Parent has high income, but they aren't supporting me

[WorldIsFlat]

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I have to admit that some attitudes of entitlement displayed by some people here are quite shocking to me, is it the cause of generation gap? 25 years ago, when I came here with nothing but a dream and a few clothes as a foreign student, it had never crossed my mind to ask my upper middle class parents in my birth country to sell their apartment or take out their savings to support my graduate study here. With only my minimum grad student stipend, my wife and I had to work in basic laboring, waiting tables, dogsitting and babysitting to earn some extra cash. We saved every penny for her grad school tuition, and eventually pulled ourselves through the grad schools.

We did NOT start with 300K income 25 years ago, and we worked hard to secure financial independence; and yes, we did maintain a frugal life style even with that high income now. We held hands of our children to help them learn to walk, to grow and to mature. Now it is time for them to take their own responsibilities in pursuing their own dreams, and they still can count on us for our support.

My advice to some future physicians here: wake up, smell the coffee and GROW UP.

 

[700825]

Lol extravagant maybe but having an expensive car does not inherently make you selfish or greedy. Thanks for the laugh though.

Considering your repeated attempts to mock, insult, and belittle me solely because you disagree with me, I'm thinking I want no part of whatever value system you ascribe to. Notice how numerous other users and myself were able to have an adult conversation, despite our disagreement? Maybe try that before lecturing others on morality...

 

[goatmed]

I could not find any information on student debt vs parental income for medical school, but the figure below seems to suggest being in the third or highest income quartiles (top 50% of income) makes you more likely to rack up les than $20,000 in debt during your undergraduate career than being dependent (on average) while being in the lowest two quartiles of family income makes you less likely to have under $10,000 in debt BUT also less likely to have over $20,000 in debt than independent students (on average.)

It seems that as far as independent students go, a larger proportion are without debt or with low debt than the lowest two quartiles but a larger proportion than any of the aforementioned groups is on high debt (>$30,000.) I have no idea if this has something to do with who ends up being independent in the first place. I could also just be reading too much into this graph.

(source)

 

[Kr#36]

I respectfully disagree with you. There is more to patient care than just having stats and numbers. Those with the highest stats do not necessarily provide the best patient care. Many of those in the lower SES are also minority groups. They bring a much needed cultural perspective to the medical field and that perspective as well as their difficult upbringing will help better connect with their patients and know what are the right questions to be asking. This is not only restricted to minorities, there are also plenty of White Americans that also suffer through poverty that also bring a needed quality to the medical field of the social constraints their patients maybe facing.

This is why the medical field is such a team based profession, not everyone will be the best at everything and because of that we work together as a team relying on the expertise and life experiences of our colleagues to provide the best patient care.

Definitely agree with this, just not in terms of aid because I think it’s impossible to fairly judge those qualities you listed vs another applicant.

 

[buckoh24]

Im in a similar situation but my parents income is about 1/3-1/2 of yours but the thing is that they have 1 kid who just started college and put my sister and I through college (I graduated in 2017, she did in 2015) so its not like they can just throw money around at all. I filed as an independent and my parents have already told all of us that they will help in undergrad but we are completely on our own for grad school/law school/med school. And Ive been living independently over my gap year and they arent contributing but I know their income may diminish my need-based scholarship chances. But I think they adjust according to how many siblings are in college also.

 

[Dr. Meliodas]

Definitely agree with this, just not in terms of aid because I think it’s impossible to fairly judge those qualities you listed vs another applicant.

I agree that it would be difficult to distinguish between two applicants with similar backgrounds, but not for those from polar opposite backgrounds which is what this post is about. For the majority of cases someone coming from a family that makes 300k a year is not going to need as much aid as someone who comes from a family making 20K a year. And as I mentioned probably very early in the thread - for those rarer circumstances where the student has been completely cut off from their family (i.e. have a terrible relationship, does not speak with his parents and the parents are completely unwilling to help their child ) I would hope an exception to the "need-based" scholarship be made in this instance. But of course, I am not sure how often this happens.

 

[OchemOficionado]

Definitely agree with this, just not in terms of aid because I think it’s impossible to fairly judge those qualities you listed vs another applicant.

Life isn’t fair. It isn’t impossible to take one’s obstacles and life experiences into account. There are committees that do this every day and they should be commended for attempting to do the “impossible”. They are literally only helping people.

Ignoring all that was mentioned in the post you quoted isn’t a fair way to determine who needs aid either. The distinction of need based aid was created for a reason. You’re acting as if there is no merit based aid and the smart well off kids are being oppressed by not receiving all the free aid out there.

 

[siliso]

Did y’all catch the point that the school knows most people will be financing their own education regardless? And that poor folks are not for the most part getting free rides? It’s a method of triage for limited resources.

If you want to say it’s not fair, then I say it’s not fair that some people are born poor either. We’ve all got problems.

 

[priormatt]

I don't think most schools need it before admitting, but most schools let you know that you won't get need based aid without giving them your parents info.

yes exactly! I am also trying to say that. Thanks!

 

[Kr#36]

Life isn’t fair. It isn’t impossible to take one’s obstacles and life experiences into account. There are committees that do this every day and they should be commended for attempting to do the “impossible”. They are literally only helping people.

Ignoring all that was mentioned in the post you quoted isn’t a fair way to determine who needs aid either. The distinction of need based aid was created for a reason. You’re acting as if there is no merit based aid and the smart well off kids are being oppressed by not receiving all the free aid out there.

The whole “life isn’t fair” thing is exactly my point. Everyone comes from different backgrounds with different obstacles. I don’t really care about that, only results.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Considering your repeated attempts to mock, insult, and belittle me solely because you disagree with me, I'm thinking I want no part of whatever value system you ascribe to. Notice how numerous other users and myself were able to have an adult conversation, despite our disagreement? Maybe try that before lecturing others on morality...

Maybe you should attempt to realize that calling anyone selfish, immoral, or greedy simply by the car they drive makes you and your opinions look immature and juvenile. I am not attempting to belittle you, I am laughing because there is an extreme disconnect in your logic and I find it funny.

Nice way to change the subject though, by trying to make me into the big, bad bully.

 

[LizzyM]

I agree that it would be difficult to distinguish between two applicants with similar backgrounds, but not for those from polar opposite backgrounds which is what this post is about. For the majority of cases someone coming from a family that makes 300k a year is not going to need as much aid as someone who comes from a family making 20K a year. And as I mentioned probably very early in the thread - for those rarer circumstances where the student has been completely cut off from their family (i.e. have a terrible relationship, does not speak with his parents and the parents are completely unwilling to help their child ) I would hope an exception to the "need-based" scholarship be made in this instance. But of course, I am not sure how often this happens.

That was the whole plot (what there was of a plot) of the novel and movie Love Story. Preppy guy from a Boston family with a driveway a quarter mile long is estranged from his father after marrying a beautiful and talented pianist from a blue-collar family. He gets laughed out of the finacial aid office because of his family's wealth. Preppy works odd jobs, his wife works, they brown bag sandwiches while he attends law school. People cried at the end but not because of the money.

 

[700825]

Maybe you should attempt to realize that calling anyone selfish, immoral, or greedy simply by the car they drive makes you and your opinions look immature and juvenile. I am not attempting to belittle you, I am laughing because there is an extreme disconnect in your logic and I find it funny.

Nice way to change the subject though, by trying to make me into the big, bad bully.

I hope you see the irony...

In my opinion/by my moral system, having a 300k-1 million dollar car, while leaving your family to take on debt falls within the bolded parts of the below definitions.

Selfish: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Greedy: having or showing an intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth or power.

If you disagree/have a different value system that is fine. Feel free. I'm not wasting anymore time on what is clearly a useless discussion at this point.

 

[OchemOficionado]

The whole “life isn’t fair” thing is exactly my point. Everyone comes from different backgrounds with different obstacles. I don’t really care about that, only results.

Got it. Well, at least you admit that you don’t care about life circumstances that hinder some people’s opportunities and only want to help those that are already ahead (generally). As someone stated earlier, it isn’t simply grades that makes someone a great physician, but who cares about that, right?

I guess I just can’t wrap my head around your stance because 1. it’s not that the majority in that group even need the help and 2. the fact that need based aid takes NOTHING from merit based aid, but somehow it needs to be done away with.

 

[Kr#36]

Got it. Well, at least you admit that you don’t care about life circumstances that hinder some people’s opportunities and only want to help those that are already ahead (generally). As someone stated earlier, it isn’t simply grades that makes someone a great physician, but who cares about that, right?

I guess I just can’t wrap my head around your stance because 1. it’s not that the majority in that group even need the help and 2. the fact that need based aid takes NOTHING from merit based aid, but somehow it needs to be done away with.

My points have nothing to do with what makes a great physician. We’re talking about aid to medical students. I also never said it “needs to be done away with.” Only that I think all aid would ideally be funneled into merit based awards. But I don’t make those decisions, and “need” based aid isn’t going anywhere so feel free to disagree and calm down a little.

As to the first paragraph, no, I don’t care about life circumstances. I care about results. I don’t think it’s that far fetched of an outlook to have.

 

[treatem-and-streetem]

I consider the fact that my parents helped fund my college a huge blessing and I will be paying them back with a nice check one day. They were not making over 100k until me and my brothers had moved out so they always made sacrifices for me. I am already on planning to set aside money for my kids so they don’t have to have the debt from undergrad that I have. It’s all about perspective. No one is entitled to anything

 

[OchemOficionado]

My points have nothing to do with what makes a great physician. We’re talking about aid to medical students. I also never said it “needs to be done away with.” Only that I think all aid would ideally be funneled into merit based awards. But I don’t make those decisions, and “need” based aid isn’t going anywhere so feel free to disagree and calm down a little.

As to the first paragraph, no, I don’t care about life circumstances. I care about results. I don’t think it’s that far fetched of an outlook to have.

Yes, your point wasn’t about what you think makes a great physician, but it came up in the discussion. Hey, I wasn’t quoting you verbatim, but I did get the jist correctly that you think need based aid shouldn’t exist.

And yes, it is far fetched when you admit that you understand that life circumstances many times impact results. But let’s stop beating this horse.

 

[Foot Fetish]

Related question for anyone who may know the answer: What happens to my need-based financial aid package if I get married? It's currently covering a substantial part of my tuition, and I would hate to lose it. My spouse will only be making like $60K to support the two of us. Also, if I do keep getting the aid based on my parental income, would that prevent me from putting my spouse's income towards my debt/tuition? I feel like this might be seen as "double dipping" by some...but I vaguely remember reading that getting married won't effect my aid...Then again, what about the scenario where someone marries a millionaire? Maybe they evaluate it on a case by case basis?

 

[DBC03]

Related question for anyone who may know the answer: What happens to my need-based financial aid package if I get married? It's currently covering a substantial part of my tuition, and I would hate to lose it. My spouse will only be making like $60K to support the two of us. Also, if I do keep getting the aid based on my parental income, would that prevent me from putting my spouse's income towards my debt/tuition? I feel like this might be seen as "double dipping" by some...but I vaguely remember reading that getting married won't effect my aid...Then again, what about the scenario where someone marries a millionaire? Maybe they evaluate it on a case by case basis?

I think this is school specific. I was accepted to two schools that don't care about parental income based on my age, but DO include my spouse's income (around the same as what you mentioned). One still gave me fairly substantial aid - the other I'll find out about next weekend, but they have very little funding, regardless. Two other schools still require my parents' income AND My spouse's income. One, however, is extremely generous with merit aid, and I have no idea about the other as my parents refused to fill out the paperwork (when your "child" is over 35, it can be a bit tedious to fill out financial paperwork). Ultimately, what is required for aid will likely depend more on your age than your marital situation. And, unfortunately, if you are below the age threshold (or if there is no age threshold), then your spouse's income will be included as well.

 

[PhilzCoffeeAddict]

I'm going to add this, its is ROUGH to be a college-grad working professional today. With the constant rising cost of living, I don't know how anyone can afford to buy a car or home. I currently live in California and it is terrifying how expensive it is out here.


Adding this per the edit: I don't have any debt either... I can't imagine what it would be like to have to pay debt, a mortgage, and kids. What are we going to do??? 🙁

 

[LizzyM]

I'm going to add this, its is ROUGH to be a college-grad working professional today. With the constant rising cost of living, I don't know how anyone can afford to buy a car or home. I currently live in California and it is terrifying how expensive it is out here.

This is true. It has been noted that milennials are postponing marriage, home buying and having kids. This is taking a toll on American business as the economic stimulation that comes from young people spending money on stuff is not happening.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

I'm going to add this, its is ROUGH to be a college-grad working professional today. With the constant rising cost of living, I don't know how anyone can afford to buy a car or home. I currently live in California and it is terrifying how expensive it is out here.

That's very true for California. I'm working in Palo Alto right now, and I know I couldn't afford to live here on my salary. Hell, half the physicians I work with tell me they can barely afford to live here. I recently moved out of my parent's house, but while I lived with them it was definitely helping me save up to have some pocket money for medical school.

This is true. It has been noted that millennial are postponing marriage, home buying and having kids. This is taking a toll on American business as the economic stimulation that comes from young people spending money on stuff is not happening.

Report: Most popular kink among millennials is role-playing as a couple that owns a house

 

[DubbiDoctor]

This is true. It has been noted that milennials are postponing marriage, home buying and having kids. This is taking a toll on American business as the economic stimulation that comes from young people spending money on stuff is not happening.

My intuition is that with undergrad/professional school tuition as high it is, and being spent on administrators who don't teach or do research, a lot of the money is being spent really inefficiently, hampering the economy. I don't know for sure if tuition money is being squandered but it seems that way. Imagine if all this money spent on administrative fees went to products and services that made people's lives meaningfully better.

 

[PhilzCoffeeAddict]

Report: Most popular kink among millennials is role-playing as a couple that owns a house

giggity giggity 😉

 

[NITRAS]

Let's say with a $600k loan you are unfortunate enough to get a job where you are stuck making $200k/year with no raises ever. Let's assume with where you live, 40% of your money is gone in taxes right off the bat. In this very overstated scenario, you lose $80k to taxes... left with "only" $120k/year to pay the bills, so $10k cash per month.

Let's look at a pretty bad loan repayment option. Let's say you refinance it to 20 years, $600k, at 7% interest - we're assuming unsubsidized loans. Monthly payments would be $6117.11 for 20 years. If that was your repayment option, you have $3882.89 left after taxes and student loan payments both every month.
.

The point were you don't get raises is unrealistic. Also, your tax rates are off. Your effective federal tax rate is going to be closer to 25%-28% for federal taxes. If you live in a free state, your state taxes aren't too bad (Texas main taxes are property taxes, which can be minimized by living on inexpensive property). Again, I only know one person with such high debt load (he did chiropractor school and I think a Caribbean medical school).

Either way, you'd be better off with a career that didn't start you off with extravagant debt. If I only got into a school that would have landed me in 400k in debt, I wouldn't have gone. That's not going to be popular here. No one knows what will happen to physician salaries if you graduate. My wife and I paid off my loans ($120k) while I was a resident. I made a different decision coming out of residency.

I plan on helping my children out later, but if they they felt entitled, I'm not giving them a dime. It is my money. Life is hard for people who don't have gratitude and are entitled. I will do whatever I can to make sure they learn that lesson, even if it means letting them have pain.

 

[deev04]

I was accepted to two schools that don't care about parental income based on my age, but DO include my spouse's income (around the same as what you mentioned).

Can I ask which schools? I always see a few schools mentioned here and there (WashU, Harvard, Stanford come to mind), but I'm not there's ever been a master thread of which schools have an age cut off for considering parental income. Valuable information for nontrads/older students starting down this path.

 

[DBC03]

Can I ask which schools? I always see a few schools mentioned here and there (WashU, Harvard, Stanford come to mind), but I'm not there's ever been a master thread of which schools have an age cut off for considering parental income. Valuable information for nontrads/older students starting down this path.

Sure! One is UF - I can’t remember the cutoff - maybe 27 or 30, one was UCF - they never consider parental information. I was also waitlisted at NYU, and when you hit the ripe age of 35 you are finally considered independent. Wake Forest and USF ALWAYS include parental information. If I remember others (where I looked into the details), I’ll post more.


Sent from my iPad using SDN mobile

 

[KnuxNole]

How about teaching their child to be a decent, responsible human being?

I have the perfect example - one of my physician coworkers has a kid who's applying to med school right now. He's been waitlisted at every school he's interviewed at, and the reasons seem obvious to me even though I don't know the kid. The father told me the kid has a tantrum if he doesn't stay in a Marriott, and daddy usually flies him to his interviews because driving would just be too onerous. 🙄 We're talking less than six hour drives, by the way.

A little adversity builds character and responsibility. It sure would also be nice to have physicians that understand and have empathy for people who are struggling with money, especially when medical care in the US is pretty much unaffordable for everyone but the super rich.

Adversity usually either build up their character, or it makes them MORE selfish and entitled

I see both sides of the argument. If I had a kid that went to medical school, and I was financially able to support the cost, would I? Part of me would be tempted to, but the other part wants him/her to take responsibility. "Oh, daddy is paying for school, I can go party and not take my rotations seriously! I'll do the 5-year plan, he won't mind! Also I need to roll up to my White Coat Ceremony in a Ferrari with all Gucci".

 

[KnuxNole]

Also, I do like that people bring up the "adult children" terminology. This may be a cultural thing, but for some families, they can be in the late 20s and still be considered a child in their eyes. Hell, last year I turned 30(old I know!) and I was sitting at the "kids" table at Thanksgiving, as an attending.

 

[IlDestriero]

You're deliberately being obtuse. No one is arguing that the kid is entitled to their parents money. Do whatever you want with your money, as you said it's your money. However, to say that this decision says nothing about one's character is abjectly wrong by any but the most convoluted of moral systems. From your example alone:

Selfish: lacking consideration for others; concerned chiefly with one's own personal profit or pleasure.
Greedy: having or showing an intense and selfish desire for something, especially wealth or power.

I’m many things, but those adjectives aren’t any of them. How much money did I give to charity last year? How much of my care was essentially uncompensated? How about my time, my most precious resource? How many hundred thousand dollars a year do I give up to participate in education and support research? Selfish and greedy? Get real.

Children of parents of means have to learn to support themselves, learn how to stand on their own. They have to understand the real value of money. They have to come to terms with the fact that they are not necessarily going to have the same lifestyle of their parents, and that’s OK. That’s not selfish or greedy, it’s responsible parenting. One of the ways to teach that lesson is to limit your financial support and not give in to every want along the way. I’m much more likely to buy my kids a townhouse or some life experiences (hiking the Inca trail, semesters abroad, once in a lifetime opportunities, etc.) or give them seed money for a well planned business opportunity than give them my credit card and a free ride. I might happily pay their tuition bills, and I probably will as you can’t take it with you. However, the expectation that I or anyone with some wealth will or should pay for everything for their adult children is certainly very entitled. Why can’t they take on some debt? What’s wrong with that? Having some skin in the game changes your perspective. It’s another life lesson. Nothing is free. Maybe I’ll pay tuition, fees and board, and they’re responsible for housing and lifestyle expenses. That money has real value and opportunity cost. It doesn’t matter how much I have or what I’m spending it on. Adult children aren’t children, they’re adults. They will have already had a stable life of privilege, a premium primary education, and a free ride to college. There are many here on these boards that would kill for even one of those things. Helping your kids get ahead and encouraging their dreams is not the same as giving them anything they want and picking up the tab along the way.



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Il Destriero

 

[700825]

I’m many things, but those adjectives aren’t any of them. How much money did I give to charity last year? How much of my care was essentially uncompensated? How about my time, my most precious resource? How many hundred thousand dollars a year do I give up to participate in education and support research? Selfish and greedy? Get real.

Children of parents of means have to learn to support themselves, learn how to stand on their own. They have to understand the real value of money. They have to come to terms with the fact that they are not necessarily going to have the same lifestyle of their parents, and that’s OK. That’s not selfish or greedy, it’s responsible parenting. One of the ways to teach that lesson is to limit your financial support and not give in to every want along the way. I’m much more likely to buy my kids a townhouse or some life experiences (hiking the Inca trail, semesters abroad, once in a lifetime opportunities, etc.) or give them seed money for a well planned business opportunity than give them my credit card and a free ride. I might happily pay their tuition bills, and I probably will as you can’t take it with you. However, the expectation that I or anyone with some wealth will or should pay for everything for their adult children is certainly very entitled. Why can’t they take on some debt? What’s wrong with that? Having some skin in the game changes your perspective. It’s another life lesson. Nothing is free. Maybe I’ll pay tuition, fees and board, and they’re responsible for housing and lifestyle expenses. That money has real value and opportunity cost. It doesn’t matter how much I have or what I’m spending it on. Adult children aren’t children, they’re adults. They will have already had a stable life of privilege, a premium primary education, and a free ride to college. There are many here on these boards that would kill for even one of those things. Helping your kids get ahead and encouraging their dreams is not the same as giving them anything they want and picking up the tab along the way.



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Il Destriero

Fair enough. That was presumptuous on my part. My apologies.

 

[IlDestriero]

Lol extravagant maybe but having an expensive car does not inherently make you selfish or greedy. Thanks for the laugh though.

I think we have a socialist in here. Now I can’t even spend my money on myself.


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Il Destriero

 

[IlDestriero]

Getting back to the OP’s post, I don’t think most schools offer tremendous amounts of need based scholarships anyway, so you’re probably not missing out on much, and you’ve likely benefitted from their income over the years anyway, so if the money goes to kids from broken homes, welfare, etc. I’m sure you’d agree that’s fair.
As an aside, even with parents with significant income and assets, and an almost free ride from the .mil, I applied for a school scholarship established for military students which gave me ~4K a year to cover stipend money lost to taxes and the remainder of the COL not covered by the HPSP program. Don’t lose hope, there might still be something available for you if you go looking.


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Il Destriero

 

[Goro]

That was the whole plot (what there was of a plot) of the novel and movie Love Story. Preppy guy from a Boston family with a driveway a quarter mile long is estranged from his father after marrying a beautiful and talented pianist from a blue-collar family. He gets laughed out of the finacial aid office because of his family's wealth. Preppy works odd jobs, his wife works, they brown bag sandwiches while he attends law school. People cried at the end but not because of the money.

Medical school means never having to say you're sorry.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

However, the expectation that I or anyone with some wealth will or should pay for everything for their adult children is certainly very entitled. Why can’t they take on some debt? What’s wrong with that? Having some skin in the game changes your perspective. It’s another life lesson. Nothing is free. Maybe I’ll pay tuition, fees and board, and they’re responsible for housing and lifestyle expenses. That money has real value and opportunity cost. It doesn’t matter how much I have or what I’m spending it on. Adult children aren’t children, they’re adults. They will have already had a stable life of privilege, a premium primary education, and a free ride to college. There are many here on these boards that would kill for even one of those things. Helping your kids get ahead and encouraging their dreams is not the same as giving them anything they want and picking up the tab along the way.



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Il Destriero

I don't know how wealthy you are - 10 million+ net worth is what I consider to be very wealthy - but my argument for helping out your children with medical debt if you can, without sacrificing your own quality of life, is that no future physician should have to take on the level of debt that the system now requires. When you went to med school, it's unlikely you had to take on 400K in debt. And while debt concerns are dismissed with a cavalier attitude in this thread - can be paid off with one year's attending salary, not accounting for primary care pay or interest - many residents and young physicians face extraordinary levels of stress paying off their debt, struggling to buy a home or raise a family in their 30s. If parents of means help pay off the COA for their children, that will enable med schools to target their need-based aid to students from poor families, whose parents cannot help them even if they wanted to. This way we would establish a fairer, easier debt system - doctors work hard enough - more conducive to resident and young physician mental health, hopefully reducing stress, burnout and the terribly high rate of suicide among physicians.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

I don't know how wealthy you are - 10 million+ net worth is what I consider to be very wealthy - but my argument for helping out your children with medical debt if you can, without sacrificing your own quality of life, is that no future physician should have to take on the level of debt that the system now requires. When you went to med school, it's unlikely you had to take on 400K in debt. And while debt concerns are dismissed with a cavalier attitude in this thread - can be paid off with one year's attending salary, not accounting for primary care pay or interest - many residents and young physicians face extraordinary levels of stress paying off their debt, struggling to buy a home or raise a family in their 30s. If parents of means help pay off the COA for their children, that will enable med schools to target their need-based aid to students from poor families, whose parents cannot help them even if they wanted to. This way we would establish a fairer, easier debt system - doctors work hard enough - more conducive to resident and young physician mental health, hopefully reducing stress, burnout and the terribly high rate of suicide among physicians.

It seems that you're taking some things out of context. Nobody said that it could be paid off with a single years salary. I said that it was likely equivalent to a single years salary before interest.

Something that is a very large debt, like a house, is recommended to be 4-5x your annual income before interest.

Something that is not necessarily a large debt, like a car, is recommended to be about 25% of your annual income before interest.

Medical school is right in the middle of that, at between 1-1.5x your annual income before interest.

 

[Dr. Meliodas]

This thread just keeps bouncing from extremes. No parent regardless of how wealthy is required to or should pay for the complete cost of a medical education of their child. If they do great if they don't ehhh its fine. However, they should help out a bit, my previous suggestion was just covering the "expected" family contribution.

 

[siliso]

If you’d like to go even more off track, the most moral and charitable thing a wealthy parent could do is pay for the (probably non-medical) education of a poor person (or multiple poor persons) because their own kid who got into med school is going to be fine anyway.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

It seems that you're taking some things out of context. Nobody said that it could be paid off with a single years salary. I said that it was likely equivalent to a single years salary before interest.

Something that is a very large debt, like a house, is recommended to be 4-5x your annual income before interest.

Something that is not necessarily a large debt, like a car, is recommended to be about 25% of your annual income before interest.

Medical school is right in the middle of that, at between 1-1.5x your annual income before interest.

Interest rates on houses seem to be quite a bit lower than 7%, though. One solution to the debt problem, other than socializing medical school costs, is by having the government offer tuition loans at an interest rate at pegged to the rate of inflation.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

If you’d like to go even more off track, the most moral and charitable thing a wealthy parent could do is pay for the (probably non-medical) education of a poor person (or multiple poor persons) because their own kid who got into med school is going to be fine anyway.

Well, I'd argue that loyalty to and helping out family members is part of being a virtuous tradition. That idea has roots in both the West and the East - think Confucius

 

[lpp06]

Interest rates on houses seem to be quite a bit lower than 7%, though. One solution to the debt problem, other than socializing medical school costs, is by having the government offer tuition loans at an interest rate at pegged to the rate of inflation.

Interest rates and inflation are already linked, and lending institutions link the two to minimize their loss, not provide savings to the borrower. If a countries currencies inflates, monies lent out in the past become devalued, so interest rates are increased to make up for that devaluation. This is where variable rate loans come in. Only in the event that an economy's rate of inflation decreases or even enters a state of deflation, then interest rates will decrease.

Real dents in medical education debt won't be made until the cost to operate a school decreases. Even in a socialized system, the cost to educate a student will remain unchanged, the only thing that changes is the allocation of that cost and what the student sees. Society as a whole is still supporting a high cost. This of course gets into a philosophical/political discussion, but I think that it's important to point out that the high costs of educating a student is ultimately what is driving up the cost of medical education, not loans/interest rates.

 

[Microbug]

Nice straw man and ad hominen rolled into one. My argument was not that parents owe their kids paying for medical school or that OP is entitled to their parents money, my argument was that from the perspective of the parent it is morally commendable to contribute if you are capable, which OPs parents undeniably are.

I fail to understand how OP's parents contributing 10k or so to their medical education robs them of the experience of having to mange their finances. In fact, the only time one would notice a difference between managing loan money and their parents money is post residency. No one is suggesting OPs parents fund a lavish lifestyle...I am merely arguing that, one again, it would be morally commendable that OPs parents contribute an amount similar to the grant amount that OP will not be receiving due to their financial well being.

As for the anecdote, as someone who paid there way through undergraduate, I agree that this helps one gain valuable skills. However, we aren't talking about OP's parents refusing to pay for undergraduate, where through scholarships + work it is entirely possible to avoid crushing, high interest debt, we are talking about taking out less loans vs. taking out more loans.

I think your ego is ridiculously inflated if you think you can decide what is “morally commendable” for everyone else.

People have said this countless times so I’ll just say it again: (1) your parents don’t owe you **** and (2) if they want to live in a house made of gold rather than paying for your decision to go to med school, they have every right to do so without you waving your “morally commendable” protest flag over the people who raised you for ~2 decades.

Most people who make the moral argument are hypocrites. If you are truly committed to doing “morally commendable” actions, you would move to an underserved warzone after medical training.

 

[DubbiDoctor]

Interest rates and inflation are already linked, and lending institutions link the two to minimize their loss, not provide savings to the borrower. If a countries currencies inflates, monies lent out in the past become devalued, so interest rates are increased to make up for that devaluation. This is where variable rate loans come in. Only in the event that an economy's rate of inflation decreases or even enters a state of deflation, then interest rates will decrease.

Real dents in medical education debt won't be made until the cost to operate a school decreases. Even in a socialized system, the cost to educate a student will remain unchanged, the only thing that changes is the allocation of that cost and what the student sees. Society as a whole is still supporting a high cost. This of course gets into a philosophical/political discussion, but I think that it's important to point out that the high costs of educating a student is ultimately what is driving up the cost of medical education, not loans/interest rates.

I understand what you're saying but my point is, historically the rate of inflation is around 2%. So lenders need only to charge an average interest of around 2% to break even. Since med students - much like lannisters - almost always pay their debts, lenders are making huge profits off of them. The government doesn't have the same primary motive to profit, so I don't see why they can't charge interest at actually the rate of inflation each year, rather than charging interest 5 percentage points higher than the rate of inflation, making huge, almost guaranteed profits from physicians off of the scarcity of money.

 

[FlavivirusProtease]

I understand what you're saying but my point is, historically the rate of inflation is around 2%. So lenders need only to charge an average interest of around 2% to break even. Since med students - much like lannisters - almost always pay their debts, lenders are making huge profits off of them. The government doesn't have the same primary motive to profit, so I don't see why they can't charge interest at actually the rate of inflation each year, rather than charging interest 5 percentage points higher than the rate of inflation, making huge, almost guaranteed profits from physicians off of the scarcity of money.

Except the government is actually about to be in the red on medical student's loans, because of the fact that most doctors work for non-profits and are able to get their loans forgiven while making minimum payments for 10 years.

 

[700825]

I think your ego is ridiculously inflated if you think you can decide what is “morally commendable” for everyone else.

People have said this countless times so I’ll just say it again: (1) your parents don’t owe you **** and (2) if they want to live in a house made of gold rather than paying for your decision to go to med school, they have every right to do so without you waving your “morally commendable” protest flag over their head.

Most people who make the moral argument are hypocrites. If you are truly committed to doing “morally commendable” actions, you would move to an underserved warzone after medical training.

I guess I'm not allowed to have moral views because if I do that makes me arrogant...nice.

I believe that if parents have the means to better the financial situation of their children they should, but I clearly stated this as my viewpoint. I never advocated that parents should be forced to pay for their child's education, but rather only argued that I personally feel it is morally the right thing to do. You may have a different system of morals and that is fine.

And I have said countless times that there is no requirement for the parents to contribute. I have never once said that parents cannot do what they please with their money. In fact, I fully support the idea that people should be able to do what they want with their money.

To clarify my argument to avoid more straw manning: I personally believe one should help their family when possible. Many in this thread believe that the parents should not help, because their help because the child is an adult and should be independent. That is fine too. I also believe that if the roles were reversed, the parents needing help and the children being wealthy, I would argue that the children should contribute to help the parents. This is my belief based upon my moral system. You are free to have different beliefs based on your own moral system.

False dichotomy...just because one is not morally perfect, does not prohibit them for arguing for what they believe is right. If that were the case, no one would be able to criticize the moral decisions of others, which is most resoundingly not the case.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

many residents and young physicians face extraordinary levels of stress paying off their debt, struggling to buy a home or raise a family in their 30s

Please show me where young family practice (insert any low paying field here) physicians are struggling to buy homes or raise a family. Your statements are simply fabrication and scenarios that largely don't exist in real life.

 

[Avada Cadaver]

ITT- People from very clearly different cultural backgrounds clashing. Before everyone starts slinging insults perhaps brush up on your sociology.

I can almost guess who here grew up in a traditional western home vs those of intl/non-western culture. In the US the usual train of thought is, help your kid till they're 18, then they are usually on their own because they are independent adults or something along those lines. That's great and has it's own merits but as stated a couple times on here already, not everyone grew up that way and as such share that belief, and it doesn't make them entitled. I immigrated to the US and where I come from, parents do whatever they can for their children/family without regard to some magic age number. My parent's, and other immigrant relatives living in the US, have stated how bizarre it is to bring a child into this world then arbitrarily decide they are on their own, kicking them out of the house and leaving them to fend for themselves so to speak. They'd probably sell their house and give up everything if it meant my siblings and I could pursue our dreams. Likewise, I would never entertain the idea leaving them to fend for themselves when they are old, a common practice in the US.

Though biased as I am, I wouldn't call parents/individuals with different values amoral, and likewise I wouldn't insinuate those with non-western beliefs to be entitled.

 

[ChicagoBear]

I'm very fortunate that my parents are paying for my medical school. They are not in the $10mil+ category, but they are of the opinion - "Why wouldn't we? We own our large home free and clear, have his and her Lexus' in the garage that were bought for cash, several million at the bank/broker and we both have secure senior level good paying jobs."

It is not just for me, they also paid for my brother's undergraduate and graduate degrees - he is now an investment banker making more than many attending physicians. They don't want either of us to repay them, they want us to pay it forward with our kids whenever that time comes.

My parents were clear that this was a decision that they made knowing that some of their friends, all of whom are pretty successful, made totally different decisions. A few paid for undergrad and graduate school, many paid for undergrad only, some paid a fixed amount (often the amount of instate tuition), and a few paid nothing. One of the "nothings" actually included a bill for the next months rent in his kids 18th birthday card. My Dad joked that he better hope he dies young, because those kids are going to be picking his nursing home!

 

[Goro]

A lot of the posts in this thread remind me of the saying "Be nice to your kids; they're the ones who pick out your nursing home!"

 

[IlDestriero]

Except the government is actually about to be in the red on medical student's loans, because of the fact that most doctors work for non-profits and are able to get their loans forgiven while making minimum payments for 10 years.

Don’t bet on these forgiveness plans being in effect when you’re done with your training.
They weren’t designed to help out the 1 or 2 percenters who can actually afford to pay their debt. The government is headed for another trillion in debt, and debt forgiveness for high income earners is mighty low hanging fruit. I expect limits or income phase outs like we have already in the tax code.


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Il Destriero