Paper Folding

[pudge123]

Good point for the most part, but misisng 15 vs missing 0 takes you from a 30 down to around a 24, assuming that they aced everything else on the PAT.


Sorry man, I can't tolerate any cheating at all! Not even a little, integrity is everything to me and it is a very important trait to possess as a professional.

I am much older probably then a lot of you guys. I am married and have a child and currently trying to get into dental school. I am an accountant for a big accountancy firm.

Throughout my professional career, I met a lot of people who take little "shortcuts" to help them get by. If I told on every person for every little "trivial" thing they did, then I would have no colleagues or friends. You are right integrity is very important for a professional but in the real world, it is not very prevalent (if your definition is cheating on angle questions, which probably 7 out of 15 are easily answered without a measuring tool). I have some dentist and doctors as clients and you will be surprised what they do to make a little extra cash. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it really a big deal? Not really. All I'm saying that in the business world (and believe me healthcare is a business) you need all the friends you can get to help you network, start finding patients, etc. Just like in the kindergarten playground, the kid who taddle tales on the other kid for eating the extra cookie has no friends.

Your obviously, a bright girl and after you finish dental school and whatever specialty you want to go into, you will see what I am talking about. Take this from an old man.

P.S. General Dentists definitely make more money than GPs in my opinion.

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[pine88]

Cheating intentionally is one thing - misunderstanding the rules is another. I bet some of those people didn't realize they were cheating. God that would suck so bad to have your whole test scrapped because of a mistake that probably didn't help you much anyway.

I think that is partially ADAs fault for being unclear. If I were reading those rules on my own during my test, I wouldn't have considered paper a "measuring device" I would have thought it applied only to things brought in to the test area (as it says), not things that were given to you IN the test area.

I agree, intentionally cheating on something as important as the DAT is bad...but ruining people's chances because of a mistake seems harsh.

 

[Uracil]

My Kaplan instructor told us (the class) to use our ID's to compare angles on the DAT like he did. He got a 21 or something on it. We told him that wasn't allowed and he said he didn't know! You see, not that many people actually knows.

 

[HOTTY]

I am much older probably then a lot of you guys. I am married and have a child and currently trying to get into dental school. I am an accountant for a big accountancy firm.

Throughout my professional career, I met a lot of people who take little "shortcuts" to help them get by. If I told on every person for every little "trivial" thing they did, then I would have no colleagues or friends. You are right integrity is very important for a professional but in the real world, it is not very prevalent (if your definition is cheating on angle questions, which probably 7 out of 15 are easily answered without a measuring tool). I have some dentist and doctors as clients and you will be surprised what they do to make a little extra cash. Is it ethical? Probably not. Is it really a big deal? Not really. All I'm saying that in the business world (and believe me healthcare is a business) you need all the friends you can get to help you network, start finding patients, etc. Just like in the kindergarten playground, the kid who taddle tales on the other kid for eating the extra cookie has no friends.

Your obviously, a bright girl and after you finish dental school and whatever specialty you want to go into, you will see what I am talking about. Take this from an old man.

P.S. General Dentists definitely make more money than GPs in my opinion.

I am kind of confused by your take. What exactly are you saying? I should forget about integrity because it is fading out in our society anyway? According to your post, eventually bad things will become more and more acceptable, until we get to the point that everything is a scam. It looks like this is a social issue we will each have to deal with, in some form, sooner or later. Where do you as an individual draw the line? Shouldn't we as future professionals hold integrity dear?

-Maybe I think this is more than just a "silly little shortcut", it was cheating on the DAT. The ADA was sure worried about that "silly little shortcut".

It was a really hard decision for me guys, but I again I know that we (the people involved) have all learned a valuable lesson having gone through it.

I don't mind the criticism. I do appreciate all of your viewpoints.
Thanks

 

[stosh]

he's saying you don't have any friends because u are a tattle tail...... and no one likes a tattle tail... with scores of 20++++ u should have gotten that...

that is my impression of what he said..... thats not me talking .. i am just saying what i got out of the letter... i wouldn't say those things b/c im not like that and i know there are people out there who would tell on me if i did...

 

[HOTTY]

he's saying you don't have any friends because u are a tattle tail...... and no one likes a tattle tail... with scores of 20++++ u should have gotten that...

that is my impression of what he said..... thats not me talking .. i am just saying what i got out of the letter... i wouldn't say those things b/c im not like that and i know there are people out there who would tell on me if i did...

I wasn't sure if his point was that I won't have friends or if we as a society are going progressively downward?

I don't want friends who don't have integrity, so I guess I will have none.

 

[busdent]

I wasn't sure if his point was that I won't have friends or if we as a society are going progressively downward?

I don't want friends who don't have integrity, so I guess I will have none.

but since you're hot, you'll have a lot of guy friends....

 

[busdent]

My Kaplan instructor told us (the class) to use our ID's to compare angles on the DAT like he did. He got a 21 or something on it. We told him that wasn't allowed and he said he didn't know! You see, not that many people actually knows.

hi uragirl, what you been up to?

 

[HOTTY]

You may disagree with me on my past actions, and that is fine. At least hear me out with this last example.

We all know dental school is ultra competitive. Classes are always ranked and the top 30 percent or so apply for specialty. In dental school the difference between #30 and 31 is very small. What would you do if you couldn't go on to specialize because a few guys cheated on an exam and you knew it?

It is a different situation I know, but it is still sticky.

 

[WSDriller]

I have thoroughly enjoyed this thread. It has kept me pretty entertained through what I thought was going to be a boring day. It's like a car wreck. I just can't look away. Keep it going. I am going to In-n-Out Burger but I will return to see if any more punches are thrown.

 

[HOTTY]

WSdrilller,

Did UNLV explain why you got a reject from them? Strange that Case and AZ would interview you but not UNLV. They all seem to operate about the same.


I agree its about time we had a great thread. Nice work guys.

 

[WSDriller]

Unfortunately, I scored a 16 on the QR section of DAT. I guess they require a minimum 17 on all sections. All other sections were 20+. Oh well.

 

[HOTTY]

Sorry, that hurts. I thought case was the same way, but I know someone who interviewed there with a 16 in QR. (I guess you will too)

Go figure. grab me a burger will ya

 

[Lemming]

I too am someone who might be considered more seasoned in this forum. I don't know if I agree with what pudge said, as it seems a little defeatist to me. I'm not sure if he was saying that because everyone is doing it, it is ok, or if he is just saying that you have to thicken your skin a little and sometimes take it for the team. If the latter is true, then he is right. Hotty you have seen the reaction that your actions, which may or may not have been justified, have evoked. I work in a field where I many times run into situations that I consider unethical. However, there is a time and a place to announce the things that you see. The bottom line is, a select few will praise you for your integrity, while the rest of us realize that we are not perfect, and could easily have been on the other end of the stick. So I think what pudge was getting at is that you need to pick your battles wisely, and realize who your audience is when you announce your actions. You definitely do not want to be labeled a "tattle-tale", because you cannot garner respect or credibility in that way. Make sure your motivations for such actions are altruistic, and not a knee-jerk reaction based on self-preservation and you will be fine. Does this clarify anything, or just muddle it even more?

 

[DentalBoarder]

IMO, Hotty, you seem more like a right wing ultra conservative than anything, especially a leader. Leadership involves a degree of tact, and from reading about this situation it appears you have none. I agree with you that integrity is of the utmost importance, but I feel as though you took it to the extreme. I mean going out of your way to possibly ruin someone's (or mutiple person's) chances of getting into dental school just because they used their hands, paper or whatever for help with the angle section is downright cruel.

Are you even sure that these people knew they were cheating? What if some of them honestly didn't know? And you feel completely at peace with yourself (on your high horse)...that is astonishing to me.

Gotta agree. I dont care that you dont care, UGGO, but that IS cruel. Maybe someone should report that you were looking around during the test. Plus, I didn't know that using your fingers was cheating. There should be some kind of warning about this.

 

[stosh]

like i said before cheaters will eventually get caught.. and if they had to cheat on the PAT inorder to get into dental school more than likely their secret of having poor perceptual ability most likely would have been found out in that 4 year period... having piss poor perceptual ability is not something you can hide for too long when you are working with teeth... but this discussion is not about the future... because we already know they wont have the chance to apply at the end of dental school because you told on them today and they wont be going....

 

[HOTTY]

Good advice, I appreciate that. Being labeled a tattle tale was a thought I considered beforehand. I was okay with that. I agree, you definitely need to pick battles. This was one I needed to pick.

 

[HOTTY]

Gotta agree. I dont care that you dont care, UGGO, but that IS cruel. Maybe someone should report that you were looking around during the test. Plus, I didn't know that using your fingers was cheating. There should be some kind of warning about this.

Who said I was looking around during the test? You need to go back and read the posts if you are going to have a take. They told me beforehand about their srategy, and they each confirmed it to me afterward.

UGGO?

 

[WSDriller]

So Hotty, what's the latest and these who were the so-called "cheaters"? Do they have to retake the DAT? Reapply next year? Or what?

 

[stosh]

unless you have eyes on the back of your head its not possible to see what is going on when you are facing a computer screen taking a test.... not to mention seeing all this when you are in a testing cubicle....

 

[HOTTY]

From what I understand, they have to wait 2 years to re-take. The whole thing happened at the end of June. The investigation concluded or was reported to them today. I am still gathering details from the guys. Some penalties seem to be different between the guys though. One told me he could take it next summer, another told me he had to wait 2 years.

I think that for sure one of them has changed his mind on dental school altogether.

 

[HOTTY]

unless you have eyes on the back of your head its not possible to see what is going on when you are facing a computer screen taking a test.... not to mention seeing all this when you are in a testing cubicle....

Where did all this come from about me keeping an eye on them at the testing center?
I wasn't there, I didn't spy on them. They told me. Read the posts if you are going to have such a strong opinion about this.

 

[busdent]

From what I understand, they have to wait 2 years to re-take. The whole thing happened at the end of June. The investigation concluded or was reported to them today. I am still gathering details from the guys. Some penalties seem to be different between the guys though. One told me he could take it next summer, another told me he had to wait 2 years.

I think that for sure one of them has changed his mind on dental school altogether.

how do you know these guys? and how do you know what the results are ? This is a serious issue and I am sure ADA is not going to tell you what deal was offered to what individual.

also, how did you know that these guys cheated?

 

[HOTTY]

All of the info has come from their mouths, including today's decision from the ADA.

These guys are classmates, some I grew up with others I have known for all of undergrad.

 

[busdent]

All of the info has come from their mouths, including today's decision from the ADA.

These guys are classmates, some I grew up with others I have known for all of undergrad.

wow, so they actually told you what lies ahead for them knowing the fact that you pretty much ruined everything for them?

 

[BenignDMD]

All of the info has come from their mouths, including today's decision from the ADA.

These guys are classmates, some I grew up with others I have known for all of undergrad.

You grew up with some of these guys and turned them in?!? Sleep with the fishes bitches

 

[pine88]

My questions:
When they told you before hand, did you discuss the fact that it was cheating?

Did you let them know before the fact that you would be morally obligated to turn them in?

Do they know you did it, or was this all anonymous?

Plus Hotty and Stosh you keep going back to the fact that it's wrong to cheat, which few people are disputing. What people keep commenting on, which you keep skipping over, is the fact that it could have been unintentional

 

[HOTTY]

Yes, I think the whole situation sounds more harsh on here than it really was. They are still my good friends, one of the guys told me he wanted to tell on himself but didn't have the courage. He said he would have felt like he was living a lie at D school. He is glad that I prompted the invesitgation.

Believe it or not, some people aren't good at supressing the guilt that come with untruthful actions. He won't be heading to d school this year, but he feels like a huge monkey came off of his back.

I would want my friend to prompt the same thing also, if couldn't do it myself.

 

[HOTTY]

My questions:
When they told you before hand, did you discuss the fact that it was cheating?

Did you let them know before the fact that you would be morally obligated to turn them in?

Do they know you did it, or was this all anonymous?

Plus Hotty and Stosh you keep going back to the fact that it's wrong to cheat, which few people are disputing. What people keep commenting on, which you keep skipping over, is the fact that it could have been unintentional

Yes
Yes
and Yes they know it was me.

All of us knew going into the test that it was wrong to do it. We had called the ADA and asked about the definition of "measuring devices". Some of the guys didn't think it was a big deal going in, but afterward, when they did so well (we are talking really high 20's) hints of guilt came.

I did it mainly for one of the friends I grew up with, I had to help them. I would be a total bad friend if I didn't help them. and yes it did help them.

 

[pine88]

lol. by the time I write my message there are 3 new posts and the questions are outdated.

Anyway, calling up to check if something is cheating and doing it anyway ... naughty naughty.

I still don't think I would have turned them in, but I can see why you did. It must have been a hard choice.

 

[Uracil]

hi uragirl, what you been up to?

hi busdent, how's everything going for you? I hope well. I'm still here, waiting for some interviews, if any

 

[HOTTY]

I don't think this john elway fan knew what he was getting when he started this thread.

I have never seen a thread blow up this way so fast. over 600 views in one day!

 

[Uracil]

Yes, I think the whole situation sounds more harsh on here than it really was. They are still my good friends, one of the guys told me he wanted to tell on himself but didn't have the courage. He said he would have felt like he was living a lie at D school. He is glad that I prompted the invesitgation.

Believe it or not, some people aren't good at supressing the guilt that come with untruthful actions. He won't be heading to d school this year, but he feels like a huge monkey came off of his back.

I would want my friend to prompt the same thing also, if couldn't do it myself.

With friends like you, who needs enemies?

 

[hgfdsa]

Yes, I think the whole situation sounds more harsh on here than it really was. They are still my good friends, one of the guys told me he wanted to tell on himself but didn't have the courage. He said he would have felt like he was living a lie at D school. He is glad that I prompted the invesitgation.

Believe it or not, some people aren't good at supressing the guilt that come with untruthful actions. He won't be heading to d school this year, but he feels like a huge monkey came off of his back.

I would want my friend to prompt the same thing also, if couldn't do it myself.

is this the bizarro world forum?

 

[Bugab00]

Man I'd feel bad to have you as a friend. To do that to people you know well is just astounding to me. I've done some things that weren't so ethical in my day, and seen some things that were bad, but to absolutely ruin someone's future over using his fingers on the DAT for a few problems just reeks. That is not how you do a friend. What would you do if, as a dentist, you saw a dentist blow up an invoice to insurance? Are you going to report him? We all do things that bend/break rules once in a while, no one is perfect. You are no exception.

I also hope they dont seek revenge for this, considering you pretty much decimated their dreams. People get killed for less. Or they may kill themselves depending on how devastated they are.

 

[dddsmack]

wow a contraversial thread without a post form dsmack!

I am shocked.


After thoroughly reading all these posts, I agree with what hotty did.

I am sure she isn't here to make friends or even get confirmation that what she did was right. I am impressed, hotty, you are the salt of the earth!

These other examples aren't even the same, don't listen to them.

 

[Lemming]

wow a contraversial thread without a post form dsmack!

I am shocked.


After thoroughly reading all these posts, I agree with what hotty did.

I am sure she isn't here to make friends or even get confirmation that what she did was right. I am impressed, hotty, you are the salt of the earth!

These other examples aren't even the same, don't listen to them.

You just want Hotty to pass you

 

[Envision]

All of the info has come from their mouths, including today's decision from the ADA.

These guys are classmates, some I grew up with others I have known for all of undergrad.

Perhaps i misunderstood the situation, but here is how i see it. these friends of yours, their only obvious mistake was that they told a person like you. However, this does not suggest they were aware that they were cheating. If you feel snitching on your friends for a mistake they were potentially unaware of is the right thing to do, then we don't see things eye to eye. I say this because many people here on SDN (as demonstrated today) was not even aware of the PAT rule. Also, can you honestly say throughout your entire life you never cheated? never copied a hw assignment...never asked a friend who already took an exam what kindof questions the teacher asked? bc these are all forms of cheating...and could result in the cheater recieving an F. but who actually snitches on their classmate for copying a sheet of hw and permanantly damaging their academic career? A leader? a leader must access the situation and the degree of the crime and match it with the appropriate punishment. I'm not sure you did that. these are all varying degrees of the cheating similar to the situation you brought up. if you've never cheated, then fine. If you have, then i hope you don't believe in karma. my 2cent.

 

[Bugab00]

I'm sorry but i dont believe some of your last posts. Nobody calls ADA and asks if it's cheating and then tells everyone he's gonna do it and then does it. What's the point of asking ADA? You can ask at the prometric center. You may have called, but I dont believe they did. Think about the conversation:

Your buddies: Is using fingers cheating?

ADA: Yes

Your buddies: OK, click.

Your buddies: Well, although i now have full knowledge that this is cheating, I am still going to cheat, and since you're such a hotty, ill tell you all about it, that way people will know I cheated, knew about it, and hope to get caught. I will also ask the prometric center if this is cheating, and if they say yes, ill tell them im gonna do it. Hopefully you will turn me in, because I am not worthy of D school.

Give me a break

 

[Lidopaine82]

You may disagree with me on my past actions, and that is fine. At least hear me out with this last example.

We all know dental school is ultra competitive. Classes are always ranked and the top 30 percent or so apply for specialty. In dental school the difference between #30 and 31 is very small. What would you do if you couldn't go on to specialize because a few guys cheated on an exam and you knew it?

It is a different situation I know, but it is still sticky.

top 30 percent? good luck to those who aren't top 10%. when you're in dental school you'll find out that it is a long shot for the non top 10.

 

[HOTTY]

Perhaps i misunderstood the situation, but here is how i see it. these friends of yours, their only obvious mistake was that they told a person like you. However, this does not suggest they were aware that they were cheating. If you feel snitching on your friends for a mistake they were potentially unaware of is the right thing to do, then we don't see things eye to eye. I say this because many people here on SDN (as demonstrated today) was not even aware of the PAT rule. Also, can you honestly say throughout your entire life you never cheated? never copied a hw assignment...never asked a friend who already took an exam what kindof questions the teacher asked? bc these are all forms of cheating...and could result in the cheater recieving an F. but who actually snitches on their classmate for copying a sheet of hw and permanantly damaging their academic career? A leader? a leader must access the situation and the degree of the crime and match it with the appropriate punishment. I'm not sure you did that. these are all varying degrees of the cheating similar to the situation you brought up. if you've never cheated, then fine. If you have, then i hope you don't believe in karma. my 2cent.

I think you are starting to understand integrity, No I haven't done anything that could result in acedemic punishment and an F.

And yes I called, and then one of my buddies didn't believe, so he called. All of us were there.

 

[Bugab00]

Also, since you were told beforehand by them that they were going to cheat, the least you could have done is to tell them that you would turn them in if you found out they did. Instead, you kept your mouth shut knowing they were gonna use these methods, and only confronted them afterwards. You make a lousy friend, and a less than respectable member of the corlionne family, because as we all know, you never take sides with anyone against the "family". Never. Forget that last part.

 

[pine88]

I still bet doing that would have just changed their scores a point or two if at all. And if they are at say 27, I don't think schools judge a 25 much different than a 27.

 

[WSDriller]

I don't think this john elway fan knew what he was getting when he started this thread.

I have never seen a thread blow up this way so fast. over 600 views in one day!

Amazing, Jlway began this post at 8:00 am this morning, probably left for work and has not checked back in. No idea what a rainstorm this has caused.

I'm with bugab00 on this though. I'm having a hard time believing the sequence of the events.

 

[HOTTY]

Also, since you were told beforehand by them that they were going to cheat, the least you could have done is to tell them that you would turn them in if you found out they did. Instead, you kept your mouth shut knowing they were gonna use these methods, and only confronted them afterwards. You make a lousy friend, and a less than respectable member of the corlionne family, because as we all know, you never take sides with anyone against the "family". Never. Forget that last part.

Wow, keep making up facts about this issue, it helps you make your point better.

 

[HOTTY]

Sorry guys, I am heading out. It has been fun defending myself for a few hours. But now you can go ahead and talk about me while I am gone, keep making up facts about how it all went down and call me a bad friend, I will still sleep great tonight.

Oh and yes there is a difference between missing a few questions and missing 10-15.

Good Night Now

 

[pine88]

well, I guess she's gone but I was going to ask her...

Hotty - why did you edit out your original post?

Originally Posted by HOTTY View Post
The ADA doesn't allow you to use anything as a measuring device on the PAT. I know of many people who held pencils, fingernails and tracings up to the screen during various parts of the PAT. This is flat out cheating. Perceptual ability is all about the mind, if you measure or trace or put your hand to the screen at all you are cheating.

I feel strongly about this beacuse there are many at my school who used measuring devices during their test and did better than I. They are cheaters and I reported everyone of them to the ADA and they are reviewing the video from the center about each test.

Warning don't do it!

is now only

Warning don't do it!

 

[Lemming]

Wait, you didn't post a response to my brand new not so controversial thread yet.

 

[Lemming]

Good question pine...I hadn't noticed that. But, I think we've beaten this thread to death for tonight anyway.

 

[Uracil]

This entire situation sounds just really weird to me. I understand all the stuff about integrity, etc you are talking about, but give me a break.
I am starting to think I don't want to be friends with anyone in dental school after hearing all these crazy stories on SDN, no wonder all my best friends have nothing to do with the dental/medical field.