Pain Management

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PMR TX MS

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Hey,

Had a question regarding pain fellowships. I'm interested in PMR and anesthesiology at this point. Looking at the PMR site, it seems it's better to go through PMR to do this (although again, it is on the PMR site). What does anesthesiology have to say about this? I don't mean for this to end in a bitter distaste of either field, just wanted to know what the difference was in doing pain through PMR or anesthesiology, advantages/disadvantages, etc.
Thanks!
 
ask yourself what you want to do for your 4 years of residency before fellowship.... if you want to be in the OR or if you want to be in a rehab unit... that is what it basically comes down to...
 
PMR TX MS said:
Hey,

Had a question regarding pain fellowships. I'm interested in PMR and anesthesiology at this point. Looking at the PMR site, it seems it's better to go through PMR to do this (although again, it is on the PMR site). What does anesthesiology have to say about this? I don't mean for this to end in a bitter distaste of either field, just wanted to know what the difference was in doing pain through PMR or anesthesiology, advantages/disadvantages, etc.
Thanks!

Since you are on a gas forum, expect to hear that anesthesia is the way to go. I know an anesthetist who only does chronic pain control, makes about 600K per annum. Fair change for 4+1 training. The experience with intrathecal injections is what he attributes to the benefit of gas over rehab when entering this field.
 
Thanks for the quick info so far. A few more questions regarding this topic. Does PMR prepare you better or worse for pain than anesthesiology? Also, if one were to do anesthesiology electives and get IC experience, would there be a difference in what a physiatrist vs. an anesthesiologist did? Would the pain fellowship through PMR prepare you the same for IC stuff? What's the lifestyle of a pain management specialist in anesthesiology?
Thanks!
 
If pain fellowships are still around in 4-5 years, it is likely that the training will be more than 1 year through anesthesia (1.5-2 years is the number throwing around). It is also possible, that pain will become an ABMS specialty, which means it will no longer be a fellowship, but you will do a full residency (perhaps 3-4 years).

To answer your question, if you like to put people to sleep, do procedures, interest in pharmacology, do gas; if you like rehab, musculoskeletal medicine, helping people to regain their function after illness/trauma, explore PM&R.
 
I humbly and respectfully disagree with the approaches taken by the previous posters.

Before you decide what you prefer to do for your residency, it's better to first think about if you can *get* a fellowship.

I am making the assumption that you want to do interventional pain, not chronic medical management (otherwise, you wouldn't be worried about gas's superiority in getting into the epidural space). there is always going to be a fair amount of the chronic med management stuff...maybe you could think of it as 2-3 days of clinic to generate 1 day's worth of procedures. if you don't want to do interventional pain you may not need to do a fellowship.

I say "what you can get" b/c through the pm&r route, even though you may be better qualified, it will be much, much harder to get a pain fellowship that trains you in non-injection preocedures (implantable stimulators, pumps, RF ablation, etc). and more than half of people who have matched into pm&r in the last couple of years say they want to do that. the recently matriculated residents are in general a much more competitive bunch than the graduating pmr residents, objectively shown by the increasing numbers required to match at better programs. so you will have to be much stronger than the current pmr pgy4s to get an interventional pain fellowship through pmr in 4 years.

regardless of who is more prepared, most interventional pain fellowships are run by anesthesia and prefer anesthesia (although they still take pmr folks, but fewer).

it doesn't matter that gas folks are more facile getting into the epidural space blind via loss of resistance technique...in practice you are going to do everything under flouro, and your fellowship will teach you all that. but there are a limited number of pmr-only fellowships, and they will be tougher and tougher to get.

i think rehab folks will probably be better pain docs, but if you know you want to do pain (and i think it's a reach to say the average 25 year old med student really knows they do...doing a rotation or 2 and getting excited by it isn't a good comparison to whether or not you want to do it when it's second nature and the chronic whiners start getting to you...plus a lot of the procedures/injections being done don't have overwhelming evidence as to their efficacy yet...check out any of the evidence-based reviews...neither does spinal surgery either, for that matter).

keep in mind that the majority of gas graduating gas residents that *can* get an interventional pain fellowship choose not to. the opposite is (probably) true for pm&r. is suggest you do some informal polling with some questions for pmr bound folks like "Are you interested in doing a fellowship to do more inteventional pain procedures?"

just the thoughts of a gas-bound intern who went down this road a year ago (i am also s/p laminectomy for back problems, so i kind of identify with the chronic whiners). hope this helps


neuropathic said:
If pain fellowships are still around in 4-5 years, it is likely that the training will be more than 1 year through anesthesia (1.5-2 years is the number throwing around). It is also possible, that pain will become an ABMS specialty, which means it will no longer be a fellowship, but you will do a full residency (perhaps 3-4 years).

To answer your question, if you like to put people to sleep, do procedures, interest in pharmacology, do gas; if you like rehab, musculoskeletal medicine, helping people to regain their function after illness/trauma, explore PM&R.
 
i have to agree with Joshmir.... I know some very good PMR pain guys. And their exposure to rehab is definitely beneficial.

But as it stands right now, it is a LOT easier to get interventional pain spots with anesthesia as your springboard.
 
Great post, Joshmir.

I would also say to people aspiring to pain, spend time in a pain clinic. I was one of the PM&R matriculants who was considering pain, and am now reconsidering my position after working with pain patients. 😛

If you still are considering pain and PM&R, look for programs with in-house Pain fellowships (hint UMich!) :laugh: It's only going to get more competitive, as Medicine and Neuro try to get in on the procedures as well.
 
As a neurology resident planning to subspecialize in pain, I just wanted to add my two cents to this thread. The truth is, even general neurologists practice alot of pain management because a LARGE percentage of our patients present with pain issues...headache, neuropathies, radiculopathies, CRPS, chronic back pain, failed backs, etc. There have always been a few neurologists interested in interventional pain, therefore some of us have always been "in on the proceedures". However, most neurologists have no interest in pursuing that type of training. We're a very cerebral group and most of us prefer "thinking" to "doing". My point is, I don't foresee any mad rush by neurology into interventional pain so you have nothing to worry about from us. Additionally, board certification is limited to anesthesia, neuro, PM&R, psych and I think neurosurg, therefore I don't see IM trying to get in on the game since they can't sit for the boards.
 
hi. do you think that psych can get interventional pain fellowships?thankz
 
I think it's possible but probably pretty difficult. I didn't meet one single psych resident on the interview trail this year. However, Brigham and Womens has a psychiatrist on their interventional staff and the chair at UC Davis is med/psych, so I know it can be done. If you're really interested I'd try to talk to the guy in Boston. Sorry, I can't remember his name but you can find his contact info on their web site.
 
PM+R vs Anesth residency for a career in "Pain"
Interesting debate here. I decided to go the PM+R route, specifically at a program with strong musculoskeletal exposure, multiple electives, and several in-house fellowship opportunities.

I agree, a strong anesth applicant may have advantages getting into a fellowships, but PM+R applicants may have some advantages also. In particular, depending on which residency program u attend, you get extensive training in musculoskeletal and neuroanatomy, biomechanics and the MSK exam, electrodiagnostics, and psychology...all of which seem essential to be a really good pain doc. On the other hand, some PM+R applicants may get very little interventional experience during residency.

Historically, Anesths and Neurosurgeons have probably contributed the most to improvements in the field. However, in my opinion, the PM+R route may eventually produce the more well-rounded pain physician, especially if he/she can get into an anesth based interventional fellowship. It would seem to me that pain fellowships with both anesthesiologists and physiatrists would be most beneficial for each breed of fellow.
 
Both are legitimate pathways and each specialty brings something unique to the table. The ABA and ABPMR jointly sponsor the sub-specialty examination in pain medicine. The majority of ACGME accredited pain fellowships are in anesthesia departments and though those programs are not supposed to use pain fellows for OR coverage, this happens not uncommonly at most programs; hence anesthesia-based programs prefer taking anesthesiologists to help with coverage issues. I personally know many PM&R grads who have taken anesthesia-based pain slots and they've had no problems "getting up to speed." At Mayo, the PM&R-trained pain fellows are required to do a month of combined airway management and "PACU-lite" whereas the anethesia-trained pain fellows get use that month for an elective. So, different programs will deal with the issue differently.
 
actually in order to be ACGME accredited the programs cannot expect their fellows to provide OR coverage. I think being exposed to the acute pain issues seen in the PACU is appropriate, I also think being exposed to the basics of airway management is appropriate. However, I don't know of ANY ACGME pain fellowship that requires OR coverage....
 
i think it is just a matter of time before pain becomes its own primary specialty - i foresee 1 year internship and 3 years of residency....
 
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