Oxbridge/general UK advice?

[coucouloulou]

Hi everyone!

I'm a 3rd year BScH student in biomed science in Canada and I want to go back to Europe for med school (I'm a EU citizen) and I'm good with staying there.

I'd really like to attend med school in the UK and right now I'm considering Oxbridge, KCL and either ICL or Southampton.

For A-levels, I have what's equivalent to A* (I checked on the KCL website) for bio, chem/phys, math, English etc, so I think I'm in pretty good standing for regular entry (A100) programs.

I could also apply for graduate entry (A102/109) and gain 1-2 years but I'm worried about competing with MSc, PhD and people who worked for like 15 years. I'd need a 2:1 degree, which I think is a B+ average (right?). Would an A-/A average be first class honours?
I'm also going to be 18 at that point so I'm not sure unis would like to have me in their accelerated programs?

And is my school list too risky?

Sorry, so many questions... Thanks

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[mdphdNYC]

Hi,
I used to live in the UK and have quite a few friends in medical school there. They say students with degrees may apply A100 and with a degree already you'll definitely be seen as far more qualified than your average new high school grad. Similarly the BMAT will be trivial for you. Of course as I'm sure you're aware there is no "Oxbridge" - you can only put one on UCAS. Southampton is a fine school but given a choice between the two I'd pick Imperial 10 times out of 10, no questions there.
However. The current political situation is extremely fraught, especially regarding the status of EU students. With Brexit happening in 2019 (before you're proposing to start medical school), there are no guarantees that
(1) as an EU citizen you'll be competing for admissions on the same standing with native Brits (pre-Brexit it was already demonstrably harder for EU citizens to get into UK unis, and this when it was literally illegal for them to discriminate). For scale, Oxford only takes 14 "international" students per year (undergrad+grad), and there are rumors that in a "hard Brexit" existing students will be grandfathered in but new students will be treated as international students. Also, if you are not "ordinarily resident" in the EU over the past three years you will be treated as international
(2) you'll be eligible to pay 'home' fees (see above 9000 quid is no joke, but they charge up to 26k to overseas students)
(3) you'll be able to do your foundational years (post-graduation) in the UK. This is the big one as you can do specialty training somewhere else but without completing F1+F2 you can't practice (UK or EU), and the UK system is sufficiently different that I don't think you could do it in another EU country. Under undergraduate entry, this will be 6 years (and a general election...) from now, and who knows what the political situation will be then. You may end up falling through the gaps

If you want to return to Europe I'd recommend going to your country of citizenship for medical school, or if you are afraid your degree will not be internationally competitive, going to med school in Germany or Sweden over the UK at this point.

 

[coucouloulou]

Thank you very much for your reply.
I thought that for medicine I could apply to both Oxford and Cambridge, but I’m leaning more towards Cambridge anyway.
I’m French so going back to medical school there (I was accepted to my first choice and declined my spot) might be impossible, and I’d have to start an 8 year program from scratch...
I’d rather pay home fees but international fees in the UK are still much cheaper than almost any med school so I could manage.
Brexit is putting me in a very rough spot since my odds are decreasing dramatically but are still much higher than in North America... It would make sense for collaboration between universities to stop by the end of the transitional period (Dec 2020)? Universities around the UK don’t seem too happy about the situation so fingers crossed.
How do schools look on reapplicants? Would it be worth the risk to apply now with a much weaker application than what I’d have in a year?
I’ll look into other EU countries in the mean time...
Thanks again!

 

[phdtomduk]

1. You need to find out which schools accept international students. Even though you have EU citizenship, the UK and Ireland use fee status (i.e qualifying for home fees vs international fees), not citizenship status for admissions, so you will be an international student for both admissions and fees purposes for the entirety of your studies. A number of medical schools accept international students, but many do not or have a very limited number of spots so look into this.

2. I wouldn't worry too much about the Brexit thing if you are applying in the next year or so. The UK has a transition plan where all EU citizens can apply for the equivalent to permanent residency if they come to the UK during this transition period, so you should be good. Also, all graduates of UK medical schools are guaranteed a place in the UK foundation programme (i.e UK residency/fellowship scheme) regardless of citizenship.

3. Regarding the competitiveness of the undergrad vs graduate entry programs, you should actually look into how individual schools select/rank applicants. While graduate entry does tend to be more competitive, and there are many applicants with masters and phds, there are also many career changers, people with subpar "high school" grades, and people in situations similar to yours. Schools all use different ranking systems. Some rank solely on admissions tests, some give extra points for graduate degrees/work experience, some are more holistic, etc. Many school's websites are pretty transparent about the process. Since graduate entry are only four years (which would make them cheaper/quicker), it might be worth it to at least put down one/two that you think would be a good match, particularly if you do well on the GAMSAT/UKCAT.

Since this website is mainly geared toward North American students, I'd recommend checking out studentroom, which is sort of the uk equivalent to this site. They might be able to offer some more guidance on school selection.

 

[mdphdNYC]

I don't think it's true that all graduates of UK medical schools are guaranteed an F1 placement. Historically almost all graduates who applied have been placed but within the past 2 years the GMC has explicitly stated that it cannot make this a guarantee into the future. I would not be surprised if the situation changed drastically over the next 6 years despite the transitional period (which is mostly being designed for students on regular 3-4 year courses). Moreover I think a potentially bigger concern to the OP might be that even if they are successful in procuring a placement, the placement may not be a desirable one or one that lends itself easily to continued specialty training

 

[phdtomduk]

I don't think it's true that all graduates of UK medical schools are guaranteed an F1 placement. Historically almost all graduates who applied have been placed but within the past 2 years the GMC has explicitly stated that it cannot make this a guarantee into the future.

As of right now, all graduates of UK medical schools are eligible for the UK foundation programme (at least according to the GMC/UK foundation programme website). I would agree that it's impossible to predict the future and the regulations could change.

However, if you are planning to apply and begin your studies in the next year or two (i.e. arriving in UK before December 2020), I still don't think you have too much to worry about. As an EU national, you would be able to register for settled status or a residency permit, which can be converted to settled status. These would both grant you all the privileges of UK citizens. *note: I'd recommend checking out the UK government's guidance "Status of EU citizens in the UK: what you need to know" if you're looking for info on immigration to the UK for EU citizens

Can't really offer guidance on the outlook for EU citizens arriving in the UK after 2020. Not sure even Theresa May knows all the details at this point.

 

[mdphdNYC]

That's true, but by "eligible" they only mean eligible to apply - on their FAQ they state that "Over the last few years, there have been more fully eligible applicants than vacancies across the UK (oversubscription) at the point of allocation to Units of Application, and this is expected to continue". The current process for deciding is based on a score comprising educational achievements, publications, additional degrees, and the SJT. However this process has been somewhat controversial in the past few years for leaving UK students on the "reserve" list so I wouldn't be surprised if an additional factor were added after 2019 to favor UK nationals

 

[phdtomduk]

That's true, but by "eligible" they only mean eligible to apply - on their FAQ they state that "Over the last few years, there have been more fully eligible applicants than vacancies across the UK (oversubscription) at the point of allocation to Units of Application, and this is expected to continue". The current process for deciding is based on a score comprising educational achievements, publications, additional degrees, and the SJT. However this process has been somewhat controversial in the past few years for leaving UK students on the "reserve" list so I wouldn't be surprised if an additional factor were added after 2019 to favor UK nationals

As long as OP begins their studies before December 2020, they will be considered on par with UK nationals. This might not be true, since the guidance on all of this is a little bit unclear, but my understanding is that settled status basically confers the same rights/status as UK nationals, meaning that EU nationals with this status will be treated the same as UK nationals (kind of like how people with green cards are considered equivalent to US nationals in the US).

To your point about there being more applicants than positions, this is because there are many different groups of people who are eligible to apply to the foundation programme. Individuals from across the the EU with the right to work in the UK are eligible to apply (e.g. graduates form EU/EEA medical schools, graduates of medical schools in British oversees territories, UK medical schools outside of UK). I have never heard of any graduate of a UK medical school struggle to get a position. The only people who tend to have difficulty are gradates from non-UK medical schools.

tl;dr In a system that privileges UK nationals, I think the OP would be considered on par with UK nationals and above EU nationals (many from non-UK medical schools) who currently apply in large numbers to the UK foundation programme.

 

[coucouloulou]

I’d be surprised if EU citizens didn’t have an advantage over non-EU applicants (not as big as now but still) after Dec 2020, especially since universities have a big influence and are not happy about the brain drain...
I found out that I can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge since I’m not a school leaver!
If I also applied to KCL and ICL, would that be too dangerous?
I’m probably going to go with 3 standard entry and 1 graduate, considering these schools are all extremely competitive and the BSc gives me an edge...

 

[phdtomduk]

I’d be surprised if EU citizens didn’t have an advantage over non-EU applicants (not as big as now but still) after Dec 2020, especially since universities have a big influence and are not happy about the brain drain...
I found out that I can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge since I’m not a school leaver!
If I also applied to KCL and ICL, would that be too dangerous?
I’m probably going to go with 3 standard entry and 1 graduate, considering these schools are all extremely competitive and the BSc gives me an edge...

Yeah, I'm also inclined to think there were still be some sort of preferential treatment of EU/EEA nationals. But this lack of clarity is frustrating. Brexit is next year and EU/EEA nationals still don't know how they will be treated by institutions (schools, schemes).

As far as school selection, I think going with 3 standard entry and 1 graduate entry is a fine balance. School selection is always a difficult and personal question. I'd recommend checking out Entry Requriements for UK Medical Schools which includes competition ratios, including applicants/interviews per positions. Of course, since all applicants are only applying to four schools, these ratios do not tell you much about the quality of the candidates applying to each school.

Some other things to consider: Which program will be the GEM? Oxford and Cambridge are both 6 year programs. Are you okay paying such high fees for 6 years? King's requires the UKCAT. Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial require the BMAT.

 

[coucouloulou]

Yeah, I'm also inclined to think there were still be some sort of preferential treatment of EU/EEA nationals. But this lack of clarity is frustrating. Brexit is next year and EU/EEA nationals still don't know how they will be treated by institutions (schools, schemes).

As far as school selection, I think going with 3 standard entry and 1 graduate entry is a fine balance. School selection is always a difficult and personal question. I'd recommend checking out which includes competition ratios, including applicants/interviews per positions. Of course, since all applicants are only applying to four schools, these ratios do not tell you much about the quality of the candidates applying to each school.

Some other things to consider: Which program will be the GEM? Oxford and Cambridge are both 6 year programs. Are you okay paying such high fees for 6 years? King's requires the UKCAT. Cambridge, Oxford and Imperial require the BMAT.

Probably Oxford for GEM... Thanks for the PDF, it's very helpful!
Well for the cost, if I can pay home fees it would be fine. If not, that might be a problem because for Cambridge tuition is more than £70 000 and I don't know if I'd have access to student loans (again, Brexit )
I'm planning on taking both the BMAT and UKCAT. If requirements change and I end up being unable to apply to a school, I'll apply to Warwick as a backup.

 

[mdphdNYC]

I found out that I can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge since I’m not a school leaver!

Where did you learn this from? As far as I know this limit is enforced directly by the UCAS application site - for medicine, even the obscure "organ scholar exception" doesn't apply. Now that you bring it up, the undergraduate and postgraduate applications are separate on UCAS so you could in principle apply UG to one and PG to the other and not be detected. I doubt many people have done this in the past so they probably don't have any way to detect this or an official policy prohibiting it

 

[Medstart108]

I’d be surprised if EU citizens didn’t have an advantage over non-EU applicants (not as big as now but still) after Dec 2020, especially since universities have a big influence and are not happy about the brain drain...
I found out that I can apply to both Oxford and Cambridge since I’m not a school leaver!
If I also applied to KCL and ICL, would that be too dangerous?
I’m probably going to go with 3 standard entry and 1 graduate, considering these schools are all extremely competitive and the BSc gives me an edge...

They actually had a disadvantage because they were competing with UK applicants before since the seats were funded. However, as long as you are paying the high fees of international students, I don't think they care whether or not you are an EU citizen. As far as I am away you are only eligible for EU fee status if you lived in the EU in the last however many years for a certain period of time.

 

[phdtomduk]

They actually had a disadvantage because they were competing with UK applicants before since the seats were funded. However, as long as you are paying the high fees of international students, I don't think they care whether or not you are an EU citizen. As far as I am away you are only eligible for EU fee status if you lived in the EU in the last however many years for a certain period of time.

We were discussing preferential treatment in the foundation programme, not university admissions (or at least I was). Right now all graduates of UK medical schools are guaranteed an F1 position, but there was a suggestion above that the criteria could always change to preferentially place UK nationals.

Agree about the fee status. It's about both residency and citizenship/visa status. In the UK, home fees requires being "ordinarily resident" in the UK for the three years immediately prior to your course. There are exceptions for temporary absences and it is possible to be ordinarily resident in more than one place, so if OPs family has maintained a residence in the EU, it's possible they could claim that as their permanent residence for the past few years (with their school as a temporary residence).

 

[coucouloulou]

There are exceptions for temporary absences and it is possible to be ordinarily resident in more than one place, so if OPs family has maintained a residence in the EU, it's possible they could claim that as their permanent residence for the past few years (with their school as a temporary residence).

Yes, that's exactly what I was planning on doing. As to university admissions, I'd say UK citizen > EU >>> international. It's already the case now (unofficially) and should become official post-Brexit.
Paying home fees depends on tax status, among other things. I think that considering my family pays taxes there, I should be considered a home student.
For the foundation programme, it wouldn't make sense for them to reject UK med school graduates. However, the website of QMUL mentioned that a Medical Licensing Assesment would be introduced in 2022, with a knowledge test and a practical; that's probably how they plan on filtering the access to the Foundation programme.

 

[Medstart108]

Yes, that's exactly what I was planning on doing. As to university admissions, I'd say UK citizen > EU >>> international. It's already the case now (unofficially) and should become official post-Brexit.
Paying home fees depends on tax status, among other things. I think that considering my family pays taxes there, I should be considered a home student.
For the foundation programme, it wouldn't make sense for them to reject UK med school graduates. However, the website of QMUL mentioned that a Medical Licensing Assesment would be introduced in 2022, with a knowledge test and a practical; that's probably how they plan on filtering the access to the Foundation programme.

I believe May just exempted Tier 2 Visas for the NHS from the quota a few days ago?