the same 20ish do 99% of the posting. I would also be willing to bet that nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the more prolific posters over there. For the most part, unless you hate the AOA, commercial optometry, "refractionists", and the increasing numbers of new grads that site doesn't have all that much to offer.

I do agree that ODwire is dominated by the same few posters even though it has a ton of members. I also agree that dissenting opinions are rarely welcome there. I do disagree that the site doesn't have that much to offer. I find a lot the practice management discussions very useful. Specifically, the coding although you still need to verify some of the info with local carriers. I hope the site will actually live up to Keith's expectations as it tries to become a parallel organization to the AOA. There are some very serious issues that I think ODwire wants to take up that the AOA doesn't. Time will tell, but in the meantime the site is fun to read as it makes me feel better about where I am within the profession.

 

[KHE]

I do agree that ODwire is dominated by the same few posters even though it has a ton of members. I also agree that dissenting opinions are rarely welcome there. I do disagree that the site doesn't have that much to offer. I find a lot the practice management discussions very useful. Specifically, the coding although you still need to verify some of the info with local carriers. I hope the site will actually live up to Keith's expectations as it tries to become a parallel organization to the AOA. There are some very serious issues that I think ODwire wants to take up that the AOA doesn't. Time will tell, but in the meantime the site is fun to read as it makes me feel better about where I am within the profession.

The thing about ODwire is that while it is essentially a "bitchfest" I think it is really the only optometric site out there for ODs to commiserate about the day to day grind of optometric practice. I'm blessed in the sense that my wife is also an OD, so when I go home at the end of the day and say to here "I HAD A PATIENT TODAY WHO.......(fill in the blank)" or "I SPENT AN HOUR ON THE PHONE DEALING WITH INSURANCE COMPANY ......(fill in the blank) then she at least has a frame of reference to understand and sympathize.

For ODs who do not have OD spouses, they may get some sympathy but the spouse usually doesn't have a full understanding of the frustrations. Commiserating in an online forum helps blow off steam.

I do agree however that dissenting opinions are rarely welcome and a couple of the posters are essentially blowhards who are quick to belittle and insult. That is unfortunate, but that's just part and parcel of annonymous internet forums.

 

[IndianaOD]

I'm actually going to have to disagree with here. While ODWire does have thousands of members, it seems like the same 20ish do 99% of the posting. I would also be willing to bet that nothing anyone says is going to change the minds of the more prolific posters over there. For the most part, unless you hate the AOA, commercial optometry, "refractionists", and the increasing numbers of new grads that site doesn't have all that much to offer.

How did you gain access to ODwire? It specifically asks if you are an OD or OD student.

 

[Ben Chudner]

How did you gain access to ODwire? It specifically asks if you are an OD or OD student.

I just looked at the registration and while there are terms you have to agree to, it doesn't look like there is any way for the site to verify if someone is an OD or a student.

 

[docwatson]

I just looked at the registration and while there are terms you have to agree to, it doesn't look like there is any way for the site to verify if someone is an OD or a student.

I believe it comes down to Paul Farkas deciding whether or not you are eligible.

 

[IndianaOD]

I just looked at the registration and while there are terms you have to agree to, it doesn't look like there is any way for the site to verify if someone is an OD or a student.

Not really, I think its mostly the honor system. You can lie your way in.

Just curious if he/she lied their way in for some reason.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Not really, I think its mostly the honor system. You can lie your way in.

Just curious if he/she lied their way in for some reason.

Not at all. As I mentioned, Dad's an OD. Actually, he is the one who directed me here initially and then told me to use his account over at SeniorDoc. As I spent most of my childhood listening to Dad (and both his parents, actually) talking about optometry, I like to keep up with what's going on. This is especially true on the political end of things.

I suspect Dad hoped I'd gain a further appreciation for y'all's skills (since, despite the bitching, if you read enough of the threads it becomes quite obvious how skilled many of you are) so that when I'm out practicing I'm more likely to refer to you over an ophthalmologist unless I know the patient needs surgery.

That all being said, I'm well aware that technically I shouldn't be there. To make up for that, I never post nor do I share what I read with anyone outside of the optometric community.

 

[docwatson]

Not at all. As I mentioned, Dad's an OD. Actually, he is the one who directed me here initially and then told me to use his account over at SeniorDoc. As I spent most of my childhood listening to Dad (and both his parents, actually) talking about optometry, I like to keep up with what's going on. This is especially true on the political end of things.

I suspect Dad hoped I'd gain a further appreciation for y'all's skills (since, despite the bitching, if you read enough of the threads it becomes quite obvious how skilled many of you are) so that when I'm out practicing I'm more likely to refer to you over an ophthalmologist unless I know the patient needs surgery.

That all being said, I'm well aware that technically I shouldn't be there. To make up for that, I never post nor do I share what I read with anyone outside of the optometric community.

Heck I can see this and I wouldn't have a problem with VA Hopeful being on the forums since his dad is an OD and he seems to have respect for the profession. No forum is 100% fool proof. But I think ODwire is better than this one for "security". Here, you don't even need to be a member to read everything and it makes me wonder what the search engines pick up. From what I understand, ODwire is protected against this.

By the way, why is your name "VA Hopeful Dr"? Do you really want to work in the VA system??? What kind of doctor are you shooting for? Just curious... (I'm sure you've been asked this before)

As far as referring, I think it's a matter of knowing the doctors in the community. Not all of them have skilled brains or hands including OMDs and ODs. I'm of the opinion that one should refer to who you communicate well with, who is good at communicating to the patient and is nice about it, and is skilled enough to make the right diagnosis. So many docs only worry about the medical aspects and not the personality. If it was me, I wouldn't want someone with extreme god-mentality working on me. I wouldn't know if he was necessarily looking out for my best interests or even telling me everything I should know.

Some docs even have the impression that it's best to refer to a jerk so you get the patient back. I think it's wrong and I think it reflects on the person who made the referral!

 

[Ben Chudner]

As far as referring, I think it's a matter of knowing the doctors in the community. Not all of them have skilled brains or hands including OMDs and ODs. I'm of the opinion that one should refer to who you communicate well with, who is good at communicating to the patient and is nice about it, and is skilled enough to make the right diagnosis. So many docs only worry about the medical aspects and not the personality. If it was me, I wouldn't want someone with extreme god-mentality working on me. I wouldn't know if he was necessarily looking out for my best interests or even telling me everything I should know.

Some docs even have the impression that it's best to refer to a jerk so you get the patient back. I think it's wrong and I think it reflects on the person who made the referral!

Well said!

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Heck I can see this and I wouldn't have a problem with VA Hopeful being on the forums since his dad is an OD and he seems to have respect for the profession. No forum is 100% fool proof. But I think ODwire is better than this one for "security". Here, you don't even need to be a member to read everything and it makes me wonder what the search engines pick up. From what I understand, ODwire is protected against this.

You should wander over to the EM forum. Every few weeks some random schmuck comes into the "Medical Ebonics" or "Things I learned from my patients" threads and raises all holy hell about the callous, mean, judgemental doctors.

By the way, why is your name "VA Hopeful Dr"? Do you really want to work in the VA system??? What kind of doctor are you shooting for? Just curious... (I'm sure you've been asked this before)

When I signed up here I was still a lowly pre-med doing undergrad in Virginia. Not sure what kind - originally thought about ophthalmology, but sadly I've made a C or two in med school so that's shot. Maybe family medicine. Got a relative back home who's in family med, both of his partners are getting on in years. I'm hoping that by the time I'd ready to start practicing, one or both of them will be retiring, can just slide right in. If this happens, I'll likely be sending much more to you guys (what family doc actually picks up all that much stuff that needs immediate surgery). If I've got a diabetic that just needs 6M-1yr monitoring exams, I'd much rather it be an OD who actually gives a damn versus the MD seeing 60+ patients a day.

As far as referring, I think it's a matter of knowing the doctors in the community. Not all of them have skilled brains or hands including OMDs and ODs. I'm of the opinion that one should refer to who you communicate well with, who is good at communicating to the patient and is nice about it, and is skilled enough to make the right diagnosis. So many docs only worry about the medical aspects and not the personality. If it was me, I wouldn't want someone with extreme god-mentality working on me. I wouldn't know if he was necessarily looking out for my best interests or even telling me everything I should know.

Some docs even have the impression that it's best to refer to a jerk so you get the patient back. I think it's wrong and I think it reflects on the person who made the referral!

Completely agree, although that last part about referring to jerks to get patients back is new to me. I wouldn't do it just for that reason, but if your main cat surgery guy is a jerk - well, who would notice? The consult visit he'll see the patient all of 5 minutes tops, they're knocked out for the procedure itself, then you pick up the post-op. Again, I wouldn't do it for the referral reason, but if the best surgeon in town is a huge jackass.... well, he'd likely still get some of my patients.

 

[docwatson]

You should wander over to the EM forum. Every few weeks some random schmuck comes into the "Medical Ebonics" or "Things I learned from my patients" threads and raises all holy hell about the callous, mean, judgemental doctors.

When I signed up here I was still a lowly pre-med doing undergrad in Virginia. Not sure what kind - originally thought about ophthalmology, but sadly I've made a C or two in med school so that's shot. Maybe family medicine. Got a relative back home who's in family med, both of his partners are getting on in years. I'm hoping that by the time I'd ready to start practicing, one or both of them will be retiring, can just slide right in. If this happens, I'll likely be sending much more to you guys (what family doc actually picks up all that much stuff that needs immediate surgery). If I've got a diabetic that just needs 6M-1yr monitoring exams, I'd much rather it be an OD who actually gives a damn versus the MD seeing 60+ patients a day.

Completely agree, although that last part about referring to jerks to get patients back is new to me. I wouldn't do it just for that reason, but if your main cat surgery guy is a jerk - well, who would notice? The consult visit he'll see the patient all of 5 minutes tops, they're knocked out for the procedure itself, then you pick up the post-op. Again, I wouldn't do it for the referral reason, but if the best surgeon in town is a huge jackass.... well, he'd likely still get some of my patients.

We don't get to do post-ops here in this part of CT. For some reason, the OMDs have gotten away with collusion and blocked out all the ODs from doing follow ups on cataract surgeries. There's a couple of docs that I could refer to where I could at least do a 1 week post op but it's generally too far away.

Yeah, best surgeon in town is a jerk then you don't have any choice.

Want to do me a favor and convince the dozen or so family docs in my area to refer to me then? Why are they referring their patients to the local OMD jerk down the street? I don't think I've ever seen an office that was more hostile. What's odd is that the entire staff is under 5'4". It's no joke.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

We don't get to do post-ops here in this part of CT. For some reason, the OMDs have gotten away with collusion and blocked out all the ODs from doing follow ups on cataract surgeries. There's a couple of docs that I could refer to where I could at least do a 1 week post op but it's generally too far away.

Yeah, best surgeon in town is a jerk then you don't have any choice.

Want to do me a favor and convince the dozen or so family docs in my area to refer to me then? Why are they referring their patients to the local OMD jerk down the street? I don't think I've ever seen an office that was more hostile. What's odd is that the entire staff is under 5'4". It's no joke.

Back before we got a decent MD in town who would comanage, Dad would often send patients 30-45 minutes away to a surgeon who would. Now, in his defense, the guys in town just aren't very good (I've seen some of their post-op patients - inflammation like you wouldn't believe) so it wasn't purely a comanage thing, it just worked out that the really good surgeons around here want to spend more time cutting and less time doing post-ops.

As for the family docs - good luck. My uncle, obviously, sent patients Dad's way. However, when Dad stopped practicing, I started seeing more and more of my uncle's patients showing up at the ophthalmology clinic where I worked. Although, Dad was about the only OD in town who didn't make significantly over half his gross on materials (and it showed at the other places) - that might have something to do with it. Either way, I think its significant that despite years of good relations between an MD and an OD, it was really the family angle that mattered most.

Something I didn't appreciate before I got to med school - most med students have absolutely no idea what optometry is, how y'all are trained, and so on. I remember a small get-together during my first week where I spent a good 15 minutes trying to explain to some of my classmates what an OD was. They were clueless. It gets worse during training since we're taught, basically by rote to send eye problems to ophthalmology. Specifically ophthalmology, not just an eye doctor. Its hard to fight 7+ years of that.

 

[stevemc1]

I'm one of the frequent posters on ODWire. I never cease to be amazed about the differences in the economic outlook in the profession. Generally, more established ODs are the ones that often say there is no over supply. These folks often have older practices that were likely bought and paid for long ago with revenue made in the days of $300 conventional contact lenses, and before legislation requiring the release of spectacle and contact lens prescriptions. WalMart, and Lux were either non-existant or just begininng to place their nasty imprint on our profession.

Dr. Chudner, in your focus group, how many are out of school for 5 years or less? 10 years? For reference, I meet the monetary "guidelines" to be in your focus group. I'm doing pretty good 5 years out of OD school, but I don't think the majority of our colleagues are so fortunate. I have several friends that have tried and failed in practice. These were not dumb people. They were smart, worked hard and couldn't make it. Heck I bought the hard assets of a young lady after her bankruptcy. (good for me, not her so much).

I appreciate everyone's view here, and on ODWire, but I have yet to meet a "mature" OD that has the faintest idea of market forces for a start-up Optometry practice in today's world. That's not meant to be an insult. After all, how could you know? Oh, occassionally some OD will brag on their success about starting a "new" practice after all these years. They fail to mention: 1) no student debt and 2) significant seed money (CASH) from previous businesses and investments Neither one of these are luxeries shared by new and recent grads.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Dr. Chudner, in your focus group, how many are out of school for 5 years or less? 10 years? For reference, I meet the monetary "guidelines" to be in your focus group. I'm doing pretty good 5 years out of OD school, but I don't think the majority of our colleagues are so fortunate. I have several friends that have tried and failed in practice. These were not dumb people. They were smart, worked hard and couldn't make it. Heck I bought the hard assets of a young lady after her bankruptcy. (good for me, not her so much).

Our study group consists of practices grossing beween 1 and 3 million dollars a year. When we first started the group 6 years ago, there were 3 of us that had been practicing less than 5 years. Another 2 that had been practicing between 5 and 10 years. And the other 5 had been out over 10 years. Of course, now those numbers are no longer correct.

I appreciate everyone's view here, and on ODWire, but I have yet to meet a "mature" OD that has the faintest idea of market forces for a start-up Optometry practice in today's world. That's not meant to be an insult. After all, how could you know? Oh, occassionally some OD will brag on their success about starting a "new" practice after all these years. They fail to mention: 1) no student debt and 2) significant seed money (CASH) from previous businesses and investments Neither one of these are luxeries shared by new and recent grads.

What is your cut-off for "mature" OD?

 

[stevemc1]

Our study group consists of practices grossing beween 1 and 3 million dollars a year. When we first started the group 6 years ago, there were 3 of us that had been practicing less than 5 years. Another 2 that had been practicing between 5 and 10 years. And the other 5 had been out over 10 years. Of course, now those numbers are no longer correct.What is your cut-off for "mature" OD?

Awesome. I'm glad to hear that. I really am.

Arbitrary cut off for "mature practice".....some guy who paid for his real estate and equipment before requirement to release CL rx.

Heck I don't know, I know it when I see it.

Unfortunately, I hear about many more failures than successes. Maybe failures tend to be more vocal. Who knows.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Awesome. I'm glad to hear that. I really am.

Arbitrary cut off for "mature practice".....some guy who paid for his real estate and equipment before requirement to release CL rx.

Heck I don't know, I know it when I see it.

Unfortunately, I hear about many more failures than successes. Maybe failures tend to be more vocal. Who knows.

I can tell you that each of us that have been practicing for 10 years now, bought our pactices from mature docs based on the negotiation stories.

I would tend to think that successful docs are less vocal. I also think that success or failure has nothing to do with intellegence. Some of the most successful docs from my graduating class were not at the top of the gpa list. They had great people skills and I think that goes a long way.

You said something before about mature docs not understanding the market forces today for starting up an optometry office. I think that's correct, and they also tend to overvalue their practice. But based on the posts I see blasting young docs for going commercial, I think there are plenty of younger OD's that do not understand the marketplace for new grads. Comming out of school with as much debt as they do, I can see how appealing commercial practice must seem. Is it short-sighted? I think so, but I am not in their shoes. The bottom line is that until I see OD's unable to find jobs, I will not be convinced there is an oversupply problem. Not making what the AOA says is average, does not prove oversupply. It only proves there are OD's making more than you. And by "you", I mean whoever is not making the average.

 

[stevemc1]

The bottom line is that until I see OD's unable to find jobs, I will not be convinced there is an oversupply problem. Not making what the AOA says is average, does not prove oversupply. It only proves there are OD's making more than you. And by "you", I mean whoever is not making the average.

I disagree. By that reasoning, as long as LC and WM keep opening opticals there will be no oversupply. I'll bet, but can't prove, you could close down every OD school out there for 5 years, and after that 5 year period not one person would ever utter the words "I sure wish there were more optometrists out there". Well except for the poor sap in rural America somewhere who can't get a glasses exam at 7:00 PM on a Saturday. Oh the horror of it!

Of course young ODs don't understand the marketplace, but they get a crash course REAL fast. It'd be like removing all the hard assets and patient files, from an established practice, and then making them recredential on all the vision and medical insurance panels. THAT is an apples to apples comparison. Well, at least after adding in about 100 G in student debt. That being said....commercial just prolongs the learning curve.

You're right, IMO, it is definitely a regional thing. BTW, Ben, are you politically inclined, professionally speaking? Just curious.

 

[qwopty99]

The bottom line is that until I see OD's unable to find jobs, I will not be convinced there is an oversupply problem.

do u believe there is a reasonable "minimum" wage that a minimally-but-competent OD should expect to earn?

or do u simply believe that only if such ODs go unemployed, that there is a problem?

 

[Ben Chudner]

I disagree. By that reasoning, as long as LC and WM keep opening opticals there will be no oversupply. I'll bet, but can't prove, you could close down every OD school out there for 5 years, and after that 5 year period not one person would ever utter the words "I sure wish there were more optometrists out there". Well except for the poor sap in rural America somewhere who can't get a glasses exam at 7:00 PM on a Saturday. Oh the horror of it!

You make a valid point and I think you are right about closing the schools. If WM and LC continue to open opticals, then by my reasoning there will never be an oversupply. The issue I have is that WM and LC are multi-billion dollar companies that know a lot about business. I find it hard to believe that they don't look at market forces. It may seem as though they will put an optical on every corner, but they do understand (as has been pointed out on every anti-corporate thread) that the OD needs to be busy in order to drive optical sales. It doesn't make sense for them to devote expensive retail square footage to an optometrist that they can't be sure will be busy. I think that the fact that they continue to open opticals shows that they don't believe there is an oversupply just yet. I have sad before that I think we have issues to be concerned about with regards to the future and future oversupply is one of them.

Of course young ODs don't understand the marketplace, but they get a crash course REAL fast. It'd be like removing all the hard assets and patient files, from an established practice, and then making them recredential on all the vision and medical insurance panels. THAT is an apples to apples comparison. Well, at least after adding in about 100 G in student debt. That being said....commercial just prolongs the learning curve.

I also believe commercial traps young OD's and if they stay too long, it is very hard for them to get out. Private OD's just don't want to pay new associates enough to make it easy for them to leave commercial.

You're right, IMO, it is definitely a regional thing. BTW, Ben, are you politically inclined, professionally speaking? Just curious.

There is no doubt that if I were to ask my friends that stayed in the Bay Area if there is an oversupply problem, no matter how successful they are, they would all say yes. I guess I am lucky in that I live far enough away from a school that I don't have that problem. Just keep that between you and I. I have been politically inclined in the past. I was very involved in Washington state politics up until about 2 years ago. When the doc I bought the practice from retired, I had to step back and focus more on my practice. I have never been active on a national level.

 

[Ben Chudner]

do u believe there is a reasonable "minimum" wage that a minimally-but-competent OD should expect to earn?

or do u simply believe that only if such ODs go unemployed, that there is a problem?

That's a very good question and also very difficult to answer. I think it goes right to the point of oversupply. How much should an OD make? If the average is below that amount, isn't that a more accurate indication of oversupply compared to unemployment rates? I think the answer to how much an OD makes depends on who you ask, so I don't know how you could take a number and use it as the standard to determine if OD's are not making enough. I think you can take average salaries and see what trends there are. I don't know if the AOA numbers are accurate, but if they used the same methods to gather the info, hopefully they are consistent. Using their averages, OD salaries have grown although not necessarily at the same rate as inflation. I haven't looked at other health professions, but I would be interested to see if they have seen the same trend. As reimbursements get reduced, it's harder to produce the same amount every year. Even with reduced rembursements, OD's general reluctance to raising fees, economic factors, and anything else I might have missed, OD's are still seeing some increase in salary every year. It may not be much, but it isn't decreasing, and I think that says something.

 

[stevemc1]

You make a valid point and I think you are right about closing the schools. If WM and LC continue to open opticals, then by my reasoning there will never be an oversupply. The issue I have is that WM and LC are multi-billion dollar companies that know a lot about business. I find it hard to believe that they don't look at market forces. It may seem as though they will put an optical on every corner, but they do understand (as has been pointed out on every anti-corporate thread) that the OD needs to be busy in order to drive optical sales. It doesn't make sense for them to devote expensive retail square footage to an optometrist that they can't be sure will be busy. .

Of course it makes sense. There's absolutely no shortage of folks, that would stab another OD in the back for their corporate lease. LC knows this, and burn 'em and turn 'em as fast as they care. They don't care about you or me.

LC manager: "Take it or leave it sparky. There's a bunch of you out there. Oversupply...haven't you heard. Don't get no bright ideas newbie, 'cause private practice docs can't pay you either. We're slowly chopping away at their profits heheheheheh. Now get yo arse back to work (whip cracking) or I'll grab that OD on the corner that keeps asking about your job, and give him your job!"

Enough of that. Sorry, I'm goofy today, slammed all day with no lunch break.

 

[stevemc1]

OD's are still seeing some increase in salary every year. It may not be much, but it isn't decreasing, and I think that says something.

The rate of increase is diminishing. I believe growth is rising at a pace lower than the rate of inflation, last I saw. That also says something, and what it says is we're losing ground.

 

[killbill2]

There is a saying, "Perception is reality". I am a firm believer in this. I think we see it on this and other forums all the time and it's why two people can have totally opposite opinions and not understand how the other person can be so wrong. I think the issue of whether or not there is oversupply is another example of this.

Dear Dr. Chudner,

I am glad hear that you are doing so well. However, I believe that your logic is deeply flawed and ethically disturbing. Most people do not subscribe to the saying, ‘perception is reality’, and able to see the reality as it really is. This is why we know there are people who do not have enough to eat while we do not experience hunger ourselves and we do not know anybody who experiences it. .

There are many successful optometrists who are nonetheless concerned about the over-supply problem because they are aware that a lot of their colleagues are struggling.
Stevemc1 and Docwatson can do this. Why can’t you?

I hope that you would try to grow out of your childish and ego-centric way of seeing the world, and become a more mature person. This will prove to be more important than merely being a successful optometrist.

 

[blazenmadison]

Dear Dr. Chudner,

I am glad hear that you are doing so well. However, I believe that your logic is deeply flawed and ethically disturbing. Most people do not subscribe to the saying, ‘perception is reality’, and able to see the reality as it really is. This is why we know there are people who do not have enough to eat while we do not experience hunger ourselves and we do not know anybody who experiences it. .

There are many successful optometrists who are nonetheless concerned about the over-supply problem because they are aware that a lot of their colleagues are struggling.
Stevemc1 and Docwatson can do this. Why can’t you?

I hope that you would try to grow out of your childish and ego-centric way of seeing the world, and become a more mature person. This will prove to be more important than merely being a successful optometrist.

Dr. Chudner is a well-respected OD who speaks at national conventions across the country. He has much greater insight into optometry than you as a pre-health student. SDN is privileged to have him as an adviser.
I don't think he deserves that type of scrutiny.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Enough of that. Sorry, I'm goofy today, slammed all day with no lunch break.

No need to apologize. I thought it was funny. I am also glad to hear that oversupply has not caused your office to be slow today.

 

[Ben Chudner]

The rate of increase is diminishing. I believe growth is rising at a pace lower than the rate of inflation, last I saw. That also says something, and what it says is we're losing ground.

Unfortunately, I believe you are right. I have said time and time again that I do believe we could be headed for difficult times. What you have written above may be the sign of that. However, I still hear the same complaints from my ophthalmology friends and even some of my dentist friends that the increases in salary each year are not like they were before. I think there are many factors that play a role in this. Oversupply may be one, although I think there are others. Reimbursements from insurance companies have not kept up with inflation for example. VSP is the greatest example, because if you are like me, you are already at the highest level of reimbursement for your area. I practice in a military town so the war effects my practice to some degree. I am sure there are plenty of local issues that affect other practices as well. I think healthcare in general is seeing this reduced rate of growth and I don't think it's all because of oversupply, but if you have read my previous posts, you should know that I am not sure and I am interested in hearing the other side. I may argue against it, but I am interested in hearing it.

 

[Ben Chudner]

Dear Dr. Chudner,

I am glad hear that you are doing so well. However, I believe that your logic is deeply flawed and ethically disturbing. Most people do not subscribe to the saying, ‘perception is reality', and able to see the reality as it really is. This is why we know there are people who do not have enough to eat while we do not experience hunger ourselves and we do not know anybody who experiences it. .

There are many successful optometrists who are nonetheless concerned about the over-supply problem because they are aware that a lot of their colleagues are struggling.
Stevemc1 and Docwatson can do this. Why can't you?

I hope that you would try to grow out of your childish and ego-centric way of seeing the world, and become a more mature person. This will prove to be more important than merely being a successful optometrist.

Welcome to the forum killbill2. I am honored that you chose to use your first post to label my way of seeing the world as childish and ego-centric. Oh, and to state that I am immature and my logic is deeply flawed and ethically disturbing. It would be easy to say that only an immature person would attack another poster using an anonymous screen name, but that would be rude. I encourage you to read my previous posts in this and other threads. I am sure you will see that I care very deeply for this profession and I am concerned for it's future. I have stated on numerous occasions that I am concerned that we will have an oversupply problem if we continue down the path of increased schools and older docs refusing to retire. My view of the optometric world comes from travelling around the country speaking to OD's. I can assure you no one in optometry is starving. They may not make as much as they think they should, and maybe quite a few of them do not make what someone with our education should, but a starving OD would be a rare finding. In fact, I think it says something about a person that feels an OD making a minimum of 70 to 80K is struggling. There are plenty of people is this world that would be very happy with that salary.

 

[stevemc1]

. In fact, I think it says something about a person that feels an OD making a minimum of 70 to 80K is struggling. There are plenty of people is this world that would be very happy with that salary.

While I certainly don't think your statements are childish or egocentric, I find that kind of logic signficantly flawed; The bureau of labor statistics list the average OD salary below $90,000 in the USA. I don't think it's a stretch to say that's way too low for a person with the training an Optometrist receives in this country. To further expound on that logic:

There are plenty of people in this world that would be happy to have one meal per day

There are lenty of people in this world, that would be happy just to have a high school diploma

There are plenty of peolple in this world, that would be happy to live in a cave

There are plenty of people in this world that wojuld be happy to have just one leg

We can go on and on, but what it boils down to is...WE as Optometrist should NOT be satified with such a low average salary, considering the amount of time and money it takes to become an Optometrist. It's all relative...but we're not JUST anyone. You can point your finger squarely at over supply...that's the reason we get paid (on average) like registered nurses.

 

[docwatson]

You make a valid point and I think you are right about closing the schools. If WM and LC continue to open opticals, then by my reasoning there will never be an oversupply. The issue I have is that WM and LC are multi-billion dollar companies that know a lot about business. I find it hard to believe that they don't look at market forces. It may seem as though they will put an optical on every corner, but they do understand (as has been pointed out on every anti-corporate thread) that the OD needs to be busy in order to drive optical sales. It doesn't make sense for them to devote expensive retail square footage to an optometrist that they can't be sure will be busy. I think that the fact that they continue to open opticals shows that they don't believe there is an oversupply just yet.

You know that Wal-Mart is only concerned about closing down "the other guy", right? What they are doing is not necessarily looking to take up any slack in the industry, they are looking to dominate it. They are looking to take away business from other optometrists.

You can argue that "Wally doesn't effect my business because I'm high end", well, there's only so much room at the top. I don't think it's healthy for the profession if we have a lot of ODs who are struggling in private practice and a select few who are doing great. Maybe you are of the opinion that we no longer need private practice docs. Maybe you are of the opinion the more commercial docs the better for me and my buddies because it means less direct competition for us. I don't know. No offense but you know, when you are happy with your own situation, you tend not to worry about other concerns. Like you said, more successful docs tend to not post much on forums.

I think every OD should have the opportunity to have a million dollar practice. Isn't it going to be harder and harder to do this if the market influx of ODs continues on its current trend? I know you agree about the oversupply of schools. Doesn't this translate into an oversupply of ODs??? Why not open 10 more schools?

Can you invite me to be in your club Ben? I'd like to find out why they don't seem to be concerned about the future of the profession. Does this issue ever come up?

By the way, how did you get all these docs in the same club? Did the club advertise "only million dollar grossing practices allowed"? Is this some kind of Vision Source thing? Are your practices scattered around the country? Just wondering...

 

[IndianaOD]

Dr. Chudner is a well-respected OD who speaks at national conventions across the country. He has much greater insight into optometry than you as a pre-health student. SDN is privileged to have him as an adviser.
I don't think he deserves that type of scrutiny.

Wow, is someone hoping for a job? Wipe that brown smudge off your nose!

I'm sure Dr. C is a decent fellow, but those lectures pay good money. I've done some continuing Ed CE. I need to get me some OD student followers.

Where you at peeps?

 

[Ben Chudner]

While I certainly don't think your statements are childish or egocentric, I find that kind of logic signficantly flawed; The bureau of labor statistics list the average OD salary below $90,000 in the USA. I don't think it's a stretch to say that's way too low for a person with the training an Optometrist receives in this country.

Acually, the BLS lists the median salary of employed OD's at below $90,000 - $88,410 to be exact. The median salary of all optometrists is listed as $114,000. This comes from the AOA, but it is listed on the BLS site. The mean salary for OD's is listed at $98,550. For comparison, the mean salary for RN's is listed as $59,730.

We can go back and forth all day, but let's cut to the chase. How much do you think the average salary for an OD should be?

 

[stevemc1]

Acually, the BLS lists the median salary of employed OD's at below $90,000 - $88,410 to be exact. The median salary of all optometrists is listed as $114,000. This comes from the AOA, but it is listed on the BLS site. The mean salary for OD's is listed at $98,550. For comparison, the mean salary for RN's is listed as $59,730.

We can go back and forth all day, but let's cut to the chase. How much do you think the average salary for an OD should be?

Good points. As far as the average OD pay...I admit is tricky, due to the number of part-time ODs in the work force.

Give me time to think about it.

 

[Ben Chudner]

I think every OD should have the opportunity to have a million dollar practice. Isn't it going to be harder and harder to do this if the market influx of ODs continues on its current trend? I know you agree about the oversupply of schools. Doesn't this translate into an oversupply of ODs??? Why not open 10 more schools?

Can you invite me to be in your club Ben? I'd like to find out why they don't seem to be concerned about the future of the profession. Does this issue ever come up?

By the way, how did you get all these docs in the same club? Did the club advertise "only million dollar grossing practices allowed"? Is this some kind of Vision Source thing? Are your practices scattered around the country? Just wondering...

For the record, I believe every OD has the opportunity to have a million dollar practice, but not every OD has the ability to. I hate to say it, but not all OD's have all of the skills necessary to become that successful, and I am not talking about clinical skills. Your point about how I feel about the new schools is inaccurate. I believe opening NEW schools is dangerous. Doing so, IMHO will lead to oversupply, but that does not necessarily translate to oversupply today. I think the number of new grads each year is not that out of line. I have been looking for data to see how much the number of OD's has grown in relation to the US population. If the number of Americans per OD has not decreased significantly over the past 20 years, we may not be graduating too many OD's, but adding more schools would change that.

Coincindentally, I am in Chicago this weekend for our semi-annual meeting. Our group was brought together by Cleinman Performance Network because of our practice size. We left to go out on our own, and we rarely add people to the group. You would have to know someone in the group that knows your practice really well that could recomend you. We do not advertise for new members. We are scattered around the country, so that no one competes with anyone else in the group. We are all very concerned with the future of the profession, and in fact 2 AOA trustees are in our group. What we don't do is complain about how the current oversupply situation and the number of corporate docs is causing us to make less money.

 

[IndianaOD]

Acually, the BLS lists the median salary of employed OD's at below $90,000 - $88,410 to be exact. The median salary of all optometrists is listed as $114,000. This comes from the AOA, but it is listed on the BLS site. The mean salary for OD's is listed at $98,550. For comparison, the mean salary for RN's is listed as $59,730.

We can go back and forth all day, but let's cut to the chase. How much do you think the average salary for an OD should be?

Minimum $120k. Though since our training is equal to dentists, $180k.

Realistically I think it should be around $140k