PANICKING! School forcing me to defer or transfer

[Pezeveng]

I was accepted to Touro-NY (Harlem Campus) months ago. I have already spent thousands of dollars on deposits, lost deposits, housing, and plane tickets. My Manhattan apartment’s deposit alone cost me half my life savings. Now the school is forcing me and dozens of other students to defer or withdraw from the program for no legitimate reason.


Last week we received notice that Touro has overenrolled by about 40 students. The school can’t have a class size larger than 135 because of the building fire codes and COCA standards. At first we all thought it was a joke and the school just had a ton of empty seats in Middletown. Then, he school is started panicking made it obvious that they need to get rid of students, one way or another, before orientation in 1 month. They are now making up new rules and requirements to kick students out or force them to transfer to the Middleton campus because that campus doesn’t have zoning regulations of the New York City to have more than 135 students per class.


10 students have already been forced to defer because they didn’t have their paperwork or medical immunization forms “in order.” My roommate who has a blood disorder doesn't have his HepB shots and the school used that as an excuse to defer him to the next graduating class. Now the school has decided that they will not be accepting AP credit in fulfilling English and Math requirements. About 50 students received calls threatening to defer because the school just decided to enforce these rules. The thing is, this was NEVER disclosed to us, not in the interview day or on their website. The school catalog also doesn't have any rules on this as well. Some international students that have never taken AP courses have also gotten the call and, pretty much, said to transfer to Middletown because Manhattan is gross and other lame excuses. THEY ARE MAKING THIS UP AS THEY GO ALONG!


Now, why am I here on SDN. Our Facebook page is useless. Students are giving up their fight and letting the school make up arbitrary rules to force students to defer to cover up their mistake. At this point, we are playing phone tag with administrators because they are too scared to leave a paper trace behind them with email for liability purposes. Upperclassmen are just putting their hands in the air and saying that the administration sucks and they make up rules all the time and we have to somehow be complacent. I have emailed faculty and they have responded saying that they have zero role in admissions. So I am here on SDN asking if you all have any idea of someone I can contact in COCA or AACOMAS or AOA quickly to use muscle power to help me and dozens of other students trapped in limbo


THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to get here only to be told "oops." I have left out personal details out of this to remain anonymous but, trust me, if I told you more it would be even worse. The worst part is the school is taking no financial responsibility on this either. I'm losing my mind! I haven't stepped foot in a DO school yet and I absolutely hate it already. I knew this was a gamble but never expected THIS to happen.

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[lymphocyte]

Lawyer up. Did you sign any paperwork with your deposit? Was there a contract? Maybe promissory estoppel applies? Who knows? A lawyer does. As a group, you should be seeking advice from one. Immediately.

It doesn't mean you have to sue or necessarily do anything confrontational (to preserve whatever goodwill there clearly isn't), but you would be getting the professional opinion of an expert, as opposed to anonymous help from medical students over the Internet. I promise that the cost of a 1 hour consultation split over 50 medical students will be a lot cheaper than losing your deposit money. Also, strength in numbers if you're worried about being singled out for retaliation.

How to find a lawyer? Just call the local bar association (they offer free, un-biased referals to lawyers that specialise in your legal issues): http://apps.americanbar.org/legalservices/lris/directory/main.cfm?id=NY

I swear I'm not a lawyer or have any family members that are. I honestly just think that it's the best remedy for your situation.

I'm generally in support of naming and shaming, but it could also negatively impact the reputation of the school that you hope to attend (or the degree you hope to obtain)--a reputation you may rely on when applying for residency. It's a tough bind.

I'm really sorry you're in this situation. You deserve better from your school. I hope things turn out well.

 

[coffee-doc]

lol wtf. That's total and absolute bull **** on the school's part. I would fight the **** out of that

 

[chibaddie]

Damn... I know I'm not helping here, but damn. What utter nonsense.

 

[hellobello18]

Former Masters student here. It's true that the administration is a joke and the school is terrible but I'm SHOCKED to read this. Doesn't summer anatomy start soon? OP, so sorry you have to go through this. I completely agree that you and other students should seek legal counsel. Touro is a money-hungry institution but even this is low for them. I hope everything works out!

 

[kenjixshadow]

Like lymphocyte said, lawyer up. Who cares if the school administration will dislike you, they are f-ing you over. Moreover, since that you got accepted to Touro-Harlem, you should be able to get accepted somewhere else (stats wise). Reapply to different schools. If you get accepted else where in the next cycle, I'd go there over Touro.

 

[dogemeow]

Damn that sucks, considering your deposit and it seems like you're really gung ho about starting this year. I do think the situation is unfortunate and the way they are handling it is extremely poor and I'm curious to see how they will continue to respond. I'm currently wait listed at Middletown but if what you're saying is true then I'm sure Middletown is not going to have any wait list movement at all, which is kind of fine by me after reading about your catastrophe.

 

[hallowmann]

The school should be compensating you for lost future income. You really should consider getting together with a lawyer and talking about your options. You should also each file a complaint with COCA and the AOA, just to prevent something like this from happening again.

When this happens at other schools, they offer tuition breaks. The year before I applied to medical school PSU Hershey overaccepted students, then offered for students to go in a lottery to defer for 1 year and get the first 2 yrs of med school tuition covered by the school. I actually know one of the handful of people that won that lottery. They are coming out with 2 yrs less of debt because of it (and there were other reasons for them as to why it was beneficial).

The school cannot force you to defer for no reason without giving you some sort of compensation. You are losing at least $200k in future earnings because of a 1 yr deferment alone. They should at least be able to cover you for 1 year of tuition.

By the way, overaccepting by 40 confirmed students (30%) this late in the game is pretty much unheard of. What were they thinking? That's what waitlists are for.

To be completely honest, this would make me hate the idea of going to Touro too, and it honestly makes me glad I chose against it.

 

[Pezeveng]

After speaking with a few secretaries and getting more info from other students, I'm realizing that this is a significantly more complicated issue.

Last week, the school sent an email letting students know about the option to transfer for free to Middleton.

Late last week, students that didn't have their forms in order (medical forms, physical forms, deposits, background checks) were told that their seat had been given away, without any warning.

Earlier this week, a few students were chosen at random and were told to transfer to Middleton. No options. At this point the school was open that they had over enrolled and it was pretty much a lottery on who was chosen. Those students fought back and won.

Now, starting last Wednesday, the school has totally changed its tone. Now it's our fault that we took AP classes and we are "deficient" in requirements. Our fault. Touro has a social science requirement that most students used AP Psych to fulfill. The Dean told me today that Touro never accepted AP credit. She's asking me to defer for a year to fulfill this requirement. This is totally different from what I was told yesterday. I DON'T HAVE THE OPTION TO GO TO MIDDLETON ANYMORE. Apparently that option is now also off the table because Middleton is at capacity also. You either defer or withdraw. I'm still emailing other deans, including the college Dean.

They are literally making these up by the hour. The most frustrating part is that none of this was in writing and I don't have proof for any of this. Everything is being done over the phone. When I told the official today that I would consider Middleton and forgive my housing deposit in Manhattan. I was informed that that's not an option and never was.

 

[Pezeveng]

@Goro please help

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

Oh my God! This sounds like a nightmare! This can't be real!

Can anyone else confirm this?

 

[trs88]

You need to find an attorney, fast. If they are changing things this quickly, it seems like you could wake up tomorrow and no longer have an acceptance.

 

[hallowmann]

After speaking with a few secretaries and getting more info from other students, I'm realizing that this is a significantly more complicated issue.

Last week, the school sent an email letting students know about the option to transfer for free to Middleton.

Late last week, students that didn't have their forms in order (medical forms, physical forms, deposits, background checks) were told that their seat had been given away, without any warning.

Earlier this week, a few students were chosen at random and were told to transfer to Middleton. No options. At this point the school was open that they had over enrolled and it was pretty much a lottery on who was chosen. Those students fought back and won.

Now, starting last Wednesday, the school has totally changed its tone. Now it's our fault that we took AP classes and we are "deficient" in requirements. Our fault. Touro has a social science requirement that most students used AP Psych to fulfill. The Dean told me today that Touro never accepted AP credit. She's asking me to defer for a year to fulfill this requirement. This is totally different from what I was told yesterday. I DON'T HAVE THE OPTION TO GO TO MIDDLETON ANYMORE. Apparently that option is now also off the table because Middleton is at capacity also. You either defer or withdraw. I'm still emailing other deans, including the college Dean.

They are literally making these up by the hour. The most frustrating part is that none of this was in writing and I don't have proof for any of this. Everything is being done over the phone. When I told the official today that I would consider Middleton and forgive my housing deposit in Manhattan. I was informed that that's not an option and never was.

How can the school accept you, then have you pay a deposit (and I'm sure they cashed the deposit right away), and then tell you, oh yeah, we now don't accept AP credits, and you don't fulfill matriculation requirements?

Do you have any written policy or proof from when you applied stating the requirement? See if current students have a copy of the old handbook from when you applied. If it states that AP credit is acceptable for courses, you should be able to argue this policy.

If I was being forced to defer and pay to take another class, and nothing ends up working, I'd just reapply to other DO schools. If I got in somewhere else, I'd flip Touro the bird and peace out. Its still messed up on many levels, and having this many problems before even starting would make me really wary about going there.

I'm sorry, I've recommended Touro-NY to others in the past, but this combined to what I heard recently from a couple 3rd and 4th years is really making me reconsider all of that.

 

[Pezeveng]

@hallowmann is it okay if I send you a message? I have a question I want to ask

 

[hallowmann]

@hallowmann is it okay if I send you a message? I have a question I want to ask

Sure, but I'm not sure how much help I'll be. I've honestly never heard of someone being in this situation before.

 

[KP2AZ]

please lawyer up, or get advice from one. the school has more resources than you, and can try to make you jump through hoops just to end up cutting you over a technicality. you dont want to be associated with a school that puts you through this if you can help it- medical school is hard enough as it is, without having to worry about admin. Good luck.

 

[DoReMiFaSo]

My brain can't comprehend this lvl of clusterf... I'm sorry OP, hang in there, best wishes..

 

[Meeehai]

I was accepted to Touro-NY (Harlem Campus) months ago. I have already spent thousands of dollars on deposits, lost deposits, housing, and plane tickets. My Manhattan apartment’s deposit alone cost me half my life savings. Now the school is forcing me and dozens of other students to defer or withdraw from the program for no legitimate reason.


Last week we received notice that Touro has overenrolled by about 40 students. The school can’t have a class size larger than 135 because of the building fire codes and COCA standards. At first we all thought it was a joke and the school just had a ton of empty seats in Middletown. Then, he school is started panicking made it obvious that they need to get rid of students, one way or another, before orientation in 1 month. They are now making up new rules and requirements to kick students out or force them to transfer to the Middleton campus because that campus doesn’t have zoning regulations of the New York City to have more than 135 students per class.


10 students have already been forced to defer because they didn’t have their paperwork or medical immunization forms “in order.” My roommate who has a blood disorder doesn't have his HepB shots and the school used that as an excuse to defer him to the next graduating class. Now the school has decided that they will not be accepting AP credit in fulfilling English and Math requirements. About 50 students received calls threatening to defer because the school just decided to enforce these rules. The thing is, this was NEVER disclosed to us, not in the interview day or on their website. The school catalog also doesn't have any rules on this as well. Some international students that have never taken AP courses have also gotten the call and, pretty much, said to transfer to Middletown because Manhattan is gross and other lame excuses. THEY ARE MAKING THIS UP AS THEY GO ALONG!


Now, why am I here on SDN. Our Facebook page is useless. Students are giving up their fight and letting the school make up arbitrary rules to force students to defer to cover up their mistake. At this point, we are playing phone tag with administrators because they are too scared to leave a paper trace behind them with email for liability purposes. Upperclassmen are just putting their hands in the air and saying that the administration sucks and they make up rules all the time and we have to somehow be complacent. I have emailed faculty and they have responded saying that they have zero role in admissions. So I am here on SDN asking if you all have any idea of someone I can contact in COCA or AACOMAS or AOA quickly to use muscle power to help me and dozens of other students trapped in limbo


THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to get here only to be told "oops." I have left out personal details out of this to remain anonymous but, trust me, if I told you more it would be even worse. The worst part is the school is taking no financial responsibility on this either. I'm losing my mind! I haven't stepped foot in a DO school yet and I absolutely hate it already. I knew this was a gamble but never expected THIS to happen.

Wow that's crazy, I never thought a professional school would ever do something like this. I don't have any other advice than to contact a lawyer immediately, but I do want to send you the best of luck and hope you make it through without getting royally screwed.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

Wow. Really lowers my opinion of Touro-NY by several notches (it wasn't especially high to begin with).

I agree with the above - if they try to force you to defer, apply elsewhere. A med school experience that starts like this is bound to get way, way worse.

 

[Mad Jack]

I was accepted to Touro-NY (Harlem Campus) months ago. I have already spent thousands of dollars on deposits, lost deposits, housing, and plane tickets. My Manhattan apartment’s deposit alone cost me half my life savings. Now the school is forcing me and dozens of other students to defer or withdraw from the program for no legitimate reason.


Last week we received notice that Touro has overenrolled by about 40 students. The school can’t have a class size larger than 135 because of the building fire codes and COCA standards. At first we all thought it was a joke and the school just had a ton of empty seats in Middletown. Then, he school is started panicking made it obvious that they need to get rid of students, one way or another, before orientation in 1 month. They are now making up new rules and requirements to kick students out or force them to transfer to the Middleton campus because that campus doesn’t have zoning regulations of the New York City to have more than 135 students per class.


10 students have already been forced to defer because they didn’t have their paperwork or medical immunization forms “in order.” My roommate who has a blood disorder doesn't have his HepB shots and the school used that as an excuse to defer him to the next graduating class. Now the school has decided that they will not be accepting AP credit in fulfilling English and Math requirements. About 50 students received calls threatening to defer because the school just decided to enforce these rules. The thing is, this was NEVER disclosed to us, not in the interview day or on their website. The school catalog also doesn't have any rules on this as well. Some international students that have never taken AP courses have also gotten the call and, pretty much, said to transfer to Middletown because Manhattan is gross and other lame excuses. THEY ARE MAKING THIS UP AS THEY GO ALONG!


Now, why am I here on SDN. Our Facebook page is useless. Students are giving up their fight and letting the school make up arbitrary rules to force students to defer to cover up their mistake. At this point, we are playing phone tag with administrators because they are too scared to leave a paper trace behind them with email for liability purposes. Upperclassmen are just putting their hands in the air and saying that the administration sucks and they make up rules all the time and we have to somehow be complacent. I have emailed faculty and they have responded saying that they have zero role in admissions. So I am here on SDN asking if you all have any idea of someone I can contact in COCA or AACOMAS or AOA quickly to use muscle power to help me and dozens of other students trapped in limbo


THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to get here only to be told "oops." I have left out personal details out of this to remain anonymous but, trust me, if I told you more it would be even worse. The worst part is the school is taking no financial responsibility on this either. I'm losing my mind! I haven't stepped foot in a DO school yet and I absolutely hate it already. I knew this was a gamble but never expected THIS to happen.

Lawyer time. Touro is notorious for accepting far more students than they can accommodate so they can get that sweet, sweet deposit money.

 

[Mad Jack]

I would also send a letter to the NY attorney general, as this sounds like a clear case of a business abusing their position and consumers suffering for it.

 

[Pezeveng]

Are some of you serious?
NO, I can't reapply. I don't know if I can collect new LORs. I don't know if schools will take my old MCAT score. I need to write new essays. I haven't done any of that. It took me months to prepare last year. How am I supposed to reapply on such short notice? I also don't know how I would afford it. I've already paid thousands this cycle. Plus graduating in 2021 versus 2020 means competing with about 500 more DOs+MDs in the match process. I want to graduate as soon as possible which is why, at this point, I'll gladly take a seat at Middleton and forfeit my Manhattan housing deposit.
NO, I don't know how I would even go about using/finding a lawyer. I live in a very rural area, far away from Manhattan. School literally starts in a month. Plus I would already blacklist my name at the school. I'll be known as that "one kid" who got a lawyer involved.
At this point, I'm pretty much going to beg, kick, and scream to keep a seat at either Harlem or Middleton. I feel like this is one big joke or nightmare.
I feel very terrible for some other classmates that were kicked out last week. I counted 8 students so far who were forced to defer because of bogus excuses like incomplete physical form or whatever. It looks like they've accepted the decision. The students with the AP credits are ones in limbo now. God knows who will be in trouble next week.

 

[lymphocyte]

I would also send a letter to the NY attorney general, as this sounds like a clear case of a business abusing their position and consumers suffering for it.

Get a lawyer to draft it, make it as factual as possible, and CC Touro, AACOMAS, etc. You can't threaten them or even ask for anything in exchange for not sending it, but I guarantee it'll light a fire under their butt. It might also prevent this from happening again...

At this point, don't even intimate that you'll be getting a lawyer. Otherwise, they'll start documenting a whole lot more defensively...

 

[Mad Jack]

Get a lawyer to draft it, make it as factual as possible, and CC Touro, AACOMAS, etc. You can't threaten them or even ask for anything in exchange for not sending it, but I guarantee it'll light a fire under their butt. It might also prevent this from happening again...

At this point, don't even intimate that you'll be getting a lawyer. Otherwise, they'll start documenting a whole lot more defensively...

+1

 

[lymphocyte]

Are some of you serious?
NO, I can't reapply. I don't know if I can collect new LORs. .

Then you're here just to vent. Or find a sky crane to magically pluck you away from this utter ****-show.

Either way, I'm sorry you're going through this.

 

[hellobello18]

Are some of you serious?
NO, I can't reapply. I don't know if I can collect new LORs. I don't know if schools will take my old MCAT score. I need to write new essays. I haven't done any of that. It took me months to prepare last year. How am I supposed to reapply on such short notice? I also don't know how I would afford it. I've already paid thousands this cycle. Plus graduating in 2021 versus 2020 means competing with about 500 more DOs+MDs in the match process. I want to graduate as soon as possible which is why, at this point, I'll gladly take a seat at Middleton and forfeit my Manhattan housing deposit.
NO, I don't know how I would even go about using/finding a lawyer. I live in a very rural area, far away from Manhattan. School literally starts in a month. Plus I would already blacklist my name at the school. I'll be known as that "one kid" who got a lawyer involved.
At this point, I'm pretty much going to beg, kick, and scream to keep a seat at either Harlem or Middleton. I feel like this is one big joke or nightmare.
I feel very terrible for some other classmates that were kicked out last week. I counted 8 students so far who were forced to defer because of bogus excuses like incomplete physical form or whatever. It looks like they've accepted the decision. The students with the AP credits are ones in limbo now. God knows who will be in trouble next week.

Don't worry about that part. I know of at least one other person whose parents are planning to sue. And you're well within your right to get a lawyer involved. None of this is legal or ethical.

 

[Pezeveng]

Then you're here just to vent. Or find a sky crane to magically save you.

I'm sorry you're going through this. I wish you the best of luck.

I have no fu*king idea what I'm doing at this point. I am so lost. I'm 24 years old! I've never worked with a lawyer before. Plus I LOVE this school. The location, faculty, students. ugh. How can this be happening?
I was hoping someone here would know if this had happened before in the past at another school and would have advice or the contact info of someone in AOA or AACOMAS that can intervene but it looks like we're stuck. The school changing their tone today from "Oh could you transfer to Middleton" to "You have to defer or withdraw because you don't meet the requirements" has many of us just spinning because we really don't know wtf is going on or wtf we're going to do.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

I feel like much more of this shady business goes on at DO schools than MD schools. Another example of lax COCA regulations that leads to real impacts on DO students.

 

[Promethean]

Getting the lawyer is a fine idea. If they say that you have a case worth pursuing, go for it. A lawyer will know much better than any of us what recourse you may have and whether the satisfaction you could potentially receive would be worth the risks involved. That said...

Deferring a year isn't the worst, either, though, if that deferral *guarantees* you a seat in the next class, no further hoops to jump through. (Other than maybe taking a community college psych course in the interim.) You can use the gap year to work and earn some money to help with the depleted life savings, and to generally prepare to be in a much better situation when you do start. Knowing you have a seat waiting for you is a better place to be than going back into another application cycle, particularly one where you would have to explain this boondoggle to other schools.

Yes, this is BS. And yet... it still isn't the biggest BS you are likely to encounter in your career. It can be dealt with more or less gracefully.

Whatever you do, be careful. Offers can be rescinded for nebulous causes. All they have to do is say that you are being unprofessional in your response to this crisis, and let that be their reason. A BS charge of unprofessionalism is hard to fight. The schools are given enormous latitude when it comes to things like that. So, however you move forward, be sure that you do so with caution, respect, and documenting every conversation you have, including who you spoke to, at what time and on what date, and the details of the conversation. Even if all this is happening over the phone, you need to keep the most accurate factual record possible. Go back now and try to reconstruct as much information as you can remember about the calls that you've had so far (with a notation that you are recalling the details after the fact), and moving forward, document each interaction immediately after it occurs.

 

[Pezeveng]

Getting the lawyer is a fine idea. If they say that you have a case worth pursuing, go for it. A lawyer will know much better than any of us what recourse you may have and whether the satisfaction you could potentially receive would be worth the risks involved. That said...

Deferring a year isn't the worst, either, though, if that deferral *guarantees* you a seat in the next class, no further hoops to jump through. (Other than maybe taking a community college psych course in the interim.) You can use the gap year to work and earn some money to help with the depleted life savings, and to generally prepare to be in a much better situation when you do start. Knowing you have a seat waiting for you is a better place to be than going back into another application cycle, particularly one where you would have to explain this boondoggle to other schools.

Yes, this is BS. And yet... it still isn't the biggest BS you are likely to encounter in your career. It can be dealt with more or less gracefully.

Whatever you do, be careful. Offers can be rescinded for nebulous causes. All they have to do is say that you are being unprofessional in your response to this crisis, and let that be their reason. A BS charge of unprofessionalism is hard to fight. The schools are given enormous latitude when it comes to things like that. So, however you move forward, be sure that you do so with caution, respect, and documenting every conversation you have, including who you spoke to, at what time and on what date, and the details of the conversation. Even if all this is happening over the phone, you need to keep the most accurate factual record possible. Go back now and try to reconstruct as much information as you can remember about the calls that you've had so far (with a notation that you are recalling the details after the fact), and moving forward, document each interaction immediately after it occurs.

Would you trust a school to keep your seat open for a year when they couldn't even keep it for 4 months since paying my deposits?


They can just as easily say in a year, "You're MCAT is too old, sorry. Retake and apply again"
I do agree that professionalism is key. I'm trying my best to be firm yet kind, compassionate which is why I am now flexible with TOuro's old offer in going to Middleton at this point.

 

[Promethean]

Would you trust a school to keep your seat open for a year when they couldn't even keep it for 4 months since paying my deposits?

Would I look to make the best of a terrible situation, particularly if there were the potential for it to get much worse based on how I handled it? Yes, absolutely, I would.

It isn't about trusting them or not. It is about salvaging what you can from a disaster. You don't actually have a lot of great options, and they can find ways to make it somehow your fault and leave you with nothing. Lawyering up against your school, even when you win the case, is not a position you want to be in if there is a way around it. Medicine is a small world.

 

[Promethean]

I'm not saying don't talk to a lawyer. I'm saying that the students who are accepting deferrals may believe that discretion is the better part of valor, and that sometimes a tactical retreat or even a lost battle may still lead to winning the war. Just be very careful. Until you actually matriculate, you are exceptionally vulnerable.

 

[Pezeveng]

I'm not saying don't talk to a lawyer. I'm saying that the students who are accepting deferrals may believe that discretion is the better part of valor, and that sometimes a tactical retreat or even a lost battle may still lead to winning the war. Just be very careful. Until you actually matriculate, you are exceptionally vulnerable.

I totally agree which is why I posted earlier that I can't/don't want to get a lawyer involved. I want to eventually practice in NYC and, even in a city like NYC, I can imagine how quickly my name will circulate as the one kid who made this issue into something much bigger than it has to be.
I'm just kicking myself now that I look back at ever saying no yesterday. I should have just said "Yes, I'll take the Middleton transfer" instead of being shocked in silence and saying "I have to think about this more and I'll call you tomorrow." I would be home clear now. Some students mentioned yesterday that this was definitely an AACOMAS/clerical error but the calls today just keep confusing us.

Now upperclassman are chiming in saying that their AP credits were accepted.

 

[lymphocyte]

Would you trust a school to keep your seat open for a year when they couldn't even keep it for 4 months since paying my deposits?


They can just as easily say in a year, "You're MCAT is too old, sorry. Retake and apply again"
I do agree that professionalism is key. I'm trying my best to be firm yet kind, compassionate which is why I am now flexible with TOuro's old offer in going to Middleton at this point.

Whatever you do, get it in writing, as tactfully as you can manage. Even an email--like Hey, I'm happy to defer but can I get a formal guarantee in writing for my spot next year? They'll love you. You're fixing their problem with an easy solution (if you want to go down this path).

 

[Mad Jack]

Would I look to make the best of a terrible situation, particularly if there were the potential for it to get much worse based on how I handled it? Yes, absolutely, I would.

It isn't about trusting them or not. It is about salvaging what you can from a disaster. You don't actually have a lot of great options, and they can find ways to make it somehow your fault and leave you with nothing. Lawyering up against your school, even when you win the case, is not a position you want to be in if there is a way around it. Medicine is a small world.

This is a just fight though. The NYS attorney general should know about this, as this is highly unethical and likely illegal.

 

[lymphocyte]

Just be very careful. Until you actually matriculate, you are exceptionally vulnerable.

And even after. That's why you never go at it alone. Strength in numbers.

 

[Promethean]

Would you trust a school to keep your seat open for a year when they couldn't even keep it for 4 months since paying my deposits?


They can just as easily say in a year, "You're MCAT is too old, sorry. Retake and apply again"
I do agree that professionalism is key. I'm trying my best to be firm yet kind, compassionate which is why I am now flexible with TOuro's old offer in going to Middleton at this point.

A deferred acceptance doesn't mean that you go through their application process again there. It means that you are accepted, but that your matriculation is being delayed for a cycle.

Ask them to give you an assurance in writing that a seat will be yours, and if there are any conditions, request that those be spelled out for you in no uncertain terms as well.

No doubt, friend. This hoovers. It exhales forcefully. It is a miserable hand to have been dealt, and you have my deepest sympathies. I don't know that I would be able to handle it with the caution and patience that I recommend, were it happening to me. (I do hope that someone would remind me to try!) I'm sorry to hear about this misfortune and hope that it resolves for you in the best way possible.

 

[Mad Jack]

I feel like much more of this shady business goes on at DO schools than MD schools. Another example of lax COCA regulations that leads to real impacts on DO students.

This is a first, it seems. Touro has a reputation for accepting a lot of early cycle students that they do not expect to matriculate so that they can harvest their 4k deposit. Seems they overplayed that hand this year.

 

[Promethean]

This is a just fight though. The NYS attorney general should know about this, as this is highly unethical and likely illegal.

You are right. And yet... if there were an avenue forward that let me dodge the fight and still get to go to medical school next year, I'd take that route first.

I've butted my head against a few unethical and illegal organizations, and it has left me a bit worse for wear and with little to show for it. If there were no way forward other than to fight, that would be a different matter. But OP still has something left to lose, and that makes them vulnerable.

I think it is good that our different opinions are presented. OP will figure out how much of a fight they can stomach.

 

[Ioannes Paulus]

This is a first, it seems. Touro has a reputation for accepting a lot of early cycle students that they do not expect to matriculate so that they can harvest their 4k deposit. Seems they overplayed that hand this year.

I agree. I don't think this has anything to do with COCA. This just sounds like some really incompetent secretaries/directors.
I don't know though. There HAS to be more to this. How can a school just do this over AP credit? I feel like the OP might be keeping something private? It can't be THIS bad

 

[lymphocyte]

You are right. And yet... if there were an avenue forward that let me dodge the fight and still get to go to medical school next year, I'd take that route first.

I've butted my head against a few unethical and illegal organizations, and it has left me a bit worse for wear and with little to show for it. If there were no way forward other than to fight, that would be a different matter. But OP still has something left to lose, and that makes them vulnerable.

I think it is good that our different opinions are presented. OP will figure out how much of a fight they can stomach.

I'm actually going to reverse myself partly and agree with this. Precisely for the reasons you mention @Promethean.

I still think consulting a lawyer is wise, just to see what all your options are, how to document an agreement, what to do if you lose your spot, etc. Seeing a lawyer doesn't mean a public spectacle will ensue. It just means getting professional counsel.

 

[Mad Jack]

I'm actually going to reverse myself partly and agree with this. Precisely for the reasons you mention @Promethean.

I still think consulting a lawyer is wise, just to see what all your options are, how to document an agreement, what to do if you lose your spot, etc. Seeing a lawyer doesn't mean a public spectacle will ensue. It just means getting professional counsel.

Meh, this is the purpose of filing a complaint with the attorney general. You don't even need your name on it, just describe the nature of the problem and they perform a thorough investigation.

 

[hellobello18]

This is a first, it seems. Touro has a reputation for accepting a lot of early cycle students that they do not expect to matriculate so that they can harvest their 4k deposit. Seems they overplayed that hand this year.

As mentioned, I was a Masters student at Touro this past year. I watched as the deans interviewed and accepted people up until the end of April which I thought was..odd. Not to mention the 30-40 students from the masters program who matriculate into the first year class... so the interview season is supposed to fill the remaining 100 slots.

I was always of the belief that they wanted the money. A secondary at Touro is $200 and the deposit is at least 2k, I can't remember. All of this boils down to the administration's greed, lack of transparency, and unwillingness to do the right thing.

 

[FlatIsJustice]

$200 for a secondary and 4k for a deposit is a red flag not to apply to this school.

 

[Pezeveng]

As mentioned, I was a Masters student at Touro this past year. I watched as the deans interviewed and accepted people up until the end of April which I thought was..odd. Not to mention the 30-40 students from the masters program who matriculate into the first year class... so the interview season is supposed to fill the remaining 100 slots.

I was always of the belief that they wanted the money. A secondary at Touro is $200 and the deposit is at least 2k, I can't remember. All of this boils down to the administration's greed, lack of transparency, and unwillingness to do the right thing.

$200 for a secondary and 4k for a deposit is a red flag not to apply to this school.

Honestly, from my own research, it's not a money issue or a financial "profit." The secondary fee is large because they screen heavily before sending a secondary. If you get a secondary, you pretty much have a very high chance at an interview. Also, they honor the AACOMAS fee waiver which many DO schools don't. All schools (MD and DO) have a deposit. Most of them are around $1500-$2k.
I think the school always over enrolls because they accept candidates with the highest MCATs which end up getting acceptances at other MD or DO schools and drop. Everyone on my interview date had multiple other acceptances (including myself) but seemed to really want to come to the city for school.
I'm not bad mouthing the program at all. I think this is a great school that offers students A LOT. This whole situation underlies just how high the interest is for this school which led to the over-enrollment.
But, as @hellobello18 said, they already have ~40 students from the Masters program. Why are they interviewing into April? Western COMP, NSU, NYITCOM all have class sizes double that of Touro NY and they usually stop interviewing in February/March.

 

[Henry101]

Something is DEFINITELY not right here. I got an email in early May letting me know that they had extended the deposit deadline for Harlem. This usually indicates that the class is significantly empty to request more deposits for seats. If you go to the Harlem sub thread, the waitlist students were happy that this is a probable signal that the class isn't full yet and they are going to pull from the waitlist.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Take Touro NY off my school list: Check

 

[Peach Newport]

I was accepted to Touro-NY (Harlem Campus) months ago. I have already spent thousands of dollars on deposits, lost deposits, housing, and plane tickets. My Manhattan apartment’s deposit alone cost me half my life savings. Now the school is forcing me and dozens of other students to defer or withdraw from the program for no legitimate reason.


Last week we received notice that Touro has overenrolled by about 40 students. The school can’t have a class size larger than 135 because of the building fire codes and COCA standards. At first we all thought it was a joke and the school just had a ton of empty seats in Middletown. Then, he school is started panicking made it obvious that they need to get rid of students, one way or another, before orientation in 1 month. They are now making up new rules and requirements to kick students out or force them to transfer to the Middleton campus because that campus doesn’t have zoning regulations of the New York City to have more than 135 students per class.


10 students have already been forced to defer because they didn’t have their paperwork or medical immunization forms “in order.” My roommate who has a blood disorder doesn't have his HepB shots and the school used that as an excuse to defer him to the next graduating class. Now the school has decided that they will not be accepting AP credit in fulfilling English and Math requirements. About 50 students received calls threatening to defer because the school just decided to enforce these rules. The thing is, this was NEVER disclosed to us, not in the interview day or on their website. The school catalog also doesn't have any rules on this as well. Some international students that have never taken AP courses have also gotten the call and, pretty much, said to transfer to Middletown because Manhattan is gross and other lame excuses. THEY ARE MAKING THIS UP AS THEY GO ALONG!


Now, why am I here on SDN. Our Facebook page is useless. Students are giving up their fight and letting the school make up arbitrary rules to force students to defer to cover up their mistake. At this point, we are playing phone tag with administrators because they are too scared to leave a paper trace behind them with email for liability purposes. Upperclassmen are just putting their hands in the air and saying that the administration sucks and they make up rules all the time and we have to somehow be complacent. I have emailed faculty and they have responded saying that they have zero role in admissions. So I am here on SDN asking if you all have any idea of someone I can contact in COCA or AACOMAS or AOA quickly to use muscle power to help me and dozens of other students trapped in limbo


THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE! I have spent thousands upon thousands of dollars to get here only to be told "oops." I have left out personal details out of this to remain anonymous but, trust me, if I told you more it would be even worse. The worst part is the school is taking no financial responsibility on this either. I'm losing my mind! I haven't stepped foot in a DO school yet and I absolutely hate it already. I knew this was a gamble but never expected THIS to happen.

Dear Pezeveng,
I would like to know two peices of information:
1) can you describe, in detail, what exactly YOUR experience has been? Most specifically, I want to know of your interactions with the school, and the specific reasons they gave for asking you to defer. Maybe I'm just a bit confused by your story.

2) can you please tell us where you got those numbers from? In your story, you make a lot of claims that I can't substantiate. How do you know that Touro overaccepted by 40 students? Did they give you that number in the email? I'd like to see the text of that email, obviously with names taken out. How do you know that 10 students got defered over medical forms? That 50 were threatened based on AP credits?

I ask because I've been looking carefully on the Facebook page, and I've seen the following:
1) an international student was told he might have to transfer to Middletown, and he successfully argued against it. (Worrying).
2) One student was forcibly deferred because he didn't send in his second deposit form. (Very harsh but fair)
3) One student was told that she was having her acceptance withdrawn because they didn't have her deposit. She claims they lost it and is currently arguing it. (Could be honest mistake).
3) A bunch of people, about 20 but perhaps more, saying they got an email about prerequisite deficiencies, mostly due to AP credits. The group members all seem to say that these emails are supposed lead to "fact finding," i.e. Confirming the prerequisites. (Could be honest mistake).
4) A grand total of two students saying they were told they might have to defer over their AP credits not fulfilling the prerequisites. (Worrying).


I'll tell you what else I see though: a lot of incoming first years completely terrified and fearing the worst. A lot of scared students catastrophizing and feeding each other's neurosis.

I do not see evidence, at least not on the Facebook page, of such widespread abuse that you are reporting here. I do not see post after post of students claiming to have been forcibly deferred. Though some of the incidents themselves are a bit worrying, they appear to be much fewer in number than you claim, and many aren't final and could conceivably be chalked up to reversible administrative mistakes.

I know I've been a little confrontational here, and I apologize, I do not mean this as a personal attack.

I'll just say this now: I think something awful happened to you, but I can't help but wonder if you're projecting the issues a bit too far. I get it, if this happened to me, I'd be really upset. I'd be crushed. But I also do not want to de-legitimize or invalidate your experience. What you claim to have happened to you is horrible, and I fully beleive that you've been screwed over. This is why I want more details of your story. But I want your sources, because you don't appear to have gotten those numbers and incidents from the Facebook page. If so many people were screwed over as you say, then where are they?

 

[Pezeveng]

Dear Pezeveng,
I would like to know two peices of information:
1) can you describe, in detail, what exactly YOUR experience has been? Most specifically, I want to know of your interactions with the school, and the specific reasons they gave for asking you to defer. Maybe I'm just a bit confused by your story.

2) can you please tell us where you got those numbers from? In your story, you make a lot of claims that I can't substantiate. How do you know that Touro overaccepted by 40 students? Did they give you that number in the email? I'd like to see the text of that email, obviously with names taken out. How do you know that 10 students got defered over medical forms? That 50 were threatened based on AP credits?

I will send you a message. I shouldn't have mentioned the name of the school here. I love this school soo much. My mind was spiriling very fast in the morning and I felt shamed to discuss on the facebook page especially when I found the upperclassman to be unhelpful even when I messaged them directly. 12 hours have passed since I spoke to Touro in the morning and it has given me a chance to breathe and relax and remind myself why I want to be a physician and why I want to go to NYC and what my goals are and remind myself that a school, any school, is more than a few secretaries. It's the faculty, the students, the location, the experience and that's what's important. I hope everyone reading this understands this, especially @AnatomyGrey12 and other students applying. I believe the Touro-Harlem is so incredibly unique. This entire situation is happening precisely because more people fell in love with the school than what the school expected. It's hard not to like and appreciate this school when you visit. The reason why so many people are getting emotional about this is because we want Touro-Harlem so badly. We're fighting because going to this school is worth it. I don't even know if I'm making sense anymore. ahhhh

 

[hellobello18]

Verrrrrry interesting. All I can say is that I was an actual Touro student. The masters program is an SMP so we took all of the first year classes excluding OMM and PD. So I'm VERY familiar with the school, with the staff, with the administration. Whatever that's going on with you guys is not normal, most likely not ethical, and honestly not surprising. Do you think this type of thing happens at other schools? It makes sense to be panicked but it'd be helpful if you were realistic too. How is it even possible for someone to be screened, interviewed, and accepted only to be told months later that they have deficiencies in their application? Anyway...

Please be sure to update us in 6 months or so because I'd love to hear if you're still on this "I love Touro sooo much" campaign.