***Oversupply of Pharmacists***

[OTFuturePharmD]

Take a look at this article from Drug Topics magazine. Our current salaries and future prospect of salaries is not that dire. I live in one of the major metropolises on the east coast. There are plenty of pharmacy opportunities. The key is experience, aka residency. For us starting pharm school or in pharm school now, residency may be a neccesity to have lots of options and a competitive salary.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...to-clim/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/585679

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[SHC1984]

One of my cousins just graduated and got a 120K job with a 25K signing bonus. Even if it gets 30% worse than that in four or five years, you're looking at 84K (and probably no bonus). What are your other options that would make this so unappealing?

How about the 100K student loans that you will have to pay back. If you owe 100K how in the hell are you suppose to pay that back with only 84k a year BEFORE TAXES? Unless your parents are paying for your tuition there will be no way to pay it back with that salary.

 

[BanBidil]

How about the 100K student loans that you will have to pay back. If you owe 100K how in the hell are you suppose to pay that back with only 84k a year BEFORE TAXES? Unless your parents are paying for your tuition there will be no way to pay it back with that salary.

THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING. This subject has been beat to death......
Yawn..... Every day is dooms day especially when those 3.9 GPA students graduate and didn't network to get job. Read your books dummies, population is is getting older, more people than ever have access to drugs. You can always start your own business if you have a brain. You can work for an HMO if you don't want to use your brain. You can do nuclear pham, specialize in psych care, diabetes, amb care with certification programs, no need for a residency.... and yes if you like living in the basement and not talking to patients and looking at charts and following a algorithm and guidelines which change every 2 years, you be hospital pharmacist. There will always be demand.

But if you want $150k for counting to 30 at WAGS, with a fat bonus....those days are OVER.

 

[SHC1984]

THE SKY IS FALLING, THE SKY IS FALLING. This subject has been beat to death......
Yawn..... Every day is dooms day especially when those 3.9 GPA students graduate and didn't network to get job. Read your books dummies, population is is getting older, more people than ever have access to drugs. You can always start your own business if you have a brain. You can work for an HMO if you don't want to use your brain. You can do nuclear pham, specialize in psych care, diabetes, amb care with certification programs, no need for a residency.... and yes if you like living in the basement and not talking to patients and looking at charts and following a algorithm and guidelines which change every 2 years, you be hospital pharmacist. There will always be demand.

But if you want $150k for counting to 30 at WAGS, with a fat bonus....those days are OVER.

nah, I am looking into mail order. However I do have a job interview at Target coming up on June 4th. No more Wags for me. Thank god!

 

[jasonbourne]

Yah pretty much Confettii... It's really routine nowadays for people wanting Psychology Ph.D/Psy.D to pay 150-275k for a degree that will, at best, start you off at $65,000 a year... And even with decent interest rates on those loans, you're still looking at a vow of poverty if you have a family, any debt at all and such.

I see Pharmacy heading in much the same way. People lured in to schools offering admission and a PharmD with subpar academics but at a higher pricetag, eventually forcing salary for Pharmacists down (Walmart isn't stupid. If there are 25 Pharmacists applying for the same opening at a store, they'll take the one who asks for the least amount of money.)

This is exactly what has happened to Psychology and Clinical Psychologists in the last 6 years that I witnessed happen... and it's pretty damn sad. The only thing Pharmacy has going for it over Psychology is the fact that healthcare needs Pharmacists daily, whereas Psychologists are easily passed over for LCSW and MFT clinicians who we called the insurance golden children.

I've pontificated on this a number of times, but I would be really surprised if, in 3 or 4 years, we're not seeing Pharmacy salaries dipping to around 60, 65 and going up with experience, instead of just starting at 85-95. Not saying 65k a year is bad by any stretch, but if you have 155k in loans to pay back, you're gonna be hurtin'.

It's sad =/

I always read all your posts because they make sense but i always fall asleep towards the end. They are so long . If i was your english professor, I will limit you to half a page.

 

[FarscapeGirl]

I always read all your posts because they make sense but i always fall asleep towards the end. They are so long . If i was your english professor, I will limit you to half a page.

Jasonbourne, I hope you don't become anyone's English professor, considering the amount of grammatical errors in your above post! If you were an English professor as well, you'd realize that Passion4Sci writes pretty well, and while his posts are sometimes long, they quickly get to the point.

It is the internet; I think everyone skims posts at times!. No one will test you on what you miss.

So, for everyone's grammar education for the day: "If I was..." is a violation of the subjunctive tense. It should be "If I were..." Hence the bold above!

 

[thephoenician88]

Yah pretty much Confettii... It's really routine nowadays for people wanting Psychology Ph.D/Psy.D to pay 150-275k for a degree that will, at best, start you off at $65,000 a year... And even with decent interest rates on those loans, you're still looking at a vow of poverty if you have a family, any debt at all and such.

I see Pharmacy heading in much the same way. People lured in to schools offering admission and a PharmD with subpar academics but at a higher pricetag, eventually forcing salary for Pharmacists down (Walmart isn't stupid. If there are 25 Pharmacists applying for the same opening at a store, they'll take the one who asks for the least amount of money.)

This is exactly what has happened to Psychology and Clinical Psychologists in the last 6 years that I witnessed happen... and it's pretty damn sad. The only thing Pharmacy has going for it over Psychology is the fact that healthcare needs Pharmacists daily, whereas Psychologists are easily passed over for LCSW and MFT clinicians who we called the insurance golden children.

I've pontificated on this a number of times, but I would be really surprised if, in 3 or 4 years, we're not seeing Pharmacy salaries dipping to around 60, 65 and going up with experience, instead of just starting at 85-95. Not saying 65k a year is bad by any stretch, but if you have 155k in loans to pay back, you're gonna be hurtin'.

It's sad =/

and this is the golden ticket right there, a pharmacist is technically part of a health care team in which he can provide his input on interactions and drugs. Even good community pharmacists can do this. A psychiatrist, on the other hand, and especially in an economic situation such as this, might and could be forgoed by simply asking their general doc. Hey doc, i'm depressed. Hey patient, here's some lexapro and a coupon.

Am i saying psychiatrists and pointless and not needed? No, i've met a few who are very smart and know exactly what they're doing, even if they have to juggle a few jobs. But the fields are different, and while the paths may be similar, the results differ.

 

[triumphbr]

I beg to differ. I've had plenty of jobs over the years and pharmacy is definitely a job that I love. If I were only getting $65K a year I'd still do pharmacy because through working in the profession and learning more about it I love it more. I could do this job with half the pay and still be happy. There are going to be days where everything feels like it's gone completely insane, but that's with any job. Just because you haven't found something that you truly love to do doesn't mean it's not out there. If you can live with doing pharmacy without hating it, then use the money you have to do what you have a passion for or find out what you have a passion for and do it. The salary of a pharmacist will allow you to do that.

and how long have you actually worked as a pharmacist? oh.. thats right.. yeah you didn't read my whole post.

try it again sam.

there are plenty of things out there that I truly love... it's just that "work" isn't one of them. There is a reason they have to pay you to do things afterall.

If someone wants to pay me (fairly) well to keep my garden up, play with my kid, go motorcycle(or even bicycle) riding, golfing occasionally and mow my yard I'll be all for it.

 

[confettiflyer]

Take a look at this article from Drug Topics magazine. Our current salaries and future prospect of salaries is not that dire. I live in one of the major metropolises on the east coast. There are plenty of pharmacy opportunities. The key is experience, aka residency. For us starting pharm school or in pharm school now, residency may be a neccesity to have lots of options and a competitive salary.

http://drugtopics.modernmedicine.co...to-clim/ArticleStandard/Article/detail/585679

residencies are a load of ****, but will probably be necessary. argh. i didn't go to med school for a reason, being able to practice right out of school and gain experience at full salary was one of the little bonuses.

 

[Passion4Sci]

residencies are a load of ****, but will probably be necessary. argh. i didn't go to med school for a reason, being able to practice right out of school and gain experience at full salary was one of the little bonuses.

As long as there are no rotations, I'll still be happy I didn't choose to pursue med school.

I've had enough moving around for one lifetime.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

Call me a worrywart, but after reading this thread over the past few days and the article about how challenging it is becoming to get a good pharmacy job, I cannot express how miserable I'm starting to feel. I just finished my P1 year and will embark on my second year in August. Prior to starting pharmacy school, I had been interested in the profession for nearly six years, since 2003 (back in my high school days), because of the great opportunities, flexibility, how easy it is to find a job, my interest in the sciences, and the high salary. I performed extensive research for years and read many resources such as the Bureau of Labor Statistics/Occupational Outlook Handbook and a variety of articles stating the high demand for pharmacists and the shortage. Further, for quite a few years, statisticians and others have predicted that the demand and shortage of pharmacists will not be met/fulfilled for years to come.

All of a sudden, for the first time, I encounter a thread like this and the article on SDN about how much more challenging it is to find a good job in our recession and I cannot help but feel I have made the wrong decision to pursue this field. Don't mistaken me for greedy, but ANYONE pursuing this profession, whether they'll admit it or not, is partially doing it for financial reasons in addition to having a genuine interest in the profession. It is a shock to read that who knows, in 3 or 4 years when I'm finished, salaries for pharmacists may be cut drastically...wow. I will owe approximately $130,000-150,000 and it is a scary thought that I may be making a mere $65,000-70,000 a year. Financially, if this is the case, then we're all screwed. Why would you want to invest 8 years of education for a mediocre $65,000. We will all be Doctors of Pharmacy and should receive pay commesurate with that "title/degree" and educational investment. Certainly, if salaries decrease by that much or even $20,000, the number of pharmacy applicants will decrease. Considering the investments, I understandably expect to make a minimum of $100,000 when I get out.

Additionally, what about ease of attaining a position? For years, it's been well documented how easy it is for pharmacists to just move from one position to another. I'm pursuing a PharmD, investing so much time, etc.. only to have to bust my balls pursuing employment? If I have a PharmD, I expect employers to be after me. All of this is a load of crap. (. To hell with all the stupid diploma mill pharmacy schools opening up. You know what? No wonder pharmacy doesn't attain the respect and merit it deserves. At this rate, the PharmD will be viewed as a joke. Why go through 4 years of college and 4 years of pharmacy school (same as someone pursuing an MD) to make a crappy salary in the end and have a rough time finding employment...newly minted MDs never have to deal with this. At the same time, the link to an article someone else posted differs greatly from all the doom in this thread...i don't know what to believe. All I hope is that all this sacrifice pays off but who knows- maybe we'll be making $45-50,000 and have to complete a residency to get that position. lol...so many requirements, demands, etc... for pharmacists and prospects aren't looking that great.

By the way, I apologize...Please excuse my rant, pessimism, and perhaps incoherence- I am actually very worried right now. Thanks for reading and cheers to the downfall of the profession. Get ready to work like a slave to pay off your student loans and put bread on the table. Apparently, pharmacy was just too good to be true...the era of high salaries, ease of finding employment, flexibility, sign on bonuses, etc... will likely end in the next 3 or 4 years. How fortunate recent graduates are. We're all doomed. Any of you pre-pharmacy students, reconsider your decision. These are some bad times in the US and everything will just fall apart.

 

[confettiflyer]

Any profession, be it medicine, pharmacy, law, janitorial work, etc... you HAVE to adapt to survive. Employers, by and large, are not going to chase you anymore. What may be the saving grace of pharmacy is the fact that some of us won't know how/won't be willing to be flexible...giving those of us that put forth the effort better opportunities and and a chance to thrive.

Teachers... they get educated up to the MA/MS level and deal with bitchy ass kids all day, their starting pay is PEANUTS. By denying this will ever happen to pharmacists is naive. "Oh oh oh...but pharmacists are in health care and are always in demand." Who cares? Stranger things have happened. I'll let you draw the comparisons between elementary school teachers and pharmacists, there are a LOT.

Like I said before, those statistics and studies projecting the mythical, oft never questioned pharmacy shortage, a) don't take into account geography and b) lag behind reality. When was the last time you read an in-depth study that was published the same year it was conducted? Those are exceedingly rare.

This is why I make the case that anecdotal evidence is ahead of the curve, especially in terms of corporate entities (like CVS, Wags, etc...). These companies keep HR info private for reasons I won't go into here, so it's difficult to study...any figures that ARE released are for the benefit of the company, and that usually involves painting a dire situation to drum up RPh supply. Any school dean or corporate head would be an IDIOT if they argue otherwise...it's against their fiduciary responsibility to the organizations they represent (company and school, respectively, not your well being...surprise surprise).

I saw this in 2006 when the market turned in real estate (YES i'm bringing up RE because it's like my biatch). If you read around, people say the market peaked in '07 with defaults precipitating the Bear Stearns bk and subsequent economic freefall in '08. Not true. If you asked the guys on the ground in late-'06, things were starting to thin...it was time to jump ship. No economic study or report rang the alarms. Hell, we didn't get the official word we were in a recession until MONTHS later, but anyone "on the street" could have you told you that.

With that said, put those studies away and pay attention when you're at your IPPE sites/work or keep an ear out for changes in, for example, how grad interns are doing between May and August (in terms of sign on bonuses, how many weren't retained, how long they're floating, etc...). This way, you can be smart and position yourself to be competitive when it's your turn. We went from having open residency positions FIVE years ago to 200+ people left out in the cold in March, show me the study that addresses THAT.

For those that aren't in school now (class of 2014+), know this...the field you are applying into is NOT the field it was in 2004. Ten years is an ETERNITY in most any field. If you think you're up for the challenge, welcome aboard.

Bottom line again: Be prepared to work your ASS OFF, no one (save for the armed services or pharmacies in the buttcrack of nowhere) will come chasing after you. Hell, even the scholarships for the navy and AF are constantly full.

You're probably wondering why I'm still here, why I didn't just jump ship last year while I had the chance...well, pharmacy is still a good field and the basics are here for growth. RE/finance was WAY too cyclical for me, at least with pharm there's an inherent self-correction factor that comes with requiring essentially 8 years of school (4+4).

I'm also kind of a sneaky fellow who can game the system to his/her advantage, so I think I'm good in figuring out how to succeed in this field full of students who have no concept of how the real world works and have just been in school all their lives Sorry if that's you.



and goddamn i write a lot about this subject, cookie for you if you actually read this shiet

 

[koercive]

I was brought back to reality with the last 2 posts. I posted earlier that health care will always be in demand, but I know that things won't be as bright as pharmacists as it was several years ago. I guess I may have been naively optimistic to back up all the work and commitment it has taken me to get into pharmacy school.

As you probably did confetti, I have seen the effects of personal fiscal irresponsibility in the RE world (from people who screwed themselves beyond belief). I learned a lot from these other people's mistakes, but I am slowly become afraid of my commitment to begin pharmacy school and take on these huge loans. The question that pops into my mind is if this in fact a good decision/good investment. I know that the payout is more than a fiscal one (enjoying your job), but having money problems do lead to many of life's woes. I hope that our decisions to pursue pharmacy will not become a financial mishap for all of us who are getting into pharmacy now. I seek a pharmacy career neither in clinical nor a retail setting, so I am also hoping that I am not affected as much.

These diploma mills do scare me, and I think these schools may eventually lead to hurting not only the students that go to these schools but pharmacists everywhere.

 

[confettiflyer]

Well, look at it this way...I'm a pessimist and knew all this before I got into school, yet I still dove in. I'm not advocating people just avoid pharmacy altogether...just consider your tolerance for risk and your flexibility. People who should avoid the field are people who think it'll be static and who think the gravy train will keep on chugging the way it has been.

If one was looking purely at a supply/demand in the field and salary (in health care), I'd push them to dentistry and nursing. Both have (current) established shortages and skills that can't exactly be outsourced or manipulated by law. Dental plans don't have options like PBM's in steering pt's to mail order, etc..

But anyway, I digress...I listed my hypothesis above about where salaries are going. Even a 20% reduction in a $120k salary nets you $96k. I'll take $96k steady thank-you-very-much, still makes my investment worth it. The basics are there, the fat is gone...pharmacists DO provide value and save money, you just need to prove it. koercive, sounds like you'd know what to do in a down market, don't let the lack of gravy deter you.

I had friends in equities make $10k one month, but not break over their min. incentive of $2k the next month. That's fun when you're 22 where you can eat ramen & egg until your next payday, but not when you'll be entering your 30's and will be the primary breadwinner of the family.

But who knows, there could be a silent second waiting to implode the whole profession, or a dark horse looming that would cause demand for RPh services to skyrocket. We'll see.

 

[DoctorRx1986]

The decision to continue in your pursuit of the pharmacy profession is a personal one that requires serious consideration at this point. Even research and much thought doesn't always enable you to make the right decision/choice. Take it from me. I just finished my first year of pharmacy school and really wish I could go back in time and relinquish my offer of acceptance to someone else. I really believe I've made a dire mistake. I might as well start getting ready to eat potatoes for the rest of my life because I'm $30,000 in debt and still have 3 years to go. Come graduation, I will owe over $100 k and considering the uncertainty of this profession, I don't think it's worth amassing so much debt to make $60-65 a year in the next few years. You will hate your life, no matter how much you like pharmacy, if all you do is work to pay off those god-forsaken loans and have little disposable income to buy your dream home, finance a car, or whatever toy you'd like to purchase as a reward for all your years of sweat, blood, and tears. Who knows, though? Perhaps salaries will drop to $90,000-95,000 and that is perfectly fine...that IS a high salary and should be enough to pay off student loans comfortably. But $65 k? That would be a joke and make the PharmD itself the ***** of all jokes. Who goes to a PROFESSIONAL SCHOOL for FOUR (4) years to end up making less than $90,000 a year? It's not sensible at all.

Why do pharmacists have to run the chance of getting stuck with a piece of crap salary after going through 4 rigorous years of professional education just like dentists, physicians, or optometrists? You don't see any of these individuals making $65 k a year; why? because it wouldn't pay off to enter the profession. I've worked in a pharmacy before and enjoy the work, but I'm not going to sacrifice myself and make pennies after driving myself mad through 4 years of hell to make a salary a person with a 2 year degree can make when i graduate. LOL. One might as well apply to ITT TECH or Institute or whatever those programs are called and get out in 2 years and make the same low/mediocre salary pharmacists were making a decade ago. Why is it that we're seeing this **** happen in pharmacy? Yet this would NEVER happen in medicine. You will NEVER see a physician make $70 k even with a hypothetical surplus or saturation or whatnot. I am so disillusioned with my entire future at this point. The pharmacy "profession", if it can even be called a "profession", really has no one to lobby for it and protect the interests of its members; no wonder this BS is happening with all the schools opening up like factories all over the country.

Conversely, the medical profession has the AMA (American Medical Association) so as to safeguard the interests and rights of its member physicians. Pharmacy is in dire need of reform; Honestly, excuse my pessimism, but pharmacy WILL NEVER really garner the respect, merit, and value it deserves. "Ah, he's just a pharmacist...look, she had a 2.5 GPA and got into pharmacy school and makes $65,000 in the year 2013." Instead of progressing, this profession is regressing, if you will, into a more primitive state equivalent to that of the 1990s. The only difference is that the profession has taken a clinical role now.

You, prepharmers, for the love of God, please consider what you're getting yourselves into. If thinks go sour as they are already, I'm planning on working like a slave when i graduate and pay off my loans before leaving the profession. Trust me...no matter how much you may like pharmacology- and don't get me wrong, i LOVE pharmacology and so far have aced the first 2 semesters of it in pharmacy school- when money's tight, you won't be alright; this is a reality. It's too late for me. I'm already $30 k in the hole. Spare yourselves of my fate. I have looked into this "job" since 2003 and it really offered a bright future at the time and prospects were not only "good"...THEY WERE EXCELLENT! THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASEA. Go to medical school if you can handle blood and guts. I'd do that because I also love medicine. As a physician, you will NEVER have to worry about a huge paycut after going through 4 years of professional education. Medicine is truly a profession ; pharmacy, as much as I hate to say it, is a mere job at this point and it's only going to get worse; start looking at the new "Dodge" car models or Kia and get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life. I'M DOOMED, but you guys are not. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I was brought back to reality with the last 2 posts. I posted earlier that health care will always be in demand, but I know that things won't be as bright as pharmacists as it was several years ago. I guess I may have been naively optimistic to back up all the work and commitment it has taken me to get into pharmacy school.

As you probably did confetti, I have seen the effects of personal fiscal irresponsibility in the RE world (from people who screwed themselves beyond belief). I learned a lot from these other people's mistakes, but I am slowly become afraid of my commitment to begin pharmacy school and take on these huge loans. The question that pops into my mind is if this in fact a good decision/good investment. I know that the payout is more than a fiscal one (enjoying your job), but having money problems do lead to many of life's woes. I hope that our decisions to pursue pharmacy will not become a financial mishap for all of us who are getting into pharmacy now. I seek a pharmacy career neither in clinical nor a retail setting, so I am also hoping that I am not affected as much.

These diploma mills do scare me, and I think these schools may eventually lead to hurting not only the students that go to these schools but pharmacists everywhere.

 

[Argentium]

Lawyers and PsychD's spend about as much time in school as we do (6-8 yrs) and oftentimes make less than 65k. As long as you're good at what you do, I don't see why you guys are so worried - there is always a very high demand for talent. This will become especially true when hospitals and industry realize that diploma mills are just that, diploma mills. (Notice I left out retail)

 

[confettiflyer]

Physicians are having their own issues...it's this midlevel creep that's been happening over the past decade that's threatening to erode salaries. Sure, you will never be able to replace surgeons/specialists this way, but for your rank and file family practitioners and internal medicine physicians, issues do exist. Salaries HAVE dropped precipitously from the 70's and 80's (check the allopathic subforum for this discussion).

Add in increased time processing claims, fighting insurance companies, and getting decreased reimbursements along the way....it'll be tough eking out a living. Actually, no, don't get me wrong...I'm not suggesting you're gonna starve as a family prac MD, I'm just saying it'll require more work for less pay than before.

So in a way, pharmacy isn't that special, everyone is having issues. My advice to doctorrx1986 is to make yourself valuable and stay the heck out of retail.

 

[Carboxide]

The only reason why I'm concerned about the money AT ALL is because I'm going to be taking out at least 80k in loans.

If pharmacy school was free, I wouldn't care if I made 40k a year.

 

[Passion4Sci]

The loan issue is a grave one, and one I've mentioned a lot here in the past.

Some Pharmacy schools, like some Psychology doctorate programs, are very inexpensive and make for a very good living and would make for a very good living even on $65,000 a year. However, there are a lot of schools out to make money (UoP comes to mind, almost 60 grand a year to go) and folks who go to these schools and who graduate into a market paying 60-65 a year with 150-250k in debt will be taking a vow of poverty.

Who knows, salaries for RPhs mind not dip to the $65k region so soon as Confetti doesn't think they will, and I think he's much more financially centered than I am (Having worked in RE for so long, he's a crack shot on economic stuff) so I have to defer there.

But the potential is present for serious harm to future PharmD (Including myself) in terms of loan amounts.

 

[OTFuturePharmD]

Confettiflyer, I guess I get a cookie then. I read the whole thing. I agree with you. I think the changing economy is making everything competitive for jobs. I even see it in medicine. Many of the students are competing for certain specialties. Even in nursing there is a lot of competition. I have a friend who is a nurse trying to get a job and she told me for every position there is 20 or more nurses competing. She told me there is no such thing as a nursing shortage. Every field has it's challenges today. All companies/entities are working to do more with less. If one stays competitive and does things to make themselves stand out from everyone else then things will be fine. I'm still doing this profession because I love it.

 

[confettiflyer]

I have a friend who is a nurse trying to get a job and she told me for every position there is 20 or more nurses competing. She told me there is no such thing as a nursing shortage. Every field has it's challenges today. All companies/entities are working to do more with less. If one stays competitive and does things to make themselves stand out from everyone else then things will be fine. I'm still doing this profession because I love it.

What state are you in? Hospitals have nursing shortages but don't necessarily have the budget to hire. For CA, they started phasing in 1:3 ratios for step down and 1:4 for telemetry...quite generous, that alone sparked a quasi-shortage in the state.

You're right, I should watch my mouth...haha, next time I say there's a "shortage" I should put on a disclaimer for any profession.

Who knows, salaries for RPhs mind not dip to the $65k region so soon as Confetti doesn't think they will, and I think he's much more financially centered than I am (Having worked in RE for so long, he's a crack shot on economic stuff) so I have to defer there.

Haha, I'm just a crack shot in RE/finance....whether or not that translates over to the intricacies of the pharmacy labor market, i'll log back in and check this post in 5-10 years and let you know. hahaha

 

[thephoenician88]

You, prepharmers, for the love of God, please consider what you're getting yourselves into. If thinks go sour as they are already, I'm planning on working like a slave when i graduate and pay off my loans before leaving the profession. Trust me...no matter how much you may like pharmacology- and don't get me wrong, i LOVE pharmacology and so far have aced the first 2 semesters of it in pharmacy school- when money's tight, you won't be alright; this is a reality. It's too late for me. I'm already $30 k in the hole. Spare yourselves of my fate. I have looked into this "job" since 2003 and it really offered a bright future at the time and prospects were not only "good"...THEY WERE EXCELLENT! THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASEA. Go to medical school if you can handle blood and guts. I'd do that because I also love medicine. As a physician, you will NEVER have to worry about a huge paycut after going through 4 years of professional education. Medicine is truly a profession ; pharmacy, as much as I hate to say it, is a mere job at this point and it's only going to get worse; start looking at the new "Dodge" car models or Kia and get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life. I'M DOOMED, but you guys are not. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

pharmacy isn't a profession, just a job? what? If you're this worried about the prospects of finding a job to make a lot of money, you still have time to jump off the bandwagon.

 

[Pharmacy Kid]

With that said, put those studies away and pay attention when you're at your IPPE sites/work or keep an ear out for changes in, for example, how grad interns are doing between May and August (in terms of sign on bonuses, how many weren't retained, how long they're floating, etc...). This way, you can be smart and position yourself to be competitive when it's your turn. We went from having open residency positions FIVE years ago to 200+ people left out in the cold in March, show me the study that addresses THAT.

For those that aren't in school now (class of 2014+), know this...the field you are applying into is NOT the field it was in 2004. Ten years is an ETERNITY in most any field. If you think you're up for the challenge, welcome aboard.

This is some of the best advice I've read lately. When you're on your community/hospital IPPE's, talk to the pharmacy manager or DOP. They'll tell you what is really going on vs what the latest BLS stats are. At my hospital IPPE, the DOP told me a lot of places are in a hiring freeze and admin is hiring only the people they really need.

 

[joedrt9]

It's too late for me. I'm already $30 k in the hole. Spare yourselves of my fate. I have looked into this "job" since 2003 and it really offered a bright future at the time and prospects were not only "good"...THEY WERE EXCELLENT! THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASEA. Go to medical school if you can handle blood and guts. I'd do that because I also love medicine. As a physician, you will NEVER have to worry about a huge paycut after going through 4 years of professional education. Medicine is truly a profession ; pharmacy, as much as I hate to say it, is a mere job at this point and it's only going to get worse; start looking at the new "Dodge" car models or Kia and get ready to eat potatoes and green beans the rest of your life. I'M DOOMED, but you guys are not. YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED.

I know it's probably not what you want to hear because you feel as if you're between a rock and a hard place (it sounds like you're doing some uber venting), but it's not too late to back out, IMO. $30k is the price of a new car.

As a pharmacist, after your loan payment and Uncle Sam's part, I assume you would still clear enough money to live an "above average" life style. You may not have 3 $70k+ cars and a $600k+ home like you planned, but you'd still be comfy and have a job you like. That's more than many people can say (even with equal amounts of education).

 

[ChaiTea]

I was accepted into a school of pharmacy for the fall of 2009.

The main article on the SDN's homepage and these last few threads on supply vs. demand and pharmacists salaries dropping like dead flies is indeed worrying. People must take into account a few things though:

1) Every economy goes through cycles of booms, bubbles and busts. Right now the economy is in its bust stage, it will gradually boom again than bubble then bust....as long as it's not a depression, then pharmacists will be fine........

2) There has to be a cap on the amount of pharmacy schools opening every year. In fact, they should stop opening schools altogether, the ones we have now are enough (more than enough) to meet supply and demand.

3) The baby-boomers are retiring or are getting ready to retire. This will be a huge section of the population, we will be in demand.

4) While in school, NETWORK for God's sake. Networking may just land you that $120K job after all.

5) With the pharm.d. degree there's room for mobility in the science/business world. Stand out from the rest with skills,talents and knowledge that most pharm students may not have. Who knows, one could become an executive in the pharmacy field ($500k+ salary, hey it could be done)

6) EVERY JOB HAS IT OWN ISSUES WITH WORKLOAD & SALARY, SO PEOPLE CHILL OUT!

After extensive research, I decided to pursue pharmacy instead of nursing, medical school & law. It's just me. But I don't think pharmacists will be making 40K anytime soon (or ever).

If this is your fear, then by all means pursue something else. But I thought I would put it out there that pharmacy isn't heading to h - e - l - l anytime in the forseeable future.

Venti Chai Tea Latte (SHAKEN BUT NOT STIRRED)

 

[quitejaded]

Jack, there will always be a need for pharmacists. I heard that now is a great time to get the degree. No worries if one area is saturated. There is a WHOLE WORLD that is in need of pharmacists. I see no sweat.

 

[SHC1984]

Lawyers and PsychD's spend about as much time in school as we do (6-8 yrs) and oftentimes make less than 65k. As long as you're good at what you do, I don't see why you guys are so worried - there is always a very high demand for talent. This will become especially true when hospitals and industry realize that diploma mills are just that, diploma mills. (Notice I left out retail)

yeah, but they don't owe 100K in student debt either.

 

[confettiflyer]

Jack, there will always be a need for pharmacists. I heard that now is a great time to get the degree. No worries if one area is saturated. There is a WHOLE WORLD that is in need of pharmacists. I see no sweat.

You should work in real estate. Prices always go up! Now's a great time to buy!
It's a "good time to get a degree" because a fin-aid check beats unemployment every time. It's nice being able to ride out the job market for 4yrs while swaths of my friends are unemployed/moving back home.

as for world...not quite how it works. ever hang out in mexico?

I think my favorite colleagues are the pie-in-the-sky ones that will go forward and do nothing expecting buckets of gravy to land at their feet months before graduation...fantastic for my job prospects

 

[SHC1984]

The reason why pharmacists have to deal with this surplus crap and other professions do NOT is b/c there is already a huge surplus of pharmacy schools. Just compare the number of dental schools to pharmacy schools and you will know that there is a huge surplus there. Even though dentistry isn't for me I will have to admit that the ADEA did a great job in regulating and making it very hard to open up new dental schools. There are ~52 dental schools in the USA. If only pharmacy schools can learn from dental schools, but I guess they are just don't have as much common sense...

 

[confettiflyer]

yeah, but they don't owe 100K in student debt either.

are you kidding me, JD degrees will set you back as much as a pharm degree (depending on the school) AND they're only in school for 3 years.

lawyers are struggling...that degree bubble popped YEARS ago, that provides great lessons for the pharm degree and possibly where it could go.

 

[gotmilklol]

i don't understand some things...
If the senior pharmacists are going to retire, wouldn't there be more jobs available after...
And how do YOU guys know the future?
I understand theres a recession, but who said there's going to be salary cuts (maybe retail, but like to $90,000 - $95,000)

 

[SHC1984]

i don't understand some things...
If the senior pharmacists are going to retire, wouldn't there be more jobs available after...
And how do YOU guys know the future?
I understand theres a recession, but who said there's going to be salary cuts (maybe retail, but like to $90,000 - $95,000)

its called supply and demand. No one knows the future, but the FACT is there are waaaaaaay too many pharmacy schools out there...I think 50 schools is a good number, but unfortunatly there is like three times that amount. If there is too many graduates (supply is too high) demand will go down (which equals decrease in salary).

 

[Passion4Sci]

are you kidding me, JD degrees will set you back as much as a pharm degree (depending on the school) AND they're only in school for 3 years.

lawyers are struggling...that degree bubble popped YEARS ago, that provides great lessons for the pharm degree and possibly where it could go.

I drew this analogy from my expertise in Psychology doctorate degrees but you shot me down with a really long post about how it won't be the same, yet here you draw essentially the same analogy, just using JD instead of the PhD.

You hurt my feelings, man!

 

[confettiflyer]

I drew this analogy from my expertise in Psychology doctorate degrees but you shot me down with a really long post about how it won't be the same, yet here you draw essentially the same analogy, just using JD instead of the PhD.

You hurt my feelings, man!

lol my bad.....i never said predicting the future was an exact and merciful science, hahaha. sometimes i just go into a trance and write.

i don't understand some things...
If the senior pharmacists are going to retire, wouldn't there be more jobs available after...
And how do YOU guys know the future?
I understand theres a recession, but who said there's going to be salary cuts (maybe retail, but like to $90,000 - $95,000)

didn't you read any of my posts? it's like you just wandered in here and started asking questions. actually...nah go ahead and be one of the naive/pie in the sky pharm students i talk about, makes my life a bit easier

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

confettiflyer, a great pleasure in reading your posts

worse comes to worse, one can always work as a pharmacy technician...

 

[confettiflyer]

confettiflyer, a great pleasure in reading your posts

worse comes to worse, one can always work as a pharmacy technician...

haha, glad to know i have "fans." Sadly, I think I'm either falling on deaf ears, or preaching to the choir (and nothing in between). How's the job hunt outside of NJ going? I found some 7 on 7 off overnights and 4-10's paying $68/hr if you want to venture out west and live near farms in CA. Don't know their requirements/preferences though. Taxes can't be much worse than what you're paying now, and at least the weather's nicer.

and pharm techs are getting the shaft too...but it's cheaper for retail to max out their tech ratios, plus it's like slave labor, so i guess you'd have an easier time finding work.

But I guess if you're making $54/hr as a pharmacist and they cut you down to 32 hours/week from 40, at least you can still probably make your mortgage/put food on the table (assuming you're not over leveraged--bad assumption nowadays, but that'll change over the next decade). If you're a tech making $12/hr and you get a similar cut, better start stocking up on ramen.

 

[SHC1984]

haha, glad to know i have "fans." Sadly, I think I'm either falling on deaf ears, or preaching to the choir (and nothing in between). How's the job hunt outside of NJ going? I found some 7 on 7 off overnights and 4-10's paying $68/hr if you want to venture out west and live near farms in CA. Don't know their requirements/preferences though. Taxes can't be much worse than what you're paying now, and at least the weather's nicer.

and pharm techs are getting the shaft too...but it's cheaper for retail to max out their tech ratios, plus it's like slave labor, so i guess you'd have an easier time finding work.

But I guess if you're making $54/hr as a pharmacist and they cut you down to 32 hours/week from 40, at least you can still probably make your mortgage/put food on the table (assuming you're not over leveraged--bad assumption nowadays, but that'll change over the next decade). If you're a tech making $12/hr and you get a similar cut, better start stocking up on ramen.

Also the best way to get the job you want after graduation would be to work for the company you are interested in during school. I have an interview coming up to work at Target pharmacy and I am looking into mail order pharmacies as well.

Do you think that will increase my chances of getting a spot AFTER graduation as oppose to someone that never worked for the company before?? I would think so but I could be wrong I guess.

 

[glory4england]

haha, glad to know i have "fans." Sadly, I think I'm either falling on deaf ears, or preaching to the choir (and nothing in between). How's the job hunt outside of NJ going? I found some 7 on 7 off overnights and 4-10's paying $68/hr if you want to venture out west and live near farms in CA. Don't know their requirements/preferences though. Taxes can't be much worse than what you're paying now, and at least the weather's nicer.

and pharm techs are getting the shaft too...but it's cheaper for retail to max out their tech ratios, plus it's like slave labor, so i guess you'd have an easier time finding work.

But I guess if you're making $54/hr as a pharmacist and they cut you down to 32 hours/week from 40, at least you can still probably make your mortgage/put food on the table (assuming you're not over leveraged--bad assumption nowadays, but that'll change over the next decade). If you're a tech making $12/hr and you get a similar cut, better start stocking up on ramen.

I also enjoy reading your post, but I think that you're pretty much preaching to the choir here ^^ Since your pretty knowledgeable with the market (better than I am ^^), do you think the market will be saturated to the point that pharmacists won't be able to find a job, or that it will only be saturated in the desirable area and Alaska and West Texas will still have positions available? I'm entering class this fall and wanting to do residencies so it will be a while before I fully graduated and seeing things the way they are now, I don't even want to imagine how the market is going to look in 6 years. On the bright side, I'm going to a public school so my debt won't be that much compare to those in private schools, I don't have a family and kids to take care, and I really enjoy eating ramens and rice. ^^

 

[confettiflyer]

I also enjoy reading your post, but I think that you're pretty much preaching to the choir here ^^ Since your pretty knowledgeable with the market (better than I am ^^), do you think the market will be saturated to the point that pharmacists won't be able to find a job, or that it will only be saturated in the desirable area and Alaska and West Texas will still have positions available? I'm entering class this fall and wanting to do residencies so it will be a while before I fully graduated and seeing things the way they are now, I don't even want to imagine how the market is going to look in 6 years. On the bright side, I'm going to a public school so my debt won't be that much compare to those in private schools, I don't have a family and kids to take care, and I really enjoy eating ramens and rice. ^^

I really don't know the West Texas or Alaska market, but if you can classify them as rural, I really don't think there will be issues of saturation. This is true of many professions, these areas have difficulty attracting people in general.

The great thing going for you is the public school tuition, less debt always puts people in a good position.

Do you think that will increase my chances of getting a spot AFTER graduation as oppose to someone that never worked for the company before?? I would think so but I could be wrong I guess.

Absolutely. Again, this is essentially true of any company. If you can have a current employee vouch for you, that's usually how most people get their jobs (referral), so that's good. If you worked for the company and didn't screw it up, even better...not only can someone vouch for you, they can vouch for you within that company's culture/setting.

The problem is...if a company isn't hiring, they're not going to hire. What I predict is if we get to that max point of saturation in an area, you'll get referred to a different geographic area and can get hired there. This is what I faced being a current student last month looking for additional hours in so-cal, I was referred out of the area (I inquired like I was a current intern so they didn't know I already was guaranteed work).

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

haha, glad to know i have "fans." Sadly, I think I'm either falling on deaf ears, or preaching to the choir (and nothing in between). How's the job hunt outside of NJ going? I found some 7 on 7 off overnights and 4-10's paying $68/hr if you want to venture out west and live near farms in CA. Don't know their requirements/preferences though. Taxes can't be much worse than what you're paying now, and at least the weather's nicer.

and pharm techs are getting the shaft too...but it's cheaper for retail to max out their tech ratios, plus it's like slave labor, so i guess you'd have an easier time finding work.

But I guess if you're making $54/hr as a pharmacist and they cut you down to 32 hours/week from 40, at least you can still probably make your mortgage/put food on the table (assuming you're not over leveraged--bad assumption nowadays, but that'll change over the next decade). If you're a tech making $12/hr and you get a similar cut, better start stocking up on ramen.

currently i am doing 2nd shift at an LTC in NJ but as far as I know there are many rutgers grads this year that are still in the process of looking for a job. I guess I'm pretty fortunate that I graduated in 08. It is tough looking for jobs in other states since you would have to be licensed in order to work there, so I am in the process of applying for licensure in a few states of my choosing (for one, I will be studying for the CPJE). My plan right now is to get out of the tri-state area by May 2010 because it will not be pretty once the 2010 grads roll out...

how are things in illedelphia? my gf and i have been frequenting phileo yogurt the past few weeks, yeah we just caught on the whole self serve frozen yogurt craze...

 

[terse]

Any profession, be it medicine, pharmacy, law, janitorial work, etc... you HAVE to adapt to survive. Employers, by and large, are not going to chase you anymore. What may be the saving grace of pharmacy is the fact that some of us won't know how/won't be willing to be flexible...giving those of us that put forth the effort better opportunities and and a chance to thrive.

Teachers... they get educated up to the MA/MS level and deal with bitchy ass kids all day, their starting pay is PEANUTS. By denying this will ever happen to pharmacists is naive. "Oh oh oh...but pharmacists are in health care and are always in demand." Who cares? Stranger things have happened. I'll let you draw the comparisons between elementary school teachers and pharmacists, there are a LOT.

Like I said before, those statistics and studies projecting the mythical, oft never questioned pharmacy shortage, a) don't take into account geography and b) lag behind reality. When was the last time you read an in-depth study that was published the same year it was conducted? Those are exceedingly rare.

This is why I make the case that anecdotal evidence is ahead of the curve, especially in terms of corporate entities (like CVS, Wags, etc...). These companies keep HR info private for reasons I won't go into here, so it's difficult to study...any figures that ARE released are for the benefit of the company, and that usually involves painting a dire situation to drum up RPh supply. Any school dean or corporate head would be an IDIOT if they argue otherwise...it's against their fiduciary responsibility to the organizations they represent (company and school, respectively, not your well being...surprise surprise).

I saw this in 2006 when the market turned in real estate (YES i'm bringing up RE because it's like my biatch). If you read around, people say the market peaked in '07 with defaults precipitating the Bear Stearns bk and subsequent economic freefall in '08. Not true. If you asked the guys on the ground in late-'06, things were starting to thin...it was time to jump ship. No economic study or report rang the alarms. Hell, we didn't get the official word we were in a recession until MONTHS later, but anyone "on the street" could have you told you that.

With that said, put those studies away and pay attention when you're at your IPPE sites/work or keep an ear out for changes in, for example, how grad interns are doing between May and August (in terms of sign on bonuses, how many weren't retained, how long they're floating, etc...). This way, you can be smart and position yourself to be competitive when it's your turn. We went from having open residency positions FIVE years ago to 200+ people left out in the cold in March, show me the study that addresses THAT.

For those that aren't in school now (class of 2014+), know this...the field you are applying into is NOT the field it was in 2004. Ten years is an ETERNITY in most any field. If you think you're up for the challenge, welcome aboard.

Bottom line again: Be prepared to work your ASS OFF, no one (save for the armed services or pharmacies in the buttcrack of nowhere) will come chasing after you. Hell, even the scholarships for the navy and AF are constantly full.

You're probably wondering why I'm still here, why I didn't just jump ship last year while I had the chance...well, pharmacy is still a good field and the basics are here for growth. RE/finance was WAY too cyclical for me, at least with pharm there's an inherent self-correction factor that comes with requiring essentially 8 years of school (4+4).

I'm also kind of a sneaky fellow who can game the system to his/her advantage, so I think I'm good in figuring out how to succeed in this field full of students who have no concept of how the real world works and have just been in school all their lives Sorry if that's you.



and goddamn i write a lot about this subject, cookie for you if you actually read this shiet

confetti, you are a smart man. ...another "fan" here.
i worked in the finance field for a bit before jumping on the pharmacy bandwagon (P2 this fall) so i've been doing this cost/benefit analaysis well before applying to pharm schools.

i'm assuming you go to USC, so i know the 180-250k debt has you worried as well. regarding the "students who have no concept of how the real world works and have just been in school all their lives".... i'm scared for them!

 

[atticus27]

....you'll get referred to a different geographic area and can get hired there......

Watch out South Dakota, Nebraska, and Idaho! Here we come!

 

[confettiflyer]

how are things in illedelphia? my gf and i have been frequenting phileo yogurt the past few weeks, yeah we just caught on the whole self serve frozen yogurt craze...

man...behind the times, self serve yogurt has come and gone as a fad in LA. hahah...i haven't been to phileo, i usually just get capo giro (gelato) which is down the street from me.

but when i get froyo, i'll usually get plain tart with mochi and captain crunch cereal. if phileo doesn't have those toppings, chaulk up another reason why philly is lame-o =(

 

[type b pharmD]

man...behind the times, self serve yogurt has come and gone as a fad in LA. hahah...i haven't been to phileo, i usually just get capo giro (gelato) which is down the street from me.

but when i get froyo, i'll usually get plain tart with mochi and captain crunch cereal. if phileo doesn't have those toppings, chaulk up another reason why philly is lame-o =(

man, people on the coasts are crazy! yogurt fads?? captain crunch?? what is happening out there?

 

[grizzlesgrizzlies]

man...behind the times, self serve yogurt has come and gone as a fad in LA. hahah...i haven't been to phileo, i usually just get capo giro (gelato) which is down the street from me.

but when i get froyo, i'll usually get plain tart with mochi and captain crunch cereal. if phileo doesn't have those toppings, chaulk up another reason why philly is lame-o =(

you should check that place out, and yes they do have those toppings that u are looking for...

man u californians are spoiled... famima was the coolest thing when we visited the 3rd street promenade last yr...

 

[confettiflyer]

man, people on the coasts are crazy! yogurt fads?? captain crunch?? what is happening out there?

clearly everything that is not happening in fly-over country

The froyo thing got started in korea in '05-ish (pingsoo, a bit different than what you'd get stateside) and made its way to the states.

you should check that place out, and yes they do have those toppings that u are looking for...

man u californians are spoiled... famima was the coolest thing when we visited the 3rd street promenade last yr...

Oooh, I'll give it a whirl, haven't had froyo in a while. The best places are the ones with signs in engrish. know any good korean bbq places around here?

after eating asian based froyo and italian gelato, i can never eat "regular" ice cream again--exception my favorite ice cream shop in SF (Mitchell's), granted I get macapuno, ube, and mango...not exactly traditional "american" flavors.

as for famima, they've been closing a lot of locations (3rd street is still open i believe). i miss mini stop in japan...best 100-yen cheapo yogurt i've ever had, speaking of froyo.

 

[busyizzy]

The froyo thing got started in korea in '05-ish (pingsoo, a bit different than what you'd get stateside) and made its way to the states.

Really? That's how it started? But bingsoo is NOTHING like froyo ... it's shaved ice with stuff on top of it. I love bingsoo and froyo, but the two are not similar at all ....

 

[confettiflyer]

Really? That's how it started? But bingsoo is NOTHING like froyo ... it's shaved ice with stuff on top of it. I love bingsoo and froyo, but the two are not similar at all ....

i know...the red bean goes on bottom with all that other stuff, that's not really a huge hit out here in the states. They just kind of imported the "idea" more than the actual product...kind of like how Italian food in the US bears minimal resemblance to what you'd actually eat if you were in Italy.

 

[OTFuturePharmD]

What state are you in? Hospitals have nursing shortages but don't necessarily have the budget to hire. For CA, they started phasing in 1:3 ratios for step down and 1:4 for telemetry...quite generous, that alone sparked a quasi-shortage in the state.

You're right, I should watch my mouth...haha, next time I say there's a "shortage" I should put on a disclaimer for any profession.

Massachusetts. Of course Mass has been hit hard by the downturn in the economy. All areas are suffering. It shocks me when I drive through towns now and see all of these empty retail buildings. Even in the big malls there is a lot of empty space. There is big fancy mall near me that has put there job fair on hold. We'll see what happens there.

 

[pharmgirl2409]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but don't you think it would be difficult to get pharmacists to take a paycut? and not just a small paycut but from 100,000k/year to 65k/year? I am no expert on the economy or job market, but it just seems more logical that there will be less job openings than a dramatic decrease in pay. Again, correct me if i'm wrong.